Red Mages need some love

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

It's not that they wont, they really can't make RDM strong and have Verraise.

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Agree, which is why to me that spell should be restricted in some way, hence why I said they won't, they know that they can't do that

@Neela: Eh I suppose, in a way I could even live with it, but I don't think the community will

Well of course they do not want it overpowered but i see no reason why slight damage increases cannot be done.
People are forgetting that their are other jobs that offer more support then Red Mage and do more damage.

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Originally Posted by Maero

People are forgetting that their are other jobs that offer more support then Red Mage and do more damage.

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i don't think people care the number of utility-skills but the flexibility/mobility/insta advantage of an int based heal and if needed a 4-5x instant res in a row. since rdm is still the only cls which owns the necromancer title its more than good to go in balancing... its the only cls who acquired this title so far so what do u need more to see how "powerful" rdm support utility can be in direct comparison - its not always about dmg, dmg, dmg q.q...

My point is other jobs offer more support then that of RM and also have higher damage. RM's support is far less then that of Bard, Smn, Ninja and possibly drg.
This i do not consider balanced at all.
Insta raise is nice but in terms of raiding should not even be in the conversation as when you progress there is little to no need of it
That is why as well that many have suggested some changes to embolden.

I still think they should moderate the use of verraise in some ways, to avoid it beign too useful during prog, so to drop the argument of it beign what is blocking RDM power, after that they can do w/e they want to it either increase it's personal dmg or embolden,

I feel like I should mention that Verraise's usefulness is already put in check by RDM's pitiful MP regen options. If you're raising people left and right, and if Lucid's still on cooldown, you'll be next to useless in no time when you're out of MP. And if that many people are dying anyway, then you already have bigger problems. Do with that info what you will.

Agreed with both of you ^

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

It's not that they wont, they really can't make RDM strong and have Verraise.

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It's my opinion that Verraiase is being over valued as a utility skill. Summoner, for example, also has access to instant cast (through swiftcast) raise during battle, and just like with red mage, it's a dps loss for either job to use it. A red mage can indeed chain raise a fallen party, but that will generally leave the red mage without mana to actually put out damage, and if enough people died to make that needed, then you'll probably die to enrage in a raid environment anyway.

Honestly if we consider the toolkit, red mage and summoner have pretty similar abilities when it comes to support, and in every way, except for the niche case of needing to raise multiple party members, the summoner support tools are more powerful or more effective, and both jobs have similar mobility, red mage perhaps being slightly more mobile than summoner. If we take the devs at their word that how impacted a job is by raid mechanics and how much utility it provides should be the measure by which a job's potential DPS should be gauged, then the two jobs should be able to put out about the same amount of damage. At the moment, however, that is not the case with summoner dealing far more damage than red mage. Red mages need a buff, in my opinion, just to make them a fair job compared to the other two casters.

But if rdm would do same damage than summoner, why would you take summoner anymore. Summoner is literally most punishing job if you die. You can not use bahamut next 3 minutes because you need 2 aetherflow stacks and one for bahamut weaving. Losing aetherflow stacks and dreadwyrm stance is not nice either. When ever you die, you will always lose stacks, there is no good place to die die in summoners rotatio. Another point is that summoner can not save themselves with vercure or manaward like other casters. It is high risk, high reward job. Maybe small damage boost is fine, but should be still behind summoner.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

But if rdm would do same damage than summoner, why would you take summoner anymore. Summoner is literally most punishing job if you die. You can not use bahamut next 3 minutes because you need 2 aetherflow stacks and one for bahamut weaving. Losing aetherflow stacks and dreadwyrm stance is not nice either. When ever you die, you will always lose stacks, there is no good place to die die in summoners rotatio. Another point is that summoner can not save themselves with vercure or manaward like other casters. It is high risk, high reward job. Maybe small damage boost is fine, but should be still behind summoner.

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See also monk, and dragon if you die and have to build back up your job resources.

I don’t think the punishment for death should be a consideration for how much damage a job should do. Don’t die and you don’t have that issue.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I don’t think the punishment for death should be a consideration for how much damage a job should do. Don’t die and you don’t have that issue.

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If your mind goes like that let’s but it that way:
„Play another DD if u wanna make serious dmg.“

See where your arguments brought u? ;3

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Originally Posted by Neela

If your mind goes like that let’s but it that way:
„Play another DD if u wanna make serious dmg.“

See where your arguments brought u? ;3

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That doesn't work, simply because all jobs are expected to do competitive damage when paired up against one in similar gear and played at a similar level.

No job is balanced around death.

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Originally Posted by Neela

If your mind goes like that let’s but it that way:
„Play another DD if u wanna make serious dmg.“

See where your arguments brought u? ;3

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No, my point is there are two other melee jobs that are punished for dying, dragoon pretty heavily, that don't have their damage output increased to compensate for "maybe the player of this job will die"

As pointed out by Kabooa, the jobs should be balanced around playing at similar skill level and gear, not off how often the player of the job dies, and if two jobs offer similar levels of utility, and are impacted equally by raid mechanics (death is not a mechanic) then they ought to be doing similar levels of damage. However if another job is more heavily impacted by raid mechanics, and brings less utility (black mage, I'm looking at you) then it should be doing more damage than other jobs.

rdm should get "vercover" (but without losing any of its own Hp) => jack of all trades is intesified.., makes more sense to me

cant have the rdm with its utility (as it has now), do the same damage as a smn .. or blm

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

rdm should get "vercover" (but without losing any of its own Hp)

jack of all trades is intesified.., cant have the rdm with its utility do the same damage as a smn .. or blm

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VerFellcleave

VerTrickAttack

VerSwiftCast

VerGravity

VerEarthlyStar

a "tank"-like move is still missing in the jack of all trades repertoire..

VerHallowed Ground

Verphalanx

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Originally Posted by wereotter

See also monk, and dragon if you die and have to build back up your job resources.

I don’t think the punishment for death should be a consideration for how much damage a job should do. Don’t die and you don’t have that issue.

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Well with same argument you can say raise not have any value, because you dont need raise if nobody die.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Well with same argument you can say raise not have any value, because you dont need raise if nobody die.

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That's actually RDM's problem, yeah. It's main utility is useless if nobody dies, which nobody should.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

rdm should get "vercover" (but without losing any of its own Hp) => jack of all trades is intesified.., makes more sense to me

cant have the rdm with its utility (as it has now), do the same damage as a smn .. or blm

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Yup, can't have RDM objectively be SMN but weaker in every aspect, and be anywhere near SMN's damage.

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Originally Posted by Sayori

I feel like Red Mages get the low end of the stick after progression ends. I love to play red mage, but it makes me sad to ditch it after progression just because every other job contributes way more to the party.

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Bye Felicia.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Well with same argument you can say raise not have any value, because you dont need raise if nobody die.

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I already did say it’s an over valued utility skill. So, you’re right.

Just drop rdm potency a bit and give it more supoort to be a full support dps job like Bard ...

Blm should be the highest dps of the 3 casters
Smn bellow Blm (because they have supports skills)
Rdm last... but it would be the support/dps of the mages

I think thats how they should make the casters

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Originally Posted by Darkkos

Just drop rdm potency a bit and give it more supoort to be a full support dps job like Bard ...

Blm should be the highest dps of the 3 casters
Smn bellow Blm (because they have supports skills)
Rdm last... but it would be the support/dps of the mages

I think thats how they should make the casters

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Hybrid tax in my opinion is a dead concept. Ultimately, it should be player skill with the class which determines DPS.

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Originally Posted by Darkkos

Just drop rdm potency a bit and give it more supoort to be a full support dps job like Bard ...

Blm should be the highest dps of the 3 casters
Smn bellow Blm (because they have supports skills)
Rdm last... but it would be the support/dps of the mages

I think thats how they should make the casters

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RDM is already lower than bard in most instances. And you want it to be...even lower?

I think Red Mage, from a utility standpoint, needs a significant rework. The issue with Red Mage is that it doesn’t really have a defined role. I see the term “jack of all trades” getting thrown around, but what does that even mean in the context of FFXIV? Every job has one out of three specific roles. So within the game’s own framework, a jack of all trades type character can’t even really exist to begin with. Red Mage is first and foremost a damage dealer, yet their ability to perform that role is compromised due to them receiving “utility” in the form of a heal and a raise that functionally translates to very little. However, this doesn’t make them a jack of all trades, it just means they don’t have an identity due to being restricted by the very way the game functions.

If you want Red Mage to provide utility, it must work within the framework of the game itself. Giving Red Mage a bit of healing and low damage doesn’t make them a jack of all trades, it makes them bad at both healing and dealing damage. In other words, there needs to be a reason why, in a vacuum, Red Mage would want to use its utility. If you give Red Mage the ability to heal, it is true that there needs to be a tradeoff for that utility, but only if you actually use it. Their overall damage should not be crippled due to the presence of a utility that they may never use. And most importantly, if you have to trade off damage for utility in any scenario, it should at least be engaging in terms of gameplay to actually do. Right now it’s one button press probably accompanied by a disgruntled mumble.

As far as suggestions go, their identity as a proc based, fast paced caster should be maintained and applied to their utility. Vercure shouldn’t just be Cure, it should be Red Mage’s take on Cure. Perhaps give it a proc that, when used, will grant you white mana and perhaps boost the damage of your next white magic skill. Something to make it an interesting and most importantly impactful ability. Something similar should be done with Verraise.

Then again, I don’t play Red Mage so chances are I have no clue what I am talking about. Oh well

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Originally Posted by NewAgeDoom

Hybrid tax in my opinion is a dead concept. Ultimately, it should be player skill with the class which determines DPS.

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It's not so much a hybrid tax as a support tax. It's about the utility they bring vs the damage they do as opposed to being able to fill different roles.

There's a reason why Ninja and Dragoons are always desired despite doing lower personal dps over a Samurai who brings nothing BUT personal DPS. If they had the same damage potential as a Samurai, there would be zero reason to bring anything but.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It's not so much a hybrid tax as a support tax. It's about the utility they bring vs the damage they do as opposed to being able to fill different roles.

There's a reason why Ninja and Dragoons are always desired despite doing lower personal dps over a Samurai who brings nothing BUT personal DPS. If they had the same damage potential as a Samurai, there would be zero reason to bring anything but.

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Okay, but again, the support RDM brings does not justify its low damage. It's on the same damage tier as bard, therefore it should have the same level of support; it just doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

there would be zero reason to bring anything but.

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A NIN uses TA every fight. A DRG uses Disembowel and BA every fight. These abilities should always be seeing use.

If your RDM uses Verraise every fight there is something really wrong.

That's the problem - is it truly effective utility if you never make use of it? Or are they dead buttons?

Unrelated but I just saw this while reviewing the thread...

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Originally Posted by Neela

Potd, Eureka and the teased 4.3 Dragonball-Tower – that's what RDMs are actually made for..."Hi Necromancer!" - forget about raiding ;3

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Is this person real? This is like... offensive. This is a caricature of an internet troll except the scary part is they might be real.

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Originally Posted by Neela

Potd, Eureka and the teased 4.3 Dragonball-Tower – that's what RDMs are actually made for..."Hi Necromancer!" - forget about raiding ;3

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To which I say...

https://m.popkey.co/48b70c/J6OeA.gif

Seriously. Raiding is the only content where balance matters due to how low everything else is scaled. RDM being able to solo PotD doesn't make it overpowered except in one piece of content the devs haven't bothered to balance. Raiding is, essentially, how one progresses their character without waiting around on catch up patch. And when compared to any other support job, RDM simply doesn't. Furthermore, it is the only job where its support diminishes the better your group performs. Even during prog, Verraise is somewhat overrated since if you have enough deaths to take advantage of Verraise, you're probably going to wipe regardless. Therefore, SMN does the same job while offering far superior damage and utility.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Okay, but again, the support RDM brings does not justify its low damage. It's on the same damage tier as bard, therefore it should have the same level of support; it just doesn't.

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Oh, I agree RDM needs a damage buff as the only real support they bring every fight is Embolden and a couple "Oh crap" abilities. They should be adjusted to be a little above BRD/MCH levels, but shouldn't be pumping out the same damage as a BLM, for instance, as the person seemed to suggest with removing the "hybrid tax".

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Oh, I agree RDM needs a damage buff as the only real support they bring every fight is Embolden and a couple "Oh crap" abilities. They should be adjusted to me more around BRD/MCH levels, but shouldn't be pumping out the same damage as a BLM, for instance, as the person seemed to suggest with removing the "hybrid tax".

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Ah, I see. I apologize for the generalization and misunderstanding, just so used to people who both say what you said *and* defend the position that RDM is fine where it's at.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

RDM is already lower than bard in most instances. And you want it to be...even lower?

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Oh really? I didnt know rdm was already the lowest dps... Then dont lower the potency but make it a full support job , and lock out that dual cast verraise if thats one of the reason why we dont get more supports/dps (Swiftcast + Raise is more than enough)

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Originally Posted by Darkkos

Oh really? I didnt know rdm was already the lowest dps... Then dont lower the potency but make it a full support job , and lock out that dual cast verraise if thats one of the reason why we dont get more supports/dps (Swiftcast + Raise is more than enough)

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Sorry, I suppose I was pretty hostile. A lot of people assume RDM is really strong because they can see big numbers coming off of their spells, but a lot of things go into the job's overall dps that affect it: it has no DoT abilities, it has small burst phases with a big payoff phase if you use it right, and it has nothing that can capitalize on party bursts with. Not to mention that its core damage utility, embolden, doesn't even affect some of the heaviest hitting attacks in it's kit.

On the site that shall not be named, there are results for how every job ranks against each other for the whole tier.

If we're going to run with the idea that:
BLM=SAM
SMN=MNK
???=DRG
RDM=NIN

Then RDM needs to have a roughly equivalent support toolkit to NIN or BRD, like you said. I'm also in agreement with regards to verraise--the funniest thing is, I shouldn't even have to be, because dualcast verraise is an overestimated utility outside of bleeding-edge prog.

But why lower it's damage if they would add more support to the likes of Bard?
Red Mage IS currently lower damage then Bard and has less utility, they should at least boost it's damage regardless.

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Originally Posted by Maero

But why lower it's damage if they would add more support to the likes of Bard?
Red Mage IS currently lower damage then Bard and has less utility, they should at least boost it's damage regardless.

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I wasnt aware that rdm was that low.

Im a casual player and like Dualgunner said , in a casual group , rdm seems to be more than fine. I think the main problem is that , if they do give rdm potency boost, in casual group (And most of the player base are casual players) Rdm could be easily top dps and people will complain because the rotation of rdm is probably the easiest rotation of every jobs so , its easy to almost reach your full potential with really low learning curve.

I know now it has trouble to keep up with brd/nin in more hardcore group... And that doesnt make sense

But the classes are supposedly balanced with endgame in mind. I have never been one to care for fflogs but just look at it. It is very clear where Rdm stands for all content.
It really is that bad, lol. Heck even myself i consider myself very good at caster jobs and in this case RM and it is sad to see how far behind i am compaired to other jobs and those that also bring group utility.
Let's not forget how super simple some jobs were in AAR and yet had very good dps. We are far enough into this expansion that changes should have been made by now. Just a matter of my opinion of course

It's because FFXIV is an over-simplified MMO. No customization whatsoever. So if you don't like your RDM out of the box, too bad because all RDM's are the same....

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Originally Posted by maestroanth

It's because FFXIV is an over-simplified MMO. No customization whatsoever. So if you don't like your RDM out of the box, too bad because all RDM's are the same....

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...And what other MMOs have you played, exactly?

Look at endgame for WoW, for example. Literally EVERY class plays exactly the same in Antorus as well, with no deviation in talent builds whatsoever, and if you do, you're either treated like a troll, or someone completely new to your spec.

If vercure would be ogcd heal with small cooldown, RDM could support healers without dps loss like ninja can support tanks with extra enmity generation. I think that would be pretty cool idea?