The Unofficial "Why is this still a thing" Thread

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Originally Posted by Nora_of_Mira

Yoshi P answered this once, too lazy to find it. He basically said protect is too iconic of a skill to remove, even though they did in fact consider removing it. I agree, I think it needs to be made more useful but I dont know how and I dont think Yoshi P knows how.

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Actually, Yoshida wanted to remove it. Other members of the dev team convinced him it's too iconic. Which is dumb, considering it's a cast and forget ability.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, Yoshida wanted to remove it. Other members of the dev team convinced him it's too iconic. Which is dumb, considering it's a cast and forget ability.

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And then you see in PVP how it works like a short Def CD and you think, This would be a PERFECT cross role ability.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And then you see in PVP how it works like a short Def CD and you think, This would be a PERFECT cross role ability.

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Not really, it'd just be the healer version of Rampart where it's so good there's no reason not to take it, so why even make it an option in the first place.

Speaking of, my answer to the question is Rampart as a cross-role skill.

So. Much. Seafood.

It feels like there are a million kinds of fish that you can catch, which is immersive, but useless! If you're going to give us that many fish, let us do something with them besides cook a select few.

Why do we need different raid tokens in each tier for specific item slots instead of just having a universal token for each tier and just have different quantities?

Why not make nearly all clothing items unisex. If people want to play as Dr. Frank-N-Furter let them.

Why cant we mail things between our own characters and have all characters on an account on the same world automatically share access to a house if the player has purchased one?

Why was Honeybooboo allowed to become a thing in the first place?

Why do the egi still not directly obey even if we have them on obey? As far as I know I need to cast that one egi skill before I cast my Dots but its so annoying since the Egi takes such a long time to do as I say..isnt there a way to overwrite commands? So that they truly obey our commands when we click on them?

(Also why is the 1000 character limit still a thing?)

Reprisal being made cross-role.

Bard and Machinist not having access to Division despite generating the highest enmity by far. Likewise, both being the only jobs entirely dependent on another (Dragoon) to increase their damage.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Bard and Machinist not having access to Division despite generating the highest enmity by far. Likewise, both being the only jobs entirely dependent on another (Dragoon) to increase their damage.

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That's very debatable; their burst is high, the enmity generation overall isn't nearly as high as many other jobs. Anyway, both bard and machinist have 2 enmity-halving skills exclusive to them.

About the second part, both dark knight and paladin depend on a slashing resistance down capable job. Casters are a whole different can of worms.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, Yoshida wanted to remove it. Other members of the dev team convinced him it's too iconic. Which is dumb, considering it's a cast and forget ability.

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Actually, Yoshida saved it. the dev team wanted to remove it http://twinfinite.net/2017/06/ffxiv-interview-e3-2017/

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Twinfinite: For all of the actions that were removed, the development team clearly believed it was for the better that they were gone. However is there a job action that you will miss or something that you maybe tried to save from being removed but were overruled?

Yoshida: The opposite was true [he successfully saved one]. The Protect spell, there were talks within the dev team that “oh we don’t want this anymore” and he (Yoshida-san) felt that as Final Fantasy you have got to have that spell [Protect]. It would be weird if we didn’t have it.

But otherwise, each of the decisions we made were very deliberate. There weren’t [situations] where Mr. Yoshida’s ideas were opposed by the development team.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Why do the egi still not directly obey even if we have them on obey? As far as I know I need to cast that one egi skill before I cast my Dots but its so annoying since the Egi takes such a long time to do as I say..isnt there a way to overwrite commands? So that they truly obey our commands when we click on them?

(Also why is the 1000 character limit still a thing?)

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ps2 limitations (more so the bold but the first issue fits as well)

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Why is the character creator still a horrible mess?

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http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...31/998/169.gif
...*realizes his freshly made face looks horrible*

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

ps2 limitations (more so the bold but the first issue fits as well)

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PS2 limitations...this game never ran on the PS2, unless you meant the PS3 but that ended a while ago.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Protect is a useless ability. It grants defence and magic defence, sure, but it wastes a slot that is better suited for something else. If they changed Protect to function as a defensive CD (a la Protect in PvP) it would be much more useful. As it stands now they could just grant Protect to everyone for free in a dungeon and nothing will change.

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FFXIV's protect is a combination of previous FF's "Shell" (Magical damage reduction) and "Protect" (Physical damage reduction), when Scholar takes it from WHM in 2.0, it's "protect" not "Protect+Proshell". There were even different icons for it.

The system that they turned into the role actions owes it's original design not to V1.0 but to how FF1 had cross-class aspects lifted from Wizardry. Essentially you could level up to X in some job, then change to a new job and take a few skills with you, and because leveling and permadeath were a thing, you would take whatever from the class that was most valuable. If FFXIV had this system as it was originally designed, you would not be able to take skills like Protect and Stoneskin from WHM without getting WHM to a level that allowed you to take two skills from it first, and then if you changed class, you would have no incentive to switch back. So the ultimate character setup might be one where you picked every long-lasting defensive skill from all the healers, and then stack them to be the ultimate healer. That is not the game we are playing.

Where the healing aspect of FFXIV falls apart is that changes made to the healers resulted in LESS to do. If protect doesn't really serve any purpose, then why is it in the cross-role set? Because people were always taking protect instead of other things from WHM. Hence the mistake was taking Esuna and Protect out of WHM's kit. They should have just changed the levels for equal skills in the AST and SCH kit, but because SCH is half a DPS, that can't be done. Protect is level 16, Esuna is 20. What does ACN get at 16 and 20? Drain and Diversion from the current role system. In the previous 2.0, WHM had protect at level 8, and Esuna at 18, Scholar had leeches at 40, and 3.0 kit for AST, Exalted Detriment was level 18. The problem pre-4.0 was Protect, Stone skin and Cleric stance were all considered "required" and you'd get yelled at for not doing at least Protect and Stone Skin before every fight.

You know how I'd fix Protect? Move protect to WHM-only. Bring Stone Skin back, Scholar and AST don't get it at all. They have their own shields. Now make stone skin overwrite regen/medica II. Make Protect be the long-term cast thing that WHM brings to the table. Make AST have a long-term Haste or buff-extending type of cast, and Scholar have a long-term cast like Reflect (allow stacking different long term effect casts, but not the same effect.) Put an exhaustion time on those long-term casts where they end if the healer runs out of MP or dies the effect is removed from the party. Once all three healers have both a long-term and a short-term shield, start putting mechanics in fights that party-wide shield mitigation is required or wipe/heavy damage is sustained.

It's of course difficult to balance because you can't give healers anything unique, otherwise it makes them the preferred healer. AST has RNG buffs, Scholar has the Fairy which can buff. WHM presently has no party-buffs unique to it's role, and that could be restored by deleting protect from the role actions and giving it back to WHM.

Why would you bring Stoneskin back? Divine Benison is a superior version of it. Honestly, it sounds like you just want to be playing 2.x.

Protect was changed for a reason: if it actually matters and only WHM has it, WHM is now mandatory for progression. That's not a good thing.

Get rid of unique flags on outdated tome/seal vendor gear, on the same updates that allow them to be traded for GC seals and desynthesis. Leave them on current cap tier for ring balance and safety against spending the weekly I suppose.

Why is clothing genderlocked?
- Cloth wants to be worn! It literally doesn't care WHO and WHAT wears it.

Why are hairstyles locked?
- Seriously, SE. Did you hit your head somewhere..?

Why can't the primal horses fly?
- We have a flying elephant and a spinning turtle. Do I need to say more?

Why are there so many invisible walls?
- I ran over the edge? LEMME FALL INTO OBLIVION!

Why did you implement this weird glamor system?
- WoW did it. GW2 did it. And then there is SE...

v.v

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Why would you bring Stoneskin back? Divine Benison is a superior version of it. Honestly, it sounds like you just want to be playing 2.x..

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Stoneskin has a much longer duration, can be applied out of combat, and had an aoe form that could be used prepull. It also can be used on someone outside your party. Benison is not superior, not by a longshot.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

That's very debatable; their burst is high, the enmity generation overall isn't nearly as high as many other jobs. Anyway, both bard and machinist have 2 enmity-halving skills exclusive to them.

About the second part, both dark knight and paladin depend on a slashing resistance down capable job. Casters are a whole different can of worms.

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It makes little sense Bard and Machinist are forced to burn utility abilities to half their aggro when a skill exists purely to accommodate that problem. Say a scenario occurs where the group needs Tactician. Oops, the Bard used it to cut their aggro or they'll rip from the tank. And a good Bard will rip before a Caster, though Black Mage moves close. None of the melee remotely touch Bard or Machinists aggro burst.

What is the likelihood you will have a group without Samurai, Ninja or Warrior? Three jobs provide Slashing yet only one provides Piercing despite three jobs benefiting from it. Casters are irrelevant since their damage isn't reliant on a utility like range and melee.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Stoneskin has a much longer duration, can be applied out of combat, and had an aoe form that could be used prepull. It also can be used on someone outside your party. Benison is not superior, not by a longshot.

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it's true, you can't compare stoneskin and benison that easily. they are different skills with different purposes. however, if i had to choose i would always take benison.

it's not stoneskin - but it's by far the better skill (at least after they removed the lily requirement)

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Protect was changed for a reason: if it actually matters and only WHM has it, WHM is now mandatory for progression. That's not a good thing.

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i am not too sure if it was a good reason... SCH and AST would still had the physical protect and on top of that super virus, disable, fey covenant, sacred soil and collective unconscious (the bubbles do stack, don't they?). enough tools to cover the lack in magic defense for those raid busters...

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

That's very debatable; their burst is high, the enmity generation overall isn't nearly as high as many other jobs. Anyway, both bard and machinist have 2 enmity-halving skills exclusive to them.

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Hello, a BRD here. o/

While I can’t speak for others, I would take Diversion’s 90% reduction in enmity generation over Refresh’s/Tactician’s 50% aggro dump. They rarely serve to be sufficient, because I always end up crawling back up to #2 before one (or both) are off cooldown, since a BRD bursts every 80 seconds when they enter Minuet+Raging Strikes. Diversion would serve much better for these burst phases, since it will reduce your aggro generation by 90% for 30 seconds, rather than just half it. Especially since Refresh/Tacitician should be used first and foremost for resource replenishment, not for me to save my own skin. :x I’d happily trade the dumps for an enmity queller.

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About the second part, both dark knight and paladin depend on a slashing resistance down capable job. Casters are a whole different can of worms.

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The difference with DRK and PLD is that there are options for the slashing debuff: WAR, NIN, and SAM. BRD/MCH have 1 option for piercing, and one option only: DRG. In addition, all other DPS jobs can apply their own resistance down debuff (slashing, piercing, blunt); BRD/MCH are the only ones who do not have that ability, and they lose out on 400~500 DPS because of it. Casters’ damage is calculated without having to rely on a “magic resistance down” debuff; they don’t have the same problems BRD/MCH do.

Honestly, the developers need to either give BRD/MCH piercing resistance down, or remove it from the game (and buff potencies accordingly for DRG, BRD and MCH; because DRG will die if they don’t buff its potencies). Honestly, all the resistance down debuffs need to go. Considering all DPS jobs can apply their own save two, there’s no reason to have them. There’s the “they offer synergy” argument, but the only “synergy” piercing has created is the physical meta of DRG/BRD/MCH that has been present since Creator. People love to hate on the meta, well the easiest way to break it is to remove piercing. Because that’s what’s holding together DRG/BRD/MCH.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Stoneskin has a much longer duration, can be applied out of combat, and had an aoe form that could be used prepull. It also can be used on someone outside your party. Benison is not superior, not by a longshot.

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The issue with Stoneskin’s duration is that you rarely benefited from the full 30 minutes; most Stoneskins were broken pretty quickly upon entering combat, especially on a tank where they are more useful. Stoneskin II could only be applied outside of combat, thereby limiting its effectiveness. It would have been far more effective as an AOE shield/mitigation option if WHMs could have used it during combat. But, since they couldn’t, it was essentially worthless.

I would take Benison over Stoneskin. It costs nothing to use (other than it will still eat your lilies to reduce the CD timer, but it doesn’t cost MP like Stoneskin did), is an oGCD I can weave between GCDs, and it mitigates more (15% of a target’s max HP as opposed to Stoneskin’s 10%).

Oh I think I'm going to like this thread. Here are a few things, off the top of my head.

The Crafting Log being poorly organized, with very limited options for organizing recipes ourselves. Outside or level range, and text search, all new recipes are just dumped in groups. If we had the option to reorganize the recipes into custom categories, I would spend a night or two sorting out the whole thing.

Mastercraft recipes not recording completion. I know it's a cheap and easy way to save server space, or some such nonsense. However, I just find it very inconsistent with the rest of the UI that Masterbook recipes do not record completion status.

The retainer UI. I've said this before, one would think that for a part of the game that is generating potential additional revenue for this game, the UI wouldn't be so neglected.

Retainers not being able to join GC squadrons. Random npcs, that I'm sure are also in other squadrons, just don't do it for me. I made the retainer characters myself. Let me adventure with them.

Also, not being able to check if a retainer name is taken until the very last step of the retainer creation process. I'm sure I'm not the only one that spent a good amount of time creating a retainer character, with a specific name in mind, only to find out that the name is taken after going through the trouble of going through the entire process.

The fact that there are over 700 fish in this game, and an overwhelming majority of them are completely useless.

Fireworks not having a crafting recipe.

Fireworks being in forbidden magically sealed sacks

Minion Guide not having a search or sort function, yet the Verminion window does have a sort feature.

Mini Cactpot not increasing its payout since being introduced.

Deck restrictions on Triple Triad.

Needing an npc to "sell" duplicate cards. It would be much easier to just have the ability to convert them to points wherever, or the option to trade them.

Shards

Rubber

No alt-friendly features.

"Polar" bears in Coerthas.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Hello, a BRD here. o/

While I can’t speak for others, I would take Diversion’s 90% reduction in enmity generation over Refresh’s/Tactician’s 50% aggro dump.

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On BRD, I would too, I was just pointing out how BRD and MCH both have 2 skills that reduce the enmity by half. In fact, both Refresh and Tactician should have some sort of enmity generation reduction attached to them on top of the dump.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It makes little sense Bard and Machinist are forced to burn utility abilities to half their aggro when a skill exists purely to accommodate that problem. Say a scenario occurs where the group needs Tactician. Oops, the Bard used it to cut their aggro or they'll rip from the tank. And a good Bard will rip before a Caster, though Black Mage moves close. None of the melee remotely touch Bard or Machinists aggro burst.

What is the likelihood you will have a group without Samurai, Ninja or Warrior? Three jobs provide Slashing yet only one provides Piercing despite three jobs benefiting from it. Casters are irrelevant since their damage isn't reliant on a utility like range and melee.

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Refresh and Tactician, especially the first, is usually used on CD (note the "usually" there), and Tactician is normally up there on demand. Again, I would attach an enmity generation reduction to them on top of that. The burst is high, the enmity generation after that isn't. And I can tell you as a samurai, whose burst isn't exactly brilliant, as I struggled not to grab the hate off a tank shortly after the fights began when Diversion was crappy, on Deltascape Savage.

The likelihood of having a SAM, a NIN, or a WAR has nothing to do with the fact that PLD and DRK don't have it. DRG isn't only invited for their piercing resistance down, but also for their decent damage on top of Battle Littany and Dragon Sight. So, by that logic, the likelihood of having a DRG is quite high. It's as if they gave BRD and MCH their own piercing resistance down and the next step would be to ask for a Battle Littany kind of skill for themselves.

I would just take these resistances down away, they're not interesting in the least.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i am not too sure if it was a good reason... SCH and AST would still had the physical protect and on top of that super virus, disable, fey covenant, sacred soil and collective unconscious (the bubbles do stack, don't they?). enough tools to cover the lack in magic defense for those raid busters...

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Not denying those were all great abilities, but we no longer have some of those and even if we did some fights have a high amount of magic AoE raid damage.

Have you been in O6S or O8S? The amount of AoE magic damage going out is high so the tools right now wouldn't cover it all.

You also have to take into account SCH using all their stacks on Sacred Soil means they can't use it on Lustrate/Excog/Indom/Energy Drain. So yeah they can pop a Sacred Soil every 30s to try to make up for the fact they don't have Proshell, but they are losing other tools and/or MP/DPS.

Collective Unconscious has a 90s cooldown not nearly short enough to handle all the AoE damage in some of the savage turns. It also has a server tick issue to proc the mitigation/regen which can cause ASTs to loose up to 3 GCDs trying to proc it. So it is a clunky ability and has downsides of being forced to channel it and unable to cast or move and also losing GCDs for other healing and/or DPS.

Also none of these tools are a cast it and forget it type thing like Protect is (minus death and having to recast once in awhile). So other healers would have to use more resources and waste healing and DPS uptime to mitigate.

If AST and SCH no longer had Proshell (which we have right now) then likely any comp without a WHM would be at a pretty big disadvantage since the group as a whole would take a lot more overall AoE damage throughout the fight.

They could just make Protect a spell every healer gets instead of it taking up a role skill slot tho....but then again Esuna really needs that too.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Stoneskin has a much longer duration, can be applied out of combat, and had an aoe form that could be used prepull. It also can be used on someone outside your party. Benison is not superior, not by a longshot.

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Lmao. You're joking right?

The duration on SS was generally pointless since the shield was usually destroyed long before it would expire.

It being applied outside combat was more a nuisance than anything. I had never seen SS save someone at the start of a fight.

SS2 is not the same as SS so using that as a reason that SS was better is laughable.

What does DB bring instead? It's oGCD and costs 0 MP. SS had a cast time of 3s, meaning it had a longer cast time than the GCD. It was also fairly expensive to cast, in terms of MP. DB also has a stronger shield.

So yes DB is superior to SS.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You know how I'd fix Protect? Move protect to WHM-only. Bring Stone Skin back, Scholar and AST don't get it at all. They have their own shields. Now make stone skin overwrite regen/medica II.

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While I am under the opinion that all healers should have their own versions of the basic 'required skills' such as Protect and Esuna, this is a bad idea. It's already bad enough when I use AST and I cannot be sure if my co-AST or co-SCH will cooperate with me to not overwrite whatever buffs I have up. Adding Stoneskin II into that mix with WHM will just make this needlessly complicated. Also...while we have our own shields, yes, it's not a long-lasting defensive mitigation. Honestly, I'd prefer if all three jobs had their own protect version, and they each brought something different to the table instead. Not sure how you justify removing protect from AST/SCH because 'they have their own'. It's not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

Protect. It just takes up cross role space. I'm certain they could have done some math and edited damage taken so protect would no longer be necessary.

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It punishes death in battle.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

The likelihood of having a SAM, a NIN, or a WAR has nothing to do with the fact that PLD and DRK don't have it. DRG isn't only invited for their piercing resistance down, but also for their decent damage on top of Battle Littany and Dragon Sight. So, by that logic, the likelihood of having a DRG is quite high. It's as if they gave BRD and MCH their own piercing resistance down and the next step would be to ask for a Battle Littany kind of skill for themselves.

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I don't plan on doing the exact math but the likelihood of having one of 3 jobs in your comp for slashing resistance down which benefits 5 jobs (two of which you are guaranteed to have) seems a lot stronger than the likelihood of having one of one jobs in your party with piercing down which benefits 3 jobs (which are almost never triple stacked) and gives a mild buff to a fourth.

To put it bluntly any static thag doesn't have a NIN in it is shooting it's self in the foot. Trick + Shadewalker/Smokescreen + Slashing debuff is amazing utility. No one is going to ignore slashing resistance down because it always buffs at least the user of the debuff and both tanks.

I don't underatand how you're comparing those two things or how you made the (huge) leap to the idea that BRD/MCH would ask for some form of Litany as well - this isn't a discussion about killing DRG just about making resistance down debuffs remotely equitable.

Stop comparing apples to potatoes.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I don't plan on doing the exact math but the likelihood of having one of 3 jobs in your comp for slashing resistance down which benefits 5 jobs (two of which you are guaranteed to have) seems a lot stronger than the likelihood of having one of one jobs in your party with piercing down which benefits 3 jobs (which are almost never triple stacked) and gives a mild buff to a fourth.

To put it bluntly any static thag doesn't have a NIN in it is shooting it's self in the foot. Trick + Shadewalker/Smokescreen + Slashing debuff is amazing utility. No one is going to ignore slashing resistance down because it always buffs at least the user of the debuff and both tanks.

I don't underatand how you're comparing those two things or how you made the (huge) leap to the idea that BRD/MCH would ask for some form of Litany as well - this isn't a discussion about killing DRG just about making resistance down debuffs remotely equitable.

Stop comparing apples to potatoes.

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I'm not comparing crap, I'm enforcing the idea of having them resistance down effects gone. Looking at the bigger picture here, pointing out how this isn't about "since I don't have it, you shouldn't either", but rather mentioning that many jobs depend on others just for something that shouldn't exist, such as those. And me being a SAM speaks volumes, as it's literally the only piece of support I could possibly bring in to a party.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Stoneskin has a much longer duration, can be applied out of combat, and had an aoe form that could be used prepull. It also can be used on someone outside your party. Benison is not superior, not by a longshot.

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I was a proponent for Divine Benison being better than Stoneskin even before the Lily change and it's even better now that is has no Lily cost. A 0MP oGCD that provides more mitigation than non-traited Stoneskin meant it would be used significantly more often than Stoneskin. Stoneskin suffered from being inefficient when Cure II would cast faster and provide more HP than Stoneskin's eHP - especially if the target was a non-tank. Duration of Stoneskin means nothing when most of the buff wouldn't even last beyond 10 seconds on a tank.

Divine Benison fixed everything that made Stoneskin horribly inefficient and gave a very powerful tool to the WHM kit in the process. I believe that Divine Benison is miles ahead of the old Stoneskin iterations.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

On BRD, I would too, I was just pointing out how BRD and MCH both have 2 skills that reduce the enmity by half. In fact, both Refresh and Tactician should have some sort of enmity generation reduction attached to them on top of the dump.

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They do...but by this same logic, Casters have both an enmity dump (Lucid Dreaming) and an enmity queller (Diversion). DRG and NIN also have other ways to manage their enmity as well (DRG has Diversion and Elusive Jump; NIN can take Diversion and also has Shadewalker to give their aggro to the tank). The only jobs with only 1 enmity management skill are actually MNK/SAM. All other jobs also have options for two, be them 2 dumps or 1 dump and 1 queller.

Personally, BRD/MCH would deal better to have a queller over a dump. It would be more prudent for SE to just remove the dump from Refresh/Tactician, and give BRD/MCH Diversion and its quelling. A support shouldn’t be having to blow their support skills to dump/quell their aggro anyways. I end up using Refresh/Tactician more often or not to dump my own aggro (Refresh less so during prog situations).

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Refresh and Tactician, especially the first, is usually used on CD (note the "usually" there), and Tactician is normally up there on demand. Again, I would attach an enmity generation reduction to them on top of that. The burst is high, the enmity generation after that isn't. And I can tell you as a samurai, whose burst isn't exactly brilliant, as I struggled not to grab the hate off a tank shortly after the fights began when Diversion was crappy, on Deltascape Savage.

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Tactician my be up under normal circumstances, but again, a BRD bursts every 80 seconds. That’s a burst in enmity every 80 seconds. A queller would help immensely with that burst, where as an aggro dump, yeah, it dumps it...but then you build it right back up starting immediately after its usage. A queller quells it for 30 seconds—meaning you generate 90% less enmity for 30 seconds. Way better than a flat dump, in my opinion.

Diversion wasn’t sufficient enough in the beginning, yes, but now it’s 90% reduction in enmity. As a BRD, I’m constantly on the brink of ripping aggro if I don’t have an aggro dump. And there is literally nothing I can do about it. Like I said, even after dumping it, most of the time I just drop to #4 or #5...and then I climb my way back up to #2 before either dump is off CD again.

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The likelihood of having a SAM, a NIN, or a WAR has nothing to do with the fact that PLD and DRK don't have it. DRG isn't only invited for their piercing resistance down, but also for their decent damage on top of Battle Littany and Dragon Sight. So, by that logic, the likelihood of having a DRG is quite high. It's as if they gave BRD and MCH their own piercing resistance down and the next step would be to ask for a Battle Littany kind of skill for themselves.

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If you take away piercing, DRG dies. DRG is in the meta now because of the rDPS it brings to the group with Disembowel and the physical ranged jobs. Without the piercing resistance down, there is nothing keeping DRG in the meta. Damage-wise, DRG is performing at about the same level as BRD in terms of personal damage. Litany is great and all—don’t get me wrong—but not nearly enough to offset the raw damage (and utility) that MNK will bring; especially since WARs no longer care for crit buffs since the changes made to Inner Release. MNK would crush DRG if piercing was removed from the game and DRG’s potencies were not buffed to compensate. Dragon Sight provides even less of an rDPS gain than Litany does.

To give some insight, my highest Chadarnook is 90th percentile at 5752 DPS. My next parse after that was 5335 DPS. What was I missing there? A DRG. My 5335 parse actually had better gear than my 5752 parse. But without a DRG, that was -400 DPS. Just gone.

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next step would be to ask for a Battle Littany kind of skill for themselves.

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Uhm, no they wouldn’t. There is a huge difference between a flat +5% buff to your damage that is up 100% of the time, and a buff that gives you +15% crit for 20 seconds every 180 seconds—you’ll see Litany twice in a 7-minute long fight; you’ll have Disembowel up for that entire 7 minutes. There is a huge difference between the two. BRD/MCH would not be asking for their own Battle Litany. BRD/MCH would like their own piercing so that they don’t suffer unnecessarily if a group doesn’t have a DRG. No other DPS job suffers like they do.

You keep mentioning tank jobs, but I’m talking about DPS jobs. All other physical DPS jobs are able to apply their own resistance down debuffs except for BRD/MCH, and they are the only ones that suffer unnecessarily when a group lacks a DRG. If there was some uniqueness to the resistance downs, then maybe I would get behind leaving it as DRG-only. But, as it stands now, MNK applies Blunt (and is the only one who benefits from it), NIN applies slashing (which it benefits from), SAM applies slashing (which it benefits from), and DRG applies piercing (which it benefits from).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Snip

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When I used to do Salvage, last tier was my last, the opener was the problem, right after that, a BRD nor a MCH should worry about their enmity as much to depend on a queller. Probably things changed, but it doesn't feel like they did.

About DRG being taken out of the equation in case of the piercing resistance down gone, well, they (SE) can very well work their numbers so their personal damage makes up for the loss. Again, every job should lose that in my opinion. Since it's all in the reign of speculation and wishes, everything's on the table, but very doable in terms of raw numbers.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You keep mentioning tank jobs, but I’m talking about DPS jobs. All other physical DPS jobs are able to apply their own resistance down debuffs except for BRD/MCH, and they are the only ones that suffer unnecessarily when a group lacks a DRG. If there was some uniqueness to the resistance downs, then maybe I would get behind leaving it as DRG-only. But, as it stands now, MNK applies Blunt (and is the only one who benefits from it), NIN applies slashing (which it benefits from), SAM applies slashing (which it benefits from), and DRG applies piercing (which it benefits from).

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To be fair, you know (as you mentioned) that a DRG is invited into parties to potency BRD's and MCH's. Meaning, these last two have a spot for sure in every party, and it revolves around them. I mean, I'm a SAM, and I'm suffering from the exact opposite even though I can increase both my damage, ninjas', and tanks'.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

I'm not comparing crap, I'm enforcing the idea of having them resistance down effects gone. Looking at the bigger picture here, pointing out how this isn't about "since I don't have it, you shouldn't either", but rather mentioning that many jobs depend on others just for something that shouldn't exist, such as those. And me being a SAM speaks volumes, as it's literally the only piece of support I could possibly bring in to a party.

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I suppose I will respond to this with...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you take away piercing, DRG dies. DRG is in the meta now because of the rDPS it brings to the group with Disembowel. If a group has a BRD or MCH, that’s +400~500 rDPS right there. If you have both, +800~1,000. Without the piercing resistance down, there is nothing keeping DRG in the meta. Damage-wise, DRG is performing at about the same level as BRD in terms of personal damage. Litany is great and all—don’t get me wrong—but not nearly enough to offset the raw damage (and utility) that MNK will bring; especially since WARs no longer care for crit buffs since the changes made to Inner Release. MNK would crush DRG if piercing was removed from the game and DRG’s potencies were not buffed to compensate. Dragon Sight provides less of an rDPS gain than Litany does.

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This :)

Also I don't think doing away with resistances is necessarily a bad thing at face value (with approproate potency adjustments made to effected classes, particularly DRG) but I do think resistances add a bit more nuance to party building that would otherwise just be flat. I'm not saying I'm for or against the removal of resistances entirely, it's honestly something I would think about more before being able to respond, but I think the point here is that if we are keeping resistances in the game in their current iteration BRD and MCH are getting the short end of the stick right now.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

Protect. It just takes up cross role space. I'm certain they could have done some math and edited damage taken so protect would no longer be necessary.

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If I remember right, even SE agreed with you on that point going into Stormblood, but they feared the reaction of players who wanted that "special thing for healers to do"...
- as in... Protect felt so "iconic" for healer characters that they kept it, even though they felt it was better just being 'baked in' to the numbers...

A lot of healers now run a macro that swaps one role skill to protect, casts it, then swaps back... (this can be an issue in the DF when you get a tank that just starts running at duty start... they start demanding protect and when I'm on my healer I keep telling them to 'stop moving and let me cast... and you'll get it... but they can't stand waiting the extra single GC to do a skill swap...

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Why can't we send mail to our alts? From a consumer POV this is a pretty basic thing we should be able to do.

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There's this whole contingent in this game that always comes back with "but you don't need alts" to which I respond "but I like having them, why does it offend you that I like having more than one character?"

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Refresh and Tactician, especially the first, is usually used on CD (note the "usually" there), and Tactician is normally up there on demand. Again, I would attach an enmity generation reduction to them on top of that. The burst is high, the enmity generation after that isn't. And I can tell you as a samurai, whose burst isn't exactly brilliant, as I struggled not to grab the hate off a tank shortly after the fights began when Diversion was crappy, on Deltascape Savage.

The likelihood of having a SAM, a NIN, or a WAR has nothing to do with the fact that PLD and DRK don't have it. DRG isn't only invited for their piercing resistance down, but also for their decent damage on top of Battle Littany and Dragon Sight. So, by that logic, the likelihood of having a DRG is quite high. It's as if they gave BRD and MCH their own piercing resistance down and the next step would be to ask for a Battle Littany kind of skill for themselves.

I would just take these resistances down away, they're not interesting in the least.

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Do you realize they fixed Division for a reason, yes? It's irrelevant now since they addressed the issue. And depending on the group, progression and possible mistakes, Tactician and Refresh may not be available. It's silly design to blow support abilities solely to dump your aggro when an ability exists purely to accommodate that very purpose. Most physical range will prefer a 90% queller over a 50% dump. Likewise, why attach the aforementioned queller to another skill when you can just give them Division and accomplish the same feat?

Of course it does. Three jobs apply slashing, thus making it far less likely Paladin and Dark Knight will suffer a damage loss. I never said it was the only reason, however it's a contributing factor. Physical Range suffer more than any other job without a Dragoon. They either need to remove Piercing or allow other jobs to apply it (Samurai is screaming for relevancy) because, again, why should only one job be able to apply it when Slashing does not have such limitations?

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Also I don't think doing away with resistances is necessarily a bad thing at face value (with approproate potency adjustments made to effected classes, particularly DRG) but I do think resistances add a bit more nuance to party building that would otherwise just be flat. I'm not saying I'm for or against the removal of resistances entirely, it's honestly something I would think about more before being able to respond, but I think the point here is that if we are keeping resistances in the game in their current iteration BRD and MCH are getting the short end of the stick right now.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

To be fair, you know (as you mentioned) that a DRG is invited into parties to potency BRD's and MCH's. Meaning, these last two have a spot for sure in every party, and it revolves around them. I mean, I'm a SAM, and I'm suffering from the exact opposite even though I can increase both my damage, ninjas', and tanks'.

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I'd gladly take the short end of the stick on SAM if its value was comparable to that of a BRD or a MCH, be it by bringing either utility or even more personal damage, enough to make up for the lack of utility I currently have. I'd love to give my only utility.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Do you realize they fixed Division for a reason, yes? It's irrelevant now since they addressed the issue. And depending on the group, progression and possible mistakes, Tactician and Refresh may not be available. It's silly design to blow support abilities solely to dump your aggro when an ability exists purely to accommodate that very purpose. Most physical range will prefer a 90% queller over a 50% dump. Likewise, why attach the aforementioned queller to another skill when you can just give them Division and accomplish the same feat?

Of course it does. Three jobs apply slashing, thus making it far less likely Paladin and Dark Knight will suffer a damage loss. I never said it was the only reason, however it's a contributing factor. Physical Range suffer more than any other job without a Dragoon. They either need to remove Piercing or allow other jobs to apply it (Samurai is screaming for relevancy) because, again, why should only one job be able to apply it when Slashing does not have such limitations?

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Funny you mentioned how Diversion was fixed; I used to take the hate at some point in Savage on SAM on every single fight, with (almost) every tank out there. Now, it was a suggestion, things can get worked in the form of a reduced CD (amongst other things) for Refresh and Tactician, for example.

I used to think SAM should've had both Blunt, Piercing, and Slashing resistances down attached to its finishers, but not anymore. They should do away with those, entirely.

Anyway, to each their own, I'll leave you guys to it.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

When I used to do Salvage, last tier was my last, the opener was the problem, right after that, a BRD nor a MCH should worry about their enmity as much to depend on a queller. Probably things changed, but it doesn't feel like they did.

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I have to respectfully disagree. I’m not sure what BRDs you have been running with, but I am constantly climbing back up to #2 on the enmity list after dumping my enmity. Like I said, a BRD bursts every 80 seconds. Every 180 seconds, with a DRG, I can just redo my entire opener again and burst again. Every 4 minutes and 30 seconds, I can use a pot again during another Minuet phase and burst for even higher. Sorry, but I disagree with you when you say a BRD wouldn’t benefit from a queller outside of their opener.

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To be fair, you know (as you mentioned) that a DRG is invited into parties to potency BRD's and MCH's. Meaning, these last two have a spot for sure in every party, and it revolves around them. I mean, I'm a SAM, and I'm suffering from the exact opposite even though I can increase both my damage, ninjas', and tanks'.

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I also mentioned:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

There’s the “they offer synergy” argument, but the only “synergy” piercing has created is the physical meta of DRG/BRD/MCH that has been present since Creator. People love to hate on the meta, well the easiest way to break it is to remove piercing. Because that’s what’s holding together DRG/BRD/MCH.

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You want the DRG/BRD/MCH trinity to be broken? As I said, remove piercing from the game, or give it to BRD/MCH. That would break that meta. The meta came to be because BRD and MCH formed a truce during Creator when they realized, “Holy crap, DRG can buff both of our damage.” (That was back when Disembowel was +10%; Disembowel was nerfed with SB and the meta has still persevered.)

As for SAM and slashing, NIN can apply slashing for itself. It doesn’t need a SAM. Same thing for WAR. And most statics tend to run WAR/DRK or WAR/PLD. Maybe you’d find a PLD/DRK...but if they bring a NIN, there’s slashing right there. But, from what I understand, groups don’t bring SAM to apply slashing, because for a SAM to apply it, they have to gimp their opener.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Funny you mentioned how Diversion was fixed; I used to take the hate at some point in Savage on SAM on every single fight, with (almost) every tank out there.

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Diversion was modified in Patch 4.2. If you haven’t raided this tier, then that would explain why you only have experience with the old Diversion, which was terrible for MNK and SAM back in the day. But now it’s god-tier. 90% reduction for 30 seconds, and the cooldown timer is 120 seconds. So every 2 minutes it will be up to quell 30 seconds of enmity by 90%.

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Now, it was a suggestion, things can get worked in the form of a reduced CD (amongst other things) for Refresh and Tactician, for example.

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Maybe that could work, but a reduced cooldown on Refresh/Tactician would require them to probably adjust it’s duration or the potency attached to the skill (Refresh’s MP refresh is ridiculously potent—600 MP per tick for 6,000 MP regeneration). I’d still much rather have an aggro queller than a more frequent aggro dump. I think I would benefit more from a queller. That’s my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

To be fair, you know (as you mentioned) that a DRG is invited into parties to potency BRD's and MCH's. Meaning, these last two have a spot for sure in every party, and it revolves around them. I mean, I'm a SAM, and I'm suffering from the exact opposite even though I can increase both my damage, ninjas', and tanks'.

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I'm reading this and I'm confused. SAMs don't really help tanks or ninjas in that sense. Ninjas and WARs apply the slashing debuff FAR earlier than a SAM possibly could outside of Meikyo Shisui, and if a SAM chooses to use their opener to get a slashing debuff up, that hurts their overall rotation. SAM is literally pure pDPS...they don't really have raid utility in the same sense that the other DPS classes do. Even BLM can provide utility, like mana shift. I know that with WARs, on an optimized rotation, their literal second skill, Maim, applies a slashing debuff.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's a thing with all MMO's, usually stripping an account is caused by players engaging in RMT

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Yeah let's see...

I also have played or still play: WoW, Wildstar, Elder Scrolls, Guild Wars 1 & 2, Everquest 2, Tera, Blade and Soul, Age ofConan (for about 1 hour... ick), City of Heroes (a moment of silence please for a fallen friend), Neverwinter, Champions Online, Black Desert, and a few random things here and there...

This is the only game that is so alt-hostile.

I get that you can play every class on a single toon, but you can't play every race at the same time on the same CHARACTER... so I and others have alts.

And in ALL of those other games, I can send things around between various characters.

Yet it is this game that has had the most problems with RMT of them all. Guild Wars 2 came close at launch... but a few days in they banned 30,000 accounts in one hit, forced a password change for all users, blocked any password that had ever been used by ANYONE from being used by anyone ever again (*)... and that was it...

* (so if you had the password "12345", the system would not let me have that password)

The RMT issues are not alt related... they're account security related.

On launch day of this game, I was watching as people I was talking to or standing next to in game vanished, then logged back in minutes later and started spamming RMT offers...

Me... I got an SE Token, that 'one-time' thingy...

If everyone had that, we'd be done talking about RMT here... (*)

*(Hackers have recently showed proof of concept for cracking into two-factor authentication, but the process is complex and involves gaining access to a Wi-Fi network and a two-factor system that is using that same network: as in... if somebody hacks your two-factor... it means they're sitting outside your house in that black van with the guys in mirrorshades in it... you got bigger problems at that point... one of which might be "seeing things" that aren't there... :) ).