Samurai Buff Speculation

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Higanbana, I would agree, probably does need an increase to the amount of damage it ticks for. If you add up the potency over time of it compared to Shadow Fang, Demolish, and Chaos Thrust, the damage is in line with other jobs. The only benefit is the Samurai doesn't have to reapply it as often.

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The fact that it is in line with other jobs is terrible, considering that the idea behind SAM is that it's supposed to be the highest personal DPS job.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

The fact that it is in line with other jobs is terrible, considering that the idea behind SAM is that it's supposed to be the highest personal DPS job.

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Hiragana is not that bad really.

Inial hit is 240 potency. Plus 20 ticks at 35 potency. For a total of 940 potency from basically a single gcd.
If you use kaiten that's a total of 1410 potency still from basically a single gcd.

Compare to like shadow gang. Wherein The same 60 seconds you need 3 of them. That's 600 potency plus the for. 800 potency. Your looking at 1400 potency from 3 gcd.

The damage is adds up to be similar sure but 1410 potency from a single gcd is quite a significant amount of damage.
In that respect it's almost 3x more powerful than shadow gang.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

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autocorrect did as fantastic job on this xD

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Logically I'd say SAM should be ahead of BLM.

Casters typically have the relative safety of range. Which is why there usually less powerful than brute force melee jobs.

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by that logic, blm, the least mobile dps class, should have the highest dps

Sam has been top or near top for the last 2 patches, ... it will eventually be top again.., should tie with blm (sam still can get more party buffs in general)... but see even today some pfs still not wanting a blm, due to that blm die often (out of healing range, lower HP, slower to master in new fights ect.., besides zero utility of its own.., atleast if a nin or war is missing, sam can slash debuff)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

by that logic, blm, the least mobile dps class, should have the highest dps

Sam has been top or near top for the last 2 patches, ... it will eventually be top again.., should tie with blm (sam still can get more party buffs in general)... but see even today some pfs still not wanting a blm, due to that blm die often (out of healing range, lower HP, slower to master in new fights ect.., besides zero utility of its own.., atleast if a nin or war is missing, sam can slash debuff)

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SAM will never be "top" even if their pDPS is eventually a couple hundred above MNK. Most PFs don't want SAM *or* BLM so yes, both of these jobs need re-evaluation from Square. Slashing debuff literally means nothing because 99% of parties have WAR/NIN. You can clear with both jobs, but why would you want to? It's like taking a $90,000 salary job with 0 benefits (SAM/BLM) vs. an $85,000 one that has 6 weeks paid vacation among other various benefits (rDPS).

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Originally Posted by aozoranoyume

What do you think it has been and is right now? Got our NIN? Okay. Got our DRG? Okay, then we're allowed to raid. BLM & MNK can't fall out of meta if they were never in it in the first place. As long as Square continues to think selfish DPS are just as efficient as rDPS contributions, the meta will remain permanent as it has since 3.0. Potency buffs have done literally nothing for BLM to gain favor in the raid scene so why would it work for SAM?

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Then it should be massively obvious that making adding an even greater imbalance to that checklist does not solve the damn checklist. It's like you're acting in retaliation rather than trying to fix anything. Well NIN has a lead on rDPS in perfect comps, so let me have 400% his lead in an even more gimmicky manner -- and with no required skill, to boot -- so that parties are almost explicitly required to have me. Problem... solved?

"Selfish" damage-dealing IS as rDPS efficient as indirect contributors so long as they produce the same rDPS. It doesn't matter -- at all -- where that rDPS comes from. If a SAM would bring even just 1.5 to 1.8% of the NIN party's raid DPS more in personal damage than that NIN, he is an rDPS increase.

Reasonable external changes to a given class would include things like Brotherhood affecting ALL damage, or the previous buffs to Dragon Sight or the change to Foe Requiem and Hypercharge to affect all damage rather than (either just physical or) just magical, each allowing for greater versatility and reducing compositional niching. They do not include stripping other classes of their core skills in order to force them to take another to even have (what used to be) a full rotation. They do not include a 50% more powerful skill that is balanced around the assumption of use (due to having 3 identical appliers), which can affect up to 50% of the raid each a relatively huge portion of their damage each.

NIN remains very nearly balanced reasonable because of how little its personal damage contributes; it's no laughable amount, and certainly right up there, but the difference in having or not having Trick Attack contributes similarly small numbers. Even assuming the best possible use of Trick Attack for the given NIN's comp, its rDPS typically carries only a very small lead.
The best possible Samurai, on the other hand, generally falls behind not just the best possible BLM, but also often the best possible SMN or MNK, both of whom provide some additional 2 to 4% of their value as rDPS not included in their individual parses. That's your problem, and it doesn't mean that Samurai needs raid support; it just means it needs more rDPS, in any given way.

It's not that raid (de)buffs are inherently strong. They're only as good as the damage dealt during its windows. It's just that SAM is undertuned, just as RDM is slightly undertuned. That's it. Any inherent fault in "selfish" dps is owed only to their mention in regurgitated secondhand information. The resultant fault, however, does actually exist, but is small.

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Originally Posted by aozoranoyume

SAM will never be "top" even if their pDPS is eventually a couple hundred above MNK. Most PFs don't want SAM *or* BLM so yes, both of these jobs need re-evaluation from Square. Slashing debuff literally means nothing because 99% of parties have WAR/NIN. You can clear with both jobs, but why would you want to? It's like taking a $90,000 salary job with 0 benefits (SAM/BLM) vs. an $85,000 one that has 6 weeks paid vacation among other various benefits (rDPS).

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You're again badly overestimating indirect damage. You've given almost a 12% advantage to the latter through vacation time. The reality of it would be barely a week with the best possible comp and timings (Trick Attack; nominally 1.6% rDPS, closer to 1.9% in actuality). Only DRG in a double-ranged party would make your analogy sensible. And the only benefits any remotely meta job past clears have outside of the damage itself are Shadewalker and Mantra, neither of which amount to much (except for add speedburns).

They will be "top" when their DPS (yes, the sum of personal and indirect -- which for SAM would be solely pDPS) is top. No if's and's or but's. Hopefully that will never occur, seeing as there is technically less risk and therefore skill on the part of the party involved in reaching that level of contribution from an independent source than from a dependent one. But hopefully it will one day be far closer.

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Originally Posted by aozoranoyume

SAM will never be "top" even if their pDPS is eventually a couple hundred above MNK. Most PFs don't want SAM *or* BLM so yes, both of these jobs need re-evaluation from Square. Slashing debuff literally means nothing because 99% of parties have WAR/NIN. You can clear with both jobs, but why would you want to? It's like taking a $90,000 salary job with 0 benefits (SAM/BLM) vs. an $85,000 one that has 6 weeks paid vacation among other various benefits (rDPS).

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top dps was ment ofc on fflogs, where sam has dropped out a lot compared to previous patches.(even if sam top there didn't fix the meta, atleast sam could shine and still had value)

but true, the problem is also having mnk buffed too much... , sam needs a buff AND mnk need a slight nerf (like smn got a slight nerf, in that direction), mnk is just too strong for its utility atm

and btw, top fflogs top player damage dps class will never be fully part of the meta / speedkill..., it would make the class too desired

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

"Selfish" damage-dealing IS as rDPS efficient as indirect contributors so long as they produce the same rDPS. It doesn't matter -- at all -- where that rDPS comes from.

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I'm not arguing that pDPS can't equate to the overall contribution that rDPS can; it can and does, but you're speaking as if FFLogs and ACT don't exist. My point, exaggerated or not, was that even low-tier players who can barely perform a rotation of any coherence are locking out SAM & BLM from PF due to the meta mindset.

The vast majority of players are convinced they need a NIN & DRG to clear content efficiently. Most people know any job is capable contributing to overall DPS (even if it comes through pDPS), but they want to see their own numbers go up. If TA & BL are what helps them achieve orange on FFLogs so they can feel better about themselves and have an easier time applying to statics, then of course they're going to want only that in their parties.

agree! ... many want nin and drg just to buff their own dps (so their fflogs looks better), that's also a main problem..

and why some wont take blm or/and sam in the comps .... or max only one of the two... (forced to go smn in kill/ farm pfs)..

well, every sam should learn mnk too, even if they don't master it fully... (just like every blm should learn smn or rdm too), ..its a reality -.-'

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Originally Posted by aozoranoyume

I'm not arguing that pDPS can't equate to the overall contribution that rDPS can; it can and does, but you're speaking as if FFLogs and ACT don't exist. My point, exaggerated or not, was that even low-tier players who can barely perform a rotation of any coherence are locking out SAM & BLM from PF due to the meta mindset.

The vast majority of players are convinced they need a NIN & DRG to clear content efficiently. Most people know any job is capable contributing to overall DPS (even if it comes through pDPS), but they want to see their own numbers go up. If TA & BL are what helps them achieve orange on FFLogs so they can feel better about themselves and have an easier time applying to statics, then of course they're going to want only that in their parties.

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The only point you can fix that you're balancing not around actual raid damage and viability therefor, but the ability to pad (ironically enough) personal DPS. That is not something XIV's developers should be required to do. The party's clear speed should be enough; personal DPS percentiles should be irrelevant. If the community remains that backwards at that point that they would, given the chance, sacrifice raid DPS for their own personal logs, so be it, the idea of class choice is essentially irredeemable, because by being dependent on other's bonuses you reduce what's actually expected of you personally and therefore the fflogs cap likely for your class. Can't take the 7k dps Monk because too many people are used to being padded to 5.5k, despite a 1k net loss. Whoopdeedo?

The funny thing is that the solution to that issue is the same thing that would make indirect damage look all the more attractive in itself -- allocating all bonus damage caused to the person who applied the (de)buff, not the persons embonused. It also makes actual contribution all the more obvious, and therefore actual balance all the more obvious... Likewise an official parser would at least heavily discourage those who haven't the skill to even interact with or really understand the benefits of a given meta from taking second-hand statements as common sense without having any of the sense of it themselves and push them towards a position where they better could understand the reality of it. But alas, DPS-mania and rigid guidelines are applied even by those who can't decently dps because parsers aren't DADT, despite FFlogs being a world of the best padded... Contradictions are always fun.

personal high fflogs dps > speed kills

that reality counts for the majority of dps

sure, hitting an enrage timer multiple times can alter that at the moment, but even there "personal good performance" is more valuable than a pure meta comp in most cases

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

personal high fflogs dps > speed kills

that reality counts for the majority of dps

sure, hitting an enrage timer multiple times can alter that at the moment, but even there "personal good performance" is more valuable than a pure meta comp in most cases

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But at present "personal good performance" is class-based and player-competitive, rather than proximity to any true theoretical best anyways. /sigh

Just adding a tiny little comment..

I would love it if an enhanced enpi after a Yaten didn't break an active combo..

I don't think we will see any gameplay adjustments to it really, just some potency tweaks.

if you raid, or do any of the content that actually matters... it’s rly not that hard to comprehend the fact that the community doesn’t care about your pDPS as long as your class has utility that will altar their pDPS as selfish as that may sound, it’s 100% the case, if you want to find a decent to HC group atleast. That being said, I would love for SE to make something like Battle Litany a role action for all melees if they reaaally want to make things "equal". I would even be ok with them making both Battle & Trick role actions; thus balancing SAM with DRG and NIN, giving them pretty equal damage overall - obviously making SAM alittle more powerful though because of everything else NIN and DRG already offer to the comp.

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Originally Posted by aozoranoyume

SAM will never be "top" even if their pDPS is eventually a couple hundred above MNK. Most PFs don't want SAM *or* BLM so yes, both of these jobs need re-evaluation from Square. Slashing debuff literally means nothing because 99% of parties have WAR/NIN. You can clear with both jobs, but why would you want to? It's like taking a $90,000 salary job with 0 benefits (SAM/BLM) vs. an $85,000 one that has 6 weeks paid vacation among other various benefits (rDPS).

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Adding to the Slashing aspect. People forget it's a straight DPS loss for SAM to apply it. Either you gimp the raid by doing your standard 3-Sen opener or gimp yourself by using Yukikaze early, thus Midare won't align with the tail end of other buffs. For a job whose only purpose is high damage, it's hilariously ironic the one non-role skill it offers actually hurts itself. Slashing on SAM really feels tacked on so the devs can claim it gives something.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Adding to the Slashing aspect. People forget it's a straight DPS loss for SAM to apply it. Either you gimp the raid by doing your standard 3-Sen opener or gimp yourself by using Yukikaze early, thus Midare won't align with the tail end of other buffs. For a job whose only purpose is high damage, it's hilariously ironic the one non-role skill it offers actually hurts itself. Slashing on SAM really feels tacked on so the devs can claim it gives something.

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If Yukikaze were at least uniquely self-buffed or always acted as if slashing was applied it'd feel less painful to open with a pre-pop Meikyou Yuki-Shi-Ka, but there's no doubt it's been designed only as a last resort, much like NIN was compared to WAR when Dancing Edge was still required separately from stronger DPS rotations.

Buff speculation: Samurai will get a potency increase. Then other classes will complain that they aren't topping meters, Samurai are doing too much damage (like they complained when SB first came out) and they'll get buffed to deal equal damage plus have utility. Then the cycle will repeat itself.

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com

This one is for shurrikhan, it's a neat resource that calculates rDPS contributions per player, and shows rDPS+pDPS-cDPS (contributed dps from other players) of each player based on uploaded fflogs.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com

This one is for shurrikhan, it's a neat resource that calculates rDPS contributions per player, and shows rDPS+pDPS-cDPS (contributed dps from other players) of each player based on uploaded fflogs.

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Dang, nice. Now if only this were an option embedded in fflogs itself.

...And in an eventual official in-game relative potency parser...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Dang, nice. Now if only this were an option embedded in fflogs itself.

...And in an eventual official in-game relative potency parser...

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Yeah, I agree completely. FFLogs is popular and really good at what it does--providing data on a large (relative) scale, but this app proves it's not showing the whole picture, and it kind of needs to. An ingame variant would only be the icing on top.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Yeah, I agree completely. FFLogs is popular and really good at what it does--providing data on a large (relative) scale, but this app proves it's not showing the whole picture, and it kind of needs to. An ingame variant would only be the icing on top.

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Well, there's one mathed out bit of guesswork confirmed:

In the majority of NIN speedruns, NIN has the second lowest raid DPS, following only MCH.
Hypercharge may have increased multiplicity for big bursts, but following its latest unnecessary nerf, it does not seem to be stacking up well against the entirety of a permanent DHit buff, a further DHit CD, and Foe Requiem to boot.

Whereas DRG in double-ranged setups is doing pretty much exactly what everyone though it was. That said, great BLMs and especially MNKs are also just as I thought they might be for comps somewhat optimized towards them (Contagion and full Physical, respectively)...

Now if Samurai and Red Mage could just join the fray...

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I know this isn't a RDM thread, but so long as the tyranny of verraise is around, there'll be player revolts from people who overblow it's general usefulness if there are ever any buffs. Claire's post in that thread perfectly elucidates my feelings on raising in combat for prog, though.

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Didn't'cha'know? We need more than 3 instant Raises per minute, and preferably from the already most mana-strapped of the three casters at that. Surely that rate of massacre is still recoverable and contributes to meaningful learning...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Now if Samurai and Red Mage could just going the fray...

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I know this isn't a RDM thread, but so long as the tyranny of verraise is around, there'll be player revolts from people who overblow it's general usefulness if there are ever any buffs. Claire's post in that thread perfectly elucidates my feelings on raising in combat for prog, though.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

https://xivrdps.herokuapp.com
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That's a VERY nice tool and I'll use it from now on.
After browsing through some logs looking to see how BLM does. Well actually they do rather well. DRG is broken and I was expecting MCH to do more. I've seen a few log where the BLM was actually higher than the Nin (probly not a very optimised group but still)
It's funny how being with a MCH / BRD makes the DRG rdps skyrocket.

I just wonder, is there anyway to know how the app process crit buff? Is it just some sort of ratio? The thing with crit buff is that there is no way to tell if your crit is due to the buff or not. (for instance I've had a few attempts where I didn't crit once during battle lythany + chain stratagem duration, fairly rare occurence I'll give u that)

As a samurai main there is afew QoL and buff I wish to see

Personally I don't think samurai need a huge buff but a fix rather then a buff

One of the few things are enpi does not break chain combo
Cap-closer does not cost ki

And finally seigan I feel it should be a 500 potecy and cost 25 ki

This is all the buff I want to see

Make seigan worth using please.....

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

Personally I don't think samurai need a huge buff but a fix rather then a buff

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Have to disagree.
At top tier play our counterpart Monk is outdpsing/or doing equal amount of dps as samurai, while giving a buff to any physical Dps(Which lines up with war IR iirc). We need a huge buff In my opinion, of course, your opinion is still valid.

I do agree with the seigan buff; its a skill we can't use at will and yet, it only increases our dps by so little.
500 sounds nice but I'll say leave the kenki the same as part of the reason its worth using in the first place is the low kenki cost...though that low of a cost is probably a bit op for it to be 500, so maybe 400 or 350.

Your other suggestions are nice QoL changes too. I see a lot of people want enpi to not break combo.

From what I read. They are looking into increasing its DPS only.

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Originally Posted by Aniond

From what I read. They are looking into increasing its DPS only.

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How much dps are we talking about ? 500?

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

How much dps are we talking about ? 500?

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They tend to like making uptime easier and giving around 3-4% overall buff. Seeing as Samurai doesn't really have any flow / uptime issues, probably looking at potency buffs to the main weaponskills, or increasing Jinpu's damage buff by 5% (Which would effectively be going from 110% -> 115%, or about a 4.5% damage buff)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

They tend to like making uptime easier and giving around 3-4% overall buff. Seeing as Samurai doesn't really have any flow / uptime issues, probably looking at potency buffs to the main weaponskills, or increasing Jinpu's damage buff by 5% (Which would effectively be going from 110% -> 115%, or about a 4.5% damage buff)

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As sad as I'll be that underlying issues won't be solved, at least damage increases to the main weaponskills -- rather than oGCDs not generated proportionately to attack speed like Guren or the effective damage from Hagakure, for instance -- will mean greater SkS viability.

Now if only Monk wasn't so oGCD-dominant, I could actually enjoy it's gameplay without painfully nerfing my damage (not absolutely horribly, but quite noticeably, especially as Crit rarely appears alongside SkS this tier).

My opinion Samurai just need flat potency increases for the time being. I would rather not see Seigan get buffed and I believe Square Enix agrees because they don't like skills on dps that encourage you to play reckless in exchange for a dps increase I think the minor increase it gives is fine as is lets say Shinten gets raised to 400 potency then I would want Seigan to be increased by 100 as well. I would rather that Third Eye mitigate more damage and feel more satisfying to use but not through Seigan usage and Im not really sure what I would waant for now. I do know that I want potency increases and I feel the potency needs to raise alot enough to be equal to Monk+Brotherhood

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Originally Posted by Aniond

From what I read. They are looking into increasing its DPS only.

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If it follows in a similar way they did on BLM, it will be nice. Mind you SAM will still be not desired but at least not worthless.

expect them to buff sam a tick like Blm got buffed... but aswell maybe nerf mnk a tick, like smn got nerfed ... or nerfed abit less than smn got nerfed... (smn was really OP)

but possibly the mnk mini nerf will happen abit later.., SE wants more players on mnk again,.. and not just switching to sam again, as soon as sam gets its buff...or sam won't get a buff soon

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when sam gets buffed, like blm did, it will be a bit more desirable than blm.:

sam has slashing atleast, its physical so mnks would prefere a sam over a 2nd caster or any caster, drg would rather buff a sam than a blm /caster with dragon sight, blm are not party friendly (stay of my leylines, heal me when i dint stack/ when i didnt move into aoe heals, I wont move / you move for mechanic, takes longer to get good numbers than sam in raids etc..)

Here's hoping for our buffs in the upcoming patch.
*edit* Welp, guess we're waiting for it in 4.3.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Here's hoping for our buffs in the upcoming patch.
*edit* Welp, guess we're waiting for it in 4.3.

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Yeah, I figured we'd get nothing today. They tend to make class changes when new raid content comes out.

My speculation is that you will be given a small buff or QoL changes but nothing major, you will still not be wanted in parties but you will be less worthless than you are now.

I see people saying Seigan should have a higher potency etc.
But personally I think what would be more interesting is if it cost nothing and was a 'counter' attack type of move. So Merciful Eyes and Seigan would have the same 15 second CD, activated immediately once you block the damage, you just picked which one you wanted prior to taking the hit. Could then apply different guard % to each one separately, so Seigan prevents less damage, and Mercy Eyes prevents more.

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Originally Posted by Runaes

I see people saying Seigan should have a higher potency etc.
But personally I think what would be more interesting is if it cost nothing and was a 'counter' attack type of move. So Merciful Eyes and Seigan would have the same 15 second CD, activated immediately once you block the damage, you just picked which one you wanted prior to taking the hit. Could then apply different guard % to each one separately, so Seigan prevents less damage, and Mercy Eyes prevents more.

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Third Eye should have a significant damage reduction tied to it. Something absurd like 30, maybe even 50%. It's a small window for a single hit.

The Samurai's unique feature could simply be that -it doesn't !@#%ing die- when something looks at them the wrong way.

I have 2 ideas that I think could work. 1- have the slashing debuff be slashing piercing and blunt resistant damage down. This makes it so they can be in drg spot and also in a pt with a monk the monk could avoid using dragon kick after the first use and then get the dps increase of all the bootshines. 2- since Sam is a selfish dps why do they not get bigger boosts from other classes utility? I feel being the dps carry the buff given to them should have bigger effect. Ex: dragon eye would give you 20% instead of 10% or battle litany would give extra crit damage as well OR while trick attack is up Sam does 15 or 20% more dps. Sams do not have party utility (besides slashing but we know we need someone else's not to lose dps) so if square wants their utility to be dps they need to gain more from the buffs that everyone else is getting to make up for the buff that they arnt putting out. This change would also keep their solo damage in check but in a party it would make up for their own lack of utility. Thoughts?

Apparently meh PVP buff changes were more important than what peeps outside of PVP wanted cause #sethinkseveryonedoespvp

Least give Sam some potency buffs.

You guys have to understand that making a potency buff is really hard. You've to open all that code, find the number of the skill then change it. Really hard.