SE, Please consider removing EX trials from the Mentor Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I understand this perfectly, thanks. Please don't put words in my mouth

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Well you certainly don't understand how quotes work, the arrow was pointing at Lokier's post ridiculing people for not knowing those fights, I was not referring to you when I said that.

If you need extra visual help

https://i.imgur.com/U3HWIas.png

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Well you certainly don't understand how quotes work, the arrow was pointing at Lokier's post ridiculing people for not knowing those fights, I was not referring to you when I said that.

If you need extra visual help

https://i.imgur.com/U3HWIas.png

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Just to let you know, the avatars aren't shown with quotes on the mobile version of the forum, so it was likely a genuine misread.

From my understanding, JP players use PF and DF in an almost reverse way from other regions. PF exclusively for newbie clears (for most anything) and DF for grinding content.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Just to let you know, the avatars aren't shown with quotes on the mobile version of the forum, so it was likely a genuine misread.

From my understanding, JP players use PF and DF in an almost reverse way from other regions. PF exclusively for newbie clears (for most anything) and DF for grinding content.

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People actually use mobile site? I use full site even on phone.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

People actually use mobile site? I use full site even on phone.

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I am right now. It's a little less data hungry.

Hey man if you don't want to at least attempt to help the group clear these ex trials then you don't deserve the titles and the mount. It's as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by AppleJinx

Hey man if you don't want to at least attempt to help the group clear these ex trials then you don't deserve the titles and the mount. It's as simple as that.

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Wrong.

/10char

Y'know, I'm gonna admit, I'm apparently a bit of a derp. It didn't even occur to me that people actually queued for the older EX's in the Duty Finder. Not that I've been able to queue for Mentor Roulette ever since HW ended, but I always ended up in the MSQ 4 man dungeons or trials just to help fill groups for sprouts the few times I did do it. I just thought that was essentially what the Mentor Roulette DID, help the new players get through the old mandatory content so they could catch up to the current content. I know that is it's function, but I never even thought sprouts bothered with things like the Coils or Titan Extreme while they were just trying to reach the cap. It should have occurred to me since it required doing EX trials and such to open the roulette, but it just didn't. Guess maybe I shouldn't queue for Mentor Roulette when I unlock it again, I'm thoroughly unprepared to teach potentially 7 other people how to run synced Extremes, hah.

I’m not yet a mentor, but I’d like to be - and I could so easily get there without ever touching an extreme primal fight. I’ve tried them a few times, realised I’m out of my depth, and avoided them since. I couldn’t coach others through it - plus, being on a Japanese server, there’s every chance I can’t even communicate with my roulette team mates. BUT I’d love to be a mentor that can help new players with the earlier parts of the game, without being expected to know my way around high-level content - not until I’ve had more time to learn it myself.

Perhaps there needs to be a setting where mentors can nominate what sort of duties they are comfortable mentoring in?

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Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

Y'know, I'm gonna admit, I'm apparently a bit of a derp. It didn't even occur to me that people actually queued for the older EX's in the Duty Finder.

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Coming through the MSQ now, the EX fight unlock quests are given to you as soon as you beat the hard modes. I didn’t realise just how tough they were until I started doing them.

I can see there is story attached to them, and to the Binding Coil, so I don’t like having to move onward with the game without having completed them and seen what happens. I also had hoped to do them “properly” and not just get my Lv70 friends to squash them - but I may have to.

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Well you certainly don't understand how quotes work, the arrow was pointing at Lokier's post ridiculing people for not knowing those fights, I was not referring to you when I said that.

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There was nothing ridiculing about his post, and your little ^ arrow could have been pointing to either of us.

Maybe you should arrange your post a little better if you don't want people to get confused about what/who you mean.

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I can see there is story attached to them, and to the Binding Coil, so I don’t like having to move onward with the game without having completed them and seen what happens.

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It's less of a "story" reason and more of a "throwaway excuse for why there's a third version of the same fight", really.

"Why are we doing X rehash of this thing we already did before?"
"Ascians/Allagans/Moogles, that's why"

Coil though, yeah, that one actually makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Coming through the MSQ now, the EX fight unlock quests are given to you as soon as you beat the hard modes. I didn’t realise just how tough they were until I started doing them.

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I was actually hoping to eventually get a group in my FC near the end of the expack to go do Minimum ilvl of all the old stuff just to experience it, cause I never did. There's no doubt in my mind that the Coils were super fun when they were current, I just wasn't there. I kinda don't think it'll happen, but it'd be fun if it did.

They fix that, however, by just making the MSQ fights the hardmodes by default, and the EX versions are us playing out the Wandering Minstrel's over embellished retellings of our exploits.

The deal with the original EX primals is that there really wasn't a concrete format on them, so they were literally tacked on.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

As long as we have people like this



I think the worry is reasonable. People like ^ don't understand that not everyone has been playing the game since launch.

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I'm sorry, what? I think you misunderstood my statement...

WTF even is this thread? Extreme Trials are the BEST PART of Mentor Roulette! I even wish they had an Extreme Trial roulette that gave daily rewards. I would grind that whenever I felt bored with the game, because let's face it - what else is there to do???

If you only do unsyned content, or only do it for the rewards, I think you should seriously take a step back and consider WHY YOU EVEN BOTHER PLAYING THIS GAME!

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

WTF even is this thread? Extreme Trials are the BEST PART of Mentor Roulette! I even wish they had an Extreme Trial roulette that gave daily rewards. I would grind that whenever I felt bored with the game, because let's face it - what else is there to do???

If you only do unsyned content, or only do it for the rewards, I think you should seriously take a step back and consider WHY YOU EVEN BOTHER PLAYING THIS GAME!

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Because people sometimes like to turn off their brains and have a good time? Just because people don't enjoy things you don't enjoy doesn't make them wrong.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

If you only do unsyned content, or only do it for the rewards, I think you should seriously take a step back and consider WHY YOU EVEN BOTHER PLAYING THIS GAME!

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I think you missed the part where Yoshi-P himself encourages people to run content unsynced once that option becomes available if they don't care to try it when it's relevant content. So if the game creator encourages that behavior, I don't see why you're all up in arms

i have played a lot of arr and hw ex primals in mentor roulette. just have to give people instructions and it is easy

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

If you only do unsyned content, or only do it for the rewards, I think you should seriously take a step back and consider WHY YOU EVEN BOTHER PLAYING THIS GAME!

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Im playing because I like the world and the story. I like the gameplay as well of course, but I’m not driven to beat hard optional content just for the sake of beating it.

So first question, why be a mentor if you can't even do EX trials? Second question, why be a mentor if you intend to dip out of some fights?

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

So first question, why be a mentor if you can't even do EX trials? Second question, why be a mentor if you intend to dip out of some fights?

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Being mentor does not require you to do anything. If you don't want to run something, you simply don't. Who are you to decide what I (or any mentor) do or don't? I still mentor plenty of other content. Does that make me any less of a mentor? No.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Being mentor does not require you to do anything. If you don't want to run something, you simply don't. Who are you to decide what I do or don't? I still mentor plenty of other content. Does that make me any less of a mentor? No.

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If you queue for mentor roulette and dip out because you're not happy with what SE has given you to do, you totally do not deserve to be a mentor. I do atleast 1 mentor roulette a day and sure, I'll hit the occasional Aery, Trial EX or whichever dungeon I loathe running through. I suck it up anyways because that's what's being a mentor is about, helping others before helping yourself.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

So first question, why be a mentor if you can't even do EX trials?

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Let me answer that question with another question.

Why do you assume it's the mentor that can't do the trial and not the other members that are maybe getting mad at the mentor for DARING to say what a mechanic does?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Let me answer that question with another question.

Why do you assume it's the mentor that can't do the trial and not the other members that are maybe getting mad at the mentor for DARING to say what a mechanic does?

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Actually, quite a good point. But from experience most mentors can't/won't do EX Trials while level synced so I'd say the probability of that is higher. Your experience might be totally different though.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

So first question, why be a mentor if you can't even do EX trials? Second question, why be a mentor if you intend to dip out of some fights?

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You can be a Mentor and never clear a single Ex trial. You can still help people by answering questions about the game in the Novice Network or in the content you do run.
You simply wouldn't have access to Mentor Roulette without the Exes.

I do stick around and try to help when I get an Ex Trial, but I'd estimate only about a 30% clear rate or so. A lot of the time people get frustrated and vote abandon after a few wipes anyways.

Edit: I'll give an example of the Garuda Ex I got in Mentor Roulette today on WHM. First attempt new tank pulls before I can explain anything, Garuda is held in the middle facing the party, pillars are heavily damaged and many dps are hit by slipstream before the adds even spawn. Wipe after the adds spawn and aren't separated.

Next attempt, I explain that the main tank should take Sup north with Garuda, offtank should take Chi south. Neither tank listens and both the adds are left on DPS that don't separate them so we wipe again.

Third attempt I explain the positioning again and the tanks somewhat get it. The pillars are heavily damaged though so we lose some dps to the ultimate. Once the spiny spawns I say not to touch it and someone else marked it with the "target to ignore" sign. Most of the party seems to get it and kills the rest of the feathers but then a Red Mage decides to kill Spiny once the others are dead in spite of many people in the party telling them to stop. We did have a couple of survivors thanks to the echo but then the adds spawned and the tanks once again didn't try to separate them. Wipe.

After that 2 people left and the group vote abandoned. Now, the group was improving and I would have no problem in staying the full time or until we cleared. But I can understand the frustration of Mentors that don't want to deal with people that don't listen in content where mistakes can lead to wipes.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

If you queue for mentor roulette and dip out because you're not happy with what SE has given you to do, you totally do not deserve to be a mentor. I do atleast 1 mentor roulette a day and sure, I'll hit the occasional Aery, Trial EX or whichever dungeon I loathe running through. I suck it up anyways because that's what's being a mentor is about, helping others before helping yourself.

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You don't get to say what I do and what I don't deserve. Get over yourself because you are salty.

A lot of the EX's fail because there are a lot of people with access to mentor roulette who got carried through that content.
The end result is they leave once the EX loads or after a few wipes or they pass a vote abandon with others who dont need the clear.Generally the ones that need the clear are the ones still there when you join it in progress.
They basically need to put a harsher punishment to mentor roulette for leaving on purpose and to encourage them to act in the manner they agreed to when they accepted becoming a mentor from the NPC.

I'm sure this varies by datacenter, the kind of groups you get. Mentors can clear ex fights and did need to do so to unlock the roulette... but you can be thrown into no-win situations a lot.

Dodge ability can't be mentored and the first time players who queue for those trials on DF don't know how much harder extreme is than hard mode and come unprepared for playing on a level where attacks must be dodged and mechanics known.

Also common to get French-only players on eu datacenter despite queuing with English as the only DF language selected; not being able to sufficiently communicate all of the fight mechanics using auto-translate.

So imagine you get an impossible to win party, then get dozens more parties like that. You can start with good intentions but eventually you'll join that club who questions whether those things should be in roulette or open to solo-queue DF matchmaking at all when PF is much better for things that need communication and coordination.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Because people sometimes like to turn off their brains and have a good time? Just because people don't enjoy things you don't enjoy doesn't make them wrong.

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Then don't do Mentor Roulette.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I think you missed the part where Yoshi-P himself encourages people to run content unsynced once that option becomes available if they don't care to try it when it's relevant content. So if the game creator encourages that behavior, I don't see why you're all up in arms

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Nope. That makes no sense. Please stop trying.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Im playing because I like the world and the story. I like the gameplay as well of course, but I’m not driven to beat hard optional content just for the sake of beating it.

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Then don't do it. Or if you're going to do it, don't use Mentor Roulette to do it. After all, "you're not driven to beat it". But wait, you're not driven to beat it, yet you still go ahead and unsync it? Uh... uhm, like... lol?



Anyone else got any actual arguments? lol

If anything the recent MSQ Roulette changes suggest that the SE design philosophy (correctly) favors the newbie queuing for the content because they’re new to it and/or want to try it in DF versus favoring the convenience of the roulette veteran who’s queuing for his 1000th roulette and just wants his easy tomes/cheevo points.

As removing the EX primals would worsen the game experience of the former group (by creating dozens of fights where the queue would no longer pop for lack of people enrolling in it) no, I don’t think your proposed change will be implemented.

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Originally Posted by Emstidor

If anything the recent MSQ Roulette changes suggest that the SE design philosophy (correctly) favors the newbie queuing for the content because they’re new to it and/or want to try it in DF versus favoring the convenience of the roulette veteran who’s queuing for his 1000th roulette and just wants his easy tomes/cheevo points.

As removing the EX primals would worsen the game experience of the former group (by creating dozens of fights where the queue would no longer pop for lack of people enrolling in it) no, I don’t think your proposed change will be implemented.

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SE's design philosophy seems to be letting the newbie sit for hours on a queue that will either never pop, or when it does people just leave as soon as the duty starts and they are back to waiting hours for replacements/requeue.

IMO that makes for a far worse game experience than informing people how to use Party Finder to get a group of people that actually is willing to run this kind of content.

Mentor roulette wasn't even programmed to pair you up with newbies, but just to fill queues that have been looking for members for the longest time.

I don't feel like making my own thread, so I'm tacking what I want to say onto this one.

Because of the recent news of MSQ roulette changes, I feel like it may be time for SE to reconsider how they do their rewards in Mentor Roulette for both the 2000 mentor roulette achievement, and just the daily bonus in general.

Right now, when a mentor gets into mentor roulette, their reward for completion of the mentor roulette is the same regardless of what you end up getting. A 24 man raid is the same as a guildhest, which is the same as a EX Trial. You get a set amount of verity/creation regardless and 1 point into your 2000/2000 achievement. However a guildhest takes 2 minutes worth of your time and is super easy, while an EX Trial could take someone the full 60 minutes to complete. Because of the drastic differences in time and frustration, people will just leave something that takes a long time to do without even thinking about it.

Because of this I strongly feel like they should rework the rewards for mentor roulette to incentivize players to maybe stick around in duties that take a little longer and are harder.

Instead of having everything be worth one point towards the 2000 roulette achievement, maybe change it to a system that looks more like the following-

Guildhest: 1 Point and the same amount of roulette bonus
Hard Mode Trials: 2 Points and the same amount of roulette bonus
Normal Mode 8 Man Raids: 3 Points and the same amount of roulette bonus
Dungeons: 5 points and double the roulette bonus
24 Man Raids: 8 points and double the roulette bonus
MSQ Castrum and Praetorium: 11 points and triple the roulette bonus
EX Trials/Old 8 man Savage Raids/ Coil: 12 points and triple the roulette bonus

These changes would help incentize those who have very little interest in helping people as a mentor to maybe stick around in some of the more painful roulettes instead of just dropping and taking the penalty.

"Well those people shouldn't be queuing for mentor roulette in the first place!", well whether you like it or not, those people are going to be queuing for it because of the rewards, and I believe the vast majority of those people who are queuing for the reward are doing it for the 2000 mentor roulette achievement.

"Well if they are just going to leave duties, we should just ban them from being mentors!" Ultimately the goal of Mentor Roulette is to populate queue's that lack people. Banning people from using the system will just lower the pool of people who would populate those low queues, everything would just have less people in it. If you change the incentives to be more enticing, people would stick around for things they wouldn't have before.

Ultimately though, this does not affect me at all. I already finished my 2000/2000 achievement and am never doing mentor roulette again. This suggestion is mainly to help the potential problem that I see coming up here pretty soon, which is people in mentor roulette instantly leaving MSQ dungeons because there is not enough incentive to do them.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Nope. That makes no sense. Please stop trying.

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The game creator: we're ok with you people playing this a certain way
you: NOT ALLOWED!
Ok then.

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Originally Posted by Ashiee

Ultimately though, this does not affect me at all. I already finished my 2000/2000 achievement and am never doing mentor roulette again.

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Right off the bat just have to say congrats to you on your shiny mount. Glad you got there. Big wins.

Are you honestly serious with this quote? Do you have literally no shame? You became a mentor for the mount and now that you've got it... what is it for?

This person right here is the reason that this stupid mount should be separated from the mentorship program entirely. I'm all for some daily tomestones like any roulette but beyond that I don't think incentivizing people to run content is going to get you quality players that care about the progression of sprouts instead it's going to get you selfish people who want a mount and then admittedly will never touch the roulette again.

I've been really against this whole "mentors are bad/toxic players" stereotype because that isn't what I want for this program and I'd love to see it actually mean something to be a mentor even if it means I need to lose my status currently and jump through some more hoops to get it again. This sort of mentality is nothing short of disgusting though and if these sorts of people represent the bulk of the mentor community I'd be happy to see the whole thing scrapped.

As to the actual proposal I'm hard-pressed to find something more entitled on these forums outside of a healer dps debate. All these suggestions only increase the rewards - why aren't things like guildhests, dungeons and normal trials worth less since the vast majority of the time any given pug group can clear these with no issue? I don't think I've disbanded a dungeon, guildhest or trial ever, why should someone recieve a bunch of credit towards their mount for joining an in-progress 24 man raid because someone before them DC'd?

All in all one of the worst ideas I've ever read on here the entire time I've played the game much less participated in the OF.

But congrats again on that sweet pegasus

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Are you honestly serious with this quote? Do you have literally no shame? You became a mentor for the mount and now that you've got it... what is it for?

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You can be a mentor just fine without the roulette even being unlocked, I haven't had access to it since SB hit and they added the HW ex trials which I haven't done yet. Still got my shiny crown I don't use, still help newbies. Stop reducing the mentor role to the roulette.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You can be a mentor just fine without the roulette even being unlocked, I haven't had access to it since SB hit and they added the HW ex trials which I haven't done yet. Still got my shiny crown I don't use, still help newbies. Stop reducing the mentor role to the roulette.

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I never reduced it to the roulette and if that's all you got from that post godspeed, I have no time for you.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This person right here is the reason that this stupid mount should be separated from the mentorship program entirely. I'm all for some daily tomestones like any roulette but beyond that I don't think incentivizing people to run content is going to get you quality players that care about the progression of sprouts instead it's going to get you selfish people who want a mount and then admittedly will never touch the roulette again.

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And I'm going to agree with you here, I don't think the mount should be in mentor roulette at all. I think the mentor program should just be for helping people in general but because there is a reward, people are going to abuse it. If they took it out of the roulette entirely it would probably make the system just about helping people, which is what it should be. Of course, if it was like that there would be a big pool of people who wouldn't be queuing for it either.

But I don't see forsee them removing it any time soon, so that is why I proposed a solution to maybe be less of a burden to everyone. People who hate EX Trials who would leave immediately before might stick around because it is more worth their time.

... And just FYI, I didn't even do it because I wanted the mount. I just wanted the 20 achievement points because OCD. Not that it makes it any better, even if they took the mount away i'd still try and get the achievement. I personally didn't want to be a mentor at all, but I have been collecting achievement points since 1.0 /shrug. If they didn't put points on the achievements I probably wouldn't have ever queued for mentor int he first place.

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Originally Posted by Ashiee

Ultimately the goal of Mentor Roulette is to populate queue's that lack people.

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Correct.

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Originally Posted by Ashiee

I already finished my 2000/2000 achievement and am never doing mentor roulette again.

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Which is why the change you suggest won't be implemented. Nerfed achievement -> faster completion -> less people queueing

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I'm all for some daily tomestones like any roulette but beyond that I don't think incentivizing people to run content is going to get you quality players that care about the progression of sprouts

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The roulette is there to fill queues. That's all. If they remove or nerf the rewards, fewer people will queue.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

because that isn't what I want for this program and I'd love to see it actually mean something to be a mentor

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Okay, but what you want the mentor program to be and what it's for might be two different things.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

Correct.
Which is why the change you suggest won't be implemented. Nerfed achievement -> faster completion -> less people queueing

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Unfortunately, this is probably true. Though, even if they did implement it, and your doing the hardest duty every time, you would still end up having to do 200 runs, which is a lot.

I'm just here to virtue signal a bit and tell you I am a more moral person than everyone in the room because I did 2000 mentor roulettes from the kidness of my heart and not for the Astrope /s
If people could just be silent, really when it comes to a reward for spending frigging a solid 800 HOURS with new people in all kinds of content, that would be great. If you haven't done it, you don't understand. Spending that much time on something justifies that mount. Hell, you don't even have to be mentoring people. The willingness to be queued in the most boring, frustrating and garbage instances 2000 times is enough.

I would welcome those changes, if they increase the number of "points" from 2.000 up to 10.000

otherwise it would be too fast and easy in comparison to how it is right now