I'm inclined to disagree. Despite all the skills being gone, the revamp to pvp made it more of a team based game, where strategies are definitely needed in order to win because it's so simplified. You've got to have a good awareness and quick reactions to be able to compete with high tier players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia
Just use Aether League as an example of that. It's not a solo based game anymore. When LP comes out, you'll be able to see first hand what team oriented games can actually do. And trust me, players are playing way better now than ever before.
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01-13-2018, 05:00 AMAchaNoYumi
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01-13-2018, 05:57 AMWintersandmanIt has always been a team based game. Also players aren't playing better outside of feast. Frontlines and Astragalos, people are generally worse. I can't speak to Feast since I don't participate. It wasn't a solo game before and if anything it was more team based. I don't see how this information is based.Quote:
Originally Posted by AchaNoYumi
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01-13-2018, 07:36 AMThirdChild_ZKIThings I've said in actual matches:Quote:
Originally Posted by AchaNoYumi
"Please don't drop off cliffs when the enemy is already below. You'll just be at half health and easy to pick off."
"MCHs, fully loading ammo before battle locks you out of heat generation for 3 shots, and prevents you from being able to deal higher damage right away."
"Don't ignore half dead enemies for ice. They can't score from it if they're not alive to."
"Please get off your mount before you're in range of the enemy."
"It's not the color of your team that matters, it's how well you play."
"Um. . . Freelancer only applies to Frontlines. That's why it's called Frontline Freelancer."
"There's more to this than just capping mid."
"Please read your maps."
"Please focus the marked target."
"Please focus the NEAR DEAD marked target."
"You have plenty of time to try and come back. Keep fighting."
Shall I go on?
P.S. The best part is being told how wrong you are about some of these, when you know you aren't. -
01-14-2018, 12:09 PMNedkel
The less mechanics and game skill is needed in the game, the more skill it is needed to overcome someone.
If you both playing on the same rules and know each other moves, its becoming a real challenge to fight against him and more skill to overpower him.
Since you cant use a cheesy moves against him, because you both know all the stuff you could do, so micromanaging and manual skills starts to be more important than knowledge.
The better player will still win the match, but not as easly as before, isnt it a good way to go on pvp design?
Lowering the skill ceilling is increasing the challenge, you cant win as easly as before against everyone. So i believe you people dont like it, because its not as easy to win the game as before, am i correct? :P
The pvp may had more buttons to press, but that doesnt mean it was any harder to execute combos and burst damage than in PVE. So the team with lesser knowledge about their abilities was losing.
btw
I actually enjoy that my PLD is a little different in PVP than it is on PVE, whenever i am off of playing pve i jump to pvp and enjoy the game like a brand new. -
01-14-2018, 02:13 PMThirdChild_ZKIUm. . . what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
This was entirely possible even before 4.0 changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
If it was in your kit and usable in PvP, there were no "cheesy" moves. However understanding what your opponent can/can't do counts as being knowledgeable. All the micromanaging you can do doesn't make up for not knowing what to do or how to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
9 times out of 10, the better player will still win, and perhaps still with ease. But when kits have been horribly imbalanced from what they were before, or perhaps skills that could be used to burst down an enemy aren't even available, or hell, even when a job like MCH can attain a Battle High just pressing one button, then no, that's not good PvP design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
I'm sorry, but no. When your opponent largely still doesn't know what to do, there is no challenge. When a player can blindly spam skills and perhaps get good results, then there's no challenge or necessity to learn or improve. And we don't like it because it's not as easy to win (it's arguably easier now with all the players that don't know, don't want to know, don't NEED to know, and don't care anyways), we don't like it because it was a huge step in the wrong direction, especially after seeing that it was entirely possible for new people to pick it up and learn to play and play well back in 3.5. It would be like having 4.1 SMN go back to being 4.0 SMN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
This supports our statements regarding how 3.x was better. Yes, it IS generally easier to execute burst damage in PvP, and the combos being consolidated to one button is easier (for melees anyways). But not every job needed that change. And yes, as it should be, the team with less knowledge of their kit/abilities would be less likely to win. Unfortunately, imbalances in the 4.0 system don't require or encourage a player to be good, especially not when healing generally eclipses damage, and CC skills are so short they don't have much impact at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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01-14-2018, 04:41 PMAriaFairchildThis post is so wrong on many levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
Pre-4.x, the wide variety of skills for each job (including the PvP-only skills) allowed each job to be able to adapt to a variety of situations, and thus was pretty balanced (in their respective role, of course), tho of course some can do certain things better. For example, DRK, considered the underdog of tanks in 3.x, was pretty good in what it can do (tho required much more work to pull the same level of effectiveness as PLD or WAR) - a well-timed Carnal Chill can save souls, and well-placed Tarpit/Unleash can stop dead a retreat in Frontlines.
This situation changed in 4.x. With the reduction to 9 skills, and with devs' inability to conceive what is good for each job, it has created a situation when one kit is far superior to others of the same role. Take a look at NIN's kit: it has almost every CC, has insane mobility...with stealth 2.0 (can run in normal speed, and if you sprint before stealth kicks in, you get to keep the sprint too). Now look at MNK's kit: it's a pile of hot garbage, with almost zero sustain, zero disengage - a job for the most masochistic (sadistic?) of players who love to hear the death groan of their character.
When every job has a kit that can fare well against each other, then we can talk about skill. Lowering the skill ceiling? Yea, it's so low that there's only so much you can do with it...it's like you have the ability to go to PhD yet your government says that the highest level of education is 5th grade. -
01-14-2018, 05:56 PMRiyahArp
IDK bout this. I remember in Seal Rock bards debating whether or not it was better to keep wanderers on, only to find out with it off you did less damage than a mch's turret if you were out of the sweet spot. DOTS were just a tax to make sure sidewinder did full potency, as they could be outhealed and even aoe spam could be. BLM for one was ridiculous in terms of skill; you had a huge learning curve just to use enochian, and a lot of people just ignored the HW abilities, and thunder spammed since its procs were better damage than trying to use enochian at all.
not even sure how good monk was, it had all the issues of trying to maintain GL the PvE version had, and only was good because at the time it had a ton of OGCDs. NIN's stealth if anything was worse because they had no real counter to it save alert; you could know a nin was stealth camping your base and could do nothing because alert's radius was so tiny and only two jobs had it. Plus melee in general sucked a lot more when every job in frontlines could CC you the moment you lunged...ppl forget how much 3.0 was improved from start.
Oh and balanced...ugh, people were complaining so much about scholar being crap tier and whm being OP, because WHM had the best CC and fairies were easily slept or taken care of. It wasn't this wonderland of balance. -
01-14-2018, 08:08 PMAriaFairchild
Yea, SCH was weakest of the 3, but it was still powerful, if you play well you can still pull off something. For 4.0, you can't do that anymore. In 3.x, a good SCH can win against crap WHM or AST. Here the skill ceiling is so low you can't differentiate anymore.
Yea, people complaining about DRK too, and yet if played well could still protect their allies very well.
You could make a difference if you master a non-meta class, comparing to FOTM jumpers.
I'll prefer 3.x state to this 4.x dumbdowned state, thank you. -
01-14-2018, 08:39 PMRiyahArp
No, it wasn't powerful. Neither was AST. people just forget stuff. They just remember the fun time when they discovered pvp and think it had no problems and was the answer to everything. They forget the bad. And you can't make changes based on happy feelings. because not everyone was "oh, wow!" when they played 3.0 pvp. They remember how much fun it was to have one purify to counter 3 stuns and a bind. Or how melee limit breaks took 80% of your health off. Or how OP sleep was, especially for JP players.
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01-14-2018, 09:26 PMThirdChild_ZKILet's see. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
BRDs were insanely powerful in 3.x PvP. The BRD burst could 100-0 someone and if they were trying to play a range game against you (that is, trying to run in and out of your max range) you could just Iron Jaws them and wait them out. Pretty sure no BLM - no GOOD BLM - would ignore HW abilities, especially when a good 2 or 3 Fire IVs could kill someone.
MNK was undisputedly the best melee of that time. An always-on 10% damage mitigation? Silence on command? Insane burst potential even without Fists of Fire? 2 stuns, and a Pacification skill? Yeah, MNK like any other melee required some planning ahead, but you could literally pick a target to go delete, and just do it.
3 jobs had Alert (Detect). The "Dexes": BRD, MCH, and NIN themselves.
Why was WHM considered SO good? SLEEP. A heavy tank cooldown and regen in the form of a puddle (Sacred Prism). Assize being an attack, a heal, AND an MP refresh. And while situational, HOLY: The only other aoe stun in the game.
No, 3.x PvP wasn't perfectly balanced. But stop trying to point out 3.x's imbalance as if 4.0 is somehow better. One need only look at the state of Feast leaderboards, or what the most played ROLE is in Rival Wings. . . Yeah, THEN say something about balance.
Oh, for anyone who thinks AST is ridiculous now, they were even better then. I've seen an AST in 3.x literally survive an entire team of 8 on her from their base back to hers, utilizing the skills of her kit to their fullest to survive and mitigate the entire time. It was amazing to see.
You continue to only look at what was bad, and not what was actually good then, and give erroneous or half-informed facts besides. YOU perhaps didn't like 3.x PvP, but that doesn't mean it wasn't better than 4.0 PvP by a long shot. -
01-14-2018, 11:05 PMCommander_JustitiaMy toolkit was just so much bigger to deal with many situations. As Mnk I could steal all the buffs of tanks or range dps who just popped raging strikes, I could use a skill to increase the cast time of an enemy, I could pacify melees, I could use keen flurry, storms eye to evade and parry other melees while facetargeting them. I could help my healer with mantra and stuns, I could spam silence for a really long time to stop enemy healer or to stop enemy dps. I had to built up resistence down and keep dots up in order to be able to kill something, I couldnt just fall back and wait/hide and kill somebody in 3gcd like it is nowpossible. Being aggressive player paid out, now its often the opposite. What can I do now? I can't even run away if I don't use bolt. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by AchaNoYumi
I see way 2 many people dying in safeguard and tank lb or protect, which are all mitigations around 20%, but if really all players of your team attack at once you have like a 20k dmg spike in 2 GCD, 20% wont stop them from death. Strategies are still needed but your resources to counter them are limited and not very effective, I want my counters to be effective, that is what good awareness is about. -
01-15-2018, 03:44 AMRiyahArp
No, BRD couldn't delete someone, they had an easily telegraphed burst which fell off in damage if you did something as simple as stay in melee range, and you couldn't cast if the target ran behind you. Alert was a joke, period; it had tiny range and a huge cooldown. BLM's original enochian timing was incredibly tight, and enochian had a long cooldown; thunder spam was better because thundercloud procs were instant and much higher damage and DOT than a bard's arrows. Monk may have had all those tools, but they could be shut down with a timed sleep or a bind, until they added fetter ward, and casters could just sprint from them, since they had to spend TP to sprint. And they still had positional damage requirements. Plus, in so much of HW you wound up ignoring virtually all of a job's core mechanics to make use of a tiny subset of abilities.
A lot of the issues we have now were just as present in 3.0. What would be worse would be the floor would be really low; you'd have average players be gimp just because all their pvp abilities were at max cooldown, and they would struggle to contribute at all. A good bard did decent burst damage, a bad one hit you for 300 points a hit with wanderers off and folded in seconds. -
01-15-2018, 05:54 AMEtrius
I'm kinda late for the party since i took a break for a few days...
Lets try to remember that 4.X PvP "balancing" is done through Feast. Large scale battles are just broken without limiting the amount of roles per party. ("The Fold" 4-Healer party flashbacks)
With the focus back on the Feast, your statement is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
The best Healer could always win the match, followed by DPs and then Tanks in terms of responsibility.
It is a flawed design, you can have awesome Tanks and DPS, but the Healer alone can easily drag everyone down.
And by that design, people are still afraid of healing in the Feast or are criticized for being "bad" healers... which is again, bad for queues. -
01-15-2018, 06:56 AMThirdChild_ZKINot only was BRD burst strong, it STILL is even without Farshot. Won't 100-0 someone, but you can still easily hit them for half their HP with it. Alert/Detect wasn't all that useful in the Feast (though I watched many a NIN try to hide before me and would sprint out to their last location and blow Detect to expose them. Did it in Frontlines too), but careful use of it made for good counterstrategy. Yes, I know Enochian had tight timing. BLM was always a very technical job to play in PvP, but those who rose to the occasion were often huge threats if left unchecked.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
And are you saying MNK - arguably the best melee back then - could be shut down. . .with well timed CC skills? You mean to tell me CC skills somehow were effective in countering even the strongest bursts back then? CC skills, which some jobs, MNK itself, are lacking entirely now? No way. . .
And yes, the difference was always knowing how and when to use your kit effectively. People still fail to do that with 9 buttons and less options. Doesn't mean 3.x wasn't better balanced than. . . this. -
01-16-2018, 03:34 AMWintersandmanIn 2.x-3.x PLD played very differently in PvP than it did in PvE. Push Back...... anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ08erBoJnU
Should watch this for your enjoyment. Should actually watch all of his 3.x videos and then lets discuss how this 4.x system is so much better. -
02-10-2018, 04:12 AMBahati
I'm really unamused by the neutering of my skillset as a WHM. People are still crying about it in 4.0 when I can't do much but toss a stone and a timed protect. Back in ARR I was aggressively chasing down foes, popping presence of mind and Holying until they were no more. It's incredibly boring to play any mode now when I have nothing better to do than squeeze off a weak heal now and then for teammates.
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02-10-2018, 09:11 PMReinhardt_AzureheimIt's almost like healers would be more fun if they had good offense options similar to Scholar and would be less about healing, shielding and more healing... right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahati
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02-11-2018, 04:21 AMAchaNoYumiI have an answer to your problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
You do Frontlines.
Time to grow up in the PvP world and aim for top 100. Then you'll know what I mean. -
02-11-2018, 05:54 PMThirdChild_ZKI
First off, you assume far too much. I've played both, including the Feast from the start. All but Season 4, which I protested for the chat restriction. Some of what I said in what you've quoted was in the Feast in context, though I didn't specify that. You also act as if playing well in Frontlines means nothing, or that player skill is somehow exclusive to the Feast, which you're also wrong about.
So! With that said, you can continue to play cheerleader for your little friend, but let me be quite blunt in saying this: your little talking point of Top 100, as if it's such a great measure of skill is laughable. I've seen some of the worst players make it into the Top 100 simply through attrition, and likewise some of the best I know aren't even represented. But you go on thinking that it proves you're good. The larger point being made here holds far more weight than your precious little bragging about top 100 in 9 button PvP that you and your little friend seem to bring up with every chance you get.
Maybe get over yourself, stop being a cheerleader, and review the main point of this thread, and you'll know what I mean. -
02-11-2018, 08:52 PMZojhaCase in point: Every_single_season had players reaching the top 100 in spite of losing more often than they win, i.e. a less than 50% winrate over hundreds of games.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
In any serious competition, those players would be below the point they started out at. You can pull that trick just after getting lucky with your low confidence matches, but not over hundreds of matches. -
02-13-2018, 05:59 AMDivinemightsThat is not the point, the point is some of these Feast players with below 40% win ratio thinks they are better because they played Feast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
They looks down on Frontline players and start insulting and trash talking.
These players usually ignored the fact that the only difference between Frontline and solo que Feast is one is in a controlled enverionment and one has random variables.