Healing in 4man parties (The experience 60-70)

And people wonder why lazy players gets called out. That BLM and NIn you could easily see play bad without a parser. There is soo many of them idk what the hell is going on.

Pulling one Mob at a time is for the W E A K.

How many runs did you do to measure this?

As a SCH, even in big pulls, you have plenty of time to DPS as you have a lot of counter measures. You can even pop Largesse to strenghten your shield, Excog and Fey Union after applying Eos' regens buffed with Rouse. Most of it can be done pre-pull, except for the regen which is dangerous. Then you weave offgcd healings as you use your DPS skills. You can go ham and spam Miasma II while having Lucid Dreaming up for an insane amount of DPS on top of your bane'd dots+shadowflare (Which slows the trash's autos/casts down too). Granted, some skills won't be available on pre-70 dungeons, but you'll still have tools to deal with it.

Since you're a tank, I'm sure you have an understanding of how much damage you can take either buffed or unbuffed, and go from there. The tank has to be extremely bad in order for you to lose control over that situation. For instance: Not avoiding AoEs or LoSing some moves. Being very undergeared or not using a single cd at all.

Its usually ideal for a tank to pull multiple mobs in 50/60/70 dungeons when both the tank and healer are geared and the tank knows how to use cooldowns moderately well. To suggest that the game's dungeons should be more gated than they are now would ruin dungeons further. Single pulling is objectively slower unless the tank and healer are just too undergeared to pull more. You should always quickly check their gear, and if you see them not using cooldowns call them out on it.

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Originally Posted by Raim

Its usually ideal for a tank to pull multiple mobs in 50/60/70 dungeons when both the tank and healer are geared and the tank knows how to use cooldowns moderately well. To suggest that the game's dungeons should be more gated than they are now would ruin dungeons further. Single pulling is objectively slower unless the tank and healer are just too undergeared to pull more. You should always quickly check their gear, and if you see them not using cooldowns call them out on it.

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From my experience calling them out isn't a very good idea because they'll probably just say "maybe if you'd healed more I wouldn't need to use them" or something to that effect.
The sad truth is that technically everything that goes wrong in a run can be solved with enough healing, which is why most players tend to blame healers for wipes even in cases where it was caused by DPS or tank mistakes.

For melting tanks I do largese(sp?) swiftcast medica II and apply regen. It gives me some room to at least do aero 3, presence of mind holy using thin air when the enhanced regen falls off for stunning. For first heal I assize(sp?). By that time I hope the pack has shrunk a bit and if not I have enough MP to spam heal a little and use eye for an eye and not drain my mp.

(I was so proud of myself for "adjusting" because few tanks don't after melting in the first pack)

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Originally Posted by HiromiVenia

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This is just my initial reaction to this post, but generally, once you hit the level 60 dungeons, the general rule of thumb is to expect large pulls with no CDs. I learned this when I started maining healer. On one hand, you get good with healing in the types of pulls are say are terrible, you'll be more than prepared for just about anything as long as the tank isn't too undergeared.

@Claire - I'm not going through your post point by point because frankly you're just backing up my stance at this point. The only thing universally present in these dungeons where healing is hard 1/4 of the time is a healer who believes this silly rhetoric that healing dungeons is difficult.

I feel like you guys need to step back and evaluate why you're having difficulty. I am by no means the best healer out there or even the best healer on these forums but I'm a conpetent dungeon healer who has played a wealth of SB leveling dungeons on across all 3 healer jobs and I can't agree that tanks are all terrible or that small pulls are more time-efficent.

I think I'm going to try to create some of these scenarios in the coming days with a static party and do Bardam's/Doma as both single and full(er) pulls and record to see which takes longer with the same group. I'd also like to see if a single-pull run of any SB leveling dungeons can be completed in the advirtised 13-15 minutes even under more optimal conditions (I'll dps on WHM and get a party I know has decent dps) to see where we wind up.

I have no issue with someone saying they're having trouble in virtually any content, especially healing. My issue is that you guys are passing the buck and blaming your issues on other people.

To all those baby/potential healers out there - it isn't really like this! It's actually quite fun more often than not! Add me on discord if you have questions, tag is in my signature <3

Whenever I'm in a party with sub par tanking or dps I see it as a challenge of my skills as a healer. When it's a good team sometimes it can get too easy for me and boring.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

@Claire - I'm not going through your post point by point because frankly you're just backing up my stance at this point. The only thing universally present in these dungeons where healing is hard 1/4 of the time is a healer who believes this silly rhetoric that healing dungeons is difficult.

I feel like you guys need to step back and evaluate why you're having difficulty. I am by no means the best healer out there or even the best healer on these forums but I'm a conpetent dungeon healer who has played a wealth of SB leveling dungeons on across all 3 healer jobs and I can't agree that tanks are all terrible or that small pulls are more time-efficent.

I think I'm going to try to create some of these scenarios in the coming days with a static party and do Bardam's/Doma as both single and full(er) pulls and record to see which takes longer with the same group. I'd also like to see if a single-pull run of any SB leveling dungeons can be completed in the advirtised 13-15 minutes even under more optimal conditions (I'll dps on WHM and get a party I know has decent dps) to see where we wind up.

I have no issue with someone saying they're having trouble in virtually any content, especially healing. My issue is that you guys are passing the buck and blaming your issues on other people.

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You can choose not to debate it all you want, sticking to your echo chamber. (I literally layed out the exact situation(s) in which a healer can come across, and you had no argument, other than "I'm clearly right.")
I bet you also didn't read the part where the OP mentioned they still do pull 2 groups, only if the 2nd group was within reason. (which is honestly most groups after some of the earlier pulls in the SB dungeons.)
And the OP recorded the recovery from a wipe as part of the time spent in "madness" pulls. (Remember your tank needs to be in i250/255 gear in kugane, not using CDs, pulling door to door, and you can't carry them, as that wouldnt be the normal/average)

You'll need to record the amount of HP lost as a percentage in content outside of SB leveling dungeons, as you claimed the healing requirements isn't higher in SB dungeons. (Which I will admit I dont actually know, but do go off of my limited personal experience, where I've never encountered tanks being globaled before, w/o mechanics being done wrong, like in savage.)
You'd also need to know the group composition, because many prior tests into which job(s) are quicker in 1 group pulls, and vs 2 groups+, as they always had differing results based on group composition.

But also, if I said it happens roughly 1 in 4 times, why mention the "I cant agree that all tanks are bad", as we arent saying its all tanks. Just a large enough amount, it becomes noticable.
The very fact it doesnt happen the majority of the time, is evidence that the healer isn't always to blame, such as you suggest. (Again, just means the healer wasn't able to carry them, which isnt to be expected as the "standard".)

But as for the advertised clear time, I'm not actually disagreeing with you solely on that. But simply saying "My experiences say you're wrong" is just as bold of a claim.
Record it, and back yourself up, and show DPS parses, so people can make sure the group wasnt holding back in either scenario, outside of having less targets to hit.

If you can't apply healer dps don't. your first job is keeping the tank alive and if they're making that hard for you, don't give them dps, just keep them alive till you can.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

If you can't apply healer dps don't. your first job is keeping the tank alive and if they're making that hard for you, don't give them dps, just keep them alive till you can.

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I'm sure they know that, but healing is an art. Knowing HOW to heal is what sometimes enables you to DPS. Since OP is just starting as a healer, I'd like to know more about his playstyle to see if there's something he can improve. I was able to DPS even with the sh**est tanks I could find. So, there must be something they are missing here.

I think the point of this, is that when people don't do their jobs correctly, it makes everyone else's harder. With the OP, they are obviously trying healing for the first time and listing their observations which are obviously NOT LAW. This whole post should be taken with a grain of salt since it is partially a rant post, which I kind of figured by the title.

I also respect the OP because they are actually learning to heal, instead of just complaining about healing without having done any, like I've seen so many tanks (and occasionally DPS) do.

Also, the OP cited that this is their 60-70 experience. So leveling. We all know the problem dungeons: Dzemael, Aurum Vale, Sohm Al, Vault and Bardams which are problems mostly due to the potential swarming--except Vault which adds shitty boss mechanics to that. In these dungeons, things can go south rather quickly, no matter the ilvl. These are skill dungeons, where you have to actually know your shit or you're probably going to die.

Ignoring numbers, I believe that the OP (and other tanks who have commented) is right about one thing at least. Part of the Tank's job is assessing the group. It's not just about pulling huge because to do otherwise makes you w e a k. That's role stereotype BS. As a Tank you are a leader. You assess the situation and pull what is best for your group to handle and manage the flow of the duty accordingly. To do anything less is to be a button masher with a God-Complex. Sure, you might die last but 'git gud' has never magically made anyone's battle experience any better. I don't know why people keep giving it out as advice (instead of ACTUALLY GIVING OUT ADVICE).

It's been my experience that, with leveling DF groups, small pulls go down faster because the healer can DPS. If the healer isn't dpsing then obviously larger pulls are more efficient. I do not ascribe to the expectation that healers must dps. However, if they don't there's no point in pulling smalls. OP, you obviously expect to add your dps to the numbers, so making sure you can do that is a good idea.

So, OP, you need to speak up. As other tanks have cited (and I'm sure you've done as well being tank), the first pull usually determines what you have to work with. If you believe things are going to go FUBAR, then you need to mention it--even at the risk of being viewed as incompetent. Most people really just want to get through the duty in a reasonable amount of time. Some want a challenge (because yes, some of this is boring AF) but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation of a DF group unless everyone is in agreement. So communicate. It doesn't always work but it never works if you don't try it.

I feel you. I do. I leveled a healer to take some of the heat off our FC leader (who was our main heals once upon a time) and to que faster. Now I have all of them. Your trade-off on faster ques is having to deal with less-than-ideal situations but the majority of the community will work with you--you just have to let them know. After all, no one ques to wipe (unless it's a Shinryu EX learning party). :P

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

You can choose not to debate it all you want, sticking to your echo chamber. (I literally layed out the exact situation(s) in which a healer can come across, and you had no argument, other than "I'm clearly right.")
I bet you also didn't read the part where the OP mentioned they still do pull 2 groups, only if the 2nd group was within reason. (which is honestly most groups after some of the earlier pulls in the SB dungeons.)
And the OP recorded the recovery from a wipe as part of the time spent in "madness" pulls. (Remember your tank needs to be in i250/255 gear in kugane, not using CDs, pulling door to door, and you can't carry them, as that wouldnt be the normal/average)

You'll need to record the amount of HP lost as a percentage in content outside of SB leveling dungeons, as you claimed the healing requirements isn't higher in SB dungeons. (Which I will admit I dont actually know, but do go off of my limited personal experience, where I've never encountered tanking being globaled before, w/o mechanics being done wrong, like in savage.)
You'd also need to know the group composition, because many prior tests into which job(s) are quicker in 1 group pulls, and vs 2 groups+, as they always had differing results based on group composition.

But also, if I said it happens roughly 1 in 4 times, why mention the "I cant agree that all tanks are bad", as we arent saying its all tanks. Just a large enough amount, it becomes noticable.
The very fact it doesnt happen the majority of the time, is evidence that the healer isn't always to blame, such as you suggest. (Again, just means the healer wasn't able to carry them, which isnt to be expected as the "standard".)

But as for the advertised clear time, I'm not actually disagreeing with you solely on that. But simply saying "My experiences say you're wrong" is just as bold of a claim.
Record it, and back yourself up, and show DPS parses, so people can make sure the group wasnt holding back in either scenario, outside of having less targets to hit.

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The burden of proof is on the accuser. If (likely when) I run a few of these dungeons to disprove things the OP has posted it is icing on the cake because despite all of the claims that bad tanks are bad the only person to link real evidence thus far is Sebazy.

I'm sorry you seem to have as rough a time as you do here but I'm at the point that I'm taking your claims at face value. If I know that you have all of these difficulties doing things I (and many others) do with relative ease is it not reasonable to think you might be your own problem?

Now I know it sucks to get introspective and wonder if you're doing something wrong, it's something that I've actually gotten a lot better at while playing this game. I still think until you can start linking parses of every roulette you do (or youtube/twitch/whatever) you are the one making the claim/complaint and with no supporting evidence your claim is baseless and moot.

Back up what you're saying with facts or your experience is of no more value than mine or anyone else's.

If one in four df runs went the way you claim the tales from the duty finder thread would be a hell of a lot longer at this point.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

The burden of proof is on the accuser.
-proceeds to make claims, and then asking others to do the prooving-

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Yes, burden of proof of ANY claim, is supposed to be handled by the person making the claim. But treating something as true or false isnt related to the burden of proof.
Nor does the person who makes the claim HAVE to be the only person to work on the claim. It's just more efficient to place the burden on the claimer, even more so if they initially had more information than the rest, since they were the 1st to bring it to anyones attention.

Everything is an UNKNOWN, until prove either true or false.
When something is neither true or false, its treated equally to false, but it is not inherently false.

This is something everyone likes to misunderstand.

You can NOT say something is false, that is a claim. (It is only an unknown, until proven otherwise)


I don't think the OP is either right or wrong, and "claims" made from people here, with anecdotal evidence is not going to sway them or myself.
How ever, I can be biased, and have an opinion, that the OPs time are incorrect. But this is just an opinion, as I know I don't actually know.
The claim I made, was that you don't actually know, but like me, have a strong belief it's not very likely.

You talked about the scientific method, and argue semantics about the exact wording someone used, all the while are planning to record "I'll make recordings to prove I'm right." Which in itself is considered unreliable evidence, due to bias.
You claim I'm having a rough time, despite every example I've given otherwise, while you keep demanding for more info, you refuse to give any in return. (Claims about the OPs difficulty I couldnt make any statement on, as I don't know enough about them.)
You're correct that until I can provide you a parse of some sort, you're inclined to think the problem isn't the example I had given. (Not only would I have to wait for exact situations to occur again, I honestly doubt people would be having as much trouble today, as most people are both more geared, and know the fights/dungeons better as an average. But I haven't run a leveling roulette in months so maybe I'm wrong. I also don't have parsers, nor can my PC record videos after my GPU died.)

But I still want to know what is the correct answer to a situation, where you need to dodge rather large cleaves from the colossus, while popping oGCDs in between GCD cures, and largesse regen/cure2, and tanks die during the cast time.
Regardless if the tank is performing well or not.
Is there an answer? because if not, then this argument is pointless.

Also you're random claim about the length of a thread is irrelevant, and needs evidence to back up such a claim.
(Also, if you hadn't noticed, I wasn't interested in convincing you of anything, I was instead challenging YOUR claims, and instead, you tried to turn it into challenging mine. You're free to do it, but it doesnt make your arguments look any more right or wrong.)

EDIT: While the posted times the OP gave are probably wrong, the general point of their argument could still stand with one example. (Not the actual listed number as a time)
Both groups usually pull 2 groups of mobs.
Ignore wipes slowing the run down.

One group the DPS are single targeting different mobs, and not using AoEs.
The other group is using AoEs.
(depending on DPS, sometimes single target attacks can do more dps, depending on the number of mobs, like with RDM, you throw in single target attacks, with AoE, on 3 mobs.)

Clearly one group is going to finish faster.
If the OPs example is a corrupt sample, where ppl single target in the second example, due to them being poor players, and the 1st example had more 2 group pulls than they realize, along with jobs better suited for the AoE dps, they can get something at least close to resembling their claim. (Though their claim might be too extreme, even to be considered close)

Now, lets make an even more exaggerated example.

The AoE group only pulls 1 group of mobs.
The 2nd group pulls 2+ groups of mobs.

The 2nd group ONLY uses single target, and lets say isnt as high in single target dps as some of the other DPS. (heck, looking at the one video posted, the BLM just spamed fire3 only, and the run took forever, even with poor AoE rotations)

Now the remaining question is, can a healer make up the lost DPS from not pulling a 2nd group, in the AoE group? Obviously not. But is it more than the group who pulls 6+ mobs, and only single targets? there's no DPS gained from pulling more mobs, but there IS dps lost from a healer not DPSing as much, due needing to spam heals more.

Of course we need actual parses from this point forward, but I'm of the opinion the OP got corrupt samples, and trying to go from memory, gave poor representative numbers of their prior tests. (Or just straight up exaggerated it.)
I doubt the OP recorded them, otherwise the OP would have posted them.

I believe they blame you because in all others mmorpg healers tend to "heal only" and not to do dps like in this game helping the run go faster.
I think its all about people thinking steoretypicaly that a healer doesnt have good enough AOE's to help in dps so they should only heal the tank, if the tank dies then its healer fault. Healing must be done and noone care about healers fun, same with the tanks, pull or go away to the granny house if you cant hold 2 spawns of mobs or take the aggro from the healer, thats all.
With cooldowns or not, its "not worth" using them on few trash mobs, simply because it will take awhile to recharge them and the tank expects from the healer to keep him alive with basic stuff on when tanking it, like for example shield stance. If he is being blamed for not maintaining the aggro, why should healer not be blamed for not keeping tank alive? Its your average mmorpg dungeons experience right there pal. :P
You are a tank, and everyone around you dies - yo suk
You are a dps and the run goes super slow? - end yourself
You are a healer and tank dies? - go play candy crush
It boils down to single expectations from your average mmorpg player named John. xD

When I heal I don’t often find bad tanks, actually on the contrary I more often find really good ones over bad ones. What seems to happen more often is that the dps don’t know how to aoe the mobs so fights take ages and what can happen is the tank runs out of cooldowns and then takes huge damage I can’t heal fast enough.

I guess in the lower level dungeons you can expect tanks to not use cooldowns properly or pull too much, but in my experience I find that a rare occurance in the higher dungeons :)

It's quite easy to have a hard time in SB dungeons when you're running with level boosted fresh faces. It's been wild.

Only thing I'm gonna say as someone who spent 3 weeks leveling 2 healer jobs and one tank back to back: if you got shite dps, doesn't matter if you mass pull or not, things die slow and that precipitates wipe. I've healed really good mass pulled bardam and doma runs, both dgns who have what i call "critical mass pull sections" and utterly destroy mob packs. Ofc there have been plenty others where the tank I healed was popping his cds well enough and I was just pure healing him to make sure he'd stay alive for that pull and the dps was just so subpar that the both of us ran out of resources and we wipe.

A proper mass pull run with people who know their job and play well will never be slower than one who's pulling one at a time. That's just my point of view. My other other point of view is that unfortunately, my hot pocket heart has seen more bad play during my time while I was lvling than good ones.


One more thing: Being unable to dps as healer is not a bad thing if you're concentrating on keeping your tank alive when he mass pulls. 61-69 SB dgn mobs hit hard and you should only be squeezing some dps when its safe.

So Im no hardcore tank but heres the deal:

When I pug a dungeon, I look at a few things. I check peoples HP (if its low, theyre likely lower geared), I check our comp (how much AoE DPS we have and what kind), and take into account the dungeon we're in.

If things SEEM to check out ( I may also do View Search info or whatever it is to see if theyre a fresh player or one with a few 70s), I then Do a huge start pull. If everything checks out (Im not popping every last DCD I have, no risks of dying, etc), then thats the speed Ill pull at. If the healer or DPS isnt enough, then Ill pull smaller.

But Frankly, if we got good DPS, and a geared Healer, I personally expect us to be capable of large speed pulls. It has always been quicker in my experience.

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Originally Posted by spagthetapdancer

....really? d-d-do that many other tanks not use cooldowns? are Darkhold-style wall to boss pulls of 3+ packs that common? is this a chaos data center thing?

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Yes, there are MANY tanks that never use CDs on trash pulls. Which in a dungeon its more beneficial to use them on trash then the bosses.

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Originally Posted by HiromiVenia

1. Tanks pulling the entire mobs until the dungeon don't let them pull anymore pulls, don't use any defensive cooldowns, they don't care if there is a big one who cleaves or hits really hard... and wipe. This is madness.

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Welcome to healing. ;) It's a running joke that we're the saltiest players on the Earth, because we need to deal with all the crap the other roles shovel at us on a bad day.

It's a hard problem to solve because some groups are much more capable than others, and for those ones, being forced to do one pack at a time will be coma inducing. DF groups vary wildly in skill composition, so sometimes you get people where some want to go fast and others aren't capable of it, making it a frustrating experience.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Yes, there are MANY tanks that never use CDs on trash pulls. Which in a dungeon its more beneficial to use them on trash then the bosses.

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what about the other stuff?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Welcome to healing. ;) It's a running joke that we're the saltiest players on the Earth, because we need to deal with all the crap the other roles shovel at us on a bad day.

It's a hard problem to solve because some groups are much more capable than others, and for those ones, being forced to do one pack at a time will be coma inducing. DF groups vary wildly in skill composition, so sometimes you get people where some want to go fast and others aren't capable of it, making it a frustrating experience.

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I do oftentimes joke that the healer doesn't fight the mobs. they fight the party. you're constantly herding suicidal cats when you play healer.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Yes, burden of proof of ANY claim, is supposed to be handled by the person making the claim.

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You're free to do it, but it doesnt make your arguments look any more right or wrong.)

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I doubt the OP recorded them, otherwise the OP would have posted them.

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If someone is accused of murder it is up to the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused committed that murder. Any evidence presented by the defense, while helpful, is ultimately a moot point if the prosecution can't form a compelling case. If the defendant pleads not guilty they aren't then accusing the prosecution of anything. It is not a positive claim to say someone else is wrong.

The OP (and you) have laid out the claims that DF tanks are generally awful, single pulling dungeons is considerably more time-efficent and you've done literally nothing to back any of that up.

When you have a platform to speak from (evidence of these claims) then it becomes an actual debate. Right now you have no case, just you and other people known for habitually complaining sitting here and complaining. That isn't a compelling case at all.

In this most recent post even you are admitting that the claims the OP is making are unreasonable. To find a scenario to fit into them you need to specify one group doing big pulls with no AoE and another doing small pulls with AoE.

Honestly do you think that the vast majority of the OP's leveling experience from 60 to 70 can be summed up by only those two things happening? Because I think we both know that is incredibly unlikely. The normal strategy with SB dungeons is to pull big and AoE down the trash. Most tanks pull big. Most healers and DPS AoE down the trash. This isn't a secret strategy we only tell people once they reach 70.

I'm sorry if my continued protests that you have some kind of issue have offended you in some way. I can certainly be a very cut and dry person and the internet doesn't help that. It doesn't come from a place of malice, I genuinely don't understand how someone with a strong grasp on how healing plays in this game could have such frequent issues with basic content.

As to your specific question on the colossus pull I always situate myself away from the rest of the party when that kind of add is in play so that the only attack I'll have to dodge is one aimed right at me. The first few times I did that dungeon the colossus was pulled alone. If someone does the full pull there I can only remember one wipe and that was as an AST. As a WHM I have always been okay there.

Essentially I think you're taking a hyperbolic hypothetical situation (one specific pull of one dungeon out of 5 leveling dungeons in SB, in lower gear with a poor tank) and trying to frame your argument around it. It's also a scenario (specifically the tank being taken down to nothing in one GCD) that is rare enough I don't remember the last time I saw it.

I also think the OP's original post is not something that can be substantiated. If you recall that was the bulk of my first post in this thread. If we agree that those numbers are not likely to come up when replicated in a more controlled enviroment what are you even arguing here? You were backing up the OP's claims for the past few pages. It's fine if you don't want to anymore, I also think those claims are false, I guess I just don't understand what your point is anymore.

I have never, ever had a run that was faster because we did small pulls. As a WHM main I want big pulls because that's where WHM shines best. If I'm doing my job right then there shouldn't really be an issue. Even if the tank is sub-par I can generally push through. Some things lead to wipes (tank getting me cleaved for example) but if that happens then I try to play it safer and keep a closer eye on where the tank and I are standing.

Big pulls, in my experience, generally go south due to bad DPS.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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I would say that a forum is more of a peer review system. Like in science. That being the case the burden of proof falls on the person presenting the facts. FF14 is just a bunch of code, hard facts. There is a correct answer. It's an elaborate math problem.

The legal system relies more on convincing a jury and thus is just a string of opinions sometimes backed by facts and most of the time muddied by emotions.