Ideas to Improve The Black Mage (for 4.2 and beyond!)

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

If you start with T3, it won't be buffed by enochian's 10% damage. You shouldn't have any chance at losing it anyway.

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Fair enough, I suppose. It wouldn't hurt trying that next time.

Refer to this, kinda (still needs some edits, as he says in the guide):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing


I really like reading suggestions of all kinds, even if I don't like the suggestions themselves. Even ideas that are not as strong/less convincing can spark new ideas which can lead to tweaks, or stronger/more convincing ones. Worst case scenario, a suggestion is ignored completely and not even read. Outside of this, even if a suggestion is read, considered, and then not implemented, it can lead to other ideas that may later become implemented. It's all a process; this is how brainstorming works!~

As such, I've been systematically posting the reworks that I've thought the hardest about as OPs so they can get more attention. Not sure if the developers are making it to page 104 of Sfia's thread....


What I do not like is people shooting down suggestions as knee-jerk reactions without considering a larger picture (hence why we are at each others' throats in the Raise thread) and offering either no critique or very weak critique. There was a thread a while back suggesting Meltdown for BLM, giving +1% damage increase to a target for every Fire IV that hit it (with a cap of 6%, for if there were multiple BLMs in the group, etc), resetting back to 0 when the target was hit with an ice spell. That thread got so much heat (pun definitely intended) that the guy ended up deleting it (or so I presume, as I can no longer find it in search). RIP.

Background Changes

• Buffs no longer prevent the acquisition of durational buffs they would nullify (e.g. Astral Fire or Darkside preventing Ewer or Refresh). Rather, they simply nullify the individual ticks from those effects. Additionally, the latest tick is banked and will be immediately received upon removal of the nullifying effect (thus UI and/or mana ticks now always instantly grant mana upon shifting out of AF).
  
  
• Animation Lock of certain rate-increasing or preparatory abilities decreased slightly, including Swiftcast, Sharpcast, Presence of Mind, Lightspeed, Emergency Tactics, and Thin Air, and of warding abilities on casters such as Manaward and Surecast.

BLM

• By default, Enochian, Fire IV, and Blizzard IV are combined into a single key (separable options still available). Fire IV and Blizzard IV may be queued sequentially, before the swap is made.
  
  
• By default, Ley Lines and Between the Lines are combined into a single key, swapping after Ley Line's animation has completed (roughly 1 second). Between the Lines cannot be queued until the swap has been made. This is to prevent accidental doubling.
  
  
• Astral Fire and Umbral Ice returned to a 12-second duration, but Enochian now has a hidden timer of 2 seconds from after the loss of AF/UI before it actually fades. This acts as an effective increase of one second's duration that essentially benefits only the use of quick-casting over the period at which Enochian would otherwise fade, reallowing its Heavensward style rotations.
  
  
• (See background changes.) UI/MP ticks now granted instantly upon shifting out of AF.
  
  
• Transpose recast time reduced to 10 seconds.
  
  
• Manaward recast time reduced to 90 seconds.
  
  
• Advantages/disadvantages of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice made consistent per stack. Astral Fire and Umbral Ice now decrease the cast times of the opposite element by 20% per stack, rather than 50% only at 3 stacks. Each stack of Astral Fire now decreases the mana costs of Ice spells, and each stack of Umbral Ice of Fire spells, by 20%. Their penalty on the opposite element is now standardized at 5% per stack, rather than 10/15/20%. (edit)
  
  
• The damage bonus to Fire spells of Astral Fire has been decreased to 20% per stack, to a maximum of 60% (previously 40/60/80). ALL elemental spell potencies have been increased by ~20% to compensate. (This results in roughly identical Fire damage, and significantly increased Ice damage.) This allows for greater symmetry (numeric symmetry, not effective symmetry), a less punishing ice phase, and slightly improves upon the value of Umbral Heart rotations.
  
  Actual potencies:

• Fire - 220 potency. [+4]
• Fire II - 110 potency. [+14]
• Fire III - 290 potency. [+2]
• Fire IV - 310 potency. [-2]
• Flare - 310 potency. [-2] Now diminishes at 15/30/45/60%... damage over targets, or a minimum of 198 relative potency, up from 140.
• Blizzard I - 220 potency. [+40] [+22%]
• Blizzard II - 80 potency. [+30] [+60%]
• Blizzard III - 290 potency. [+50] [+21%]
• Blizzard IV - 310 potency. [+50] [+19%]
• Freeze - 160 potency. [+60] [+60%] This still generates damage just 16 short of Fire II spam, or 40 short of the minimum damage of the here-revised Flare, or 20 potency more than the minimum damage of current Flare.

I hate to say it, Shurrikhan, but you basically made Black Mage a braindead job. There's no need for symmetry between Astral Fire and Umbral Ice, because the Umbral Ice phase is supposed to be a cooldown phase/be in this phase while you wait to actually burn things again phase.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

I hate to say it, Shurrikhan, but you basically made Black Mage a braindead job. There's no need for symmetry between Astral Fire and Umbral Ice, because the Umbral Ice phase is supposed to be a cooldown phase/be in this phase while you wait to actually burn things again phase.

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They're still 60% off in potency... Any single-target Ice spell remains barely over half the damage of its related Fire spell... They just happen to now show the same potency values, while Ice AoE has been made less of a cruel joke.

While such might make an "Ice Mage" less painful to his party, it would change nothing in optimal play, except that Flare now remains ahead of Fire II even at 8+ targets, and Freeze and Blizzard are now situationally viable choices within AoE rotations, rather than solely Blizzard IV and Thunder IV.

Apart from no longer having to pay attention to when your ultra nuke spell is actually less powerful than your AoE filler, that would be a complexity increase.

The changes are meant primarily for the leveling experience, while they should have little to no impact on 70 rotations (apart from early cross-Flare being faintly more viable during Umbral Hearts and a Blizzard II during movement less a waste of throughput compared to simply not casting anything for the 1.5 seconds). They are meant to make the Umbral Ice and Astral Fire mechanics more readable (always at equal intervals rather than the weird 50/50/75 or 0/0/50 or 40/60/80 steps) so that the full details can be displayed to the player in-game without seeming convoluted, and make the current waste of time spells at least situationally useful or less punishing in their situational uses for a larger span of levels.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Apart from no longer having to pay attention to when your ultra nuke spell is actually less powerful than your AoE filler, that would be a complexity increase.

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I'd kind of have to disagree here.

As the pack size increases, T4's value increases. You will never not use T4 except in like, 3 pack AoE, and this particular variant wouldn't want to use Freeze in 3 packs. It wants to use B4 so you can get into Fire and F4/F4/Flare/Flare.

As pack size increases, the increased value of flare means anything beyond the necessities that prevents you from getting to your next Flare gets dropped. And the necessities are T4 and B4. After that, you start up F3 because you'll definitely hit two ticks by then, go into AF and Flare Flare transpose. Removing the damage penalty of the Stacks also diminishes freeze further in this scenario.

Tranpose being at 10 seconds means you can tranpose, T4, B4, Flare, Flare, Transpose. Why use Cheap Freeze when you can use 260 Flare then uber amped Flare? (Umbral hearts remember)

If there is a complexity increase, it's not notable. I'd see this being a shift back since you basically expanded the Double Flare scenario from 3-6 to 3-8, which covers almost every dungeon pull.

Edit: Even the 3 pack size is probably reduced to just Transpose, B4, Flare Flare.

Edit edit: Also, 1.8 x 260 vs 1.6 x 310, is roughly a 5% increase in potency. (468 vs 496)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I'd kind of have to disagree here.

As the pack size increases, T4's value increases. You will never not use T4 except in like, 3 pack AoE, and this particular variant wouldn't want to use Freeze in 3 packs. It wants to use B4 so you can get into Fire and F4/F4/Flare/Flare.

As pack size increases, the increased value of flare means anything beyond the necessities that prevents you from getting to your next Flare gets dropped. And the necessities are T4 and B4. After that, you start up F3 because you'll definitely hit two ticks by then, go into AF and Flare Flare transpose. Removing the damage penalty of the Stacks also diminishes freeze further in this scenario.

Tranpose being at 10 seconds means you can tranpose, T4, B4, Flare, Flare, Transpose. Why use Cheap Freeze when you can use 260 Flare then uber amped Flare? (Umbral hearts remember)

If there is a complexity increase, it's not notable. I'd see this being a shift back since you basically expanded the Double Flare scenario from 3-6 to 3-8, which covers almost every dungeon pull.

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I wholly remember Umbral Hearts. But I'd rather design not be based solely on the level 70 experience. For only 5 levels does Freeze see any situational use as CC before nearly all dungeon mobs become immune to binds and its low damage makes even an early return from Umbral Ice preferable to casting it, especially if T2 has been recently refreshed. I'd like to see it have something of a place at least until Blizzard IV, if not until Umbral Heart's extension onto Flare.

But you're right about the Freeze viability when removing the 10/15/20% damage penalty at stacks I/II/III from cross-element casting making it both Freeze and even Fire III after acquiring Umbral Hearts less viable during AoE. I'll have to remedy that. I most just wanted for the Umbral Ice and Astral Fire effects to be simple enough that they could actually give the whole information in-game within the spell or trait tooltips (as UI and AF are no longer visible as status effects to be cursed over), without seeming convoluted, rather than players needing to visit a third-party site to see their exact effects.

The primary issue is that Black Mage wants as little time in UI as possible. In every situation we have now, from low level to high, this remains true. Even at early game, buffing the ice spells only prolongs the inevitable shift.

It would require a fairly significant retooling of the spells we have access to to make Ice Stance worth expanding its duration on, but even those would likely be relegated to "Make fire phase better". If we do end up in a scenario where Ice and Fire have a more equitable balance (50/50, 40/60), I wouldn't mind Ice being an active phase of MP restoration like it works in PvP, with the goal being to minimize the spells needed to hit max MP while also maximizing the damage you put out.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The primary issue is that Black Mage wants as little time in UI as possible. In every situation we have now, from low level to high, this remains true. Even at early game, buffing the ice spells only prolongs the inevitable shift.

It would require a fairly significant retooling of the spells we have access to to make Ice Stance worth expanding its duration on, but even those would likely be relegated to "Make fire phase better". If we do end up in a scenario where Ice and Fire have a more equitable balance (50/50, 40/60), I wouldn't mind Ice being an active phase of MP restoration like it works in PvP, with the goal being to minimize the spells needed to hit max MP while also maximizing the damage you put out.

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Why would it prolong anything? The same amount of globals spent in UI but with UI damage increased by some 20 to 25% means that portion of damage increased by 20 to 25%. That portion may increase slightly when more mobility is required due to more frequent phase swaps becoming more viable for their quick-casts (slightly quicker still with the above change), but it's relatively small. It just slightly reduces the penalty. It doesn't encourage players to use it any more than they have to, except in that a couple Ice AoE choices now have a few more cases in which they'd be viable.

Personally, I don't feel as if the PvP version of MP restoration per Ice spell is needed or even fitting for PvE. That said, I wouldn't mind a larger bank of action that takes more time to fill. I'd even prefer that if it left additional reasons for highly aware players to cut either phase short to time macrorotational breakpoint around mechanics, essentially giving additional indirect mobility. (This was the primary reason for the deemphasis of cross-element penalties and of Astral-Umbral potency gap: to allow for additional macrorotational breakpoints, and from them: increased mobility.)

Ideally, there's a lot more I would change. But as this was simply for 4.2, I'd be satisfied with indirect mitigation of the costs of mobile or jostled gameplay, a more sensible leveling experience, and more cohesive and coherent Umbral Ice/Astral Fire tooltips (and effects to match).

Said ideal changes would include a revamp of casting to a variable continuous MP drain, rather than cost on completion, that allows for pre-casting without needing a target during the cast itself, and player-specific continuous MP generation that scales somewhat with Spell Speed (while the refresh potency effects have a chance to crit and are affected by determination), while BLM in particular would have its Ice spell MP costs increased towards Fire levels and MP generation adjusted as to allow for macrorotationally viable Umbral phases of anywhere from 1 to 4 globals.

Agree with a lot, especillay the de-nerf of IV spells.
Not ok with the double Foul on single target though : come on, 1300 (or 1400 if it gets boosted) potency in one (MP free btw) spell ? That's ludicrous, you're talking LB1 level potency every 30 seconds, 700 really is good enough.
Foul as it is is already a whooping 22 pps, it's already BIG considering casters potencies. Plus casters are around 180-190 pps so adding 22 more to that (+12% boost) I mean come on, if you make it it's the only boost you'll get (with our gear, we make 32 dmg/potency averaging crits and all so foul is already like 700 dps...)

Regarding switching to UI and MP, you have to realize that they made foul cost no MP exactly for that reason

Oh no I'm not questionning the no MP thing of Foul, I'm totally on that ship. I just draw attention on the fact that a spell on normal cast time, with no MP cost and available every 30 seconds should NOT reach 1400 potency. I don't even think any spell in any situation/condition should be given such potency actually.

Remember it's caster potency, not class with AA potency, 1400 on caster is huge.

vs3 is not the mobility issue with blm.. or not much..., its vs4, UB... and sometimes Shynriu ex last phase and some new 24 man raid stuff..

blm still has huge mobility issues (and dps ones too now, even when not mobile)

@vs3, just have bad luck we end up having to LB 3 during the massiv add phase, where a massiv amount of dps can be done and miss out on that aoe part

Nah, BLM is fine with mobility in those too.

make Fire4 2.6 sec cast, add back 10 potency and make swiftcast (for blm only) 30 secs. should make triple cast for mobility while not making it Overpowered

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Originally Posted by BlackcatChen

Nah, BLM is fine with mobility in those too.

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idk fam, not all of us can be as boss as you (serious compliment is serious). Shinryu EX us kind of a movement nightmare, to be honest, and unending can get you screwed over really hard with bad RNG.

This is why I want more reliable procs-based movement; it only takes ~2.5 seconds to move just about anywhere you need, so you can plan ahead for it. Plus it will feel a bit more like 2.0 BLM, and give the opportunity for better off-GCD weaving. It's really a win-win-win.... if they actually do it.

I agree a lot with Llugen on mobility being a huge problem (also about the need of a raise adapted to the class but it's WWIII on that thread so saying it here)

Some fights are hellish mechanics wise, and BLM while way more equipped than 3.0, is not equipped enough. I mean the real identity is the casting fireballs thing, turret is not an identity. Playing sly fox with the cast bar can be fun, but...

When you consider the mean PLBGCDNT (Potency Lost By GCD Not Taken), BLM is more punished than any others.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

I agree a lot with Llugen on mobility being a huge proble

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which plays into my point that Turret (in this game) IS our identity, we have been a turret, unmovable object since BLM creation and its what is good about BLM, BLMs issue isnt mobility, BLMs issue is that (currently) we dont do enough dps to warrant that lack of mobility. BLM is not fun because i can sit there and pew pew fire 4s all day long, BLM is fun because i can learn mechanics, plan when i can move and when i can stay still, plan if its better to save my mobility tools for a mechanic or if its fine to use them for a dps gain, plan how greedy i can be and when i cant.

Some fights require me to move and move in a way i cant plan around, but thats just the nature of the game. I will never want this feeling to be taken away, and i feel like stormblood added the perfect amount of mobility with the inclusion of triple cast and between the lines, we do not need anything else.

I honestly feel like, those people who want more mobility on BLM are better off picking a different caster, because BLM is not about movement, it is about being a turret and learning a fight to maximize when you can continue to be a turret. its not punishing to be forced to move, its rewarding to be able to not move in a situation where alot of other BLMs think they HAVE to move. it seperates the creative and attentive from the ones that think "oh no i have to move cos this is happening and theres nothing i can possibly to do prevent or minimize my movement"

" its not punishing to be forced to move, its rewarding to be able to not move in a situation where alot of other BLMs think they HAVE to move"

Llugen doesn't seem to have trouble with that considering his logs, yet he feels unhappy about BLM turret master.
So while I do see your point very clearly, I also feel like it's not a complaint from some average BLM who have a hard time doing good DPS and want to be helped doing better.

karshan is spot on with what I've been trying to say in most of these threads, BLM deals with clipping the worst of any ranged job at least and probably any job in the game. That's not "part of the game experience" when it's only one class that has to deal with it, it's bad design.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

karshan is spot on with what I've been trying to say in most of these threads, BLM deals with clipping the worst of any ranged job at least and probably any job in the game. That's not "part of the game experience" when it's only one class that has to deal with it, it's bad design.

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Its fine to be unhappy, but there comes a point where you got to think maybe the job just isnt to your style of play if it really makes you so unhappy. its true BLM is the most punishing job in the game to have to move in. but i once again claim that working around that is the fun in the job and not a design flaw, obviously we are disagreeing, and thats ok. but its just my take on things

I mean, you're not wrong, I guess, but I feel like it's a little bold of you to tell me that my main of four years that has gone through quite a bit of change compared to some classes (like monk for example) "isn't my style".

In this vein, I will continue to advocate for it to be more the way that I enjoyed it the most. Certainly, BLM should be the most punishing job to move on, but it's ridiculously punishing right now, and more reliable procs is not going to "ruin" the class. Better opportunity to weave off-GCDs is not going to ruin the class.

Nothing can "ruin" the class, that's a SMN spell (badum-tiss). But seriously, though.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Snip.

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i more meant that in a way of MMOs change. things get better, things get worse. I mained Drg in arr, and halfway through HW, before i decided HW drg just isnt as fun to me as ARR drg, and stormblood is even more unejoyable for Drg. i obviously quit maining drg, as sad as it was and moved onto a job i used to hate in arr, which was monk, now being fun to me in HW.


So if BLM isnt fun now, the only thing you can realistically do is hope and voice for change, or play something else.

As a note, i hated BLM in arr, it was one of the worst jobs to me at the time, i didnt like the proccy nature of how fire 3 was.
But i love BLM in HW and SB, it went from a job i hated to a job i love.

and i have been agreeing with a few of your ideas, they do seem good.
some i disagree with of course, proccs proccing more often and being more useful is something i do agree with.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

idk fam, not all of us can be as boss as you (serious compliment is serious). Shinryu EX us kind of a movement nightmare, to be honest, and unending can get you screwed over really hard with bad RNG.

This is why I want more reliable procs-based movement; it only takes ~2.5 seconds to move just about anywhere you need, so you can plan ahead for it. Plus it will feel a bit more like 2.0 BLM, and give the opportunity for better off-GCD weaving. It's really a win-win-win.... if they actually do it.

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Honestly even shinryu is mostly a joke in the movement sections, the last phase has a movement heavy moment every 1 min which can be extended if he decides to use ice+ levinbolt, otherwise it's mostly a static phase and since you know that the double attack comes AFTER the tether + beam which is not that big of a deal you can map a rotation for that too.
Frankly as chen said the problem really boils down to the fact that we don't really get a proper reward for a good play like that

And imho the unsung champion for BLM this patch was surecast, boy if we had that during most of the past encounters we would have been so much better

Regarding the burst window, wouldn't leyline on a 60sec cd (potentially with more haste buff( do the trick? Perhaps reducing the duration to 20sec but making it also halve our spell cost.. That would be a nice burst window

I did come up with a similar idea once, but didn't seem it took much interest tbh

Yeah I think we talked about that in the BLM thread a while back, didn't really pick up much steam though. I'd also like to just see a raging strikes return as a BLM personal skill in a different form

And yes, surecast is DEFINITELY the hero.

So... has anyone been to the JP forum and figure out what’s their take on buffing/nerfing blm?

I've also wondered about this, I'm over there now trying to translate some of the threads. There are a few suggestions threads and a "guide" thread with 150 pages.

Also one thing that isn't mentionned in the last page : while true that it is enjoyable to learn when to move and where to go for utmost efficiency, it kinda happens AFTER progress.

Kinda sad to go in there as a RDM to learn the fight and get the kill (to not hinder your teammates) and only then as a BLM to better yourself.

I had to do that on SMN before patches because new mechanics + lots to track don't do good together, so I went as RDM to learn the fight, and it doesn't feel right, I didn't feel like I had a main anymore.
Leera you said you switched mains, that's brave but not everyone likes the very principle behind this. Some of us will always think : devs you let me down with the class I once loved.

I heard a rumor that in the Replay preview, the black mage was casting Fire IV at something like 1.7 second cast times, but cannot verify if this is true or not. Couldn't think of where else to ask.

It's not a rumor, yoshida was casting it at around 1.92 secs and fire was even shorter. Also some thinks there's a strange interaction between thundercloud and when he restarted casting which sems to indicate that procs may not be on the CGD.

So some have theorized that Fire might become a 2.00 secs cast and Fire IV a 2.5, but there's the possibility that the replay is speeding up the cast times as such we'll see

@karshan: I don't agree with the, it happens after progress, agrument. If it was so then tanks would stick to their defensive stance until the kill of the boss and a good tank actually tries to optimize their dps stance uptime while progressing a boss fight, the same happens with a BLM and any other jobs, BLM might have an harder time but everyone tries to synch their rotation to the boss' rotation.

What's irksome is if that really does happen the job is going to play much closer to SMN/RDM which is the opposite of what everyone I've been talking to wants. I'd much rather get the reliable procs and recast reductions (and potency increases).

And yes, I personally "braved" learning SMN after prog on RDM just because of the nature of the job right now. Not only was it "better" for me to do, it was better for the whole group (utility/support tools). This is why I firmly believe that BLM deserves tools for prog and that "low utility, high damage" is not feasible in this game.

It would mean that at that point you're gonna use all instant casts CD only for movements however, not to mention that the time needed to refresh should go down, overall our pps should increase, which is good.
But as said it might just be something related to the video because Malefic III had a shorter cast too

Edit: About beign too close to SMN/RDM: I don't think we'll get close to that in ever but probably getting close to RDM can be a risk, which frankly that's why I said that saying that RDM beign fine because they can chain ress was very shortsighted.

Assuming they reduce casting time by that much, that would make a nice buff and potency didnt seem to be reduced (at least his number seemt normal to me)

Can you elaborate about the thundercloud? I can't see when this weirdness happens

Please make Freeze (mostly) and Blizzard 2 (minorly) useful... and remove Sleep, why it was kept I will never know. Crowd Control is good but only if it works and stays working, and I don't me diminishing returns either.

Apparently in the vid he used TC and then 1.5 secs or so later he started casting again, which shouldn't be possible considering how GCD works.

It could just be that the recording is sped up a bit or messes cast timers up however

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

I know the fights that I'm in to the best of my ability, since my static is progressing through Deltascape. .

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sry to put you on blast, but if you were still progressing thru deltascape, there are probably optimization problems. v3s is super BLM friendly. aetherial manipulation is up for most of your movement needs, or you could use triplecast to cast while moving without a care in the world. then you have swiftcast. or you could force a proc and use it when you need it. if you're great, you can fit it into your rotation so that you still maintain optimal dmg. while blm COULD use a little boost because of smn outperforming it while still having combat res, it's still a solid dps that will destroy most other classes epeens.

also, didn't read to the end, but triplecast is a movement skill.

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Originally Posted by Baka_Neko1

also, didn't read to the end, but triplecast is a movement skill.

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Its a movement skill but in the very same vein its also a haste skill. 3 fire 4s will be that much faster and it increases ur DPS..save it for progression to move, otherwise it should be used on CD for more dps which means it wont always be up for RNG aoes that come ur way