Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

Even when embolden is factured RDM is not close to BLM in dps, while SMN is above BLM before rdps is factured (175 rdps and the gap is about 200-400)

SMN devotion might not be on par with embolden in raw power ye, but it also offer some mitigation components that really should not be dissed when you have mechanics like say morn afah or gigflare where everything counts (not to mention the 5% extra healing potency means a slighly larger shield mitigation)
And that's before considering the 1 min /24 secs radiant shield and if we really want to maximise dmg SMN also can use contagion to offer some extra magical dmg if you really want it.

As for movement, as said if you need to move for more than 2 GCD SMN loses about 30 potency/gcd UNLESS they had a R4 in store in which case they gain about 70
Also can't really consider the planning department a problem for SMN since everyone's rotation is affected by mechanics to an extent even RDM

RDM after dualcast has not much else since everything else Besides OGCD is casted,

The only really thing that RDM has over SMN is beign able to quick raise more often which sadly is good only if the content allows to
oh and maybe helping healing shinryu's dragons head if you really want to count that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The only really thing that RDM has over SMN is beign able to quick raise more often which sadly is good only if the content allows to
oh and maybe helping healing shinryu's dragons head if you really want to count that

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Not setting your rotation back 1~2 minutes and missing your biggest burst if you die is a good thing RDM has ovr SMN right?

BLM might have many problems, but a lack of Res is not one of them.

Blm are not saying smn has superior utility (hell we blm have no utility to contribute) we are saying that even just utility wise smn brings more dmg. That is a big issue when a job that brings lots of support also out damages a job that is build specifically to just bring damage but yet is behind....
And really Red utility wise with rez is only good because of dualcast, take that away and the fact that embolden is not OP like some seem to think.
Smn needs no nerfs though, blm needs a major buff/changes and Red needs minor changes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashbury

Not setting your rotation back 1~2 minutes and missing your biggest burst if you die is a good thing RDM has ovr SMN right?

BLM might have many problems, but a lack of Res is not one of them.

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well ye that is idd a bonus RDM has over SMN, which to be fair is important considering what happens in the final phase of ultimate

and Ye I agree lacking a Ress is not really the problem with BLM

Personally I think that they should buff both BLM and RDM instead of nerfing SMN since nerfing it would simply mean that there would be no real competitot to ranged meta

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

multiple 'red mage is fine' posts

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*smacks head against wall repeatedly* They. Don't. Balance. Off. Of. Difficulty. Of. Playstyle. They. said. this. in. a. live. letter.

Embolden is barely 150-175 rDPS. It's not that big. God at this point screw Verraise, I'm so tired of having to argue against it with people who have no perspective.

As far as the whole 'punishing when dying' arguments. Really really simple solution. Don't die. I know right? It's almost too perfect.

It's getting pretty meme worthy at this point.

"Black Mage can use a raise."

"Black mage can't have a raise cuz lore and infinite MP."

"Other casters shouldn't have raise"

"Other casters have raise cuz otherwise they don't get raid spots."

BLM shouldn't have a raise spell because it never has one in a traditional FF game anyway. Neither should SMN which is merely Summon and Black magic. RDM should have it's raise on a long CD because RDM spells are generally weaker then spells cast by WHM and BLM in traditional games.

Only Healers should have raises.

Annoying when they have their skillsets mucking up Final Fantasy standards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

BLM shouldn't have a raise spell because it never has one in a traditional FF game anyway. Neither should SMN which is merely Summon and Black magic. RDM should have it's raise on a long CD because RDM spells are generally weaker then spells cast by WHM and BLM in traditional games.

Only Healers should have raises.

Annoying when they have their skillsets mucking up Final Fantasy standards.

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Actually in FF lore Summoners were almost always associated with White Mage rather than Black (aside from Rydia). It actually makes sense in a way for SMNs to have Raise because of their ability to manipulate aether in to a coporeal form (in this case, summons), it could quite easily be adapted to use aether in recovering another player to a weakened state. In FF14 the SMN is also too closely linked to the SCH that having shared actions is to be expected from the in-game lore prospective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Actually in FF lore Summoners were almost always associated with White Mage rather than Black (aside from Rydia). It actually makes sense in a way for SMNs to have Raise because of their ability to manipulate aether in to a coporeal form (in this case, summons), it could quite easily be adapted to use aether in recovering another player to a weakened state. In FF14 the SMN is also too closely linked to the SCH that having shared actions is to be expected from the in-game lore prospective.

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That's only based on accounts of Summoners being paired up with White Magic. So you basically have White Mages that dabble in the Summoning school of magic. Rydia was paired up with Black Magic instead.

Besides FF14 takes inspiration from the job system where SMN was his own class, Heroes can have multiple jobs avaible to them so characters like Yuna(which btw was a stronger Black mage than Lulu if you chose to), Rydia etc. should be taken with a grain of salt

Also Phoenix (the summon) is a thing. Like, it was a mass rez.

That said, the reason SMN has a raise is because Arcanist (a FFXIV-class designed specifically for the game) does.

SMN having Ressurection is fine. RDM's Verraise should be unaffected by Dualcast or at least has a drawback of some form (like double MP cost).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

SMN having Ressurection is fine. RDM's Verraise should be unaffected by Dualcast or at least has a drawback of some form (like double MP cost).

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50% of our MP for a Raise, totally fair. So the rest of our spells get half the MP cost and 25% more damage right?

if SE trys to fast fix blm, by giving blm rez (insteas of other
options/fixes), think I'd cry...

atm smn doesnt even need rez (but wouldn' t take it away from smn away either)

atm:
smn>rdm>blm

1) smn: high dps + good utility + high mobility + high punishment (deaths, pets, aetherflows)

2) rdm: constant dps + high utility + good mobility + low punishment
(overall a close behind smn, but still very loved, that rez is still insane)

3) blm: good dps + no utility (unless cross class skill: manashift <.<) + bad mobility (even if it was worse in the past) + high punishment (lose a single cast is bad for blm, biggest lose of all classes;.. dying before foul is up, is bad too, even if smn is be punished harder at deaths)

smn has "gameplay" and pet issues, and its not as smooth as rdm, ... but smn is overall the best caster atm for pfs, speed kils and possibly prog kills > just needs gameplay slight fixes

rdm is like samurai (= its design has almost no flaws, its close to "perfect" in its own way + low punishment.. and easy to get into), and the best rez of all classes + loved embolden, .. just with lower dps than smn and blm (but in new fights or heavy movment fights, overall not low dps either) and very good for prog > rdm is fine as it is, super rez should stay unchanged


.. blm is the real issue caster atm (wierd B4, losing enochian when casting fire 1 under ice, losing HP on convert, no utility but does damage like utility dps, punishment is high but less rewarding dps, etc...), but giving it rez would be imo bad, ... even if I can understand how "new blm" might be kind of jealous of rez, seeing other casters (rdm & smn) saving others like a hero..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

if SE trys to fast fix blm, by giving blm rez (insteas of other
options/fixes), think I'd cry...

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Agreed.

Quote:

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atm smn doesnt even need rez (but wouldn' t take it away from smn away either)

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I have no real opinion here.

Quote:

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atm:
smn>rdm>blm

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https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42
SMN>BLM>RDM (RDM < everything)
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=43
SMN>BLM>RDM (BRD<RDM<Everything)
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=44
SMN> Everything
Oh, sorry. SMN>BLM>RDM (RDM<Everything)
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=45
SMN>Everything. Notice it's not even greater by small margins here.
SMN>BLM>RDM (BRD<RDM<Everything)
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=46
SMN>BLM>RDM (BRD<RDM<Everything)

I used the 75th percentile because it's the best median between the average and the uber. Feel free to peruse the many different percentiles though. To be sure here's the entire tier at 75th:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#
At 99th:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=99
At 50th:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=50
25th:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=25
And at 10th:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=10

SMN is almost constantly at the very top, above samurai and *well* above black mage. Meanwhile RDM is wrestling BRD in every fight for last place, when BRD offers more damage utility than RDM does in every circumstance.

Quote:

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1) smn: high dps + good utility + high mobility + high punishment (deaths, pets, aetherflows)

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Everyone is punished by death. Yes, even RDM. They reduced the pain of death for pets at least too.
"Dying with aetherflow on cooldown sucks" Yes, so does dying with manafy on cooldown. And/or embolden. After getting to 100/100 and getting ready to lay down a double verfinisher. Dying may be a horrible catastrophic event for SMN but it doesn't do for them to act like everyone else can just get back up and brush the dirt off their shoulders and get back to it.

Quote:

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2) rdm: constant dps + high utility + good mobility + low punishment
(overall a close behind smn, but still very loved, that rez is still insane)

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Rez is useless in content that matters: you die in Ultimate, you wipe from everything I've seen. Even for prog as has been pointed out, SMN brings too much more pain than RDM. Oh, and Radiant Shield from everything I've seen far surpasses Embolden too. I don't get where you see it's so loved.

As far as constant...I dunno. My DPS always plummets when I die so maybe I just suck at the game. I'd say "weaksauce" is a better descriptor for its dps though.

Quote:

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3) blm: good dps + no utility (unless cross class skill: manashift <.<) + bad mobility (even if it was worse in the past) + high punishment (lose a single cast is bad for blm, biggest lose of all classes;.. dying before foul is up, is bad too, even if smn is be punished harder at deaths)

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Mediocre dps + no utility.

"Red Mage has no issues" -Black Mages, probably (actually). Embolden isn't loved, it's barely a party favor, it's more like that guy who just brings dip to a potluck, it's far from loved. Yes, the best Rez that costs you GCD's and 25% of your mana to cover for your embarrassingly dead teammates. RDM is not fine as is. We're the bottom rung except for 1 fight.

on fflogs, yes blm>rdm when looking at dps alone...

rdm rez, embolden, overall easy to handle, still has good dps in new fights (1st clears) and movment heavy fights, .. just not "top dps"

still say atm overall (not just pure dps), smn>rdm>blm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

on fflogs, yes blm>rdm when looking at dps alone...

rdm rez, embolden, overall easy to handle, still has good dps in new fights (1st clears) and movment heavy fights, .. just not "top dps"

still say atm overall (not just pure dps), smn>rdm>blm

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I have to agree to disagree here.

RDM's rez useless in farms, useless in fights where any player's death = wipe, and tying a job's entire balance to that one skill has led to RDM now being functionally useless. The Dev team has already stated they do not balance jobs around ease of use as well. Finally: for first clears? It's fine, I suppose. After that though, Summoner destroys it.

Embolden's rDPS still doesn't put RDM anywhere NEAR BLM. And those are the only two utilities that RDM brings: does that justify it being as weak as the utility god BRD?

every class gets "punished" when dying (having to rebuild bars etc.) ... but as it is now, smn gets punished hard at deaths and blm gets punished hard for any mistakes, ... rdm is still overall the most forgiving caster (unless you somehow build up dark mana fullly and no white mana;.. but a blm dying when enochian is on cd is more likely)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Embolden's rDPS still doesn't put RDM anywhere NEAR BLM. And those are the only two utilities that RDM brings: does that justify it being as weak as the utility god BRD?

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95% percentile and up puts RDM at around 300-400 below Black Mage outside Halicarnassus, because aoe shenanigans.

Add the 150 or so Embolden gives them puts them pretty close. I'd take a 100-200 dps hit to have unparalleled wipe recovery, just saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

every class gets "punished" when dying (having to rebuild bars etc.) ... but as it is now, smn gets punished hard at deaths and blm gets punished hard for any mistakes, ... rdm is still overall the most forgiving caster (unless you somehow build up dark mana fullly and no white mana;.. but a blm dying when enochian is on cd is more likely)

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Dying at 100/100
Dying at 80/80
Dying with manafy on CD
Dying with embolden on CD
Popping embolden by accident
Popping manafy by accident
Dying immediately after embolden
Dying immediately after manafy
Dying immediately after enchanted riposte/zwerchhau/redoublement
Dying before verfinisher can be cast
Dying after popping lucid as aggro control

I never said SMN isn't punished more. It loses its pet, and its charges toward bahamut. But "rebuilding the bars etc" is RDM's punishment for death: it's their losing DWA, it's their losing Foul. Death at inopportune times will hurt RDM a lot, and before it's said "but they'll just get it back", double verfinisher is a once-every-two-minutes-burst due to relying on embolden and manafy, both on two minute cooldowns themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

95% percentile and up puts RDM at around 300-400 below Black Mage outside Halicarnassus, because aoe shenanigans.

Add the 150 or so Embolden gives them puts them pretty close. I'd take a 100-200 dps hit to have unparalleled wipe recovery, just saying.

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At 95th and up, nobody should really be dying. Then verraise is useless. Then you're just taking a 100-200 dps hit for the lulz.

But let's assume people *are* dying. RDM is now no longer in the 95th percentile because of the lost GCDs while raising people: if it's only one person that needed raising, that's up to healer A. If two, healer B. If three, then RDM could do it...or SMN could with huge amounts of extra damage. If four...then RDM is valuable finally. Half the team needs to die in order for RDM's utility to be truly useful. And by that point, nobody is in the 95th percentile.

Yeah that doesn't mean anything Yoshi already said about how 'forgiving' or the difficulty of playing the class has no effect on balancing, stop using it as an argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

But let's assume people *are* dying. RDM is now no longer in the 95th percentile because of the lost GCDs while raising people: if it's only one person that needed raising, that's up to healer A. If two, healer B. If three, then RDM could do it...or SMN could with huge amounts of extra damage. If four...then RDM is valuable finally. Half the team needs to die in order for RDM's utility to be truly useful. And by that point, nobody is in the 95th percentile.

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Alright. So take it away if it's not useful and give Red Mage a 100-200 damage bump.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

50% of our MP for a Raise, totally fair. So the rest of our spells get half the MP cost and 25% more damage right?

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It's just an example. I'm not really sure what the MP cost of Verraise actually is.
But if Dualcasted Verraise is what keeps RDM from having higher damage then there should be penalties made.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

It's just an example. I'm not really sure what the MP cost of Verraise actually is.
But if Dualcasted Verraise is what keeps RDM from having higher damage then there should be penalties made.

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If we get the higher damage sure. Then I can actually DPS and not play babysitter.

There’s something wonderfully liberating about BLM not having to be concerned with dead people, and I’d rather that not change.

BLM does need help, but it should be a significant personal DPS boost or some unique functionality. I’m tired of every caster being a rez dispenser.

There is a whole other thread about BLM's real issues sorted by Sfia, I suggest you all to give it a look and post what you think there to avoid going on "which job is better" that eventually rises in any thread asking for a something like this one, and if you agree with that thread's toughts be sure to leave a like on the OP, thats the best thing you can do to at least try to make SE pay attention to what you think it should be adressed. I also do agree RDM has its issue, but most of them were only highlighted by the fact SMN is too strong now.

The ability to chain raise will be forever valuable as long Savage tiers keep being forgiving as they have been for the past 2 cycles. Does this make RDM good? Nah, just makes it valuable in a niche of progressing in fights that let you raise through. Which isn't a bad spot. WHM has a similar niche of being a heaer jobl full of powerful on demand heals, perfect to push throught a clear when a fight ins't mastered quite yet. SMN is simply good with a good combination of damage and party buffs and having a raise on top of that makes them a strong pick anytime. BLM just has nothing to offer, and this is the real issue. BLM popularity sinked so hard that its currently the less played job for weekly Savage clears by outsider's statistics.

Delete BLM and RDM. Simply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

But let's assume people *are* dying. RDM is now no longer in the 95th percentile because of the lost GCDs while raising people

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This the GCD that RDM loses is about 300 potency + Mana and it's much more than what SMN loses

I know BLM isn't in a good spot but these suggestion become ridiculous...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Alright. So take it away if it's not useful and give Red Mage a 100-200 damage bump.

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Believe it or not, that's actually my position:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I disagree to a point: verraise should be off the dualcast so RDM can...ya know...be a DPS, instead of a rez dispenser.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Believe it or not, that's actually my position:

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Oh I meant take it away completely. If you get to keep swiftcast raise, then you get to have 500 more dps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Oh I meant take it away completely. If you get to keep swiftcast raise, then you get to have 500 more dps.

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I think you typoed perhaps, because you just suggested more dps for RDM for keeping swiftcast raise than you were when you were apparently supporting verraise's total removal.

In either case, I am in support of keeping swiftrez. "But then BLM needs a raise to--" If BLM gets rez, then we keep our dualraise and get damage buffs because they'll have access to bloody triple/quad rez for basically free.

Black Mage doesn't need a raise to be viable. It needs to be able to contribute more to the party in the form of general utility. The reason Summoner is favored is because their utility skills aren't dependent on composition like Red Mage and they're generally more mobile than Black Mage allowing the group to not figure out mechanics around them.

We've seen that high damage alone isn't enough to make a job more viable, so perhaps they could learn from black mages in earlier games (Vivi is one I'm thinking of here in particular) and let black mages elementally charge the attacks of other party members for a benefit.

An example could be that a lightning infused weapon will increase the potency of DOTs by that player as well as have a chance to refresh the duration of the BLM lightning when an attack lands, or fire to increase weapon skill potencies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I think you typoed perhaps, because you just suggested more dps for RDM for keeping swiftcast raise than you were when you were apparently supporting verraise's total removal.

In either case, I am in support of keeping swiftrez. "But then BLM needs a raise to--" If BLM gets rez, then we keep our dualraise and get damage buffs because they'll have access to bloody triple/quad rez for basically free.

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(Because Summoners)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

snip

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Is this your very first Final Fantasy title? I'm generally curious, as that's the most illogical thing I can think of to the job itself. There's never been a Black Mage in the history of Final Fantasy since FF1, that's had raise. The job is NOT a necromancer. Otherwise, it would say NCR instead of BLM on it. It's a dpsing glass canon that focuses on DPS. Please tell me this is a troll post and a joke? Cause I'm laughing out of embarrassment if you're a BLM and requesting raise for it. I play both BLM and RDM endgame, and this has not been an issue. All it takes is a competent group. Blame the group, not the job. Hate the group, not the class.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

snip

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Nah just check their post history. Total troll.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Nah just check their post history. Total troll.

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Oh thank Twintania, I thought that was a actual thing they wanted lol. I was about to flip my seal as a blm and rdm main xD

Just give BLM a party wide offensive buff skill and done.

Could even be standing in the Ley Lines increases magic damage dealt by 8%(not stackable by other BLM) or something stupid like that. Or just flat damage increase. Only the caster gets the reduced cast times though.

See. Not hard.