Yoshi P./Dev team/Job balance team Please Say Something About DRK

It's not that I'm not interested about the main story, but... It's questions we already got some kind of answers. =/

And Twitch chat is twitch chat, whatever language it is speaking. =B Some things never change, it's conforting.

Question about elements of old final fantasy, 1 question left .... (Yoshida hinting about quiting ff14's development)

And last question about Ivalice, :salted earth, salted earth everywhere:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...22/453/3a0.gif

We can return to cry and shout guys and girls.

Aaaah and I have my answer, people don't think jobs are undertuned ... Yep, we are doomed

"kill.... matar... korosu.... tuer.... töten.... uccidere..." oh?! em sorry just speaking alone.

Our next hope is the next live letter, whenever it comes, but if it continues, we're good to become the definitive PLD of SB. And at least, in HW, PLD wasn't the worst tank in every fights AND people playing other jobs were at least aknowledging it got problems. By joking about it, yes, but it was still acknoledged.

I mean, in my FC, me pesting about DRK became a common joke for my friends.

What baffled me was people saying that monk was good ..... how ?! I mean, with this mentality, I understand why we are being ignored right now

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Originally Posted by Erin_Singh

Aaaah and I have my answer, people don't think jobs are undertuned ... Yep, we are doomed

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This was confirmed?

No, I said something about it in chat ... and promptly go bashed by people saying "urgh jobs are fiiiiiine" (dramatic recreation, but that's the tl:dr)

Nope, that's what people are saying in Twitch chat, and I heard the speaker says about a PLD and DRK composition in a Niddhog normal Try : "A very agressive Tank composition, DRK is able to do many DPS" :facepalm: They said the same about a PLD/WAR composition tho.

I mean, that's what we get when we go to a casual convention stream (they were getting hyped about omega normal mode a few days ago, NORMAL MODE)

Can't believe nothing was said about any class changes, as anticipated it was mostly PR questions about housing and plushies more cash shop items/stuff to pay for, it's kinda sad when the devs don't acknowledge anything about their game.

As for everyone who's been advocating on this forums such as Syzzle and Chrono and among others who are voicing their opinions, the tank community thanks you and your support, i'll continue to post my part for Drk as well as I knew watching the stream I had low expectations of them talking about Drk.

I'm genuinely at a loss for words. Part of me wants to unsub on this (alt account) as well. Another part of me wants to just bury this forum in caps lock rage. I just dunno how to demand changes any harder or louder or more prolifically than we already have. And there have been some REALLY, REALLY good, solid, and easily implemented changes suggested in the last few weeks. Ideas that SE would do well to put their name on. But no.

At this point, I wish they would just completely revert all the changes in SB to DRK and just give us back 3.x DRK in its entirety. That job would function far better than whatever we have now. Its sad that I can say that and its not even an exaggeration.

I am so frustrated. I'm spending my time that I would be using playing FFXIV playing FFXII instead and farming loot in Cerobi Steppe because RNG manipulation is less infuriating than this garbage.

I honestly don't know what you were expecting. I called it. PR gonna PR. Questions prepicked and everything.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I'm genuinely at a loss for words.

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This is honestly how I feel i'm just at a loss for words at SEs decision making, HW Drk functions and is just solidly better than what SB Drk is and it is sad honestly. I rerolled Drk from Pld in 3.0 right when the expansion launched and leveled from 30-54 in one day I LOVED the class and it was solid at 60 when I first stepped into Gordias Savage.

Plushies and housing, yeah sure I get they have to appeal to some crowds but there was 0 ZILCH NADA about any classes or feedback of any kind in relation to UCOB and Drk or just raiding in general how the number of Drks are either just quitting or playing War/Pld because being a Drk is just a hindrance to your raid group, it's pitiful really.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I honestly don't know what you were expecting. I called it. PR gonna PR. Questions prepicked and everything.

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Yep that you did and this is exactly what I expected, my expectations were severely low for this live letter we won't be seeing changes till the next raid tier at the earliest.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I'm genuinely at a loss for words. Part of me wants to unsub on this (alt account) as well. Another part of me wants to just bury this forum in caps lock rage. I just dunno how to demand changes any harder or louder or more prolifically than we already have. And there have been some REALLY, REALLY good, solid, and easily implemented changes suggested in the last few weeks. Ideas that SE would do well to put their name on. But no.

At this point, I wish they would just completely revert all the changes in SB to DRK and just give us back 3.x DRK in its entirety. That job would function far better than whatever we have now. Its sad that I can say that and its not even an exaggeration.

I am so frustrated. I'm spending my time that I would be using playing FFXIV playing FFXII instead and farming loot in Cerobi Steppe because RNG manipulation is less infuriating than this garbage.

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I by no means organize peaceful protests for a living, the important thing is to be on message, and remember individually we are small, together we are strong. But if raising awareness on the forums doesn't work there are other options:

- 1-Star Review Campaign: Go to every review website for the game and leave a review about Dark Knight and Class balance issues and about less than desireable customer service and lack of developer response to issues/favortism towards meta classes.

- Social Media Campaign: Post about the lack of response on all your social media @SE make youtube videos @SE

-Job Action Campaign: You don't have to play tank. I don't have to play tank. No one has to play tank. Without us the game doesn't move. Get 1/3 of the tank population to stop tanking until balance is restored and people will take notice.

Just a few ideas. None of these are good for the game. It would be far healthier for the developers to just start a conversation than to require your community to protest your silence.

Honestly 3.x DRK doesnt really function that much better or worse than 4.x
the problem is the other tanks were changed so much, that DRK can't keep its continued clunkiness.

3.x DRKs didnt have enough CDs for constant physical TBs, but had enough passive mitigation for auto attacks, and trash pulls.
4.x DRKs dont have enough mitigation for auto attacks/trash pulls, but do have TBN for every physical TB.

Plunge remains just as terrible, nothing new there.
Shadow Wall is still weaker.
etc.

DRK is pretty much just as clunky and a mess as it was in 3.x.
But the other tanks adjustments left them better rounded off than DRK. (Not to say they dont have some residual clunky features.)

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Job Action Campaign: You don't have to play tank. I don't have to play tank. No one has to play tank. Without us the game doesn't move. Get 1/3 of the tank population to stop tanking until balance is restored and people will take notice.
[/B]

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It would be hilarious if all DRKs just switched to DPS jobs, then when the inevitable complaints about DPS queue times flood the forums our response could be "well you want better queue times for DPS, then fix DRK so we can play tanks again". That would probably stir things up a bit and cause a general uproar.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Another part of me wants to just bury this forum in caps lock rage. I just dunno how to demand changes any harder or louder or more prolifically than we already

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Go full on hyperbole fueled WAR complaints on this mf'er. You have my support.

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Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

They cherry pick the same questions over and over. They then respond with the typical "Look forward to it!" You may get one different question but don't get your hopes up they will most likely just give potency buffs and label it as fixed as you can plainly see with other jobs.

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Please understand, thank you

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Go full on hyperbole fueled WAR complaints on this mf'er. You have my support.

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Are you on the same tank forum as me? Because this has been a DRK echo chamber since well before 4.1. WAR posts stopped a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Are you on the same tank forum as me? Because this has been a DRK echo chamber since well before 4.1. WAR posts stopped a long time ago.

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He meant "You have my support to make complaint threads like a WAR would" I think.

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Originally Posted by SummerScorcher

He meant "You have my support to make complaint threads like a WAR would" I think.

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Precisely.

I was saying that I would support them, or anybody at this point, that wanted to make complaint threads similar to the ones there were for WAR.

Yes, you don't see WAR threads anymore because SE immediately responded and catered to, or arguably over-catered to, the complaints and dealt with them incredibly swiftly.

Meanwhile DRK .... *not even crickets, just nothing at all*

How would WAR mains feel if their job did the least dps, had the least mitigation, had the least party utility and was left in a clunky disjointed state?

You would throw a fit, I know because I saw just that at the beginning of 4.0 and that was for only a couple of the things I listed.

Now imagine if not only were the issues with the job not fixed but the fact that there was even a problem wasn't being acknowledged. Then on top of that, the community often tells you "things are fine, the tanks are balanced better than ever" or "just deal with it and if you can't just switch jobs".

That would suck right? Well that's what is happening to DRK mains right now.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Precisely.

I was saying that I would support them, or anybody at this point, that wanted to make complaint threads similar to the ones there were for WAR.

Yes, you don't see WAR threads anymore because SE immediately responded and catered to, or arguably over-catered to, the complaints and dealt with them incredibly swiftly.

Meanwhile DRK .... *not even crickets, just nothing at all*

How would WAR mains feel if their job did the least dps, had the least mitigation, had the least party utility and was left in a clunky disjointed state?

You would throw a fit, I know because I saw just that at the beginning of 4.0 and that was for only a couple of the things I listed.

Now imagine if not only were the issues with the job not fixed but the fact that there was even a problem wasn't being acknowledged. Then on top of that, the community often tells you "things are fine, the tanks are balanced better than ever" or "just deal with it and if you can't just switch jobs".

That would suck right? Well that's what is happening to DRK mains right now.

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Dont forget to add in that while your job is being cold shouldered, your other options are being treated like blue-ribbon cattle.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Because this has been a DRK echo chamber since well before 4.1.

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You poor baby. Let me find you a link to reddit so you can have a proper safe space.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Are you on the same tank forum as me? Because this has been a DRK echo chamber since well before 4.1. WAR posts stopped a long time ago.

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WAR posts generally stopped because they got catered to out of the gate. DRK's have been bitching about this and that since HW and even more so with the shitty rework it got at SB launch. While WAR got free stance swaps, HP sustain on Steel Cyclone, an AoE damage shield and no cost on Unchained/IR what has DRK gotten? Fucking Nothung(snark snark).

Wouldn't surprise me if PLD/WAR changes happen since that's where a majority of the Tank playerbase is now.

Since DRK is in the minority the devs don't give 2 flying fucks what happens to it. And if they do care they sure aren't showing it.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

what has DRK gotten? Fucking Nothung(snark snark).

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Hey now, we got that MP gain added to Quietus... aaaand we don't have any MP drain on Darkside anymore...
Oh and there's TBN guys! DRK is doing so great, it's in a really healthy spot now. There's always a spot in raids for a DRK, and we're on the same level, mitigation-wise, as PLD. The devs even said so themselves!

/s

Quietus started out with no MP gain and the MP gain on it now is just a band aid fix because they spaghetti coded Blood Price to be shit. Lack of MP drain is irrelevant since you never ran out of MP as a DRK in HW anyway.

Honestly DPS numbers would be fine if we still have our 500 pot dot that was Scourge in ADDITION to Bloodspiller.

But no apparently DRK is all about having a shitty kit and putting in a LOT OF WORK to just BREAK EVEN. And damn barely. Your kit is shit, your ULT is shit, your HP restore skill is a fucking MAYBE, but DRK is fine because TBN. Which I remind you has a recast time and a resource cost. Listed as an ability. And 90% of all abilities don't cost a resource.

All in all DRK is just a bad deal.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

But no apparently DRK is all about having a shitty kit and putting in a LOT OF WORK to just BREAK EVEN. And damn barely. Your kit is shit, your ULT is shit, your HP restore skill is a fucking MAYBE, but DRK is fine because TBN. Which I remind you has a recast time and a resource cost. Listed as an ability. And 90% of all abilities don't cost a resource.

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Do Scholar's just not exist to you?

I know that this is supposed to be ranting about how slighted DRK is (which I agree with) but the majority of classes I play have abilities that have resource costs, or hefty cooldowns. I don't really get why people keep advertising TBN as atrocious when it's probably part of why DRK is still viable (not necessarily preferred, but I can get as far in savage content as DRK as I can as WAR).

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Do Scholar's just not exist to you?

I know that this is supposed to be ranting about how slighted DRK is (which I agree with) but the majority of classes I play have abilities that have resource costs, or hefty cooldowns. I don't really get why people keep advertising TBN as atrocious when it's probably part of why DRK is still viable (not necessarily preferred, but I can get as far in savage content as DRK as I can as WAR).

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I did not know your Aetherflow abilities had MP costs.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Do Scholar's just not exist to you?

I know that this is supposed to be ranting about how slighted DRK is (which I agree with) but the majority of classes I play have abilities that have resource costs, or hefty cooldowns. I don't really get why people keep advertising TBN as atrocious when it's probably part of why DRK is still viable (not necessarily preferred, but I can get as far in savage content as DRK as I can as WAR).

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Yeah, thats why they changed shake it off right? Warriors were completely unable to clear content without it. :^)

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Do Scholar's just not exist to you?

I know that this is supposed to be ranting about how slighted DRK is (which I agree with) but the majority of classes I play have abilities that have resource costs, or hefty cooldowns. I don't really get why people keep advertising TBN as atrocious when it's probably part of why DRK is still viable (not necessarily preferred, but I can get as far in savage content as DRK as I can as WAR).

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Because only DRK has to choose between sacrificing DPS for mitigation whereas it's a last resort option for PLD and WAR. While I love TBN, its true potential would only ever come in scenario with near constant high amounts of tank damage-- enough where the other two tanks might be forced into using Clemency or Equilibrium/Inner Beast. They will never design a fight like that. Therefore, the one advantage TBN could have is completely worthless.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Yeah, thats why they changed shake it off right? Warriors were completely unable to clear content without it. :^)

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They changed shake it off because it was easy to do. Everyone* hated it, they made it a shield so that War could do something for the party other than hit hard, and everyone was pleased.

With DRK, nobody can really agree on what is the part that needs the most help, so there's no real way to determine how to get it up to scratch. TBN is, at the moment, the only advantage DRK has. It doesn't measure up to Shake It Off or Divine Veil for the same reason that Heavy Swing doesn't measure up to Goring Blade: they shouldn't be compared like that.

*: I certainly didn't hate the original, and have a bit of disdain for the current version, but apparently the minority doesn't count.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

They changed shake it off because it was easy to do. Everyone* hated it, they made it a shield so that War could do something for the party other than hit hard, and everyone was pleased.

With DRK, nobody can really agree on what is the part that needs the most help, so there's no real way to determine how to get it up to scratch. TBN is, at the moment, the only advantage DRK has. It doesn't measure up to Shake It Off or Divine Veil for the same reason that Heavy Swing doesn't measure up to Goring Blade: they shouldn't be compared like that.

*: I certainly didn't hate the original, and have a bit of disdain for the current version, but apparently the minority doesn't count.

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Your asterisk implies that in fact we don't need everyone just "enough" people.
I think most people would agree on the following:
1) Dark passenger is trash
2) Shadow Wall has too long a recast time
3) Delirium is underwhelming as a buff
4) Dark Mind is in need of update, mitigating only magic damage no longer makes sense

Despite having a large number of people complaining and bring back attention to these issues nothing has been done.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

... It doesn't measure up to Shake It Off or Divine Veil for the same reason that Heavy Swing doesn't measure up to Goring Blade: they shouldn't be compared like that. ...

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Or comparing costs on a healer to a tank, I get it. I'm also not going to pull damage dealer dps, I accept that as well. I accept that things have a cost, I don't get how a class with only 2 native cooldowns and 1 utility has a such a high cost on that utility when its equivalents are swimming in free cooldowns.

I appriciate that you feel for us, but realize telling us that "every class has costs" is ignoring the issues on this job when compared to what jobs filling a similar role do. And that isn't helping when dark knights have these conversations. Because the time spent defending ourselves that there is a problem is coordination time wasted.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

With DRK, nobody can really agree on what is the part that needs the most help, so there's no real way to determine how to get it up to scratch. TBN is, at the moment, the only advantage DRK has.

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An advantage that is overshadowed by how utterly unreliable it really is in content. for "5" seconds you can mitigate either 20% of your HP as a barrier on yourself, or 10% of your HP on an ally. For a quarter of your MP. Every ~20 seconds.
If it didn't cost as much, then it might be better to use, as it wouldn't put people in a position to decide "do I TBN, or use DA?" If it's timer was at least like 7 or so seconds, then it could mitigate more than just a single TB.

People complained that SiO was bad, and it was changed. People are complaining that DRK's in a bad way, and realistically *nothing* has been done to address this. This is where the contempt on this forum is coming from.
We're a tank that cannot mitigate damage as well as our counterparts, a tank that cannot deal as much damage as our counterparts, and a tank that has clunkier gameplay compared to our counterparts. Blackblood is a lackluster mechanic. TBN is a lackluster ult, both in use and design. DA and Darkside has become an inhibiting gimmick our job is held back by due to "class balance and fantasy."

Yes, it can "clear content" just as easily as every other job. So could SMN/SCH, and yet they got sustain back after much public outcry. So can monk, even though they're in similar straights to DRK as far as being addressed by the devs go. Same can be said about WHM, whose kit is still clunky as balls with the lily mechanic.

SE wanted to shake things up with SB. Too bad some of the ingredients fell out onto the floor, and only a few have been picked up thus far.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Your asterisk implies that in fact we don't need everyone just "enough" people.
I think most people would agree on the following:
1) Dark passenger is trash
2) Shadow Wall has too long a recast time
3) Delirium is underwhelming as a buff
4) Dark Mind is in need of update, mitigating only magic damage no longer makes sense

Despite having a large number of people complaining and bring back attention to these issues nothing has been done.

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Eh, I'm bitter about that change. It was actually good for some things, that just didn't happen to be savage content or dungeons. Now I don't have that option anymore.

And just because everyone agrees on those things, doesn't mean they agree on what needs to be done to bring DRK up to the level of the other two tanks. I've been watching a lot of the DRK threads, and there is very little consensus about what changes DRK needs. One person says "we shouldn't be afraid to ask for things that would make us needed", another says "these changes are over the top, the dev team won't take our issues seriously if we ask for this". This is taken out of context, yes, but it still highlights that nobody can agree on what Dark NEEDS to become viable, as opposed to what is holding it back.

Despite actually playing DRK all the way to Omega 3 Savage on farm (ignore this character's DRK level, I'm talking about an alt), I don't actually have an opinion of what should be done to fix it. I know something is wrong, but it works for the content I can play, so I don't see the negatives as overwhelmingly obvious.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Eh, I'm bitter about that change. It was actually good for some things, that just didn't happen to be savage content or dungeons. Now I don't have that option anymore.

And just because everyone agrees on those things, doesn't mean they agree on what needs to be done to bring DRK up to the level of the other two tanks. I've been watching a lot of the DRK threads, and there is very little consensus about what changes DRK needs. One person says "we shouldn't be afraid to ask for things that would make us needed", another says "these changes are over the top, the dev team won't take our issues seriously if we ask for this". This is taken out of context, yes, but it still highlights that nobody can agree on what Dark NEEDS to become viable, as opposed to what is holding it back.

Despite actually playing DRK all the way to Omega 3 Savage on farm (ignore this character's DRK level, I'm talking about an alt), I don't actually have an opinion of what should be done to fix it. I know something is wrong, but it works for the content I can play, so I don't see the negatives as overwhelmingly obvious.

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I hate to be that guy, but it isn't my job to hand SE a fix. It's my job as a player to tell them what isn't working, I can suggest things, but it is in no way my job to design their product. If warrior's had to have consensus on a raid shield then they wouldn't have gotten it. If dragoons had to have consensus that their skills needed to be raised 10 potency, lower their naitive buff, and lower the number of eye uses to 3, then those things wouldn't have happened.

And most people agree on what you could do at the base to fix some of the issues I listed.

Lower the cooldown on Shadow wall or lengthen its duration.

Raise the potency on dark passenger so it has a higher priority over dark arts.

Dark Mind should mitigate all damage now considering it is already weaker than the equivalents just by fact of being a vulnerability decrease.

Despite the higher bar of getting buffs, we have met it on many occasions. There are some wilder flavor to these ideas, sure, but at the minimum we agree that those things would fix the problem, I again cannot stress this enough, this is not a bar we should be responsible for meeting.

If we as players are expected to design and balance their classes then I would love to sit down and negotiate my contract, benefits, and pay.

create new job: "Darker Knight"

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Eh, I'm bitter about that change. It was actually good for some things, that just didn't happen to be savage content or dungeons. Now I don't have that option anymore.

And just because everyone agrees on those things, doesn't mean they agree on what needs to be done to bring DRK up to the level of the other two tanks. I've been watching a lot of the DRK threads, and there is very little consensus about what changes DRK needs. One person says "we shouldn't be afraid to ask for things that would make us needed", another says "these changes are over the top, the dev team won't take our issues seriously if we ask for this". This is taken out of context, yes, but it still highlights that nobody can agree on what Dark NEEDS to become viable, as opposed to what is holding it back.

Despite actually playing DRK all the way to Omega 3 Savage on farm (ignore this character's DRK level, I'm talking about an alt), I don't actually have an opinion of what should be done to fix it. I know something is wrong, but it works for the content I can play, so I don't see the negatives as overwhelmingly obvious.

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I mean, at least you acknowledge that the class needs help, which is more than can be said for the community at large. That "It can clear content" is such a trash argument.

The reason why no one can reach consensus on what to fix/address is because there's just so much that can be looked at, and many branching questions from "what's wrong?" Our DPS is bad: how do we fix it without overpowering the class? Our mitigation is bad: how can that be fixed without overshadowing the other two tanks (funny how SiO p.much has done exactly that now)? Our resource cost/management is dysfunctional: how do we streamline it? Our kit is lackluster overall: in what ways?

There's a lot of variables, and I honestly sympathize with the dev team because there's a lot that can go horribly, horribly wrong.

But, and this is the biggest kick in the pants: tanks are a small community, and even within this small community the divide between "___ mains" is clear as day. This is only going to become more exacerbated as more time goes on with this imbalance with the tanks, perceived or otherwise. It's a situation where a small, yet essential, subset of the playerbase is not happy, and their only options are to move to another branch within their current community (i.e. DRK's that either jump to WAR/PLD, or go to healer/DPS, or even let their sub lapse), or keep hoping against hope and continue to raise awareness for the issue, even in the face of "DRK is fine, it can clear content" dismissing comments.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

I mean, at least you acknowledge that the class needs help, which is more than can be said for the community at large. That "It can clear content" is such a trash argument.

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I apologise if I've offended, I don't use that "I can clear content with it" as a reason to deny buffs. Despite raiding savage, I'm well aware that I'm a mediocre player at best.