Can Healers Stop Running Ahead in Dungeons

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Originally Posted by Frizze

A good tank can control a smooth pull and set up their group to succeed(enmity, cooldowns, positioning, etc). A great tank can take a chaotic mess and turn it into a smooth pull.

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I've already said it is doable, just not enjoyable, and it is not my preferred way to play or learn. I pull just fine, when I see an opportunity to do more I do. A great tank can take chaotic mess and make it smooth but not every tank likes to be constantly doing that. Does that not make sense? Yes I have my "oh shit" skills that can help me gain control of the situation and mitigate damage but is this something I need to be doing all the time because someone is "hurting cause they can't do AOE"... That sounds like a personal issue to me.

My argument is, the tank is the tank, plain and simple. Each person is their own individual but we each have a role to play. That's why we have jobs/classes each with it's own strengths and weaknesses. It's kind of mind boggling this isn't already understood. If you're hurting that bad just say "Ouchy I need to do AOE or I'm going to die".

I'm actually over this nonsense myself and have found a very simple solution. To play how I want, let them play how they want, and see what happens. I am a human being trying to enjoy some game time and play socially with others, I do not owe anyone anything, I don't have to move at a set speed, I don't have to pull what you want me to, I just have to tank, that's it. Everyone who wasn't born yesterday knows what a tanks role is in a dungeon. Those who aren't clear on this will learn the hard way, plain and simple.

I came to this solution by thinking about how I play on my healer and why I don't engage mobs and run ahead of the tank. Do you know what the answer is? Because I don't want to die! :D Wow that was easy. It's like a no brainer.

Healers run past you if they want to do something. Pull sets of 2-3 and that keeps em happy. A sch with a pet up will cook dinner if you pull single sets.

They want to have fun, if they want more, they feel comfortable keeping you alive. Try trusting them?

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Originally Posted by Voidedge_Ragna

Healers run past you if they want to do something. Pull sets of 2-3 and that keeps em happy. A sch with a pet up will cook dinner if you pull single sets.

They want to have fun, if they want more, they feel comfortable keeping you alive. Try trusting them?

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they could also trust me regarding the pull size.

happened especially in ala mhigo at the two monkey robots after the first boss... i like to pull them one by one, because the monkeys have so much HP that aoe's aren't that effective and i also have to use too much defense for them, wich leads to problems when i pull the next group with the dogs to the wall into the other group there :O
but almost every time someone pulls the second monkey, usually the healer.

another example is fractal continuum hard mode, at the beginning. i prefer to pull the minotaur and chimera group one by one, because it's way easier to handle with dodging the minotaur and stunning the chimera without dozens of little enemys in between wich are pushing the two big ones around :X
it doesn't happen that often that someone pulls the chimera, but it happens often enough.

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Originally Posted by Aelio

I am a human being trying to enjoy some game time and play socially with others, I do not owe anyone anything, I don't have to move at a set speed, I don't have to pull what you want me to, I just have to tank, that's it.

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Alternatively, I can vote kick you, because I can easily just heal the dps through your one pack at a time pace while we wait for a tank that can do their job more efficiently.

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Originally Posted by Aelio

My argument is, the tank is the tank, plain and simple. Each person is their own individual but we each have a role to play. That's why we have jobs/classes each with it's own strengths and weaknesses. It's kind of mind boggling this isn't already understood. If you're hurting that bad just say "Ouchy I need to do AOE or I'm going to die".

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I knew there was a decent chance someone would take that line and misrepresent it to try and make their point. Allow me to elaborate. The only class i play in group content is BLM. I have a few other classes at various levels, but i dont feel my skill is high enough to bring them into "real" content. I wouldnt want some group of strangers to suffer because i decided to bring a class i suck at rather then what ive specialized in - my pride doesnt want me to give less then my best. And beyond that, its the class i enjoy so im always happy to bust out the big guns. So because i am always on BLM, every group im in has good aoe potential(with another class that has an aoe focus this becomes great or phenomenal potential). The way BLM aoes work, most of our spells dont suffer damage degradation(and with target switching i can manage the ones that do). Because of this, I can kill 4 groups in about the same amount of time i can kill 1 group. Knowing my potential to be better and do more, why would i be fully satisfied plinking my way through one at a time? I take pride in showing my best whenever possible, so why wouldnt it hurt me a little inside to do such a small amount of what im capable of? You say youre still learning tank, and thats fine. Id never pressure a new tank to go nuts. But i would tell them they can trust me to do my part if they do stretch themselves a little bit. I would tell them that i wont get upset if they try for more but cant handle it yet and the fight doesnt go smoothly. Hell, if they were on my server and having trouble id help them get some better gear afterwards. Id help hook them up with some of my super-experienced friends who could offer pointers about their class and whatever issues they have. You keep saying "the tank is the tank". Yes, but the tank is only 25% of the group. Youre important(to a point), but you arent god.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Alternatively, I can vote kick you, because I can easily just heal the dps through your one pack at a time pace while we wait for a tank that can do their job more efficiently.

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Im not gonna lie, ive BLM-tanked every dungeon from sastasha to shisui over the years(and ive started on the 70 dungeons too). Usually its: tank disconnects because of connection issues, group gets tired of waiting(or decides right away not to wait), we continue on fairly smoothly(this is mostly dependent on healer skill and i love every healer ive ever tried/pulled one of these off with - you guys rock). BLM is kinda overpowered for tanking purposes. Manawall and an attentive healer can handle all but the spiciest of tankbusters(BLM also benefits from being a class with a low death penalty - i can have all my mana back in 2-3 server ticks and be back into my rotation so my only downside would be weakness). Between an enmity reducer a dump and actual high damage spells managing agro isnt usually that hard. BLMs already need to think about positioning to perform at their peak, and as much as tanks complain about "mechanics" most of them seem to target DPS players anyway so we're used to it. Those groups are interesting and exciting, a real chance to be challenged and see how much i can do. One-group-at-a-time-tank pulls? I could do those fights with my monitor off. And i mean that literally - set healer to follow, tab for a target when i hear skills start to go off, i know exactly how many of each spell i have mana for and can do my aoe or single target rotations by memory, if i dont hear my spells and i still hear fighting then my target died and tab to the next, continue until fighting sounds stop. I dont know how that sounds to you, but it sure sounds boring to me.

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Originally Posted by Aelio

I've already said it is doable, just not enjoyable, and it is not my preferred way to play or learn... That sounds like a personal issue to me.

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Couldnt agree more.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Some people will push others to achieve greatness. But only the great will reach for it when given.

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People dont tend to learn skills they dont practice at. If one is never in a position where greatness is asked of them then how can they every truly become great?

You might have a better argument if dungeons weren't so pitifully weak that the whole "fine let the dps/healer keep what they pulled" didn't end in the dps not only winning but killing theirs faster than you.

Or allow for a RDM to tank the majority of Swallows Compass 3 man while waiting for the tank to reconnect.

You can dislike how your party goes about things, but the same answer for people complaining about low/weak performance in df applies here: use party finder instead.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Alternatively, I can vote kick you, because I can easily just heal the dps through your one pack at a time pace while we wait for a tank that can do their job more efficiently.

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I understand the frustration on both ends and as dps and occasionally heals, I make it a rule to stay behind the tank if possible. If it takes a little longer in the dungeon to let the tank pull slower, fine, no biggie. Aelio is annoying though so I am giving you a LIKE and praying that I never get a tank with healer hate in the future.

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Originally Posted by Besame

I understand the frustration on both ends and as dps and occasionally heals, I make it a rule to stay behind the tank if possible. If it takes a little longer in the dungeon to let the tank pull slower, fine, no biggie. Aelio is annoying though so I am giving you a LIKE and praying that I never get a tank with healer hate in the future.

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lol I don't have healer hate, I am a healer. The things I was saying was in relation to a dps but not that it matters too much. Anyone going in front of the tank and causing chaos is unnecessary. lol but feel free to be annoyed if you want.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

The percentage of healers and DPS who regularly run ahead of the tank in a dungeon scenario is fairly low - i see this less then once a month. If this is happening to you "constantly" then its possible that you are the problem.

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At the time of writing this I hadn't done a ton of dungeons but I had ran into some instances of this and had literally just got out of an annoying group where a dps was just doing his own thing. I agree that, since I've had more time to play, this doesn't happen all that often. I guess I just hit a streak of runs where I had some eager beavers. It's actually been just fine lately, no issues really. I still don't think people should run ahead of the tank and do what they want though. At the very least communicate something beforehand. While I've never minded myself about the pace of a tank, I encourage those that do to simply speak up before just doing whatever. The tank can do the same and should if needed.

On occasion things happen, I'm fine with some curve balls, I'd just hope that we can all agree on the roles we are supposed to be playing, and who should really be doing what lol. The tank is the damage receiver, he generally takes the least damage, she for you feminist, and her taking the damage makes it a bit easier for the healer to do their job in general. Again, I'm not hating on any particular role, I'm merely commenting on what I had experienced at the time. Regardless of their role though, I think you should follow your tank but if something seems off, just speak up. They will probably appreciate it.

Don't go stressing yourself out in trying to "save" people who pull first because if you're healing them then you'll get aggro and die a lot faster than that DPS who ran in like a Leeroy, and if it's the healer doing the pulls well then... your cure 2's can only heal you so much but give a few seconds with half a dozen mobs critting and doing their special moves on you and you'll be eating mud pie and only have yourself to blame for it and not the tank who is staring at you and wondering did your brain cells forget to resurrect with the rest of you the last time you KO'd.

On the other hand I know tanks who've rushed so far ahead of the party and try to kite pull a dozen mobs at once and expect the healer to keep them alive, either they've kited too far from the healer that they're already half-dead by the time they stop kiting or they're taking more damage than the healer can cure.

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

you'll be eating mud pie and only have yourself to blame for it and not the tank who is staring at you and wondering did your brain cells forget to resurrect with the rest of you the last time you KO'd.

On the other hand I know tanks who've rushed so far ahead of the party and try to kite pull a dozen mobs at once and expect the healer to keep them alive, either they've kited too far from the healer that they're already half-dead by the time they stop kiting or they're taking more damage than the healer can cure.

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This if funny cause I have been trying a balls to the wall method of dungeon running where I just kind of grab stuff, go crazy, and move almost before it's even over. I generally stun at the end or something. But yes I generally end up feeling bad cause I'm leaving my party behind.


There it is just another no brainer reason why you don't be a dumb F#1@!

What I mean by that is it's either too slow or too fast. Better just "trust me" like someone else claimed I needed to do for others lol. Trust goes both ways son. How bout you trust me or least say something.

But depending on dungeon we might as well let selene main heal and if you get a sch who doesnt dps he can auto follow afk. Is this the better alternative?

You dont need wall to wall pulls, but usually 2 sets is fine with a few cures and allows higher dmg.

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Originally Posted by geekgirl101

On the other hand I know tanks who've rushed so far ahead of the party and try to kite pull a dozen mobs at once and expect the healer to keep them alive, either they've kited too far from the healer that they're already half-dead by the time they stop kiting or they're taking more damage than the healer can cure.

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Kinda like the ones that try to double pull after the first wall in Bardam's. As annoying as it is being a waste of time, its hilarious watching the tank get instagibbed when they aggro the 2nd pack. Every time. The least they could do is communicate that they're going to do a suicide pull.

Alternatively: Can everyone else start keeping up in dungeons? Sprint is there for a reason. Nothing feels worse than having to heal up the extra 30k damage taken solely because the tank refused to pop Sprint just before entering combat. This comes mostly from a tank's perspective, rather than a healer's, as I queue generally dungeons only either on my main DPS or for tank instaqueue, but I find myself far more often pissed off from the sidelines (e.g. when running dungeons as a DPS) at a tank mismanaging pulls than at any "DPS healer".

There is nothing wrong with Regen being used during a pull unless the mobs are too spread for an AoE. Even then it's not an issue so long as the healer stacks on you. As a tank, I much prefer it to the healer lagging behind because of having to use a direct heal mid-pull. I've only twice had a disorderly pull due to it in 5 years of tanking, the first for all of two GCDs, and would have been no issue at all if there weren't so many casters among the mobs pulled or if the healer had just baited them to me, and the second only because the healer outright sprinted away from me, outside of Unmend range, with the mobs in tow.

As a i340 DRK I usually require just 1 or 2 HoTs / Adlos per Hell's Lid last mass-pull. TBN, CDs, DA-AD, and healer abilities take care of the rest. You're only really at risk if there isn't enough DPS going out for the CDs to affect the majority of the encounter's total damage taken (e.g. if there aren't a couple mobs dead, or all mobs at 15 seconds' or less HP) by the time all CDs are exhausted. As such I quite often worry for my life only if the healer isn't DPSing all out while my CDs are up.

As a tank, I find these slivers of tank entitledness disturbing. Learn to be efficient, and understand that your only purpose for being there is to accelerate the run. If you're having to hold anyone back outright, you're doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

As a tank, I find these slivers of tank entitledness disturbing. Learn to be efficient, and understand that your only purpose for being there is to accelerate the run. If you're having to hold anyone back outright, you're doing something wrong.

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I don't like this attitude, it puts a lot of pressure on the tank, and probably puts a lot of people off tanking.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I don't like this attitude, it puts a lot of pressure on the tank, and probably puts a lot of people off tanking.

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Definitely. A lot of people play this game for fun and even SE themselves have said that everyone is entitled to their own playstyle. If a tank wants to take it slow and easy, no one should be forcing them to play otherwise. Yes encouragement is always good but players should never be alienated for how they play, and it seems a sense of entitlement is coming from those who constantly expect fast runs, or to quote exactly "purpose for being there is to accelerate the run".

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I don't like this attitude, it puts a lot of pressure on the tank, and probably puts a lot of people off tanking.

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Tank "entitlement" lol. Tanks play the most boring, most knowledge required, most high pressure job in the game. I have no issue playing to their comfort level.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

Tank "entitlement" lol. Tanks play the most boring, most knowledge required, most high pressure job in the game. I have no issue playing to their comfort level.

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It's the most boring *and* the most high pressure? Wowee I don't know many who can be bored under high pressure.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

It's the most boring *and* the most high pressure? Wowee I don't know many who can be bored under high pressure.

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Tanks have very simple attack rotations, especially on a single target. They're also responsible for making sure nothing runs off and eats the rest of the party.

So yeah, it's boring to play, and there's some pressure involved. Personally I feel more pressured when healing, but I also don't really like healing in the first place, so that's probably a factor.

(Before someone mentions it; yes, I know, threat management is the whole party's responsibility, not just the tank's. Try getting that through the average PUG's heads. I dare ya.)

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I don't like this attitude, it puts a lot of pressure on the tank, and probably puts a lot of people off tanking.

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Fair enough. And as someone who runs nearly every roulette as a tank, yours is probably the kind of attitude that makes me regret roughly half of the few times I don't tank.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Definitely. A lot of people play this game for fun and even SE themselves have said that everyone is entitled to their own playstyle. If a tank wants to take it slow and easy, no one should be forcing them to play otherwise. Yes encouragement is always good but players should never be alienated for how they play, and it seems a sense of entitlement is coming from those who constantly expect fast runs, or to quote exactly "purpose for being there is to accelerate the run".

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You realize that goes both ways, right? If you're the outlier, your right to your playstyle comes at the cost of three to seven times as many other players' rights to theirs.

If you have a shield-capable healer, there's not a single piece of casual content that requires a tank. At some point, one has to point out, if you're both in conflict with the party and outright unnecessary, you shouldn't be expecting not to get the boot.

That's not to say you can't get a party of people who likewise refuse to use Sprint, pop CDs, or pull enough mobs for AoE to outpace focus-targeting. But if that's not the case, one should really check the numbers before insisting that they're free to play however they like it what is clearly not a single player game, especially when their playstyle is characterized, essentially, by detriment, not maximization. Even a lazy party is not going to be hurt by someone being hyper-competent. The reverse, however, is not true.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Yeah I know what you are saying but anyone who does content through DF should have no expectations to begin with, because you never know if you get players who perhaps are new, returners that haven't played for a while, or are relatively new to a job. Capable is really something we need to see in action first as I believe it's just common courtesy to show a little respect.

My only concern is that trust needs a little time to be built at the beginning of content, as a tank I'm not going to be pulling a ton of mobs straight away assuming everyone can handle it (or at least ask the group first) and as a DPS or Healer I'm not going to be pulling extra stuff just because I'm bored and want to get it done quickly. Like I said encouragement is good but being too over controlling can sometimes be detrimental depending on the content (and can damage the confidence of one of the roles panicking to keep up).

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

That being said, if the healer is properly balancing healing and dpsing, you actually can tank 5+ groups at once. Your defense is your responsibility, the health bar is the healer's responsibility.

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I tend to think the groups DPS is the biggest factor in how much you can pull. You can be the best tank in the world with the best healer in the world but if half that pull isn't dead or close to being dead by the time your cooldowns drop off. Your quite often going to be pretty much screwed.

In my experience that is often what has the biggest effect on the squishyness of a tank. If mobs die slow tanks die fast..

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

It's the most boring *and* the most high pressure? Wowee I don't know many who can be bored under high pressure.

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Pressure doesn't automatically equate to an engaging playstyle. Very simplistic damage rotations, combined with typically very little movement is just boring. The only thing a tank really has to do mechanics wise is be prepared for tank swaps and tank busters. What makes tanks boring, yet high pressure is that the mechanics they have to deal with have very heavy repercussions if they are not handled correctly. Failing to tank swap or properly mitigate will usually result in a wipe, whereas a DPS dying just doesn't matter that much except in hardcore raiding content.

You want to know why tanks and healers are the lowest played classes, it really comes down to simple game design.
Tank: Boring playstyle, high pressure
Healer: Somewhat engaging playstyle, high pressure
DPS: Very engaging playstyle, low pressure

That's a pretty darn easy choice lol

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I tend to think the groups DPS is the biggest factor in how much you can pull. You can be the best tank in the world with the best healer in the world but if half that pull isn't dead or close to being dead by the time your cooldowns drop off. Your quite often going to be pretty much screwed.

In my experience that is often what has the biggest effect on the squishyness of a tank. If mobs die slow tanks die fast..

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That's why I never pull mutiple enemy groups until I can check their DPS output. If it is crap, we are going to go slow.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

It's the most boring *and* the most high pressure? Wowee I don't know many who can be bored under high pressure.

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Put the square plug in the square hole or everyone dies.

Put the square plug in the square hole or everyone dies.

Put the square plug in the square hole or everyone dies.

Not saying tanking is, but I'm pretty sure something can be both high-pressure and dull.

I see all these comments here b*$*#ing about healers. Clean up your own backyard and stop complaining. I hope you complainers diaf every time from PO'd healers that read these boards :). I love da healers and rarely run with one that is not trying their best to keep baddies alive as do I when I have healed a group. *kudos*

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Put the square plug in the square hole or everyone dies.

Put the square plug in the square hole or everyone dies.

Put the square plug in the square hole or everyone dies.

Not saying tanking is, but I'm pretty sure something can be both high-pressure and dull.

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I'd have to still disagree. Perhaps if the post I quoted said "Most boring in some situation, most high-pressure in others." I would agree; however the way the post was written made them sound simultaneous. "Push the button or everybody dies!" is not simultaneously dull and high-pressure just because pushing a button is dull; it's just high pressure, because even though the action is dull, it's the context which is exciting. Whereas for something to be dull, there usually isn't any excitement at all, context or no.

Which is where I'll go back to the beginning of my post: if he separated the situations, I might have agreed. However, I will hold that a job cannot simultaneously be boring and high-pressure. Especially when that second argument is a weak point as well; I've heard tanks say that tanking is the easiest job in the game, then turn around and say healing is the most taxing and high pressure. Only for healers to disagree and say DPSing is the most high pressure due to managing a long stringed rotation in the middle of a lot of complex mechanics.

Actually, the more I type the more something comes to mind. Everything is dull in dungeon based content, and everything is high pressure in the harder content. Which hearkens back to context is king. So I'll cede that something can be dull in one context, and high pressure in another context entirely. However, in dungeon content, all three roles are just as dull.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I'd have to still disagree. Perhaps if the post I quoted said "Most boring in some situation, most high-pressure in others." I would agree; however the way the post was written made them sound simultaneous. "Push the button or everybody dies!" is not simultaneously dull and high-pressure just because pushing a button is dull; it's just high pressure, because even though the action is dull, it's the context which is exciting. Whereas for something to be dull, there usually isn't any excitement at all, context or no.

Which is where I'll go back to the beginning of my post: if he separated the situations, I might have agreed. However, I will hold that a job cannot simultaneously be boring and high-pressure. Especially when that second argument is a weak point as well; I've heard tanks say that tanking is the easiest job in the game, then turn around and say healing is the most taxing and high pressure. Only for healers to disagree and say DPSing is the most high pressure due to managing a long stringed rotation in the middle of a lot of complex mechanics.

Actually, the more I type the more something comes to mind. Everything is dull in dungeon based content, and everything is high pressure in the harder content. Which hearkens back to context is king. So I'll cede that something can be dull in one context, and high pressure in another context entirely. However, in dungeon content, all three roles are just as dull.

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I guess we can agree to disagree then.

I don't find min-maxing even leveling dungeons at all dull, once there are tool sufficient for there to be a difference in my gameplay and the total time taken between them. There's opportunity, and roughly proportionate reward, and therefore there is a manageable challenge to it.

The fact that that min-maxing isn't made necessary by fatal punishment doesn't take away from its opportunities for engagement. Inversely, something that provides no challenge to the player beyond the basest means is still going to be dull, no matter the pressure placed upon it. Any duty that, to you, "would be boring if not for the pressure placed upon you" is something I wouldn't start if I knew such was the case, would despise completing, and would leave the moment my actions weren't placing others at risk, never to do it again. It would high pressure, and it would be painfully dull. To me, those two things can be simultaneous. If I have to force myself engaged, rather than the gameplay itself engaging me, that's boring -- no matter how well I might accomplish its job for it. You don't stick 6 players in an empty desert and say that the desert itself wasn't dull just because the players found out they could enjoy talking to each other... in the complete absence of anything else to do.

A competitive match in Overwatch or SC2, etc. can be duller than a non-ranked one if there are fewer opportunities to actually do something, to outplay in macro or micro. Stakes alone do not engagement make. Nor does the possibility of time wasted. That's just an extreme level of sunk cost fallacy at play if one comes to think so.

Again, I'm not saying that tanking in XIV is dull, to me, at least. Neither do I find it particular high-pressure. But no amount of pressure is necessarily going to make it less boring. You can be bored while being frazzled and stressed out. Their not mutual exclusives. So if someone does find XIV tanking to be both dull and too pressured... so be it.

One of the reasons tanking is dull is because there's no variety in it. You know exactly when the tank buster will happen and exactly when you'll need cooldowns. And you know all of this before youve even pulled a boss. Because it's exactly the same as the last time you caught him. That is dull bland and boring.. i use to main a tank roll but these days I just don't bother it's so mundane..

They need to make encounters less scripted and more random. Throw out a tank buster when I'm not expecting one make fights unpredictable would also keep them interesting for longer as each encounter would be slightly different to the last and not an exact repeat

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You can be bored while being frazzled and stressed out. Their not mutual exclusives. So if someone does find XIV tanking to be both dull and too pressured... so be it.

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I'll agree to disagree, here. I'm trying to figure out the best way to word it, but I feel that boredom and high-pressure are mutually exclusive things. Of all the emotions I'd say I have pushing a button to stop a lot of people from dying, to go back to your first response to me, I wouldn't say boredom is one of them. That seems to be where we differ as people, because where you say you wouldn't play high pressure content that bored you, I'd say the high pressure is the engaging factor.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

One of the reasons tanking is dull is because there's no variety in it. You know exactly when the tank buster will happen and exactly when you'll need cooldowns. And you know all of this before youve even pulled a boss. Because it's exactly the same as the last time you caught him. That is dull bland and boring.. i use to main a tank roll but these days I just don't bother it's so mundane..

They need to make encounters less scripted and more random. Throw out a tank buster when I'm not expecting one make fights unpredictable would also keep them interesting for longer as each encounter would be slightly different to the last and not an exact repeat

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Except that tankbusters are mostly intended to be unsurvivable without cooldowns, so throwing tankbusters when you are not ready for them will just kill you without you being able to do anything about it.

As someone who tried all roles, this made me uncomfortable...

I started a a healer, and I know that healers run ahead is bad since not all tanks can pull immediately, especially when I'm overgeared. I tend to run between DPSes to make sure I don't accidentally pull mobs.
When running dungeons and trials as a tank, I make sure the party's ready for my pull. I'm okay with healers and DPSes who accidentally pull mobs, not the one who pull constantly. It's not their job to pull. I make sure the healer can heal me.

I'm surprised this thread is still going lol. It's all just common sense to me, the tank tanks, the tank pulls, the tank takes the damage, etc. Things happen and that's not a problem, I don't really sweat the small stuff. Nobody is required to go at anyone's preferred speed. I've even had tanks that I can tell are trying to learn a new class or something and this personally doesn't bother me at all. I just sit back, heal, and support the group. If I was a dps, I would have more of an urge to kill things and stuff might happen, that's fine, things don't have to be perfect, just don't be a belligerent douche lol. Some people have speedy expectations and that's on them. There is no "entitlement" here, it's called game mechanics lol. Y'all are crazy

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Originally Posted by Aelio

I'm surprised this thread is still going lol. It's all just common sense to me, the tank tanks, the tank pulls, the tank takes the damage, etc.

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It ends up less than common sense when you go from "we should clear as quickly as we can" to "only X may take damage, and even if X is in a better position than Y to fill Y's role for a few GCDs, and vice versa, neither should ever do anything but their own tasks."

What's the harm in someone ripping off a tank if the ripped mob is not going to lose out on AoE damage and will die before reaching the DPS without the DPS even having to run? What's the harm in a healer gathering mobs for AoEs, if his sprint is still available while the tank's is not, if he can take literally no effective damage from doing so? The mobs were still being tanked in either case -- which is to say that they were handled in a way that reduced incoming damage and improved the efficiency of damage the party could put out (through (a) sooner access to full AoEs and/or (b) through fewer healer GCDs that need be lost to healing or fewer tank GCDs that need be spent in a damage-reducing stance).

One can't help but wonder what would have happened to these specialist-as-the-only-one-who-can-complete-a-role-related-task hyper-fixated people in A4S during the isolated add-fight when a tank isn't available...

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Originally Posted by Aelio

You lost me at algebra.

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X and Y are just shorthand for "any given person" and "any second given person".

To reiterate more simply -- tanking (reducing effective raid damage taken and increasing raid damage doable by opening up space, redirecting enemy attention, and repositioning or grouping enemy mobs) something that is something any character can perform. It is any action which acts to that effect. It is not, however, any action as performed by a tank. A tank has the best toolkit for tanking, but that does not mean that a tank will tank simply because it possesses a, in most ways, superior tanking toolkit; that toolkit needs to actually be used effectively. Similarly, that toolkit does not make it uniquely capable of most of those tasks. Anyone who can create distance over which enemy attacks are ineffectual, bait out AoEs away from others, and gather enemies, etc., can to some degree tank. "Tanking hits" in the sense of surviving otherwise one-shot attacks (or, "tank-busters") is the only unique advantage available to tanking specialists.

Far too often people conflate a tank's unique ability to survive a massive strike, or their greater mitigation efficiency, with a need to command attention of every mob from the moment they are engaged to the moment they die, even if it means taking longer and, in effect, more damage, all without the risk of even taking an extra healing GCD actually paying off. If it's best practice, it will correlate pretty well directly to speed. If it has no, or a negative, impact on speed, then something's gone wrong -- likely due to a role being either slightly misinterpreted, or not capitalized upon well enough.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It ends up less than common sense when you go from "we should clear as quickly as we can" to "only X may take damage, and even if X is in a better position than Y to fill Y's role for a few GCDs, and vice versa, neither should ever do anything but their own tasks.".

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You lost me at algebra. All anyone has to do is their best, nothing else is required of them. It's all about expectation at the end of the day. Sometimes people expect the roads to be clear when they drive to work, sometimes they aren't cause that's life. Sometimes, you expect someone to know the dungeon and their class like the back of their hand and also to move at your desired speed and pull the desired amount of mobs you see fit; at the end of the day it's expectation. Maybe it's my expectation that people understand the role of a tank, I suppose I'm guilty for that but the mechanics of the game, and pretty much any game, lay out what the role of the tank, healer, and dps are supposed to be, we wouldn't have roles for them otherwise.

If you are in a group where people are being obnoxious, just do you, all you can do at the end of the day is the best you can, don't sweat it. Hopefully these "experienced wonderful players" will offer advice and try to help but if the end result ends up in you getting kicked then so be it. I haven't ran into that myself but just saying, don't get discouraged. These things take time. It takes time to learn mechanics, dungeons etc and to be able to perform, if you choose to do so (it's really not required and sometimes just makes things more stressful imo), how some of these other players are performing. Tanks can be just as guilty of this as well. Running ahead without paying any mind to your group or even testing the capabilities of your healer isn't a wise decision imo. There's that expectation again... Now those that accept the consequences of their actions and provide constructive criticism and adapt to the party to make it through, I don't have a problem with. To be honest, I don't have a problem with any of it anymore. You play how you want, I'm gonna play how I want. If you don't like it, you can vote dismiss, I'll get into another group in 5 seconds lol. And that's the mentality people should have. You can't control what other people do, and if they have narrow minded expectations, that's on them.

All of that being said, yes we all like for things to move rather quickly and to get done in a timely fashion, I want this too. I've had some pretty bad tanks myself that don't know how to hold aggro etc. and it's frustrating but I just do my best to support the group and make it through, that's me. I do offer advice but sometimes they don't read lol.

What I'm trying to say is, leave others to their expectations, you do the best you can and know that that is good enough. In time you will learn, you will improve, or maybe you're just fine the way you are and you just need a different group. It's pretty circumstantial so play it by ear but the last thing you want are people who are afraid to tank/heal because of others expectation and a hostile community.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

One can't help but wonder what would have happened to these specialist-as-the-only-one-who-can-complete-a-role-related-task hyper-fixated people in A4S during the isolated add-fight when a tank isn't available...

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Moving past the math, yes this is another point I would like to make. I think sometimes, I felt this way myself starting out, people think that cause they are the tank they should control every tiny aspect there is. I strongly believe you should follow your tank and have a little trust but there may be times were help is good and other roles can do things. This is maybe another thing that should be said, don't feel like you have to control everything as a tank cause you can't. The more you accept that the more fun you will have. If others want to play as they will, let them, it is a game at the end of the day.

There is constructive outside role playing (not that kind) and there is unconstructive. I'm mainly referring to the unconstructive but on the same note, don't feel as a tank that you have to control every little aspect. This honestly took me time to learn. If someone wants to run off and do w/e, there is literally nothing you can do about it anyway. Which goes back to my do the best you can and that's it. Don't feel bad cause someone ran off and did w/e they wanted, if you can grab w/e they did then cool, if not, cool still. Be breezy and just do the best you can.

Edit: I don't read all of your stuff for some reason but I see you were more being overly critical of the role of a tank to always take the dmg etc. Of course there are instances, specially boss fights, where the tank should remain on the boss and the DPS should handle adds. If the tank can grab them kudos but many times yall can drop em just as fast. I was referring mainly to the common sense of roles and common sense in general but thanks for the input, I hope I added some clarity to the situation.