is it okay to not enjoy big pulls?

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Are you serious?


Guess you're not alone.

Melee DPS have AoE skills too, you know, and some of them are pretty good.

I don't know where either of you are getting this idea that melee DPS don't benefit from large pulls (or that they benefit so much less from them than ranged or caster DPS), but you're wrong.

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This! lol the only melee whos aoe is awful is DRG but the rest of them are great especially SAM which is almost SMN tier of aoe

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

This! lol the only melee whos aoe is awful is DRG but the rest of them are great especially SAM which is almost SMN tier of aoe

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Actually dragoon has a 140 potency and 170 potency aoe skill

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Are you serious?

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Boy, there are certain dungeons where mass pulls make sense for aoe, and there are dungeons where they don't make sense depending on your party composition.

This was one where it wouldn't have made sense.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Boy, there are certain dungeons where mass pulls make sense for aoe, and there are dungeons where they don't make sense depending on your party composition.

This was one where it wouldn't have made sense.

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Git good :)

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Boy, there are certain dungeons where mass pulls make sense for aoe, and there are dungeons where they don't make sense depending on your party composition.

This was one where it wouldn't have made sense.

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You said it was Dusk Vigil, so you're wrong. Cute response though.

Here's my opinion.

1. A tank who pulls small is insulting the DPS.
2. A healer who doesn't DPS is insulting the tank.
3. DPS who don't try to optimize their AoE are insulting everyone.

Now, these aren't hard and fast rules. Point 3 simply doesn't apply below L40 by an large because so many still don't have AoE. Point 1 also is harder to apply in leveling dungeons specifically because of how tight the sync is. You need to be a lot more careful about how you pull.

In the ARR leveling dungeons especially (sans the first section of Darkhold) I find multi-pulling is generally detrimental. For the HW dungeons it's doable if both the tank and the healer are gear synced (i150+ generally) but even at sync Vault and especially Gubal can cause problems if even one person in the party isn't on point. SB dungeons, Sirensong and Shisui are more or less the same as the HW dungeons with the only potentially dangerous pull being the double pull immediately after second boss of Sirensong. Bardem's Mettle? Ha! Don't even try it without a premade. I've never seen that go right in DF. Doma Castle and Castrum Abania I find two packs and stop is a good rule.

When it comes to the 50/60 dungeons though? Wall to wall. Only exception I can think of being first section of Baelsar's Wall with the sky armors and the archers. If you pull wall-to-wall, use your cooldowns and AoE, and still fail, it usually isn't your fault. That's generally, not always but generally on the healer, because god forbid they actually have to do more healing than Largesse+Regen.

70 dungeons require a bit more care in most groups I find. Wall-to-wall pulls are possible for sure but in a DF pug group it can be sketchy. My rule of thumb is to pull until I've pulled enough that I can't justify dropping tank stance right away. Given that most aren't at i340 (I'm i319 on PLD myself and that's my highest) I find that usually means double pulls most of the time, sometimes a triple pull if the group as a whole is really good.

Just remember, it's better to try and fail than to not try at all. In fact, failing to try and improve yourself no matter what job you're playing or what content you're doing, is the biggest insult of them all. No one likes someone who isn't willing to try.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

How exactly are you a slacker for doing small pulls instead of grabbing half the dungeon? Also to that other person. I'm not sure what world he lives in. But maybe he should realize it's not as many as he believes thinks that way. Let's not take a personal view and claim everyone thinks that.

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Because we know what an optimal run looks like. In many (probably most) cases, it's a wall to wall pull with a big defensive CD and lots of AoE damage.

But, that is hard and takes effort. So, people opt for worse strategies. So, I called it what it is: slacking.

I'm not saying this maliciously. It's just like never dropping tank stance or using only aggro combos. It's a lack of will to optimize because it's hard.

Edit: I realize that the discussion is less about difficulty and more about fun. However, the end result is the same, regardless of why something does or doesn't happen.

I've met a BLM who refused to AoE. When I asked him why, he said he hated the AoE rotation and it was boring. We ended up kicking him. Regardless of his reasoning, he was holding us back. Did it feel bad to do? Of course. But, that's the way it goes.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

You said it was Dusk Vigil, so you're wrong. Cute response though.

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What's cute is you thinking all dps have equally good aoe in every situation.

Big pulls wouldn't have made it faster. We cleared the dungeon in a reasonable amount of time despite the WHM dropping.

And just to keep it on topic, a tank shouldn't pull more than they're comfortable pulling. That's what it comes down to, though knowing where big pulls are a smart choice is a factor as well.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Git good :)

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That's hilarious considering the source

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

What's cute is you thinking all dps have equally good aoe in every situation.

Big pulls wouldn't have made it faster. We cleared the dungeon in a reasonable amount of time despite the WHM dropping.

And just to keep it on topic, a tank shouldn't pull more than they're comfortable pulling. That's what it comes down to, though knowing where big pulls are a smart choice is a factor as well.

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All AoE is not made equal, for sure. But, the perception that melee classes have terrible AoE is mostly unwarranted. They are weak in that they can run out of TP quickly (which the pull should be dead before mostly anyway), and some of them have awkward aiming conditions (looking at DRG).

But, all classes are capable of putting out good AoE DPS. Melee classes have a more difficult time of it (so your average terrible DF DPS will suck at it) but they can definitely compete.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

That's hilarious considering the source

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It was a joke , but regardless big pulls are the norm. If a tank doesn't like big pulls maybe they should play a different job. Wasting an extra ten minutes of people's time because u only wana pull Three adds at a time is Just wrong. Dragoon has four aoes, sam has four aoes. NInja has three, monk has four so I don't understand this melee don't have aoes nonsense. Also tanks have aoes to they should use them. People just make excuses for doing a simple trash pull

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Dragoon has four aoes, sam has four aoes. NInja has three, monk has four so I don't understand this melee don't have aoes nonsense.

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Its not that melee do not have AoE; they (melee) frequently do not use AoE because they fundamentally do not understand that a smaller number hitting multiple targets is more damage that their "strong" skills on a single target. Also, they hate the TP costs because Invigorate and Goad are foreign concepts.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

What's cute is you thinking all dps have equally good aoe in every situation.

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Interesting; tell me what else I think.

You're still wrong, by the way.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Actually dragoon has a 140 potency and 170 potency aoe skill

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Lol clearly you dont play DRG but death spike and sonic thrust are both weaker then tanks aoe so it is a complete waist of time unless you are trying to save BOTD

My only advice is start small & work u'r way up very slowly... thou u can ignore the "very" part once/if u have an understanding of how all healer classes "basic" skills work, have learned to judge probable heal strength by Gear ilv & have been pared with every DPS combo for 4-mans possible in nearly any leveling dungeon (these 3 info parts are to gradually increase u'r judgement skills for party STR via-1st dungeon pull senarios).

Those 3 info bits aside the only way to "Master" Tanking is... well to Tank, & I mean OFTEN, so much so that in a near asleep daze u can somehow tank a whole dungeon (Bosses & dubble pulls) while still doing Def CD rotation & Arrgo management. Not kidding its a sign u've Tanked to much when u can do that... I have & I had to pull a dubble take to be sure I just did what I did (checked with RL friend who was the healer too & went to bed after). The real question is "Is Mass pulling sposta be fun?" & the answer is: "thats up to u"

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Lol clearly you dont play DRG but death spike and sonic thrust are both weaker then tanks aoe so it is a complete waist of time unless you are trying to save BOTD

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http://i3.asn.im/Waist-of-time-_t23a.png


Even if melees except SAM tend to have weaker AoE skills compared to other DPS, pulling big and using those AoE skills is still more efficient than pulling small and single-targetting like you'd do in Sastasha. Understanding this is as simple as 1+1=2.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

So I've been practicing drk and decided to start trying out bigger pulls. The first try was a disaster. My healer couldn't keep up and became hostile and left along with the rest of my group shattering my confidence. I tried again and did better the second time and got a nice pep talk from my second group.

However despite getting better at bigger pulls I just can't say I enjoy them. Their honestly stressful and not fun at all. I know the a big part of tanking is setting the pace of the dungeon and every dps and their mother wants to rush a dungeon but honestly I don't.

I guess I'm looking for some advice from the more veteran tanks.

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This. Always this. Start small and if you feel comfortable, mention it to the players. They're more likely to understand if you advise them ahead of time. Don't just rush in and pull the whole room without being confident you know that you're okay with it and your healer is okay. Don't sprint when you pull. As most healers don't know what the sprint button is either. lol.

But pull normally at 3-6 and move higher if you can. If you play from DPS view, you can actually see where and when stopping points will be on tank too. Ask your fc for a unsynced practice run with a capped out tank and healer to get an understanding! That's what I do to help train players in our groups :)

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

You aren't enjoying it as you are trying to go all in. Explain to the party that you are not comfortable with big pulls but you will gradually keep pulling bigger. This doesn't mean pull tiny packs of 3 etc but start grabbing 6 and build up.

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This. So much this! Don't just rush in and pull the whole room without being confident you know that you're okay with it and your healer is okay. Don't sprint when you pull. As most healers don't know what the sprint button is either. lol.

But pull normally at 3-6 and move higher if you can. If you play from DPS view, you can actually see where and when stopping points will be on tank too. Ask your fc for a unsynced practice run with a capped out tank and healer to get an understanding! That's what I do to help train players in our groups :)

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

But, what I will say is that you are probably playing the worst tank for a person that doesn't enjoy big pulls, since so many of DRK's abilities are directly reliant on pulling big.

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Best post here IMO

Since I've been leveling drk recently this has become quite apparent. That and the fact that shadow wall is practically DRK's only native damage reduction CD for big pulls (I'm not 70 yet so don't have TBN), it seems like you get one good big pull then have to piece the rest together. I think I've done OK so far, one of my healer friends said if anyone told me drk was squishy I could rightly tell them to stfu. So I'll take that as a compliment at least lol.

Regarding big pulls tho, I mean I get a little nervous if it's a blind run (or like most of these it's my fist time back since initially leveling so I don't remember that much), but once you do it once or a few times you'll find it's quite literally the exact same CD rotation over and over again. There are still things that can be a little stressfull, such as large mobs hit boxes shuffling around smaller mobs you may need to kill first (Kugane castle bomb goblin things come to mind), or just in general if you've got a lot of stuff trying to fit it under salted earth, or you know the random straggler that occasionally gets away. But it all becomes quite ordinary after doing them a few times, and I'd think like many others have mentioned, you'll start to realize how much of a waste it is to use CDs on 2-3 mobs at a time, not just tank damage reduction cds but dps popping cds as well.

You can really make due just doing double pulls, you don't have to pull a whole floor, but you can easily grab 2 sets of mobs at a time and it really makes the dungeon much smoother.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

Its not that melee do not have AoE; they (melee) frequently do not use AoE because they fundamentally do not understand that a smaller number hitting multiple targets is more damage that their "strong" skills on a single target. Also, they hate the TP costs because Invigorate and Goad are foreign concepts.

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Lets be honest the TP costs are a pain in the ass and yes i use invigorate, but that is just a drop if i have another melee or brd/mch in my party who refuse to use aoe and don't use refresh or goad on me. And thats very often sadly.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

http://i3.asn.im/Waist-of-time-_t23a.png


Even if melees except SAM tend to have weaker AoE skills compared to other DPS, pulling big and using those AoE skills is still more efficient than pulling small and single-targetting like you'd do in Sastasha. Understanding this is as simple as 1+1=2.

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When did I say single target and skip aoes I agreed with the person about melee can aoe just like other classes all I added was how crappy and pointless DRG aoe is besides it's usefulness with BOTD..I need you to read instead of trying to sound smart

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

When did I say single target and skip aoes I agreed with the person about melee can aoe just like other classes all I added was how crappy and pointless DRG aoe is besides it's usefulness with BOTD..I need you to read instead of trying to sound smart

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I think she might be pointing out "waist of time" portion of your post.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Lol clearly you dont play DRG but death spike and sonic thrust are both weaker then tanks aoe so it is a complete waist of time unless you are trying to save BOTD

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She put it in bold.

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

I know the a big part of tanking is setting the pace of the dungeon and every dps and their mother wants to rush a dungeon but honestly I don't.

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So don't. As you said, you set the pace. If it's not super dooper sonic fast like they want, to hell with them. If they have a problem with it, explain that you don't want to pull big. If they have a problem with that, they can quit and find a different party.

My view on being comfortable with big pulls on tank has always been that the tank is by far the least important part of the success of the pull, so it doesn't matter if you're comfortable with them or not.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Lol clearly you dont play DRG but death spi

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Clearly u don't read tool tips, 130 potency is stronger than pali 100 potency aoe, sonic thrust is 170 potency. Dragonfire dive every two mins geirskogul, every 35 seconds. Plus u have tons of buffs to boast ur aoe, bfb , life surge, heavy thrust works on aoe to, plus battle latency. I'm level64 but clearly u been handling mobs wrong dragoon has plenty of aoe tools

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Originally Posted by Transient_Shadow

However despite getting better at bigger pulls I just can't say I enjoy them. Their honestly stressful and not fun at all. I know the a big part of tanking is setting the pace of the dungeon and every dps and their mother wants to rush a dungeon but honestly I don't.

I guess I'm looking for some advice from the more veteran tanks.

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tank how you want as long as you keep agro and the party survives thats all that matters. if they piss n moan about that just let them either kick you or leave.... they have to re-queue for a long time and you'll get a almost instant enter into the next roulettes, dungeons may take some time on the lower leveled dungeons as you dunno how many are trying to get in.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Clearly u don't read tool tips, 130 potency is stronger than pali 100 potency aoe, sonic thrust is 170 potency. Dragonfire dive every two mins geirskogul, every 35 seconds. Plus u have tons of buffs to boast ur aoe, bfb , life surge, heavy thrust works on aoe to, plus battle latency. I'm level64 but clearly u been handling mobs wrong dragoon has plenty of aoe tools

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Basically Heavy Thrust buff will put your Doom Spike to 149.5pot and Sonic Thrust to 195.5pot and that is per enemy hit, we have not included Nastrond and Geirskogul and Dragon Sight's 10% yet. Compare to tanks' potency with their tank stance up is lower for sure. Paladin's Total Eclipse is 110pot btw.

Every class has their AOE rotations so IDK what that guy claims, but well he pays for his sub anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Basically Heavy Thrust buff will put your Doom Spike to 149.5pot and Sonic Thrust to 195.5pot and that is per enemy hit, we have not included Nastrond and Geirskogul and Dragon Sight's 10% yet. Compare to tanks' potency with their tank stance up is lower for sure. Paladin's Total Eclipse is 110pot btw.

Every class has their AOE rotations so IDK what that guy claims, but well he pays for his sub anyway.

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Like I said Im just level 64 loving dragoon by the way but , I have about three jobs left to level after dragoon and I have never felt I didnt have enough aoe on any job. Some people in here just clearly dont read tool tips , just really triggers me thanks for pointing out about dragon sight havent gotten it yet but lookin forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

http://i3.asn.im/Waist-of-time-_t23a.png

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Either that woman completely misunderstood when someone told her to "watch her waistline" or Flava Flav is her personal stylist.

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Originally Posted by Kohdo

So don't. As you said, you set the pace. If it's not super dooper sonic fast like they want, to hell with them. If they have a problem with it, explain that you don't want to pull big. If they have a problem with that, they can quit and find a different party.

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I really don't get this viewpoint, and a lot of tanks seem to have it. You're essentially playing a team based game, why do you think your feelings matter more than the rest of the party's? "I don't want to" isn't a valid reason to not do big pulls when the other three people "want to."

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Snip

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Because you're the one tanking, not them. Because you've assumed responsibility for getting the group through the dungeon that they have not. If the group wiping is going to be your fault then you deserve to be in control of at least what is currently being pulled and tanked. I understand DPS are impatient after sitting in the queue for probably half an hour. I see plenty of healers who are DPS that rerolled for faster queues. I myself have probably done the dungeon 30-50 times already and I'm more than capable of speed running. It's still nice to be able to slow down once in a while and breathe.

This is supposed to be a game, it's supposed to be fun. If you're going to make it stressful that's the opposite of fun and I'm going to stop playing. Tanks are always in demand because it's a stressful role. Why add to that?

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

Because you're the one tanking, not them.

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So?? You chose to tank. You're not taking on some great burden against your will. Yes, it's a game, but, again, it's a team game. If tanking according to your group's desires stresses you out so much, reroll as another role. Tanking is the easiest job in dungeons in the first place at 50, 60 and 70. Hold hate, position mobs, rotate cooldowns and self healing as necessary, do some extra dps if you want. That's it. You're only responsible for the group wiping if you don't do the first three.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

So?? You chose to tank. You're not taking on some great burden against your will. Yes, it's a game, but, again, it's a team game. If tanking according to your group's desires stresses you out so much, reroll as another role. Tanking is the easiest job in dungeons in the first place at 50, 60 and 70. Hold hate, position mobs, rotate cooldowns and self healing as necessary, do some extra dps if you want. That's it. You're only responsible for the group wiping if you don't do the first three.

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Summing things in two words sentences allways end up easy:

-Dealing damages
-Healing a bunch and dealing some damages

Everything seems quite easy when you simplify it to the easiest point.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Summing things in two words sentences allways end up easy:

-Dealing damages
-Healing a bunch and dealing some damages

Everything seems quite easy when you simplify it to the easiest point.

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I definitely didn't use two word sentences, but sure I'll bite; what makes tanking in dungeons so much more stressful than any other role?

It's a matter of responsability, pacing choice, mistakes that will impact the whole group and that no other player will be able to deal with.

A dps does shit ? Well he dies, and the team continue even if he is dead.

The healer is on a same duty basis : You screw, everyone dies. The difference here is the role is mainly reactive and while a good healer will have to be reactive and pro active, he don't need to and can learn at a slower pace, just keeping everyone alive and focusing on this duty.

The tank on his side, is responsible on the pace , his own survival which is essential to the survival of the whole team, and threat which is fought against the DPS Performances of the two DPS présents. Pull a pack of three and get two BLM single target focusing two different ennemies, and you will get the whole "against" part.

It's no randomness that the tank are few and fewer. They endoss stress, criticism and heavy responsabilities, and while anyone can survivre a dungeon with a healer that is slow or healing focused, or a DPS that focus one target, avoid zoning or just play badly, a tank that is poorly played will end up in the worst experience you can have.

Then, if tanks are the easiest to play, why are they so few ?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

So?? You chose to tank. You're not taking on some great burden against your will. Yes, it's a game, but, again, it's a team game. If tanking according to your group's desires stresses you out so much, reroll as another role. Tanking is the easiest job in dungeons in the first place at 50, 60 and 70. Hold hate, position mobs, rotate cooldowns and self healing as necessary, do some extra dps if you want. That's it. You're only responsible for the group wiping if you don't do the first three.

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I'm not saying I'm a martyr. Play any MMO and it'll be the same story for the same reason. Precisely because it's a team game you need to trust that your teammates have a reason for doing what they do. I might not pull wall to wall, for example, because I may see the two melee DPS in the group and know they'll lose more uptime dodging AoE than we'll gain from picking up another pack. Or that the healer won't be able to contribute DPS at that point. Or that adding the next pack on top of the pack and patrol I just pulled is going to stack up 3 AoEs which are going to be more groupwide damage than the healer can keep up with. In another game in another life, maybe I knew that pulling a third group of those dwarves meant that the entire party would be stunlocked to death.

It sounds like you're trying to take the opposite argument of "It's my sub, I do what I want," and say, "Yeah, well its our subs and we outnumber you, so you do what we want!" No. Nobody is anyone's boss here. They have their own job to do and as long as they're doing it, leave them alone.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I definitely didn't use two word sentences, but sure I'll bite; what makes tanking in dungeons so much more stressful than any other role?

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The role itself isnt stressful. Its completely dependent on the individual and the random group they get paired with. Casuals who like to take things slow who dont friends to run with often get paired with hardcore speed runners who dont have friends to run with. Thats where stress comes from in these situations imo.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

The role itself isnt stressful. Its completely dependent on the individual and the random group they get paired with. Casuals who like to take things slow who dont friends to run with often get paired with hardcore speed runners who dont have friends to run with. Thats where stress comes from in these situations imo.

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Dont have friends*

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

The role itself isnt stressful. Its completely dependent on the individual and the random group they get paired with. Casuals who like to take things slow who dont friends to run with often get paired with hardcore speed runners who dont have friends to run with. Thats where stress comes from in these situations imo.

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Yeah. The tank jobs are, by design, simpler than the DPS jobs. The complexity comes from adding in situational awareness and requiring the player to be proactive rather than reactive. You then put someone who is still learning those things in with people who have already run the content into the ground and it can make for a really bad time.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

It sounds like you're trying to take the opposite argument of "It's my sub, I do what I want," and say, "Yeah, well its our subs and we outnumber you, so you do what we want!" No. Nobody is anyone's boss here. They have their own job to do and as long as they're doing it, leave them alone.

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Hey those are all valid points that you listed and all of those would be acceptable reasons for a tank to not pull big. However, the post I was originally replying to boiled down to "you're the tank. Just tell them that you don't want to pull big and if they don't like it they can leave." However the response to that statement should be "no, we'll just vote kick you and replace you, rather than deal with such selfish reasoning."