Kick Abuse

/kickseveryoneoffthisthread

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Originally Posted by Kogekigami

I id explain that i felt it was faster as i crit much higher on single target. Also mana controls. Idk i find it do more dmg (to the point i was ripping it from him a few time or close to it) single target. I wonder if it was because of tht he demanding aoe. but if he was struggling he could of asked me to watch my aggro more carefully.

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I don't agree with you being kicked but this rationalization is totally wrong. Also you must know that if a tank is tanking multiple mobs you spamming away on a single target is going to eventually pull it.
Should they have kicked you, no - but I'm sure that most would want to. Is that right, no - but people want efficiency in PuGs.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

While it may be allowed now, I really, really hope they don't allow something like that (not DPSing in the exact way someone wants, IE, not holding the group back in any appreciable way) to become a validated reason to kick. In my opinion that just breeds elitism. People really shouldn't go into DF with randoms and expect top tier playing. At the end of the day, it was just shitty of them to kick someone for that reason. It really sucks for DPS because after being kicked for such a stupid reason they're probably looking at a 30+ minute queue to get back in.

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Expecting players to use AOE skills during large pulls is hardly being elitist or expecting "top tier play." Please. Since this was an Expert Roulette, standard pulls in those three dungeons are usually 5+ mobs, which means DPS should be using their AOE skills. You'd be surprised at how slow duties can go when your DPS choose to single target packs of 5+ mobs.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Expecting players to use AOE skills during large pulls is hardly being elitist or expecting "top tier play." Please. Since this was an Expert Roulette, standard pulls in those three dungeons are usually 5+ mobs, which means DPS should be using their AOE skills. You'd be surprised at how slow duties can go when your DPS choose to single target packs of 5+ mobs.

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I answered this already. I'm saying people shouldn't immediately kick people who aren't playing well.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

The real toxicity rarely comes from the high end players who, lets be honest, tend to group together. It comes from the players who don't make any effort and don't care to demanding everyone else just deal with it because "its just a game" or the previously mentioned "my sub" yada yada.

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Yes, "but my sub" is a stupid argument. See above. You have to be playing exceptionally bad, in my opinion, to deserve being kicked. I don't mean let's not kick the BLM that's casting only Blizzard 1 and ignoring any advice people give him. At that point, I'd say that's deserved. This entire situation in this particular thread is pure hearsay, I think it was incredibly shitty of their friend to hold the run hostage, but if the OP was making an honest attempt at DPSing without knowing how much that was hurting the group, then being kicked wasn't deserved. If you consider that toxic or elitist, I'm really unsure of what to tell you.

And before we try to make this personal, I've been kicked a grand total of one time in the two years I've been playing; coincidentally, the situation at hand involved a bard getting mad that I gave this dragoon who wasn't doing very good DPS (apparently) Balance instead of them. I just try to approach the game with a good attitude. I read all these stories on the forums, and yet, people in my groups are almost never kicked; I hardly ever seen kicks even get initiated. My experience in DF has been by and large smooth and not too stressful, and DF is the only "content" I do, so how people are constantly running into these horror shows is beyond me.

This community has a fairly poor view towards everyone needing to follow the established meta or kicking you from the dungeon run. To me, if the dungeon is getting cleared and everyone behaves in a mature, polite manner - there's zero grounds for kicking someone. Yes, the run might go a bit slower than you'd like and yes you may get triggered because someone else isn't playing their class "optimally". However, to me since the kick option doesn't even have a relevant option for play style this should not be an allowed reason to kick someone.

I would go as far as to say that GMs should punish players who abuse the kick option. If you don't want to deal with other people and different play styles, run the dungeon with your friends, fc or link-shell. If you're using DF, have a bit of patience and tolerance.

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Originally Posted by Kogekigami

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Not being able to kick people for different playstyles would be a slippery slope situation honestly. What if the players playstyles was to just autoattack the mobs and nothing else? Should the rest of the party have to deal with that player because they cannot kick that player due to different playstyles? The GMs are just blanket allowing players kick others for differing playstyles so they do not have to create rules for every specific instance of what would be allowable vote kicking and what is not under different playstyles. I can understand where you are coming from, but you do need to also see it from Squeenix's side too. It is not a perfect solution, but it is the easiest one to put into place.

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Originally Posted by Vindicta

This community has a fairly poor view towards everyone needing to follow the established meta or kicking you from the dungeon run. To me, if the dungeon is getting cleared and everyone behaves in a mature, polite manner - there's zero grounds for kicking someone. Yes, the run might go a bit slower than you'd like and yes you may get triggered because someone else isn't playing their class "optimally". However, to me since the kick option doesn't even have a relevant option for play style this should not be an allowed reason to kick someone.

I would go as far as to say that GMs should punish players who abuse the kick option. If you don't want to deal with other people and different play styles, run the dungeon with your friends, fc or link-shell. If you're using DF, have a bit of patience and tolerance.

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Asking and expecting players to AOE large pulls is not "the meta." That's just playing your job correctly. It alarms me the amount of people willing to defend bad/lazy play. Simple math is all it takes to see that AOEing a pack of 5+ or even 3+ mobs is the more effective way to spend your resources. Math, and common sense. Tanks do not have infinite cooldowns, nor do healers have infinite MP to 1. Pick up the slack of lazy DPS, and 2. Keep a tank up once they've used all their mitigation skills.

I've already ran all 3 Expert dungeons countless times. My apologies if I don't want to spend 30-45 minutes in a dungeon that can be cleared in 15-20 if people bothered to AOE large packs. And my apologies if expecting such consideration is "elitist." (It's not.) Asking for party members to carry their own weight is not, and never has been, an elitist mindset.

Let's see if anyone can defend their views without using the terms "lazy player" " bad player" or "elitist"....

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Let's see if anyone can defend their views without using the terms "lazy player" " bad player" or "elitist"....

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Challenge accepted. Players should AoE when it is mathematically advantageous. To not do so is illogical. Anyone who is playing an "expert roulette" dungeon has had more then enough time to do the math.

Truth be told if you're in a pug you have a responsibility to adapt to your party's play style. I understand some runs may not be enjoyable that way trust me I've had some very bad experiences with people who thought they could pull the whole dungeon then blamed me when they wiped the party. But, it is expected in pugs. There's no shame in running roulette with your friends.

However that being said you can also adopt a policy I my self have adpoted. Never vote to kick anyone no matter how bad they are (unless their being completely rude of course). I've actually stopped "play style" kicks before simply by being there to say grow the fuck up to my light party. The kick system isn't perfect but you can change things with your attitude and your vote... Christ I sound like a bloody politician...

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I'm not. What I'm saying is that people who resort to kicking immediately people who don't play as well as they would like are often the people who kick those who are doing just fine and not holding the group back, but aren't playing at a high level. It's an absolutely cancerous way of behaving.

Does a person not AoEing on a trash pull make things take a bit longer? Sure. But HOW MUCH longer? How many mobs were there? Regardless of what people think, AoEing on a pack of 3 mobs does not make it take much less time than single targeting them down (and for some classes and comps, it's actually faster to single target at that point than to AoE).

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OP themselves even stated that this was an expert dungeon and the tank had pulled "30 mobs." If you're not aoeing that pack regardless of what job you are, then you are holding the group back likely to the point of wiping the group. Tank and Healer cooldowns are not infinite, your "3 mob" analogy does not apply.

Kicking someone for not knowing their job at level cap is not cancerous. No one is asking for O4S dps in an expert roulette, we're asking for basic effort and fundamental knowledge.

Unless it's changed it takes more than one person to kick. So you potentially want 3 other players to get punished because you have hurt feelings? On top of that s/e would have to investigate each instance. G/L with that.

At this point, the kick function is less about removing players legitimately harassing others in a party and more about someone's baseless, opinionated crap that is the result of said person's epicurean standards not being met. That, or some imagined slight that you apparently did. Its these kinds of dumpster fire sensibilities that are half the reason I really really do not like doing roulettes with randoms. One moment people are whining about the green DPS being a healer, the next its about the blue DPS not being a tank. Being new and not knowing how to do a mechanic after asking "what do I do?", or being blamed for someone stacking on you when 98% of the field was not occupied by you when you had no reason to move and thus were standing there attacking the target to begin with.

tl;dr, the kick function is little more than a catharsis.