Last straw

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Originally Posted by Raikki

I don't understand. Since 1.18 people have been coming on here and complaining about how they can't get into pickup groups with their desired class. Why do you even want to join a pickup group? They're terrible. Make friends and join/make a linkshell to do this stuff with instead.

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Most linkshells do the same thing pickups do. Don't have the class they want level and want to go as something else? That's pretty much a denied application right there.

I tell you, I'm L50 on Marauder and Archer, and guess what? I'm doing more damage as a Marauder.
Why? Nope, it's not because of the gear, neither of the actions placement in my bar. It's because I don't know how to play Archer, so I'm better with Marauder.
I'm not joking if I say I outstand Archers sometimes, so it really depends on how well you play a class.
People requiring only Archers in their parties, or only Thaumaturges in Ifrit parties are just Easy Mode lazy f*cks who want things just to accomodate their needs. I'm not gonna expertise me in Archer that much, since my second class is Pugilist, so party recruiters have to deal with it =)

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Originally Posted by Raikki

I don't understand. Since 1.18 people have been coming on here and complaining about how they can't get into pickup groups with their desired class. Why do you even want to join a pickup group? They're terrible. Make friends and join/make a linkshell to do this stuff with instead.

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I never really joined a pickup group, but there plenty of valid reasons to join one. Here are a few:

"I want to do content at this one time when none or my friends or LS mates are online."

"I want to try doing X but everyone is busy doing Y and I don't want to bother"

"I don't really want to commit to an endgame LS / can't find one that suits me but still want to do this one content"

"I'm sorta bored but there's this group shouting for X, maybe I should join for a while"


It may be quite a shock for some people, but not everyone is in the top linkshells of their servers, has full friend list just waiting a /tell for Dzemael Darkhold or even want to do endgame at scheduled hours. Pick up groups will always exist and every once in a while they do win fights lol

There is probably a missing variable OP hasn't mentioned. My friends would let me go on any class I wanted to try, even if it meant we would wipe.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

In any other MMO, I'd agree.
But the fact that you can change classes on the fly makes it a pretty weak complaint to me. You're not bound to one class like with other MMO's.

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And I had to pick a side, but this sums it up. It's no surprise either, the devs pretty much shout it in your face w/ this 1-50 in 1 zone, in less then 1 month. Every single class betters from having every other class up. And I'm most certain, if OP had his Archer to 50, he would probably enjoy playing it.

I'm no mind reader though...

It seems every patch its another class that is superior to all else and it leaves almost
all other classes out of the game and peeps that dont have that class leveled
pretty much either cant or have a hard time getting into a pt..

Darkhold = ARC
Ifrit = LNC
Moogle = ARC and THM

Well i totally dont see why this should be happening but it really does, dont think u should quit over it though lol. just see if u can level everything for the future
awesome content and have ur mind at ease about finding pts later in the game.

heres a neat idea. how about this IF there are more than one of any class other than tank cl;asses in the party the stacked classes suffer a 50% loss of hp acc dmg and suffer an unremoveable 55 a tick dot effect balanced party issues solved
ps and a 50% loss to mp for casters lol have fun with this idea.
pss no i dont care if the trolls think it sucks. my idea pones them

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Originally Posted by smokymcweed

heres a neat idea. how about this IF there are more than one of any class other than tank cl;asses in the party the stacked classes suffer a 50% loss of hp acc dmg and suffer an unremoveable 55 a tick dot effect balanced party issues solved

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lmao... this is why I love these forums :D

You guys just don't get it do you?

It's a path of least resistance the community will enforce usually on players they do not know, because ARC is the class you are least likely to perform horribly on to them. Plain and simple. It has been made the status quo. There are more than enough examples of groups beating Moogle with no more than a single ARC in party.

As for people who have a bunch of classes at 50, yet they chose to play one - you better be much better at what you do on that class you chose to play than the one that people want you to or else you're just messing it up for yourself. Moogle is NOT like what Batraal or Ifrit were. One class is not vastly superior.
During 1.18, ARC had a much higher DPS ceiling than the other DD. Plain and simple no matter how well you played, a decent ARC would do more DPS. That was wrong.
With Ifrit, LNC did the highest DPS, perhaps tied with MRD for single target at best, and it could completely avoid Sear. Obvious encouragement for class-stacking here.
Since 1.20, however, all the DPS classes are quite balanced. No, ARC does not do the greatest DPS either single target or AoE. It is however the most flexible and safe option. This is a great reason for it being preferred for groups of people who have little experience in the fight. You can shoot arrows at a safe distance and perform combos without positional requirements. It's much more n00b-proof. So when someone doesn't know you can perform, they'll tell you to go ARC.

BUT, since there is no reason why a competent player on another class shouldn't put out at least as much damage as an average ARC, if you chose to go in on PGL, MRD, or LNC then you best be doing just that - or else don't even argue and deal with it. First and foremost what is expected of each party member is to be doing anything they can to maximize their utility to best that encounter.

In conclusion, the classes are quite well balanced right now. People can perform more or less the same on any DD class in Moogle by design. The community, by practice, is enforcing ARC as a failsafe for people they don't know. This is not something the devs can fix, because class-stacking is not something the devs can fully prevent. They can simply do their best to not encourage it - which they have. There are lots of utility to other classes that most of the community is turning a blind eye to. Make some friends, play with the same people as much as you can, and prove your capabilities on your favorite class - yet if it doesn't work out and you are not able to make your favorite class work, then have the decency to switch to a class you can help the party with.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

You guys just don't get it do you?

It's a path of least resistance the community will enforce usually on players they do not know, because ARC is the class you are least likely to perform horribly on to them. Plain and simple. It has been made the status quo. There are more than enough examples of groups beating Moogle with no more than a single ARC in party.

As for people who have a bunch of classes at 50, yet they chose to play one - you better be much better at what you do on that class you chose to play than the one that people want you to or else you're just messing it up for yourself. Moogle is NOT like what Batraal or Ifrit were. One class is not vastly superior.
During 1.18, ARC had a much higher DPS ceiling than the other DD. Plain and simple no matter how well you played, a decent ARC would do more DPS. That was wrong.
With Ifrit, LNC did the highest DPS, perhaps tied with MRD for single target at best, and it could completely avoid Sear. Obvious encouragement for class-stacking here.
Since 1.20, however, all the DPS classes are quite balanced. No, ARC does not do the greatest DPS either single target or AoE. It is however the most flexible and safe option. This is a great reason for it being preferred for groups of people who have little experience in the fight. You can shoot arrows at a safe distance and perform combos without positional requirements. It's much more n00b-proof. So when someone doesn't know you can perform, they'll tell you to go ARC.

BUT, since there is no reason why a competent player on another class shouldn't put out at least as much damage as an average ARC, if you chose to go in on PGL, MRD, or LNC then you best be doing just that - or else don't even argue and deal with it. First and foremost what is expected of each party member is to be doing anything they can to maximize their utility to best that encounter.

In conclusion, the classes are quite well balanced right now. People can perform more or less the same on any DD class in Moogle by design. The community, by practice, is enforcing ARC as a failsafe for people they don't know. This is not something the devs can fix, because class-stacking is not something the devs can fully prevent. They can simply do their best to not encourage it - which they have. There are lots of utility to other classes that most of the community is turning a blind eye to. Make some friends, play with the same people as much as you can, prove your capabilities on your favorite class - yet if it doesn't work out and you are not able to make your favorite class work, then have the decency to switch to a class you can help the party with.

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All melee can tank on moogle

Make your own parties.

Right now my only problem is no one joins my shouts :mad:

this is my prob too, and not cause the job specifics but it's near impossible to get a group unless your part of a linkshell that is running them all the time and that your someone willing to sit in vent all day long for the runs. first day of patch was pretty awesome, did all the nm's but by that time we done it was too late for most and they ran off before ever entering moogle. ....i still not even enter the dang thing to this day. people got there groups and linkshells and anyone else is manned out. it's pretty impossible to make a group.

i was going to come and go patch by patch...like come for .21 for the dungeons but i changed my mind. what's the point if i can't get into the few things going on i haven't done yet right? and people that not staying the whole year stand no chance really ...they need to merge servers or they probably won't see me till 2.0

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Originally Posted by weeble

this is my prob too, and not cause the job specifics but it's near impossible to get a group unless your part of a linkshell that is running them all the time and that your someone willing to sit in vent all day long for the runs. first day of patch was pretty awesome, did all the nm's but by that time we done it was too late for most and they ran off before ever entering moogle. ....i still not even enter the dang thing to this day. people got there groups and linkshells and anyone else is manned out. it's pretty impossible to make a group.

i was going to come and go patch by patch...like come for .21 for the dungeons but i changed my mind. what's the point if i can't get into the few things going on i haven't done yet right? and people that not staying the whole year stand no chance really ...they need to merge servers or they probably won't see me till 2.0

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Good thing they already confirmed server merges, then.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

In conclusion, the classes are quite well balanced right now. People can perform more or less the same on any DD class in Moogle by design. The community, by practice, is enforcing ARC as a failsafe for people they don't know. This is not something the devs can fix, because class-stacking is not something the devs can fully prevent. They can simply do their best to not encourage it - which they have. There are lots of utility to other classes that most of the community is turning a blind eye to. Make some friends, play with the same people as much as you can, and prove your capabilities on your favorite class - yet if it doesn't work out and you are not able to make your favorite class work, then have the decency to switch to a class you can help the party with.

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You're right about they can't stop class stacking, but they can discourage it. Something they haven't done yet.

One of the biggest advantages ARC has in the moogle fight is their combos are a joke to pull off. Unless the mob is aggroing you as an ARC, you don't have much of an excuse not to be 8+ yalms away from the target. However, the same can't be said about melee. Comboing the moogles as a melee is somewhat annoying due to their size, them running away and calling for help after they take so much damage, and possibly latency registering the hit in an unintended direction. I've noticed if I run through a mob and use Impulse dive without pausing for a moment, the client registers it as a frontal attack even though I was behind the mob on my screen.

One of the best remedies for this would be removing the crap requirements for combos and having them only fail if you miss or get resisted. Even then I fear people will only use archers, claiming MRD/BLM AoEs do too much damage or some bullsh*t excuse like that.

Stupid excuse? Very. But...
http://i44.tinypic.com/snh078.jpg

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Originally Posted by weeble

this is my prob too, and not cause the job specifics but it's near impossible to get a group unless your part of a linkshell that is running them all the time and that your someone willing to sit in vent all day long for the runs. first day of patch was pretty awesome, did all the nm's but by that time we done it was too late for most and they ran off before ever entering moogle. ....i still not even enter the dang thing to this day. people got there groups and linkshells and anyone else is manned out. it's pretty impossible to make a group.

i was going to come and go patch by patch...like come for .21 for the dungeons but i changed my mind. what's the point if i can't get into the few things going on i haven't done yet right? and people that not staying the whole year stand no chance really ...they need to merge servers or they probably won't see me till 2.0

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you're in luck http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...787#post492787. Would assume our server is going to be near the top of the list to dissolve after p2p goes live.

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Originally Posted by viion

Its not just him when the reason you aint winning is because you aint Arc! XD

But it is sad it comes to this, the developers just dont know how to make a well balanced battle lol.

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my LS beat moogle with no raise mechanic and only 1 archer, just sayin

biggest prob is the time limit, usually we get to king with 10-12 min on clock, but gotta play it safe with not all archer setup.

i would suggest to devs to nix the limit or extend so people dont feel forced into speed runs

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

you're in luck http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...787#post492787. Would assume our server is going to be near the top of the list to dissolve after p2p goes live.

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this is awesome news, guess i'll be around for .21 after all. :)

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Originally Posted by Gramul

In any other MMO, I'd agree.
But the fact that you can change classes on the fly makes it a pretty weak complaint to me. You're not bound to one class like with other MMO's.

Need to be an archer in this situation? Be an archer.
Situation calls for a tank? Be a Gladiator.
Need to heal your party? Go for Conjurer.

The only thing stopping you is yourself.

By the by, I hope this doesn't sour my position in Counter Post. I really am a good boy. Honest I am.

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Lol we are just sharing our opinions, I wouldn't kick someone out for an honest discussion. I just don't see what you see is all. I can understand that in some cases we should change to be a healer, DD, or tank. Not to be a particular in DD because people want you too. My friend Reni Chan, never changed her class from archer pre patch for Ifrit. We won plenty of times and we weren't going to force her to become a LNC and neither have I, granted I was CNJ.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

You're right about they can't stop class stacking, but they can discourage it. Something they haven't done yet.

One of the biggest advantages ARC has in the moogle fight is their combos are a joke to pull off. Unless the mob is aggroing you as an ARC, you don't have much of an excuse not to be 8+ yalms away from the target. However, the same can't be said about melee. Comboing the moogles as a melee is somewhat annoying due to their size, them running away and calling for help after they take so much damage, and possibly latency registering the hit in an unintended direction. I've noticed if I run through a mob and use Impulse dive without pausing for a moment, the client registers it as a frontal attack even though I was behind the mob on my screen.

One of the best remedies for this would be removing the crap requirements for combos and having them only fail if you miss or get resisted. Even then I fear people will only use archers, claiming MRD/BLM AoEs do too much damage or some bullsh*t excuse like that.

Stupid excuse? Very. But...
http://i44.tinypic.com/snh078.jpg

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I stated that they have discouraged stacking. Each class is unique with crowd control options being split among them, DPS is balanced - ARC does not have the highest ceiling - and melee player's CAN do equal or higher damage in Moogle.

You said it yourself in the end - players will find some excuse to follow the status quo.

You know, if the first fight of Moggle Mog no one went in with Archers but was with a MRD and PGL setup that won, people would probably be complaining about having to level Marauders and pugilist..

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Originally Posted by Elexia

You know, if the first fight of Moggle Mog no one went in with Archers but was with a MRD and PGL setup that won, people would probably be complaining about having to level Marauders and pugilist..

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Exactly.
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/im...4mBxG3DVlExUBj

We have beaten Moogle multiple times pre and post 1.20a, we had lancers, pugs, and mrds in almost every group. 2 arc is good for rotating binds on the gld but as long as the players know their job well enough (hint: read and understand their abilities and combos) and dont stand in the fire any job can be a great dps. ie. some pug combos spike 1k+ dmg

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Originally Posted by CTSwiftheal

We have beaten Moogle multiple times pre and post 1.20a, we had lancers, pugs, and mrds in almost every group. 2 arc is good for rotating binds on the gld but as long as the players know their job well enough (hint: read and understand their abilities and combos) and dont stand in the fire any job can be a great dps. ie. some pug combos spike 1k+ dmg

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PGL is the greatest single target damage dealer at the moment from what I can tell. Call it stigma from previous patches, or down right ignorance, but people just don't want to escape their comfort zones.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

PGL is the greatest single target damage dealer at the moment from what I can tell. Call it stigma from previous patches, or down right ignorance, but people just don't want to escape their comfort zones.

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also one of the hardest classes to play as you need to be a good DD and know elemental weakness of mobs. my pug is 42, ive been doing GC leves. Using flame fist i do x2 damage on bombs and can kill them much faster then my other classes.will be a nice class in the future when hey add more elemental stances and better mp recovery.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

also one of the hardest classes to play as you need to be a good DD and know elemental weakness of mobs. my pug is 42, ive been doing GC leves. Using flame fist i do x2 damage on bombs and can kill them much faster then my other classes.will be a nice class in the future when hey add more elemental stances and better mp recovery.

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Yea, I won't say they are easy to play. There's a lot to manage if you want to maximize your DPS - but the rewards are very much so there. I've been practicing PGL extensively while doing GC leves amassing seals for promotions/items. All that practice has allowed me to figure out a number of tricks to pull off combos with near 100% success. Only times I fail are due to some form of lag.

Paying attention to elemental weaknesses though, it pays off. If there is any mob that is weak to fire, set a PGL off on it in Fire Fists and its AA will strike like a string of weaponskills, and its weaponskills hit like massive single target nukes.

In many ways, PGL sort of feels like the antithesis of ARC.

I try to run my linkshell fair, i don't force anyone to level anything that they don't want to, the people that don't level their classes for the basic abilities that help (Sentinel and Raise) just have to wait until the strat is hammered out. In our large member base only about 14 of us have all 7 classes to 50, and its those people that are there every day willing to fill any role in the party. the people that only have 1 or 2 classes to 50 are only online 1 or 2 days of the week and i try to work around them to form a winning party so everyone is happy. (Can not make everyone happy, it is impossible)

I can sympathize for TC. I can never seem to get a group for these battles, and when I do it's far from a winning one.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

So basically you're saying you either play the flavor of the month or get left behind? Yeah, that's sure going to keep the playerbase happy.

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That will change with the addition of content.

It's only "flavor of the month" because we only get one battle every update. When the game is "complete" we'll have many different battles that will favor different classes. And it's not like Ifrit is gone or anything.

You're not going to be left "behind". You're just not useful for this battle.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

However, most of the time in other MMOs, outside of very specific fights and setups, you won't be rejected by 90% of the community because you aren't class X.

Sure, in FFXIV we can change classes, but what you're saying is simply: "Leveled X to cap only to discover no one does endgame on X? Too bad, level up Y or gtfo, we don't want lazy players" which is stupid. All classes should be equally viable on most endgame fights, then people with multiple classes should have an extra advantage due to that fact, instead of the current fights that does "enforce" cookie cutter stacking setups that the community will obviously jump on once discovered.

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But the main feature of the game presented is the fact that you're supposed to change classes to fit whatever situation you're in. No, I don't think all classes should be viable for most endgame fights. I think we should have a wide range of enemies that require different strategies and setups to defeat. Something that takes advantage of the class flexibility we have. If you don't want to level another class to participate in a fight well suited for that class, suit yourself, you don't have to fight it.

I'd rather not sacrifice variety for equality in this case. Especially sense we only have 2 of these fights so far.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

You're not going to be left "behind". You're just not useful for this battle.

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Careful. Last thing people need is to hear more lies. Every class is useful for the fight. ARC is the the easiest.

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Originally Posted by IStolzI

I can sympathize for TC. I can never seem to get a group for these battles, and when I do it's far from a winning one.

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So you blame the game? Seems like the popular thing to do now.

I think SE needs to seriously look at what other MMORPGs are doing and adopt some of their balance habits. Something several MMOs have done that has worked wonderfully for class balance is give classes exclusive raid buffs. This way, an archer can do less dps, but if it can give your entire party an accuracy or attack power aura, then it would be worth taking one anyways. Or if Marauder gave a str/vit buff to everyone, and GLA gave the entire party like 5% damage reduction, etc. As of now, the only thing they have even close to this outside of CJR protect is a couple WS effects which seem completely underwhelming, and aren't personal buffs.

This would enable them to make certain classes damage output slightly lower than others while giving them the utility of buffing the others with no sacrifice to the group's total dps. If there is no utility outside of ranged/melee, and everyone is balanced to do similar dps, parses will always pick out one that is like .5 avg dps higher and people will ask for only those people because this is what FFXI trained people to do. Classes need more utility. A lot more. If they don't do it with jobs, then this game will suffer the same fate FFXI did. BLM/RNG only.

I agree with NoctisUmbra i have gotten my wins on pgl my ls makes it work and we do well. Even with x4 arc it does not = win. Another problem i think most people have in this game they always have the filter on that shows when a mob readies an attack and the can't dodge then blame it on lag~

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Originally Posted by Gramul

That will change with the addition of content.

It's only "flavor of the month" because we only get one battle every update. When the game is "complete" we'll have many different battles that will favor different classes. And it's not like Ifrit is gone or anything.

You're not going to be left "behind". You're just not useful for this battle.



But the main feature of the game presented is the fact that you're supposed to change classes to fit whatever situation you're in. No, I don't think all classes should be viable for most endgame fights. I think we should have a wide range of enemies that require different strategies and setups to defeat. Something that takes advantage of the class flexibility we have. If you don't want to level another class to participate in a fight well suited for that class, suit yourself, you don't have to fight it.

I'd rather not sacrifice variety for equality in this case. Especially sense we only have 2 of these fights so far.

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So, what you're saying is that if one wants to experience endgame on it's entirety, he should level all battle classes to cap or risk sitting out (unless he gets into an "alternative" group that "goes against the norm") every few patches, and the developers should keep making content that favors specific classes because that's a "feature" of the game? They shouldn't even bother if the community is just stacking classes against everything they made, and in fact should encourage this behaviour?

Now there's something I completely disagree with.

Not to mention that at this point we don't even have enough content. Or are you just going to tell pugilists, for example, to "wait" until god knows when a PUG-stacking fight is developed or go level something else?

Heck, when that comes I'm pretty sure someone out there will say pugs "need" the moogle weapon to join but pugs "can't" get into a group to kill it because their archer or conjurer isn't high enough


Sure, some fights here and there that require very specific setups are not bad, but until now ALL battles encourage class stacking.

Of course, it's very damn hard to balance everything for everyone and there will always be that one group of classes that perform better than others (and players that leveled all to 50 can use these classes and have an easier time beating said content), but the developers should ALWAYS try to avoid situations like Ogre, Ifrit and Moogle where stacking a single class is far more effective than any other strategy.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Suggestion:

Try making a party?

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A solid Idea! He could begin using the AWSOME new search feature. All has to do is search for 30 seconds to find that absolutly no one uses this feature at all, then he can begin the 3 hour adventure that is standing in Ul'dah shouting for random people that may or may not actually have the time needed to go do the moogle fight. Then, when he has 7 of 8, about 2 hours into shouting, some of those people that have been waiting can go "SOrry, but I have to leave" and he can be 4/8. At this point he will spend another 2 hours shouting for another 4 people that may or may not have the jobs he wants to complete this fight. So yeah, just make a party! Its not a total pain in the ass at all!

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Originally Posted by Firon

I agree with NoctisUmbra i have gotten my wins on pgl my ls makes it work and we do well. Even with x4 arc it does not = win. Another problem i think most people have in this game they always have the filter on that shows when a mob readies an attack and the can't dodge then blame it on lag~

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The fight is very doable without archers, no one denies that. But I also doubt anyone will deny that stacking archers makes it far easier, and therefore hurts those that don't have "access" to groups that will do it the "harder" way

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

The fight is very doable without archers, no one denies that. But I also doubt anyone will deny that stacking archers makes it far easier, and therefore hurts those that don't have "access" to groups that will do it the "harder" way

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thank god someone else said it lol

this is the ENTIRE point, if you see page 1 i made a long post describing this, what i said was that if the SE designed fights differently (in this case no high dmg circle AOE) people would be willing to take other jobs BUT the mob would still be getting hit the same as if there were 5-6 archers as it is designed right now.

noctis your argument about jobs are ballanced- being able to absorb damage isnt ballanced with being able to dodge all damage, the mages still have to cure you even if you arent one shotted.. if SE wants to keep circle AOE thats fine but have some attacks that also hit ranged characters.

the reason people stack archers is entirely down to development decisions.

SE will fix this the best thing we can do is just wait and pray that they do been few other posted i seen about this.

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Originally Posted by ssppiikkeeyy

SE will fix this the best thing we can do is just wait and pray that they do been few other posted i seen about this.

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They could always lock fights out to 2 classes per instance but that would suck i guess.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

The fight is very doable without archers, no one denies that. But I also doubt anyone will deny that stacking archers makes it far easier, and therefore hurts those that don't have "access" to groups that will do it the "harder" way

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Its not so much that it makes the fight easier, but rather ARC is the easiest DD to play in the instance.

Easiest =/= /most beneficial.
Easiest = safest.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Its not so much that it makes the fight easier, but rather ARC is the easiest DD to play in the instance.

Easiest =/= /most beneficial.
Easiest = safest.

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your talking in circles, it amounts to the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Rogue

your talking in circles, it amounts to the same thing.

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What I'm saying is a good player behind a PGL/MRD is very likely going to be doing more damage and or being useful through stuns - which in turn would be beneficial for the fight. What I'm saying is there exist good reasons to pick DDs other than ARC.

What I'm also saying is that those other DDs aren't as easy to pick up and play after 1.20 as ARC is.

Then I am concluding that the reason ARC is being stacked so much is not due to it being OP or classes being unbalanced. It is rather due to ARC being easy to pick up. N00b-friendly.

Essentially, nothing wrong with the game design or the Moogle design atm. Master another DD and you would get better results than straight up going ARC.

Does that clarify things for you?

The moogle primal was probably designed with jobs in mind, so we are playing it without some key abilities. I can note at least one ability on each job list that will make that class perform much better.