How does SE justify these ten min enrages, but doesnt let anyone know their dps

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I'm indifferent on the subject at this point. Too many hard heads on both sides and neither willing to give in. It's not worth arguing really, we already have our answer and that's that.

That said, I am partial to having a parser available. I like having as much information quantitatively available to me as possible; I hate qualitative data.

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i totally support your comment. this is the same way I think also. but some players, some comments.. ... ...

"If you have to rely on a third party tool to clear content, you're probably not ready to tackle said content." - Thunda_Cat_Smash


/facepalm

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Snip.

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No static, on PS4, PUG all content because I hate dealing with strict raid schedules. People that parse have not told me anything that I don't already know. If you want to get better, look at your in-game tools. If you don't want to get better, than you need to rely on third party tools to get you to the clear.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If you have to rely on a third party tool to clear content, you're probably not ready to tackle said content.

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It's actually just the opposite, though.

If you're not serious enough to be using a 3rd party program to see who in your raid group is slacking, you're not ready to tackle said content.

I'm pretty sure that all the hardcore "world first" FCs are using it, and I can't imagine anyone trying SSavage won't be using it.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I'm pretty sure that all the hardcore "world first" FCs are using it, and I can't imagine anyone trying SSavage won't be using it.

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Oh, I never said that using parsers is a bad thing! It's a bonus that can help with the intricacies of a fight. Worldfirsters know their jobs inside and out, and only use parsers to fine tune details. Relying on it and using it as a bonus are completely different things.

Relying on a parser: "I need to use this or I can't clear content!"

Not relying on a parser, but using one: "So, I messed up slightly here and here, what shall I do instead?"

The first states you can't improve without it, the second acknowledges player mess ups and how they can be improved.

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Originally Posted by Maku

This game feeds you your rotation. The little boxes sparkle when they are comboable.
If someone can't look at a potency and know that 2 is larger than 1 then they have a more major issue than bad math. These forums have several threads about optimal DPS rotations. They can't use parsers officially because that gives an official way to segregate players.

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Potencies can be entirely misleading. Take, for instance, Samurai. Just looking at the potency numbers, many players will assume Midare is your strongest ability when Shinten far exceeds 720 potency if you properly set up. Likewise, a person isn't going to know how to maximize their DPS only reading numbers since you need to know when to weave your oGCDs for your opener.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The game is already a math exercise for min/maxing. Please do not ask for it to become more of a number crunch. If people in your group are not pulling their weight, talk to them. If you complaining about a PUG, then make a party, and try again. If it was purely a number puzzle, it would diminish the game and the role of DPS into little more than grade school arithmetic.

Going by this and the OP, all I can say is that in this case you're both making it very clear that parsers would turn the game into the MMORPG equivalent of painting by numbers. There's no skill or judgement involved in painting by numbers, just following the numbers. People decry the skill of players already. How will parsers help increase skill when they encourage slavishly following specific rotations and timings - effectively painting by numbers? That reduces the skill needed to that of memorizing a routine and never deviating.

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This game is already paint by numbers more or less. You follow a set rotation someone posts online and scarcely deviant. You may have slight difference, like the 1-Sen opener versus 3-Sen, however it's negligible. Parses allow people who may not even realizing they're doing considerably less damage to see tangible numbers. A lot of people don't understand how openers work or assume they're doing more damage than they actually are. The idea there would be wide spread ridicule only applies if the devs stop policing harassment. If you have a parse now and call someone out in-game, you can be reported. That wouldn't change with an officially sanctioned system. Besides, more often than not, if you step into EX or Savage content, someone has ACT running anyway. They may as well embrace it.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Oh, I never said that using parsers is a bad thing! It's a bonus that can help with the intricacies of a fight. Worldfirsters know their jobs inside and out, and only use parsers to fine tune details. Relying on it and using it as a bonus are completely different things.

Relying on a parser: "I need to use this or I can't clear content!"

Not relying on a parser, but using one: "So, I messed up slightly here and here, what shall I do instead?"

The first states you can't improve without it, the second acknowledges player mess ups and how they can be improved.

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Definitely in that case.

I think we're mostly talking about people who don't know the exact right rotation or raid leaders who have no way of knowing who among their raid group isn't being all that they can be.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

To be fair they designed end game content in PSO2 with no strict dps or skill requirements so the implementation of a DPS parser in PSO2 was completely unnecessary and literally only exists to raise epeens. In 14 if you don't do enough damage you aren't clearing the content, cut and dry. So you need to know how to improve, or who is holding you back.

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Deus Esca "Moon Phase"? Mother EQ has a one shot move too if you fail at those balls(or smt, havent done it in a while). People still fail to reach/kill Deus/Angel/Hunar/Dio in EP 1~4 LQ before time runs out. Solo Profound Darkness? Buster Quest time limit. You have time limit in some quest you know?

Back then when Thordan EX came out parsing helped me to increase my DPS by a lot. Without the ability to try things and see how it reflects on my damage we would not have been able to clear him that soon.

How should I do this without parser? Comparing % at enrage and hope no one did different damage than last try?

For people thinking parsers would lead to toxic behavior, you forget that most "bad" players have no idea that they are actually performing badly. Parsers can be real eyes openers too for a lot of players.

I'm all for parsers. It'll be a good way to know if you're doing good damage or not. They could even do worded rankings like "Excellent" to "Very Poor" instead of actual numbers.

And honestly I couldn't care less if people get called out for having bad DPS, just as long you're a DPS of course. It's your job to do damage and you should at least be good at it. You don't need to have hardcore raider DPS at all but if your damage is less than the tank or even worse the healer, then there's something wrong with what you're doing and you should improve yourself.

Honestly, at this point they need to just do the insane thing.

Designate ingame Parser availability by Data Center.
Set party wide parser as a lootmaster sort of option.
Allow personal parsers, by default turned off in nonparser worlds. Group parser option would be unavailable in Nonparser data center.

Stricter punishments for harassment. First offense, parser is disabled for a week. Second, 24 hour ban. Third, bad things.

It's ridiculous that all these sort of safeguards would be necessary to allow parsers to exist, But honestly it's the only way I could see it happening to make the parser. And antiparser crowds happy.

I installed a parser for my raid group and I almost regret it.

I never knew people were so bad in randoms. Starting to gauge how good a group is by if my sub-parly geared DPS classes are top DPS or not.

I'm usually double the person in the number 2 spot....sometimes that person in the number 2 spot is a warrior. :(

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

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What you're talking about has nothing to do with parsers, set rotations or routines of using abilities already exists, you don't need to know your dps to follow a cookie cutter guide on what ability is used when. Endgame in MMO's has always been about numbers and always will be, there are always going to be players that want to constantly improve and in order to do that a source of information is needed in order to judge your own performance. Chances are if your deviating from the optimal rotation for your job you are a hindrance to the other 3/7 people you are grouping with. MMO's will always have cookie cutter builds and rotations when it comes to end-game pve, it's the nature of the beast and has nothing to do with whether you run a parser or don't.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Honestly, at this point they need to just do the insane thing.

Designate ingame Parser availability by Data Center.
Set party wide parser as a lootmaster sort of option.
Allow personal parsers, by default turned off in nonparser worlds. Group parser option would be unavailable in Nonparser data center.

Stricter punishments for harassment. First offense, parser is disabled for a week. Second, 24 hour ban. Third, bad things.

It's ridiculous that all these sort of safeguards would be necessary to allow parsers to exist, But honestly it's the only way I could see it happening to make the parser. And antiparser crowds happy.

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Just give us personal parsers.

If people are sensitive about their DPS, they can lie, which is exactly what they can do right now anyway.

They really should just make beating the target dummies for the respective Savage raid mandatory for entry.

not complaining or anything but then it's a paragraph of complaint, while replying to him/herself every 3 seconds, complaining even more. You've done better trollin in the past, OP.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

They design a lot of savage content to require healer DPS to beat enrage despite their official stance. Most groups will not be able to clear O3S or O4S if both healers did absolutely zero DPS. Even healers need parsers for healing in addition to DPS.

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What is a parse going too do for a healers dps and healing? If their doing their rotation right and healing correctly, yet still not doing enough damage then its more then likely gear a issue. We don't have complex rotations like dps do and healing spells dont sudddenly heal for more cause you change when you use them. I am also very well aware that healers must dps in savage I don't run savage but even I dps as much as I can. A healers dps is depedent on these things 1. Their skil as a healer 2. The group avoiding damage where they can 3. Gear

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

not complaining or anything but then it's a paragraph of complaint, while replying to him/herself every 3 seconds, complaining even more. You've done better trollin in the past, OP.

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I just think its very dum that cant see some type of number figure, I feel the same way even after clearing the fight today. It just makes zero sense how blind we are in a all about dps game. I was actually suggesting things why is it ok to show damage in pvp but yet in pve its not ok? Thats essentially what Im asking for and an enrage timer, I know SE would never let us use something like act.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

What is a parse going too do for a healers dps and healing? If their doing their rotation right and healing correctly, yet still not doing enough damage then its more then likely gear a issue. We don't have complex rotations like dps do and healing spells dont sudddenly heal for more cause you change when you use them. I am also very well aware that healers must dps in savage I don't run savage but even I dps as much as I can. A healers dps is depedent on these things 1. Their skil as a healer 2. The group avoiding damage where they can 3. Gear

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Parsing lets you know if certain healing buffs and abilities were used at the optimal time. Mitigation buffs and debuffs by party members with Reprisal/Addle/etc. matter. In Savage raid content, failure to heal or mitigate damage properly in a timely manner can lead to a wipe. Not understanding why you wipe can lead to more wipes if that issue is left uncorrected. Fflogs gives data on when healers use certain skills and abilities in a timeline. That can be really useful for optimizing.

When you optimize healing, you are also in effect optimizing damage-dealing as a healer. Those GCDs and time you spend not healing will be required to deal damage in Savage raids. The content in O3S and O4S for raid require party members to be playing optimally or face constant wipes and frustration.

I dont understand why people are against an in game parse.

Common reason I see is to prevent toxicity. News flash it already exists so it why would making an official parse increase that when likely everyone already using one would be the same people to use the official one
Another common reason I see is to prevent harassment. News flash its the internet, use the saving grace called reporting and move on with a blacklist. Reporting people for using parses as harassment wouldn't change, neither would it being a reportable offense change.

Literally nothing would change beyond giving PS4 players access to a tool that arguably many want.

Why is everyone so afraid of information. You're going to find negative people everywhere in life and an MMO is no different. If you think anywhere on the internet is a safe haven, please share your ignorance with me. There are really no tools/incentives for self improvement in playing besides a bad one called hall of the novice which doesn't help people play their jobs better. Something where even a curious player could view and compare, or ignore and continue playing how they want would be a great addition and might even help people feel incentivized to try and play better.

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Originally Posted by Lildragora

I dont understand why people are against an in game parse.

Common reason I see is to prevent toxicity. News flash it already exists so it why would making an official parse increase that when likely everyone already using one would be the same people to use the official one

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That's just it. Toxic behavior (not just on parsers but at many aspects of FFXIV) already exists. If an in-game parser is implemented, that would make it seem like SE fosters this sort of behavior. And they don't want that. You can say NEWSFLASH all you want, but they don't want to intensify the toxicity that is already here nor do they want that.

I'm also pretty sure that it isn't so much being "afraid of information" but how that information is used. And it has already been said that the information is abused. That's the problem. That abuse is part of the toxicity. I honestly don't feel like people will be responsible enough if an in-game parser is implemented. There are already tools out there (sans PS4 players). Use them.

Despite all of this, I am not against the usage of parsers. But I also don't think that we should hold a gun to SE Devs and ask them to put an in-game parser. It's unnecessary. The tools are already there for us to use. (Again, sans PS4 players.)

I guess I kind of am annoyed that you have players using parsers on PC, having voice callouts from programs for fights, and post pictures / link stuff with their parsers clearly displayed on OFs and SE turns a blind eye to it. Yet they find it highly unreasonable to accommodate console players with even a basic parser while they look the other way with what the PC community is doing. Everyone should have access or no one should. Half-measures are just fully hypocritical.

Parsers are just bad for games.

The implementation of parsers would turn even more players into mindless sheep. They allow people to shame other people in tiers where slight differences in damage don't matter. Players will flock to the top performing jobs rather than risk getting called out for "bad dps."

All you need to do is look at how the meta has trickled down from extreme to regular raids now in this game. Think someone is going to play a dragoon or machinist if there are parsers?

Lets add some common points where people jump on the bandwagon too often. "Monk lacks raid utility=They suck. White mages lack healing potency=They suck." People take that to heart, and suddenly those jobs were beginning to get singled out for content.

Now lets look at parsers. Now I am indifferent about the whole thing, but I stand on the same standpoint as Centershock. While they would be useful among friends and guild mates as a system of checks and balances to see where things went wrong, they would (and will) be easily abused with a group of randoms. Or even a pf party of randoms. How can you prove to me it won't be abused, with the track record this community has had with handing information? I can guarantee you there would be many many parties where the odd one out would get booted before they even had a chance to fix their mistakes. Sure you could report the offenders, but with SE's track record of handling offenses in the game, the problem wouldn't get fixed.

I'm fine with 3rd party parsers when used in a friendly manner. More often then not, those will be a more responsible means of gathering information compared to an in game method.

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

No game gives you all the information you are asking for. Not 1 game that I can think of has an in game DPS meter. They all are outside addons created by the players. Either you download them to keep track of your numbers, or you don't. That's your choice. But don't say you don't have the information available because you do, you simply choose not to use it.

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revelation online has a built in meter.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

All you need to do is look at how the meta has trickled down from extreme to regular raids now in this game. Think someone is going to play a dragoon or machinist if there are parsers?

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Hi I'm a Dragoon since ARR and still in SB. I like having a Parser. I like having logs. It lets me see what others are doing in regards to helping me improve myself when compared to others of my class. It lets me see if someone in my static is doing bad and allows the group to look at where things went wrong and figure out hot to fix it.

Saying you don't want a parser just means your looking for an excuse to be bad. And that's fine, you're not someone I'd want to play with since you don't want to look for ways to help improve yourself.

It's justified because you don't HAVE to be on the bleeding edge of trial clears. If you waited 4 months down the line you could steamroll the content with higher gear.

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

Worst decision ever. Parsers aren't the bad guy. The bad guys are the ones that misuse them to berate others. Parsers help to improve gameplay and give out side people a perspective into your rotations and such so that others can give help and advice.

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So most people who use parsers then? I know that's generalizing, but I've seen too many people berate others, citing parse numbers as a reason.

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Originally Posted by Centershock

That's just it. Toxic behavior (not just on parsers but at many aspects of FFXIV) already exists. If an in-game parser is implemented, that would make it seem like SE fosters this sort of behavior. And they don't want that. You can say NEWSFLASH all you want, but they don't want to intensify the toxicity that is already here nor do they want that.

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I don't see how stating harassment is reportable and allowing a tool in game correlate to fostering toxicity, when they clearly dont based on their own in game rules. Sorry, this is a connection I don't see and I still fail to see how it would intensify it.

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Originally Posted by Maku

This game feeds you your rotation.

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Which rotation is that? The one a dev dreams up on a napkin during lunch, or the rotation the community creates when it inevitably breaks the devs' plan?

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

Everyone should have access or no one should. Half-measures are just fully hypocritical.

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As a PS4 player, I second this. It ticks me off that PC players can so easily see actual numbers in real-time rather than having to rely on someone else uploading a limited amount of parses to FFlogs after the fact while I sit here in the dark about whether or not I'm actually carrying my weight or playing my class well.
It's one of the reasons I healed through Heavensward despite enjoying DPS more.

I don't even want to see other peoples' DPS. I don't care about that. I just want to see my own, and know once and for all whether I'm trash at my job or not :')

And yeah, I know I can get a PC buddy to parse me at a striking dummy or use SSS, but since when did bosses just stand there getting hit, never moving or dealing damage or throwing out an AoE you had to dodge?

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

All you need to do is look at how the meta has trickled down from extreme to regular raids now in this game. Think someone is going to play a dragoon or machinist if there are parsers?

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Have you looked at the hardcore groups lately? A lot of have Dragoons. In fact, Momo Sama changed from Samurai to Dragoon because he liked it better. Meanwhile, Machinist is getting dumped on by everyone. And rightly so. You don't need a parse to tell you Bard is overwhelmingly better. This doom and gloom surrounding parses just doesn't make sense. I'll reiterate, if you step into Savage, someone likely has a parse up, and job balance will always be talked about. So it isn't like one job being inferior to another isn't known already. All a parse does is allow people to see their numbers and hopefully improve.

Rotating through your combo moves is a no-brainer (Yet people still fail at this, as I've seen multiple level 70 PLDs who never use Goring Blade or Royal Authority...), but knowing when to use your OGCDs and cooldowns to maximize their effectiveness isn't.

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Originally Posted by Quoyan

And yeah, I know I can get a PC buddy to parse me at a striking dummy or use SSS, but since when did bosses just stand there getting hit, never moving or dealing damage or throwing out an AoE you had to dodge?

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While it's true that your target dummy DPS is always going to be better then in the actual encounter, being to able to destroy it at least means you have a solid grasp of your class' rotation, especially if you're pulling it off at the minimum item level for the raid.

Requiring this for all people who want to step into savage raids really would make things more enjoyable overall, because it's pretty frustrating to hit your head on an encounter until you can survive all the mechanics, only to realize the group's DPS is a long ways off from beating the enrage timer.

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Originally Posted by Sparhwk

Hi I'm a Dragoon since ARR and still in SB. I like having a Parser. *Snippers*

Saying you don't want a parser just means you're looking for an excuse to be bad. And that's fine, you're not someone I'd want to play with since you don't want to look for ways to help improve yourself.

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You like parsers and talk about how they assist you. That's true. Parsers can show you ways to improve but they have to be used properly.

However, players don't use them properly. Instead, people scream at you if you don't play the "best spec" and the best build the cutting edge raiders are using. I saw this in WoW and I have no reason to believe it will be different here.

You make the accusations that I'm looking for an excuse to be bad and that I'm not looking for ways to improve myself. Both accusations are baloney.

I research, practice, and ask for advice with every job I play. I am against parsers because of the impact they have on the community based on what I saw during my eight years playing WoW.

So, spare me your "excuse to be bad" rhetoric. I could not care less if you want to play with me or not.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

However, players don't use them properly. Instead, people scream at you if you don't play the "best spec" and the best build the cutting edge raiders are using. I saw this in WoW and I have no reason to believe it will be different here.

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Got a source? Any numbers to back your claim up? Anything beyond anecdote?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Got a source? Any numbers to back your claim up? Anything beyond anecdote?

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Really? You're really going to play that card?

Of course I don't have numbers! It's not like I was attempting to write a thesis paper. I was playing WoW.

The fact is I started playing WoW in the final weeks of Vanilla and only went on hiatus this past month. During that time, I witnessed a helpful, fun community devolve into a nasty, competitive community focused on efficiency rather than having fun. I feel that change was brought about by the introduction of parser add-ons.

I do not want that to happen here.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Really? You're really going to play that card?

Of course I don't have numbers! It's not like I was attempting to write a thesis paper. I was playing WoW.

The fact is I started playing WoW in the final weeks of Vanilla and only went on hiatus this past month. During that time, I witnessed a helpful, fun community devolve into a nasty, competitive community focused on efficiency rather than having fun. I feel that change was brought about by the introduction of parser add-ons.

I do not want that to happen here.

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That already exists in this game: FFlogs.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Really? You're really going to play that card?

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Of course I am. You made a claim, you have to back it up.

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Of course I don't have numbers! It's not like I was attempting to write a thesis paper. I was playing WoW.

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If all you have is anecdotal evidence, then honestly you've added nothing to the conversation. It's not about "writing a thesis paper", it's about presenting an argument with some class.

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The fact is I started playing WoW in the final weeks of Vanilla and only went on hiatus this past month. During that time, I witnessed a helpful, fun community devolve into a nasty, competitive community focused on efficiency rather than having fun. I feel that change was brought about by the introduction of parser add-ons

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I'm sorry you feel that way. I have no reason to disbelieve your claim, but I also have no reason to believe the extrapolation that this can be reflected past your experience. Which is why anecdotal evidence is so weak as to be worse than worthless.

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I do not want that to happen here.

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It's an admirable sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

However, players don't use them properly. Instead, people scream at you if you don't play the "best spec" and the best build the cutting edge raiders are using. I saw this in WoW and I have no reason to believe it will be different here.

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The statics I've been in past and present make use of them so that we can all improve as a group to beat savage etc.

Like I remember in A11S and A12S the DPS check was a bit hard for us when we first got to those turns so we started checking our data more often once we got to enrage so everyone in our group would try to beat their previous data to squeeze out more and more DPS and we changed some of our ideas of when to use certain abilities in order to get more DPS from tanks and healers as well. This resulted in us clearing it quite soon after getting that far because we used the data to help us work towards higher goals as a team.

Same thing with O3S (the turn we are currently learning) once we learn all mechanics we will start pushing our DPS goals in order to clear and to clear as efficiently as possible as well.

So...I don't know I really doubt it was just the statics I happen to be in that do that. So you are wrong that players don't use them properly.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Think someone is going to play a dragoon or machinist if there are parsers?

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Coincidentally enough my current static has a DRG in it and we have no issue. We are close to clearing O3S. Sure, we aren't hardcore, but we are getting the work done even with our limited hours per week raid schedule (we only go two days and only for couple of hours each).

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

However, players don't use them properly. Instead, people scream at you if you don't play the "best spec" and the best build the cutting edge raiders are using. I saw this in WoW and I have no reason to believe it will be different here.

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Correction: Bad players just scream at you. Good players don't give a damn, provided you can perform well enough. I'll smack a tank if he whines about healer DPS yet I can clearly see he's not using CDs properly. Likewise, I've kicked a RDM who refused to use Vercure because I'd rather not wipe for your precious FFlogs. It's entirely misleading just how "toxic" the supposed raid community is. You'll often find it's bad players who were called out and got defensive crying on reddit instead of recognizing what they did wrong. Using Xeno, for example, who is notorious for his "bully stream." He'll spend hours with tanks who listen and adjust but has utterly no patience for someone who sits quiet or ignores what he's telling them to do. The server first group on Balmung actually teach new raiders fights.

Are there jerks with high FFlogs? Absolutely. Just like there are jerks who suck at the game. A parse won't change that, but it can potentially help players who don't realize they need improvement, especially PS4 users.