Instant-gratification, and the "Time Sink Here, Time Sink There" song. VERY LONG

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Originally Posted by TheFatHousecat

Is there something wrong with that? I don't really understand the point you're trying to make, here...

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Yeah, I edited my post to clarify.

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Originally Posted by Alise

Yes, the issue here is that the party beat the mob, but get nothing way too often. It should count the goal, everytimes, not just generate random number to give totem. Totem supposed to be 100% if this item is given to help in those step.

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i dont think once was it mentioned that the totem was supposed to be 100% drop, ever.

Anyway, this is basically becoming another thread of ppl want to work towards a goal vs ppl who think they deserve something every time they accomplish something (kinda like when a dog sits you give it a treat).

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Originally Posted by Splice

i dont think once was it mentioned that the totem was supposed to be 100% drop, ever.

Anyway, this is basically becoming another thread of ppl want to work towards a goal vs ppl who think they deserve something every time they accomplish something (kinda like when a dog sits you give it a treat).

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Analogies don't make you right.

Effort should always be rewarded, though it is arguable how much one should be rewarded for the effort done. No amount of sound seeming analogies and shaming (i.e. "they think they deserve something every time") changes the rightness of that.

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Originally Posted by CepheiMordred

Analogies don't make you right.

Effort should always be rewarded, though it is arguable how much one should be rewarded for the effort done. No amount of sound seeming analogies and shaming (i.e. "they think they deserve something every time") changes the rightness of that.

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lol no, effort should not always be rewarded. that thinking is kind of sad.

I haven't had any experience with the totem system yet, but I can say I found the Assault reward system in XI to be a perfect blend of reward and time synch. Completion of each assault gave you a specific amount of points to store. Once enough points were accumulated, you could buy a piece of gear. I know this sounds like how the grand company system is now, but somehow they haven't seemed to balance the mixture (in my mind at least) with the current GC reward system. I am all for random drops with roaming nms, thats what they are for. But SE needs to seriously lose that system for story and dungeon fight drops.

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Originally Posted by Splice

lol no, effort should not always be rewarded. that thinking is kind of sad.

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Okay, perhaps we're thinking of two different things when it comes to effort.

I meant successful effort.

If you think that success should not always be rewarded, you might as well say that enemies should not always reward experience, because you're silly for thinking you should always get something for succeeding.

Rare
adjective, rar·er, rar·est.
coming or occurring far apart in time; unusual; uncommon:
Rare drops should be rare.

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Originally Posted by CepheiMordred

Okay, perhaps we're thinking of two different things when it comes to effort.

I meant successful effort.

If you think that success should not always be rewarded, you might as well say that enemies should not always reward experience, because you're silly for thinking you should always get something for succeeding.

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you get a chance of an totem/weapon from moogle when you defeat it, there is your reward for successful effort.

I do think the drop rate is a little absurd for such poorly designed content (a circle filled with moogles, really?), but it makes me nervous for the future of content, especially for legendary and BiS items that should have a toughness and bit of grindiness to them after 2.0 comes out and some well-thought out, good content starts to get made.


Do people really think they should have a BiS item for beating a NM/dungeon/primal battle once or even 10 times??

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Originally Posted by Splice

you get a chance of an totem/weapon from moogle when you defeat it, there is your reward for successful effort.

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Okay, I guess it sounds reasonable when you put it that wa-

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I do think the drop rate is a little absurd for such poorly designed content (a circle filled with moogles, really?), but it makes me nervous for the future of content, especially for legendary and BiS items that should have a toughness and bit of grindiness to them after 2.0 comes out and some well-thought out, good content starts to get made.

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.........

....what.

And here I was led to believe that everyone viewed grinding as a necessary evil, rather than a good in and of itself. Congratulations Splice, you have shaken everything I thought was certain in the universe to the very core.

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Do people really think they should have a BiS item for beating a NM/dungeon/primal battle once or even 10 times??

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There you go again with that 'shaming' tone, treating people like somehow they're spoiled children for wanting some certainty on their road to accomplishment. Seriously dude, nobody is saying that, and if they were so what? Just because you're more stern and strict doesn't mean you're right.

Seriously, it might be time for SE to deactivate and shut down these forums and just use surveys to gain direction. There is a clear polarity of "too hard" and "too easy" with about 30 people from each side posing inflammatory comments constantly and stupid memes.

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Originally Posted by Splice

i dont think once was it mentioned that the totem was supposed to be 100% drop, ever.

Anyway, this is basically becoming another thread of ppl want to work towards a goal vs ppl who think they deserve something every time they accomplish something (kinda like when a dog sits you give it a treat).

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I don't care if it is 10 totem for 1 weapon/ 20 totem for 1 weapon/ or make it 40 totem for 1 weapon. make it a fair game!

Each win should counts. Not some lucky bastard get it first run, while another person doing 100 runs with better skills and more success and not get anything. Step by step, go equally. As my old quote for example of football. You shoot a goal, and what if referee says he must random generate number to count your goal ? Of course, many people would quit playing football. Same to this game, many people complain and quit. Because of this stupid drop rate. Yet, I still not see dev realize this yet.

I like to call it: Delusional Achievement - (phrase) meaning: obtaining something that leads one to believe they are successful in a certain set of objectives wherein they must obtain numerous of these somethings in order to really achieve the end goal. ie - Requiring a player to obtain 10 Ifrit Totems for just one Ifrit weapon is a Delusional Achievement.

One of the items mean absolutely nothing but a token of achievement, but 10 tokens mean you have actually obtained the achievement. So to make the claim that a Totem is indeed a "reward" is silly, it's merely 1/10th of a reward as it has no real value by itself. Does this make sense? That being said it would require a team of 8 static (the same 8 people) at least 80 times to fight Ifrit for everyone to get just ONE weapon (if you have more classes @50 then be prepared to do it even more times)

Since most people claim to have already fought him 80+ times without getting their class's weapon I see this as a fair trade off, it wouldn't give anyone a direct advantage over anyone, it rules out that pesky "luck" factor (which some perceive as "toughness", which would be incorrect), it keeps the true "toughness" factor (the skill required to fight and kill the target boss), and finally it makes it where Delusional Achievement will "guide" players to an end goal. Consider these weapons like mini-relic weapons so to speak (ref: FFXI), there was a concise goal and you could easily mark your progress.

However, under the current system we have no real way of marking progress, which in turn leads to feeling like no progress is being made at all. This is not good.

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Originally Posted by Yves

Seriously, it might be time for SE to deactivate and shut down these forums and just use surveys to gain direction. There is a clear polarity of "too hard" and "too easy" with about 30 people from each side posing inflammatory comments constantly and stupid memes.

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I am not as anti-difficulty as my posts might lead one to believe.

I'm anti-"things should be difficult and you should like it to be difficult or else you're a spoiled little casual crybaby, unfit to be among real men like us" that seems to be one of the prevailing attitudes here.

Wow.. I might've overlooked the point of all this somewhere in there but... are people seriously arguing about not getting a rare weapon after a boss fight?

In the long line of video games that I've played, rare weapons mean just what it says. But there is a reward: the chance of being able to get a weapon or even a totem, which eventually adds up to one. It's the same with gambling, just because you're playing the slots and winning every now and then, doesn't guarantee you'll hit the jackpot. If you win, you get something for your troubles (a few dollars back or so, or, in our case "Dark matter" lol). It may not mean the same amount of value to you, but you do get a reward. Just because it's not what you wanted it to be doesn't take away the fact that you got something after successfully beating the boss.

Same with the rare weapons, it's a dice roll. Hope you get lucky, come back and play again if you don't.

Too easy.

Or can someone here honestly say "I didn't get anything for my wins, not even Dark matter"? Cause then there'd be a problem.

Guess I'll add my 2 cents. I have played FFXI for over 6 years. In that time I have never fought a Ground HNM. Why?.....because they were the exclusive property of HNMLSs with their claiming bots. I believe SE was trying to avoid that problem by making end game fights instanced and in order to keep it from becoming the "fight it every 30 minutes" example mentioned. They require to refarm your pop items ala Kirin. That can be construed as a time sink if you want. The major point of contention appears to be the notouriously low drop rates that SE is <in>famous for. Though I do agree with the OP that many people want instant gratifacation on the first fight and every fight there after the opposong side does have a valid point. They should be able to see reasonable results for their efforts over the long haul. The drop rates do need to be adjusted upwards. Personnaly I feel that 10% fopr weapons or 50% for totems would be reasonable. IMO that is the issues that should really be discussed here....what is reasonable. IMO using the Defender Ring was a poor example. Like the Black Belt it continuesa to maintain its awsomeness. Evben Yoshida has said that the drops from the Ifrit and Moogle fights can be bettered by adding Materia to crafted items plus I suspect that there will be even more powerful gear made available as the game progresses. SO adjusting the drop rates for these is reasonable. Agree oir disagree as you wil, these are my opinions on the subject.

To the op...

In soccer...every time you score a goal you get a point... not a chance at a point.

In chess...if you get checkmate on your opponent you win... not a chance at a win. (and in tournament play, points as well)

What people are asking for in the 100% drop of totem request...if you would actually listen to them instead of dismiss it as "QQ", is that they are simply asking for the game to at least register the "win", the goal, or the checkmate...just like all your very poorly thought out analogies do. Is it really that hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by Rizon

Guess I'll add my 2 cents. I have played FFXI for over 6 years. In that time I have never fought a Ground HNM. Why?.....because they were the exclusive property of HNMLSs with their claiming bots. I believe SE was trying to avoid that problem by making end game fights instanced and in order to keep it from becoming the "fight it every 30 minutes" example mentioned. They require to refarm your pop items ala Kirin. That can be construed as a time sink if you want. The major point of contention appears to be the notouriously low drop rates that SE is <in>famous for. Though I do agree with the OP that many people want instant gratifacation on the first fight and every fight there after the opposong side does have a valid point. They should be able to see reasonable results for their efforts over the long haul. The drop rates do need to be adjusted upwards. Personnaly I feel that 10% fopr weapons or 50% for totems would be reasonable. IMO that is the issues that should really be discussed here....what is reasonable. IMO using the Defender Ring was a poor example. Like the Black Belt it continuesa to maintain its awsomeness. Evben Yoshida has said that the drops from the Ifrit and Moogle fights can be bettered by adding Materia to crafted items plus I suspect that there will be even more powerful gear made available as the game progresses. SO adjusting the drop rates for these is reasonable. Agree oir disagree as you wil, these are my opinions on the subject.

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Hrm..

Why not, instead of a yes/no totem drop just have a random amount of..I dunno..."Totem Fragments" in said chest each and every fight that you'd need to get a full stack of 99 to trade in for a weapon. I mean, the parameters for the rate of fragments dropped could be adjusted to make it average out to what we have now or the above example of a 50% rate for a full-on totem in so much as how many times we have to snuff out Ifrit. I think something like this would go a long way towards easing the discontent with the loot system as you'll at least able to see, even if you didn't get a weapon, the results of your efforts building up over time rather than needing frenzied prayer to the Random Number God.

You can't take the grind out of the MMO but there are more elegant options towards encouraging people to continue.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

To the op...

In soccer...every time you score a goal you get a point... not a chance at a point.

In chess...if you get checkmate on your opponent you win... not a chance at a win. (and in tournament play, points as well)

What people are asking for in the 100% drop of totem request...if you would actually listen to them instead of dismiss it as "QQ", is that they are simply asking for the game to at least register the "win", the goal, or the checkmate...just like all your very poorly thought out analogies do. Is it really that hard to understand?

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In all aspects, winning is rarely easy - just ask the Eagles. So with how easy these fights are it can be akin to playing dodgeball with a deaf, dumb, and blind kid. Should you get a cookie everytime you nail them? Or beating Stephen Hawking at armwrestling - does that merit an original movie starring Terry Crews and John Stamos to celebrate your victory? Not really, amigo.

So if you want a 100% droprate be willing to accept a significantly harder fight. But then the threads will be that it's too hard.

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Originally Posted by Yves

In all aspects, winning is rarely easy - just ask the Eagles. So with how easy these fights are it can be akin to playing dodgeball with a deaf, dumb, fat, and blind kid. Should you get a cookie everytime you nail them? Or beating Stephen Hawking at armwrestling - does that merit an original movie starring Terry Crews and John Stamos to celebrate your victory? Not really, amigo.

So if you want a 100% droprate be willing to accept a significantly harder fight. But then the threads will be that it's too hard.

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Again...You beat the deaf dumb kid, you beat Stephen Hawking, it all still goes in the win column, you still get the points.

Look, Again, this shouldn't be hard to understand...When you score a goal, you get a point. When you kill ifrit, you get a totem, it just makes sense...

To use an analogy that actually works, not a horrible, tortured one like your side has been using.

If you do your job, whatever it may be, Does your employer/manager come along and say..."Well I think your job is easy, I did it years ago...blah blah blah, So, we're going to roll this die, if It comes up a six, you get paid this week, if it comes up anything else...well, try again next week..."
NO! of course not, he would get sued. he gives you your paycheck and you all leave happy, maybe one day if you do your job real well you might get an even rarer reward like a promotion or a raise...but you at least get the reward of a paycheck every time.

Where does OP say anything about totem drop rate?

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Again...You beat the deaf dumb kid, you beat Stephen Hawking, it all still goes in the win column, you still get the points.

Look, Again, this shouldn't be hard to understand...When you score a goal, you get a point. When you kill ifrit, you get a totem, it just makes sense...

To use an analogy that actually works, not a horrible, tortured one like your side has been using.

If you do your job, whatever it may be, Does your employer/manager come along and say..."Well I think your job is easy, I did it years ago...blah blah blah, So, we're going to roll this die, if It comes up a six, you get paid this week, if it comes up anything else...well, try again next week..."
NO! of course not, he would get sued. he gives you your paycheck and you all leave happy, maybe one day if you do your job real well you might get an even rarer reward like a promotion or a raise...but you at least get the reward of a paycheck every time.

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To use your analogy of employment, Taco Bell employees don't deserve to be paid the best possible wages for effing up my bean burrito.

If you want to make $200k a year you generally have to work hard for it - not bag groceries. You get paid crap wages - like exp, gil, and DM.

So you look again and explain how such easy content deserves the best available rewards.

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Originally Posted by Yves

To use your analogy of employment, Taco Bell employees don't deserve to be paid the best possible wages for effing up my bean burrito.

If you want to make $200k a year you generally have to work hard for it - not bag groceries.

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yet they still get their $4.25 an hour, wether you like it or not. no one is asking for the best possible wages, I.E.: 100% drop of weapons...they're asking for 100% on the totem...they're basically asking for minimum wage

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Originally Posted by AtryxEtair

Where does OP say anything about totem drop rate?

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/bow

Rutelor

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

yet they still get their $4.25 an hour, wether you like it or not. no one is asking for the best possible wages, I.E.: 100% drop of weapons...they're asking for 100% on the totem...they're basically asking for minimum wage

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You get exp, gil and DM as a reward - minimum wage. Hey, people are ranking 45 to 50 on crafting jobs just from Ifrit. Why don't you just come out and say you're butthurt because you want the best possible rewards for doing an easy job?

I would be willing to say 100% droprate on totem if you beat it in under 10 minutes or something but there needs to be a challenge, not just doing your job.

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Originally Posted by Yves

Seriously, it might be time for SE to deactivate and shut down these forums and just use surveys to gain direction. There is a clear polarity of "too hard" and "too easy" with about 30 people from each side posing inflammatory comments constantly and stupid memes.

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This. The forum community here is just awful, although you can say the same about any official forum for a MMORPG. I'm sure they could get their feedback from a half decent fan site, one that will do more than just whine about the game and throw insults at each other.

@OP you put so much into your post that I have to dismiss the thought that you're an idiot when it comes to mind. With that said, I don't know of anyone that appreciates instant gratification.

Perhaps the people that suggested the Ifrit gear item drop be 100% and 10-15 to get a weapon seems like instant gratification to you? Let's take a look at that example. It took BG 150 attempts to beat Ifrit once. Some of their members ran it dozens of times after that looking for their gear to drop. Along the way, I think all 150 attempts were exciting and probably a few more of the battles after they had perfected their strategy. Beyond that I'm sure it turned into something mindless.

Asking for the item to be a 100% drop is rational because a lot of work goes into beating Ifrit the first time and the next several times after that.

Other than that I can't think of a recent example where someone made a suggestion to make the game more accommodating. I challenge you to prove you aren't an idiot by linking some recent examples of someone asking for instant gratification through blaming a time sink. We will have a look at the strength of your reasoning if you are up to the task.

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

This. The forum community here is just awful, although you can say the same about any official forum for a MMORPG. I'm sure they could get their feedback from a half decent fan site, one that will do more than just whine about the game and throw insults at each other.

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I agree. It seems like the problem is the hardcore vs. casual debate that seems to be endless in mmos. How can the devs reply to this without giving either side the advantage, by letting one side ride roughshod over the other? Some forums, hardcores can treat casuals like filth but if the casuals give back as good as they get, then the moderations start being handed out.

150 killed to get all ifrit weapons is about fair. since some get it all in much lower attempts, although it is sad to see people who still not get his 7/7 after 400 tries. It leave only stupid reason of "I wanna keep u paying. let me try time sink you as much as I can"

Who here dare says that a person with 400 tries win not deserve to complete his goal in ifrit yet?

100% totem drop rate is the way it should be. So you work as stepping up, not stay still and hopeless in the random meter.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Again...You beat the deaf dumb kid, you beat Stephen Hawking, it all still goes in the win column, you still get the points.

Look, Again, this shouldn't be hard to understand...When you score a goal, you get a point. When you kill ifrit, you get a totem, it just makes sense...

To use an analogy that actually works, not a horrible, tortured one like your side has been using.

If you do your job, whatever it may be, Does your employer/manager come along and say..."Well I think your job is easy, I did it years ago...blah blah blah, So, we're going to roll this die, if It comes up a six, you get paid this week, if it comes up anything else...well, try again next week..."
NO! of course not, he would get sued. he gives you your paycheck and you all leave happy, maybe one day if you do your job real well you might get an even rarer reward like a promotion or a raise...but you at least get the reward of a paycheck every time.

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This is the voice of clarity in a grossly delusional thread where XI purists continue to spew nonsense about overly repetitious tasks being fun and rewarding.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

This is the voice of clarity in a grossly delusional thread where XI purists continue to spew nonsense about overly repetitious tasks being fun and rewarding.

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there is a middle ground to be had in it though

yes some things are too repetitive, but thats a common factor amongst all games(let me not get int how a group can do a dungeon in wow for a year and still be missing drops they want)
yet there is an insta factor some people think there needs to be where you do something once, and your done cuz you should get all you need right then and there


the middle ground is what we need, yes you should have to repeat stuff, but the question is to what extent

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Originally Posted by CepheiMordred

I agree. It seems like the problem is the hardcore vs. casual debate that seems to be endless in mmos. How can the devs reply to this without giving either side the advantage, by letting one side ride roughshod over the other? Some forums, hardcores can treat casuals like filth but if the casuals give back as good as they get, then the moderations start being handed out.

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There can be compromise. Just increase the difficulty in exchange with substantially better droprates. If the casuals really just want a more even playing field or better droprate then that will accommodate them. If not, then it's just QQ because it's too hard for them.

I'm in the middle of the road on the debate. The only area that I stand firm is when people just want an easier game. Some content should be easy, some should be challenging. How that challenge is created (droprate vs. difficulty) is where the sticking point should (be if true. ) So far, very few people are approaching it from that perspective.

I'm not going to lie and say that it wasn't a bummer beating Ifrit over 300 times but, at the same time, the feeling when I finally hit 7/7 was great.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

there is a middle ground to be had in it though

yes some things are too repetitive, but thats a common factor amongst all games(let me not get int how a group can do a dungeon in wow for a year and still be missing drops they want)
yet there is an insta factor some people think there needs to be where you do something once, and your done cuz you should get all you need right then and there


the middle ground is what we need, yes you should have to repeat stuff, but the question is to what extent

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I believe it might be worth aiming for repeating something only the amount of times you care to while it is still enjoyable, even if there was no reward. How many times would you run Ifrit if there was no drop of any kind? Serious question, please answer.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

I believe it might be worth aiming for repeating something only the amount of times you care to while it is still enjoyable, even if there was no reward. How many times would you run Ifrit if there was no drop of any kind? Serious question, please answer.

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id run it hundreds of times if i had to

thing is i dont play for rewards, i play for fun, and usualy do things with friends only

unlike most im not after the reward but the experience

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Originally Posted by CepheiMordred

I agree. It seems like the problem is the hardcore vs. casual debate that seems to be endless in mmos. How can the devs reply to this without giving either side the advantage, by letting one side ride roughshod over the other? Some forums, hardcores can treat casuals like filth but if the casuals give back as good as they get, then the moderations start being handed out.

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I don't really believe it's something as simple as just "casual vs. hardcore" as you can build a conceptual design that can accomodate both styles of play without stretching imagination too much. Like having a series of breadcrumbs that would lead to the same goal that can be chopped into smaller play segments (that would be less efficient to run all at the same time) or having a larger activity that requires a larger block of contiguous playtime that would save some time overall in getting to the same point in that it exchanges time flexibility for quicker completion.

The variable in both casual and hardcore arguments is identifying the entitled elements that fall under hardcore (total shutout of casual elements or hooks) or casual (reward given outweighing effort required, invalidating the hardcore style). It's not about SE siding with either casual or hardcore as you can build something to cater to both rather easily in concept but if they were to mistakenly side with an entitled view as a concept then the game would be worse off because of that and the arguments would continue.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

I like to call it: Delusional Achievement - (phrase) meaning: obtaining something that leads one to believe they are successful in a certain set of objectives wherein they must obtain numerous of these somethings in order to really achieve the end goal. ie - Requiring a player to obtain 10 Ifrit Totems for just one Ifrit weapon is a Delusional Achievement.

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To go along w/ this, just cause I support what you say.

I've always claimed that gear never made the game more fun. There is a novelty that comes w/ getting something new. A games worth cannot be judged in the amount of loot, content, and people that play it. Like a journey and the destination, or an employee and his/her job. It's not what you do, it's how you do it. It's not where you're going but the trip that takes you there.

I think the problem is this is generic content w/ mediocre rewards... The weapons itself are mediocre, but the trip to getting the rewards is just as... Some people love the battles, some hate them, that's not the point of this post. Essentially, you talk to elf dude in Gridania, spam enter through text, spam tapers, spam ifrit, get frustrated w/ boredom because you've done the same thing for x amount of hours and have gotten either a) nothing (worst case scenario) or b) something, a weapon that deals barely a fraction of more dmg then your previous weapon. The game can be beat w/o the Ifrit/Moogle weapons. The weapons are just reassuring, I suppose. Whatever people need reassurance for... the whole reason why they would sit at their comp and redo the same tasks day in and day out in this obvi broken game.

Gears nice, but memories are nicer. And i truely mean that (/sob). Gear itself is a memory. The time you got that sick piece of loot. So long as all a player plays for is the loot, he's gonna sell him/herself short on a ton of other joyful memories/experiences.

[SIZE="5"]Examples!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/SIZE]

• Your first trip to Jeuno/Sky/Sea/Whitegate.
• Long drawn out HNM battles where you could cut the tension w/ a knife.
• Pulling all nighters w/ a bunch of people in your party you just randomly met.
• ... and the time you killed Kil'jaeden for the first time pre Wrath of the Lich King. :D lol

I know these aren't FFXIV memories, but, I figure you guys can guess why.

If a game dev were to try and replicate the "First time to [random] destination.", try to think what made the trip so special, and not just make a bunch of random places for people to go w/ no purpose other then to read a wall of txt.

I'm not some lovey dovey gamer, I'm pretty competitive n grind the hell out of games in order to do whatever I can to get what I want. I just happen look back to where my nostalgia and inspiration comes from when I chose to continue playing this MMO.

Ishguard has the potential to give people goosebumps the first time they visit. Pending on the atmosphere/music/npcs/rewards/quests/misc goodies.

Not trying to undermine the game devs, sorry. :(

And I know the gear loot whoring philosophy doesn't apply to every gamer.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

If a dev team puts too much content that results in unknown outcomes players will just eventually put the one real resourcI don't agree that the people asking for heightening drop rates are entirely focused on making the game "instantly" gratifying but they do, at the very least, want to see that their one real resource, time, is not being wasted in vain and putting checkpoints rather than invisible walls on the way to the goal is a better strategy for everyone involved, developer and player alike.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I'm going to stand for Frustration!

If this forum was about giving players the impression they had a say in redesigning, say, Soccer, this is how it would often go:

"Can we get rid, please (pretty please!!!) of all that wasted effort, and allow me to just stand anywhere, bypassing the defense, and score a goal, even if I didn't move up the field fighting for the ball against them???" It's just such a time sink that I cannot score whenever I want...!! Please, scratch out that pesky rule about off-sides, nooooowww!!! (And while we're at it, can we please get rid of the goalkeeper? He/She makes things soooo much more difficult and TIME CONSUMING!"

If this forum was about giving them the impression they had a say in re-designing Chess, this is how it would frequently go:

"This SUCKS!!! I demand you enable the ability to checkmate without having to spend 2 or more hours devising a strategy to get through all the moves my idiotic opponent insists on placing against me. Allow for my queen to jump pieces like you already did for the knight, and we'll have a winner, and I'll never look back!!! I only have so many hours to play. I'm a casual, not a hardcore."

And if the devs allow them to keep on getting everything they want in this game, we'll soon be reading their printed yells:

"...I want rewards, rewards, rewards, every time I move. Please add bell, totem, weapon and gear showers to happen after every step I take, even if I'm riding my chocobo."

If we don't want the minimum common denominator to turn this game into a similarly depressing rubble of smoldering ash as the one FFXI became after Abyssea, please stop listening to these people. And let's all try to remember that, besides creating the need for strategy, and cooperation, delayed satisfaction increases desire, and when satisfaction finally comes, it's ten times stronger if you feel you went through what feels like a decently proportionate struggle to achieve it. (Nobody is talking about anything resembling ridiculous levels, like Absulute Virtue did, BTW.)

On these forums, over the months, I've read plenty of definitions of what FF stands for. I know nobody asked me, but as far as I am concerned, when I played any of the FF-branded games, it stood for a serious challenge every time, and the great satisfaction of conquering that challenge. Things have never been readily available to FF players.

Someone out there decided that all limits and deterrents were time-sinks; that a "modern" game's function was to gratify, gratify, gratify without obstacles or difficulties, and that any barrier on your way to endless gratification, was a deviant, passée attempt by the designers to squeeze time out of you for their devious purposes; that contemporary game design is not about obstacles, but rather the satisfaction of our desperate desire for constant reward; that somehow we were idiotically deceived, in olden times, and that we had been granted the light of revelation, only recently. And thank the heavens for that, since because of that revelation we have now become aware of the fact that we could do away with difficulty altogether. After all we don't want to be reminded of real life. Hello Kitty Online had the answer all this time!

What comes out of these demands are nothing but ritualized paths of "fools' pleasure," in which you convince yourself you're fighting, but you're not! Actually, there's no way you can lose the encounter... it's just so that you think you're battling a monster, but you'll beat it no matter what. Don't they see it? Isn't THAT the real time sink?? Why don't we, instead, skip the battles, sign on and collect our rewards for the day, then chat a bit, and log out?

It's a Hyperbole, of course. But what it stands for is not the game I want, and I know neither does the great majority of the legacy FF players; nor the great majority of the legacy MMO buffs anywhere.

I say to the devs:
"Send the minimum-common-denominator players back to Free Realms, where they belong. You'll gather plenty of a following, believe me."

To the immediate-returns players, I say:
"I mean, if you don't have the time, the focus, or the willingness--amidst credit-card-debt woes, parenthood duties and your two jobs--to play chess, I totally understand it... And I truly sympathize with you. Totally. I often stand in your very shoes. But please, stop lobbying for Chess to be modified so that it resembles Parcheesi. Rather, why don't you just go play Parcheesi instead?"

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I suppose we can look forward to one whole year of posts like this with hardly any casuals who are playing the game anymore to say otherwise. Your depiction of what casual players want is inaccurate, inflammatory, and despicable, but there's no reasoning with you, so I won't bother.

FFXIV 2.0 is doomed if you're listened to, though. You're only shooting yourselves in the foot by saying stuff like this. And I know you don't believe me, so whatevs.

Have fun trying to kill Final Fantasy by making the game inhospitable to greater numbers! You only have yourselves to blame when the game folds from a lack of players due to your unwillingness to share.

Agreed. The Legendary Weapons in XI for example, when I finally got my Gungnir I was the happiest person in the world! But the best thing about it was that it wasn't really 'hard' it was just having to fulfill a series of checkpoints, like in a race (except the only driver is you). And if anyone says that Legendary Weapons in XI were not 'hardcore' content well then maybe that person needs to (re)attempt to get one.

While it did take years to get one of them, the memories along the way, the "blood, sweat, and tears" so to speak, made it all the more gratifying when I finally got the item. Now that being said the Primal Weapons are hardly at the same level as the Legendary Weapons were (in comparison to the other weapons in their respective games) So the task to obtain them should not nearly be as long to obtain. I would say to REMOVE weapon (completed) drops from the Ifrit Fight entirely, instead make just the Totem drop.

Upon Victory:
+1 Totem 100%
+1 Totem 5-50% (this Totem's % will vary on the time it took to win, higher % for the faster the fight)
+1 Totem 5-50% (based on the total amount of damage the party took through out the fight; not the remaining HP; the lesser the total damage taken the higher the %)
+1 Totem 5-50% (this Totem's % will vary depending on how many successful and complete combos where landed on Ifrit; the higher the number of complete combos the higher the %)

Make it require 15-20 Totems to obtain ONE weapon of your choosing from an NPC. There now you have your 'casual' (I suppose) and hardcore (I suppose) blended into a balanced fit. Hardcore players should (since you'd think a hardcore player to be more skilled, or at least used to) get more Totems per run getting their weapons faster, while a casual group might take a little bit longer.

Also with requiring 15 (min) Totems it would take a static group of players ~75+ runs (average of the high and low) and if you require 20 (max) Totems it would take a static group of players ~80+ (again avg high/low). I personally don't see anything wrong with a system like this. Its rewarding, it allows for progression, and more importantly it gives people a sense of "moving forward" every time they win.

I got it now.

OP will wait till post 1.000 to deliver the actual song, asking for it before that point would be wishing for instant gratification

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

id run it hundreds of times if i had to

thing is i dont play for rewards, i play for fun, and usualy do things with friends only

unlike most im not after the reward but the experience

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That wasn't too terribly illuminating. You didn't answer!