Dear SE, BLM is great, but please consider the following

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

These are all unrelated things.
Golems are inanimate constructs. Even if you were to infuse consciousness into one (and the golems we see in the BLM storyline for SB are certainly not sapient), this process (of pumping aether into an inanimate entity) has nothing to do with raising the wounded/dead. The only golem we see like this is that face-wall thing in Mhach, and it was very clearly a construct no different from an automaton.
Even the Amdapori golems (that did use life force from the woods) wouldn't fit the bill for "raising" an actual living thing.

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Edda brought her dead husband back as a voidsent as well. The golem and elements (and voidsent) pary was me crying about why i cant summon a dark elemental.


Why cant we still summon.

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

Edda brought her dead husband back as a voidsent as well. The golem and elements (and voidsent) pary was me crying about why i cant summon a dark elemental.


Why cant we still summon.

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Edda was a white mage/necromancer thing. She started as a conjurer and has white mage gear in Tam-Tara HM ;)
(And I'd rather leave the summoning to the, hum... summoners x)...)

BLM is just a class that is hard to balance.
Give it mobility and it loses class identity & the fun aspect of the class.
Give it damage and the "pro" BLM's and any fight with less mobility and BLM will destroy.
Adding utility would be an ok way to balance BLM but I like the idea of being a pure destruction kind of class. (+ I think Mana Shift can be useful very situationally.)

All they can do is buff BLM damage so it can keep up with SAM.
Adding a 5% damage buff on Umbral Hearts should be an alright buff for that. If not that, just give us our old F4, B4 potencies back.
Convert cooldown would be great if it was on a 1 min cooldown so it always lines up with sharpcast. (but maybe that's a bit too much to ask.)

And I still think an Aetherial Manipulation change where it doesn't require a target would be great.
Would be interesting if Aetherial Manipulation & Between the lines would be usable during cast & not interrupt your cast though. Would make BLM feel a lot more fluid to play.

Any sort of wall or blocking ability would make BLM a bit too strong I feel.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Edda was a white mage/necromancer thing. She started as a conjurer and has white mage gear in Tam-Tara HM ;)
(And I'd rather leave the summoning to the, hum... summoners x)...)

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Go to tamtara hm and read the notes she studied thaumaturgy to resurrect him.

1) I feel BLM is pure and simple damage. Raising is not and should not be in its repertoire.
2) Surecast is useless, currently. I'm in for any change to it that makes it even situationally viable.
3) Triplecast is great as it is. You can save it for movement heavy situations or spend it for a dps gain. The 60 second cd isn't too long where it punishes you for using it at the wrong time. Plus if you take swift cast , you've already got 1 instant cast skill every 30 seconds.
4) AM's 20 second cd along with swift and triple cast should give enough mobility options. I'm not against this change, but I don't feel it would add much.
5) I would love to see convert get a cd reduction. BLM should be high risk, high reward and sacrificing your own hp for higher dps epitomizes that idea.

I also agree that freeze needs some adjustments to make it at all viable.
Other than that, everything else seems to be unnecessary buffs.

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Originally Posted by Psycofang

Go to tamtara hm and read the notes she studied thaumaturgy to resurrect him.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._spoilers_all/
These are the "notes", which are more like a "deranged love-letter diary thing".
Nothing here seems to suggest a connection with what the Thaumaturges from the Ul'Dah guild actually do.
It seems, rather, to hint at influence from a powerful voidsent.
The game eventually ties this around with the necromancer boss on floor 100 of PotD (who also experiments on corpses in a such a way). Whether or not this was planned by the time of Tam-Tara HM I cannot say.
Note that butchering the living and siphoning life force into her monster seems eerily closer what that npc from the HW WHM storyline did, although she wasn't a white mage or a thaumaturge or anything we know.
The Void aether seems particularly useful to this sort of "undead revival" tasks.

Nailed it.

Oh yeah. Mayve read too much into the whole void aether thing.

Black Magic's utility has historically been crippling enemies, -but everything in FF14 is immune- so...

Looking from a pure MMO standpoint, the evolution of games has been removing 'support' based classes or retuning them to function as full fledged members of the Holy Trinity, while every class within the Holy Trinity receives a shared / unique source of utility while bringing comparable numbers.

This is the important part. You cannot 'balance' something in the system FF14 has chosen by giving it better numbers only, because every class must be able to contribute meaningfully in the numbers department.

Embolden is not utility, it's damage, and factors into the RDM's bottom line, much like Brotherhood, Battle Litany, and any 'Vulnerability Up' debuffs.

In this regard, the distribution is both strange and uneven, not just among mages, but in general. FF14 need not follow the recipe to the letter, but the lack of utility on DPS, and the lack of party synergy from the Healers / Tanks , combined with the limited 4/8 party set up, makes the prospect of additional jobs troublesome. Samurai, when the next MDPS job is brought out, might see itself get relegated to Monk-status and the new job be the 'heavy hitter' for example, because the DPS utility is almost squarely in the hands of the DPS.

Editing for more stuff

BLM in theory have free ress since they have no penalty using mana shift on healer. If summoner use ress or mana shift that is dps loss because of less ruin3 casts. BLM have higher mana pool as well so mana shift bring more mana for healers than SMN version of it.

I REALLY don't like the idea of a BLM rez. I'm all for giving them more consistency but at the same time they are supposed to be stationary casters. Perhaps giving them something that allows them to dodge/block/mitigate some lower damage AoEs? Something like a phase out or a mana shield would fit very well.

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Originally Posted by Stormblessed9000

I REALLY don't like the idea of a BLM rez. I'm all for giving them more consistency but at the same time they are supposed to be stationary casters. Perhaps giving them something that allows them to dodge/block/mitigate some lower damage AoEs? Something like a phase out or a mana shield would fit very well.

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Manawall got nerfed way back in 2.X, and folded into Manaward for Stormblood.

You cannot solely adjust a class only on damage. A Red Mage doing 20% less damage instantly loses their slot the moment that the Raise is no longer considered needed, but a Red mage doing 5-10% less than a Black mage gets chosen because why not, it's safer and you aren't really losing anything for it.

That is why suggestions get made to shore up inequities in the Utility department. Because a class must be able to compete numerically, and so long as the differences there are minor enough, then the added Utility is what you decide you want.

"Do I want 5% less damage but greater access to wipe recovery, or do I want as much damage as possible with only limited recovery options?"
"Do we want the burst phase with a machinist, or the steady output of the Bard?"
"Do we want the steady output of the Ninja or the Litany spike with the Dragoon?"

These are essentially the questions you could ask, were they all within the same numerical range.

There's a giant rearranging of who brings what that needs to happen though we'll see if 5.0 addresses that at all.

you will not fine enough mana to cast a void raise unfortunately.
and next you will complain about why other class not getting penalty for raising but BLM have big penalty trying to raise someone due to how astral/umbral and mana work in BLM class mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

"Do I want 5% less damage but greater access to wipe recovery, or do I want as much damage as possible with only limited recovery options?"

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Isn't that exactly the current trade-off between BLM and RMG barring numbers tweaks? One provides more damage but the other provides recovery options?

Overall the idea that classes should have near-equal DPS is a valid approach. However, without considering utility, this leads to homogenization to the point that there's no point in taking a class that even slightly under-performs in raw DPS since that's literally the only thing that they bring. It's very hard to balance classes that closely. You've kind of argued that the time-distribution (burst vs sustain) would distinguish classes but in reality it rarely matters and most classes are designed such that the bursts cannot be saved for mechanics without significantly hurting average DPS.

Throw utility into the mix and then you need to balance that so that every class has distinct utilities that are equally useful. If they aren't distinct (i.e. giving every caster rez), then you face the same homogenization issue with fine-balancing mattering too much. If they are varied, it's very hard to actually make them all useful and you start to get classes being left out since their utility is not as useful as others in the current content. This is kind of already an issue as RDM will become far less useful in speed clears since it's support will become obsolete.

Ultimately SE seems to have gone with giving varied utility and trying to balance DPS around it. This isn't a perfect approach, as none are, but it seems to be working reasonably well outside of a few outliers.

On the topic of the rez. It's against the feel of the class, homogenizes the casters, and is VERY lazy. If BLM need a utility they should be given something else.

Out of all your suggestions, a proposed cooldown reduction to Aetherial Manipulation is the only change that stays true to BLMs turret identity and rewards strategizing with your group. Everything else just sounds like easy mode and begins encroaching on RDM's playstyle [so..yeah easymode :p] High mobility lots of insta casts and a Raise does not gel with the already established identity of BLM as a turret class that has to carefully plan out where and when to use their cooldowns in order to minimize unnecessary running around, which your Surecast and "Quickcast" changes would actively encourage. Yoshi P scoffed and rolled his eyes at the prospect of BLM getting a Raise. Because it's an awful idea. Maybe BLMs could donate a bigger portion of their mana with Manashift if they **must** have some utility shoehorned onto them. I would like AM to be on a 15 second cooldown and I would like the cooldown of transpose to be reduced. 1 second is fine in theory but there are a few annoying phase transitions where I'm left waiting for a boss to become targetable with <3 seconds on my AF/UI timer. Not enough time to cast, but still gotta wait for transpose to be up, just end up standing about like a lemon.

I hope one day people will stop focusing on the optimal. Every job can do the end game content, the only difference between any of it is speed and difficulty. If you know the fight mechanics and have good muscle/timing memory you will be able to keep up to par on DPS. If nobody in the PF wants a BLM for it, then find people who will and do your own static group. People care way to much about meta in this game.. Just play the job you like and enjoy yourselves sheesh.

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Originally Posted by Stormblessed9000

Isn't that exactly the current trade-off between BLM and RMG barring numbers tweaks? One provides more damage but the other provides recovery options?

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No, the trade off is about 5-10% less damage and no access to raid recovery. The encounters in Omega are thankfully not heavily movement based like, Titan EX, or other contemporary "Black Mage nightmares", but at the same time, the damage disparity is not so large that Red Mage isn't just an overall better choice anyways.

People are not perfect, and people will make mistakes, and the Black mage's only answer is "Hit the thing harder" while the red mage loses one GCD to bring the person back into the fold.

And again, is gaining 5-10% damage worth giving up that safety? I'd argue it's a subjective viewpoint, but I'd imagine most people not on farm status would argue no.

Couldn't SE just buff BM by nerfing RM? Just get rid of the Rez like they did to SMN and we are in...

At the OP. Only changes I really agree with is the AM hangs and the surecast fix. Triple cast is so good right now. No idea why you want to change that. We have 4 insta casts ATM and BLM feels so much more mobile now than before. I have no idea what you mean by MP issues though since they fixed it with the re SNT changes.

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Originally Posted by NoctusT

At the OP. Only changes I really agree with is the AM hangs and the surecast fix. Triple cast is so good right now. No idea why you want to change that. We have 4 insta casts ATM and BLM feels so much more mobile now than before. I have no idea what you mean by MP issues though since they fixed it with the re SNT changes.

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EDIT: **changes, **recent (on mobile no idea how to edit my post)

1) needs a slight single target potency increase
blm should be like sam, no utility but big dps, and not only on raids with adds or long standstill phases

2) losing astral / enochian (and losing the foul build up) when under astral ice and using fire 1 (like with sharpcast) is crazy and pointless,
why does the fire astral then "cancel" the ice astral, and astral ice (& enochian) falls of completely?

3) using B4 should be a single target gain
(dunno if it actually is now, but if it's not or so minor, it's not worth the risk to cast; than it needs to be fixed;
which comes back to Nr 1, maybe a slight potency increase could fix that)

4) the last second of enochian is very tight, also due to server lags, could be a bit more flexible (but either I've kind of gotten used to it, or it has received some slight fix)

5) the range of aetherial manipulation (& between the lines) could be increased to 30y, just sometimes it's annoying when a party member moves out of range by a tick

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Originally Posted by Finkledoodoo

Couldn't SE just buff BM by nerfing RM? Just get rid of the Rez like they did to SMN and we are in...

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Uh, hate to burst your bubble there, but SMN still has its rez.

At the OP. Only changes I really agree with is the AM changes and the surecast fix. Triple cast is so good right now. No idea why you want to change that. We have 4 insta casts ATM and BLM feels so much more mobile now than before. I have no idea what you mean by MP issues though since they fixed it with the recent changes.

Also regarding thunder your proposal would just make it OP. While I'd love to do more damage it doesn't feel right.

I do think the same for concert, though I like the idea of changing convert to 90 secs more than I like the idea of buffing thunder

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Originally Posted by Ventok

Uh, hate to burst your bubble there, but SMN still has its rez.

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Oops, lol. I don't know where I got that from then. There must be so many complaints going around that I can't keep them straight... Screw it, if everybody else has a rez, give us one too then...

turn thunder III (dots) into a slight magic vulnerability buff, giving Blm a slight utility.., atleast with other casters and healers.., makkng smn & blm a valid combo too again...., with rdm ofc too
(than nerf the thunder potency a tick, so it evens it out.. or let there still be an overall slight increase of blm dps, by a tick)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

t3 dots give magic vulnerability... let there still be an overall slight increase of blm dps, by a tick')

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by a good tick' (since it will buff rdm and smn, might as well let itbuff blm too, so don't nerf t3 much or at all, if t3 dots would receive a slight magic vulnerability)..

physical dps have enough buff possibilities already..

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

No, the trade off is about 5-10% less damage and no access to raid recovery. The encounters in Omega are thankfully not heavily movement based like, Titan EX, or other contemporary "Black Mage nightmares", but at the same time, the damage disparity is not so large that Red Mage isn't just an overall better choice anyways.

People are not perfect, and people will make mistakes, and the Black mage's only answer is "Hit the thing harder" while the red mage loses one GCD to bring the person back into the fold.

And again, is gaining 5-10% damage worth giving up that safety? I'd argue it's a subjective viewpoint, but I'd imagine most people not on farm status would argue no.

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Again, you're arguing damage vs raid recovery. Also, remember that you have two healers with access to instant rez every minute so it's not like the raid doesn't have recovery options. With the proposed 'void raise' at a 2min cooldown it will only be 5 instant rez per 2 minutes instead of 4.

Ultimately though, what you seem to want is a complete paradigm shift in the way SE balance classes, which is both very unlikely and not necessary even necessary.

Here is some dream changes I would like for Black Mage that would make it perfect in my opinion.

Thunder 3 and 4 MP reduction
Fire IV MP reduction
Scathe potency increased to 150
Firestarter Proc and Thundercloud Proc now last 15 seconds

Now I rather have one or the other for these last two listed.

Fire IV and Blizzard IV potency has been increased to 280.
or
Umbral Hearts gives you a buff to any Fire Spell.

Black Mage is already great in my opinion but, these are just changes I wouldn't mind seeing in the future.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...83/040/cff.png

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Originally Posted by Stormblessed9000

Again, you're arguing damage vs raid recovery. Also, remember that you have two healers with access to instant rez every minute so it's not like the raid doesn't have recovery options. With the proposed 'void raise' at a 2min cooldown it will only be 5 instant rez per 2 minutes instead of 4.

Ultimately though, what you seem to want is a complete paradigm shift in the way SE balance classes, which is both very unlikely and not necessary even necessary.

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What I personally want is more technical combat.

in regards to what we have now, it is simply a concerning statement to give another caster Raising capability, and superior raising capability at that. Cross that bridge when we come to it, I suppose.

Two years from now, when Rainbow Mage comes out, and it turns out they can not only Raise, but also put defensive buffs on allies while maintaining comparable damage to Red Mages, I'll just scratch my head and keep on trucking with my Blam.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

What I personally want is more technical combat.

in regards to what we have now, it is simply a concerning statement to give another caster Raising capability, and superior raising capability at that. Cross that bridge when we come to it, I suppose.

Two years from now, when Rainbow Mage comes out, and it turns out they can not only Raise, but also put defensive buffs on allies while maintaining comparable damage to Red Mages, I'll just scratch my head and keep on trucking with my Blam.

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Except homogenization doesn't make more tactical combat, it makes choices matter far less. The fact that people swapped out samurai for monks for world first runs to squeeze out some extra sustain speaks volumes. While the tuning is far from perfect (poor summoners and mechanists), the system overall makes raid composition actually matter.

Also, when people gear up and get more comfortable with fights (and SE does balance tweaks based on the savage data), the extra suitability is going to matter far less and you'll probably see far less red mages and monks and far more black mages and samurai.

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Originally Posted by Stormblessed9000

Except homogenization doesn't make more tactical combat, it makes choices matter far less.

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I feel like I need to clarify that when I talk about technical combat, I don't only mean the job system. There's a huge flaw in how they divide up their utilities, but that's a whole other rant.

Technical combat is based primarily on the encounters. All those useless non-damaging skills we get are indicative of a combat system and dungeon design that can be more than a lunch break event or a gauntlet of bosses.

Me saying "I want more technical combat" has nothing to do with the Black Mage raise subject. So, sorry there. It was a non-sequitur.

On the subject of Black mage Raise, I'm indifferent in either case. I'd like something more than "high durmage" since I advocate that anyone in the DPS role should be competitive in that role.

Being the only caster not seriously hurt by Mana Shift is pretty neat, too bad it has to be a long CD to be balanced. Honestly, I could settle for Mana Shift being a BLM only thing, and working a way to make it more potent while being a larger choice to use.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

snip.

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Fair enough. Honestly, if they're going to add more utility to black mage then I'd much rather they expand on the mana battery aspect. Maybe even give them a player health to healer mana skill.

personally, the changes Llugen asks for are nice, .. but if all where done, Blm would possibly become too OP (though shortening aetherial manipulation cd would be nice..)

I'd really jzst be just happy with a slight (f4) potency increase, so B4 rota makes sense.., and blm can compete in a all raids with sam, rdm, nin & co

+ a fix too the "lose astral ice when using fire 1" would be appreciated (that feels broken)

I would prefer that BLM not be given a resurrection skill. Lore reasons are debatable, but in the end I think BLM should be continue to be tuned in the direction of doing what it already does well. SMN and RDM should retain the utility/party recovery advantage, though balance between those two might need some attention.

Frankly, I also don't want any new form of BLM utility that doesn't weave pretty much directly into my rotation. Part of BLM's appeal to me is that it's a very liberating sort of "selfish" role that has relatively little interaction with others in the party outside of performing certain mechanics or tossing the odd Mana Shift or Apocatastasis. As a healer main, I have to admit that it's nice to have a break from being concerned with everyone else's status or positioning or from having to blow my Swiftcast to promptly scrape a body off the floor.

BLM need to stop crying. Now that properly geared players are taking on savage we are seeing that they are in a good spot. Current dps on savage bosses has them right below SAM and 300-400 dps more than RDM and even more than SMN.

Tbh I think nerfs might come if the scaling remains as is

Honestly things like raise should be normalized between casters to not give anyone huge advantageo ver another. Something like cross class ability with no cast time and fixed CD would be good.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Tbh I think nerfs might come if the scaling remains as is

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This is why people shouldn't be asking for nerfs or buffs before the first hard content actually hits. BLM logs for Savage are quite good and they are in a good spot right below SAM. Maybe SAM should be brought down just a bit too BLM.

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Originally Posted by Gwaeron89

Honestly things like raise should be normalized between casters to not give anyone huge advantageo ver another. Something like cross class ability with no cast time and fixed CD would be good.

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Then what would be the point of playing RDM or SMN if BLM could just raise as well while being 300-400 DPS higher than both of them? The higher DPS comes at a lack of utility. Despite what a lot of people are parroting, it seems now that RDM is in a good spot. Middle of the pack dps about 100 more than BRD. Classes like SMN and MCH should be brought up a bit and then it might be balanced.