Silly tank melds

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I'm not even sure why this is such a hotly contested issue. Do I personally wish that there was strength on my accessories, that my attacks hit harder? Of course I do. But if it means sacrificing my own tankiness, then that's not a trade-off I personally like.

If I were an absolute cutting edge raider, if I were in a highly competitive static, then yes, these melding issues would be something I would be involved with. But most players aren't. Hell, most players aren't in statics, and many who are will try to meld to their static's personal playstyle. And getting worked up about that fact is just a waste of time and sanity.

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Pretty much what I was getting at in my previous post.

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Originally Posted by Deus_ex_Machina

Spell speed? PIETY melds, new META!!!

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Given the impact of Requirescat, someone should math that out.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Pretty much what I was getting at in my previous post.

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So you did! Posting from my phone, so these forums have a nasty habit of not refreshing the most recent posts. Sorry!

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Given the impact of Requirescat, someone should math that out.

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Piety only works on Healers, just as Tenacity only works on Tanks.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

So you did! Posting from my phone, so these forums have a nasty habit of not refreshing the most recent posts. Sorry!

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It's okay! I'm glad we're in agreement. ^.^

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

So not doing, what, 100 more DPS a second is going to wipe a raid? And that doesn't indicate that there is something else wrong with the raid?

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That 100 DPS from bad melds probably isn't making the difference. But, neither does one vote in an election. See where I'm going with this?

One grain of sand is insignificant. Adding one more grain of sand is also insignificant. Add enough, and it becomes a mountain, but no one grain put it to that point. It's the sum total.

Optimization is about taking away grains of sand (points of DPS loss) to keep the mountain (failed DPS checks) from forming.

It seems simplistic to frame it all in DPS, but party DPS is the metric to measure it by. Not personal DPS, party DPS. Proper optimization leads to higher party DPS, whether it be from dodging AoE's, mitigating tankbusters, coordinating party buffs, what have you. It all leads to more party DPS.

Edit: There is also a valid discussion of what is "good enough" for PUG content. Personally, I wouldn't slack in any way in a PUG so I get upset when someone else does. But, I realize there are many who feel that they don't have to try hard in a PUG.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

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1) So how exactly does Direct Hit over Tenacity affect party DPS? It adds more to your personal DPS and...that's really it. Meanwhile Tenacity increases your mitigation while also increasing your personal DPS. I don't know the exact numbers, but on paper, as a tank why would you ever choose DH over Tenacity?

2) That is one hell of a dismissal, saying that people who don't meld materia the way you want, which melding materia itself is more than what most players do, are players that don't "try hard in a PUG". Your elitism and ego is really hurting your point.

Here's my argument as someone that went Tenacity/Det:

1) The gear I'm wearing is 310; which will be just entry level stuff when they release the new tome gear. As such, I don't feel like investments of anything else is worth more than Vs.
2) There is no concrete proof or theorycraft out there that have been stating what the stat weighs are for 4.0. Trust me: i've been watching on a daily basis both here and Reddit.
3) Tenacity and Det allowed me to make myself a bit less squishy for my healers to deal with. And gave me a bit more ATK. And make better heals. To me, that's a net gain to help out those healers that are still new. (We're around 2 weeks since the release of the expansion. There are still new people.)
4) I focus on defensive stats over offensive stats. My job is to tank and yes, I will throw in as much dps and switch over to Sword Oath when I can and the input of damage is low, but I want to be able to take a hit. Tenacity and Determination allow me to do so without feeling like I'm going to make my healer cry uncle.

When the stat weighs come out at some point and when the tome gear is also released, I'm going to review my choice and go accordingly. At this point, it sounds like Direct Hit is the way to go because it essentially does the most DPS for the tank to increase threat and add more DPS to the fights in order to shorten them. But I'm more concerned about helping my healers not feel like they're gonna have heart attacks every time I get hit by a tankbuster or other reasons.

Every start of the expansion, I personally always focus more on the defensive stats. Come mid and late game, I go more offensive as I normally outgear the runs I do. To me, Tenacity and Det work great.

And that's why I do it.

Why do people complain so much about what is supposedly "sub-optimal" when it makes little to no difference in normal, is not even really needed in hard/extreme, and only really comes into play in Savage (which most people will never do anyway)? Even if it were 1000 dps difference, it still wouldn't effect your daily roulette noticeably... The elitism in this community is just completely out of control...

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

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From the testing so far, Tenacity doesn't offer a large enough defensive benefit to make it worth the loss compared to other substats. Just like tank stance is a bigger loss than the gain it gives healers. The math is always subject to changing with patches, but that's why testing is important.

I'm not dismissing bad melds. I'm generalizing. Optimizing everything is freaking hard. Nobody has perfect play, perfect gear, and everything else perfect. You can't. There's simply no way. When I talk about optimization, it's generally in regards to attitude and willingness to improve over time in areas where you know you are lacking.

Having bad/no melds is one thing. Hell, my current gear is unmelded as of this moment. Calling it good enough is another.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Just like tank stance is a bigger loss than the gain it gives healers.

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Okay, I know you have more to your post than this, but...I'm sorry, what? Are you just trolling at this point? Why would you ever, EVER recommend all players stance dance? I can barely handle Exdeath's normal damage in tank stance, why would I even think about stance dancing while I have him, and that's with gearing Tenacity, rotating cooldowns, Sheltron-ing Thunder 3, Clemency when necessary... Like, I get stance dancing while off tanking, and I do this, but when I have the boss, why take the ability to reduce the damage you take away? For the extra autoattack damage? Are you high?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Okay, I know you have more to your post than this, but...I'm sorry, what? Are you just trolling at this point? Why would you ever, EVER recommend all players stance dance? I can barely handle Exdeath's normal damage in tank stance, why would I even think about stance dancing while I have him, and that's with gearing Tenacity, rotating cooldowns, Sheltron-ing Thunder 3, Clemency when necessary... Like, I get stance dancing while off tanking, and I do this, but when I have the boss, why take the ability to reduce the damage you take away? For the extra autoattack damage? Are you high?

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I'm referring to back in HW where you definitely dropped tank stance after establishing hate on many bosses. The meta for SB hasn't solidified, so it very well may not be the case this expac, but it definitely was in HW.

From dungeons to raids, perfecting tanking a boss involved minimizing time in tank stance.

Edit: If you're actually brand new like your join date says, you wouldn't be familiar with it. I apologize. The tank meta previously was to (generally) drop tank stance after 1 or 2 hate combos and go into your opener. It wasn't quite that simple, with Unchained pulls and early vokes, but the gist is that you attempted to minimize time in tank stance because the loss in your damage was greater than the gain in damage healers received from you needing less healing.

Naturally, this didn't work when you or the healer were undergeared or unfamiliar with a fight.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Your fun ends where others begins. For content such as dungeons and even to an extent EX primals, you have some leeway and if you want to be a forever shield oath paladin or a fist of wind monk, you can probably get away with it and no one will really mind.

But if we're wiping to enrage and your creative playstyle is a factor leading to that, then something has to give.

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Let's be honest, pretty sure tank damage isn't the problem if a party is wiping to enrage. Look to the DPS first before the tanks and healers.

Just to clarify: I'm posting this with regards to tanks because this thread is about tank melds/dps.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

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I've been playing since the start of HW, but it was never anything more than casual, as back then, I was raiding in WoW. I'm just now starting to get deeper into the game as of late as, once my life finally calms down after my move, I want to slot myself into a static.

Because I come from WoW, I do have a more traditional philosophy on tanking, especially with how Blizzard has been handling tanking the past few expansions with active mitigation, or "do more to prevent more". That's why I like paladin so much, because it incentivizes use of Holy Spirit while tanking to give you more mitigation through Sheltron.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Because I come from WoW, I do have a more traditional philosophy on tanking, especially with how Blizzard has been handling tanking the past few expansions with active mitigation, or "do more to prevent more". That's why I like paladin so much, because it incentivizes use of Holy Spirit while tanking to give you more mitigation through Sheltron.

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Seen a couple old WoWers share some grievances in that; it's weird. 3.x tank really were just Bruisers more than Tanks, and the Tank Stance was treated more as just another mitigation c/d that you threw up for busters. The only one really with aggressive mitigation then was WAR with their sustain and that was better served through Deliverance. It's all different now, though.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

Seen a couple old WoWers share some grievances in that; it's weird. 3.x tank really were just Bruisers more than Tanks, and the Tank Stance was treated more as just another mitigation c/d that you threw up for busters. The only one really with aggressive mitigation then was WAR with their sustain and that was better served through Deliverance. It's all different now, though.

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honestly, it feels the exact same with gimped damage, tanking got no more interesting or difficult other than usual undergeared shenanigans, just that we are now weaker but not any better or more interesting otherwise

I don't really consider what other tanks meld or gear towards because I'm not playing with them and it doesn't effect me - but to willfully gear towards something that slows progress down for really no good reason doesn't make sense to me. Tenacity is, as of right now, not as bad as originally thought but also not worth the trade off in DPS. There are no fights that aren't survivable without it and most of the big damage in this game comes from predicable tankbusters and telegraphed nukes and is easily prepared for and mitigated. In a good group, everyone is trying their best to do their job most efficiently - part of playing the tank roll in this game means helping out with damage output - you're not expected to be topping other dedicated DD's but you shouldn't be willfully ignoring it either.

There's really no legitimately good reason to try to not do as much as you can if you are easily mitigating the boss damage and holding threat. Being extra tanky in a fight where you are safely surviving hits and your healer is not struggling gains you nothing. If people want to play like it's their decision and I don't really care as long as it doesn't effect me but I don't have a ton of time to play during the week and I value my time when I do play and wouldn't want to wasted because instead of doing the optimal thing someone decided they would rather prove a point than actually better help the group. Honestly this has to be the only MMO I've ever played where people get indignant (to the point of willfully doing the opposite of what is best out of spite) if you suggest there is a better way to do things. The object of raids is to kill the boss - most groups trying to do this as quickly and efficiently as possible - bringing overkill mitigation or enmity to the table doesn't really help accomplish that.

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Originally Posted by Voormund

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The condescending tone continues.

You've apparently not been paying attention in these alledged "other MMOs" you've played. There are plenty of people who don't dedicate the time and research needed to 100% optimize. They get what they think is good and go with it.

People have been commenting on the effectiveness of Tenacity like it's written in stone. Its not. Its been shown to be somewhat effective. And in less than 1 week it may change greatly.

Just... Get of your high horse. Your idea of "optimal" may not be someone else's idea of optimal. You might enjoy bigger numbers while others enjoy maxing out mitigation.

Meta be damned - if you can complete the content then that counts as a win, regardless if that win arrives at 7 mins in, or 6.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

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Yea not to set your strawman on fire, but there's a world of difference between trying to optimize 100%, and just simply melding in a stat that is collectively believed to be slightly more useful than parry - I'm guessing there weren't a lot of people defending gearing for parry either? I don't optimize 100%, never claimed to, but I also take a least a little bit of time to see how I can get the most out of my gear to help the group before just slapping something on there and plugging my ears to what is realistically a better tradeoff. Tenacity is underwhelming as a main stat and doesn't scale nearly as well as Crit or DH (or even Det I believe) - you cannot argue that no matter how you feel on it's usefulness. In the long run - it is not going to be as effective without changes to the game. I'm not on a "high horse", I'm not claiming to be right all the time, but I would expect people to put at least the same amount of effort into trying to get the most out of their time as I do.

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Originally Posted by Voormund

just simply melding in a stat that is collectively believed to be slightly more useful than parry

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"Collectively believed" doesn't mean a thing. Given otherwise identical gear and performance the difference between a full Direct Hit melded tank and a full Tenacity melded tank is going to be about .5%. 10-15 DPS.
That's going to be far less noticeable than cutting off an extra 2.8% damage taken.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...o_stat_values/

Tenacity is both DPS and Damage Reduction, and it works out to be a fairly efficient use of melds. DPS won't be as high as it could be, but the extra damage reduction more than makes up for the small difference.

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

"Collectively believed" doesn't mean a thing. Given otherwise identical gear and performance the difference between a full Direct Hit melded tank and a full Tenacity melded tank is going to be about .5%. 10-15 DPS.
That's going to be far less noticeable than cutting off an extra 2.8% damage taken.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...o_stat_values/

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I would rather have an extra half a percent (hell even a quarter of a percent) of DPS that is at least going to go towards helping shorten a run than a wasted 2.8% mitigation that is very likely not going to make any difference in the fight. As the stat values go up DH and Crit only further the gap between Tenacity - if the extra 2.8% of mitigation in a fight where you are in no danger of dying already is worth it to you - by all means go for it. You cannot really argue that Tenacity isn't a mediocre stat which is only slightly more useful than initially believed to be.

When I build tank stats I do not think about "DPS" that isn't what I am there for, I am there to stand, take a beating and keep the mob/boss from looking at the squishies that are doing the damage.

I have never subscribed to have shit tonne of HP because the healers will be wasting more mana than they need to try keep you up, look at the Warriors/Dark Knights having to rely fully on HP builds and if for any reason their gear isn't up to scratch the healer is spending most of the fight playing a yoyo to keep them up.

I run my Paladin on a mixture of Determination and Tenacity atm, I have the older mentality from games such as WoW, TOR, FW, PWI were tanks literally were built as the name suggests.

This is how I run myself, I dont follow meta, when they design these dungeons they dont have a meta in mind, they create content for everyone with some iota of skill to complete them. And Tanks will always be in the two base camps of high HP or high Defence rating.

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Originally Posted by Voormund

Yea not to set your strawman on fire, but ...

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Don't try to change the subject - my statement wasn't a Strawman argument as it directly references your gripe with how tanks meld.

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Originally Posted by Voormund

melding in a stat that is collectively believed to be slightly more useful than parry

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Again, you and others assume the usefulness of Tenacity without truly knowing it's weights. Random people on the internet have made assumptions based on data they collected, but it's not written in stone.

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Originally Posted by Voormund

Tenacity is underwhelming as a main stat and doesn't scale nearly as well as Crit or DH (or even Det I believe) - you cannot argue that no matter how you feel on it's usefulness.

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You keep saying this, but it's simply not true - How are those other stats "more useful"? Objectively to you they are because they do what exactly? Cause a mob to die seconds faster? A boss to die a seconds faster over minutes of playtime? What you are describing is SUBJECTIVELY better in your opinion. A tank player melding Tenacity may ease a healer's time or allow for possible mistakes, all while increasing the tank's damage some to boot.. again, SUBECTIVELY good things that will benefit a party.

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Originally Posted by Voormund

but I would expect people to put at least the same amount of effort into trying to get the most out of their time as I do.

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Don't count on it - it hasn't been, and won't be, that way in this MMO or any other. There will always be those that don't bother to do the research into secondary stats outside of the game. FFXIV is particularly bad because you can't actually SEE IN GAME how these stats actually affect your character on the sheet. You literally have to crunch numbers to figure it out.

You're essentially arguing that all tanks should follow this alleged META. I'm saying so long as tanks do what's needed and the result is victory for everyone, does it really matter?

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Originally Posted by Voormund

You cannot really argue that Tenacity is a mediocre stat which is only slightly more useful than initially believed to be.

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Initially believed? Are we going to go by the collective again? "To be basically the same exact thing as Parry." "To be avoided like the plague." "LOL 1000 points to get 1%."
The reality? Provides comparable DPS to the "best" stat that only the best of the best will ever be able to provide even the slightest actual notable gap while also providing mitigation that Parry couldn't even dream of.

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Originally Posted by Klongol

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Turning me criticizing the usefulness of one stat versus another into a melodramatic comment insinuating that I was asking for 100% optimization is the definition of a strawman. That wasn't what I said at all yet I'm the one changing the subject? Yea, you know what, I'm to the point where I honestly don't care anymore. Play whatever way you want, this is giant waste of time arguing facts with someone who just wants to talk about objectivity. Tenacity will only continue to be a worse stat as time goes on, if you're happy with that more power to you. It doesn't affect me at all and it's really not worth my time to debate it.

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Originally Posted by Voormund

Turning me criticizing the usefulness of one stat versus another into a melodramatic comment insinuating that I was asking for 100% optimization is the definition of a strawman. That wasn't what I said at all yet I'm the one changing the subject? Yea, you know what, I'm to the point where I honestly don't care anymore. Play whatever way you want, this is giant waste of time arguing facts with someone who just wants to talk about objectivity. Tenacity will only continue to be a worse stat as time goes on, if you're happy with that more power to you.

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Glad we got this straightened out.

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Originally Posted by Sanctify

It seems like every tank i come across has tenacity melds. To this I have two questions. What are you smoking? And can i have some?

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i think you're doing your melds wrong

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

I've been playing since the start of HW, but it was never anything more than casual, as back then, I was raiding in WoW. I'm just now starting to get deeper into the game as of late as, once my life finally calms down after my move, I want to slot myself into a static.

Because I come from WoW, I do have a more traditional philosophy on tanking, especially with how Blizzard has been handling tanking the past few expansions with active mitigation, or "do more to prevent more". That's why I like paladin so much, because it incentivizes use of Holy Spirit while tanking to give you more mitigation through Sheltron.

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That's great. But, you should know that there's a good chance the SB meta will again steer tanks out of tank stance after getting initial hate.

I obviously can't see the future, but it seems like a solid bet.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

That's great. But, you should know that there's a good chance the SB meta will again steer tanks out of tank stance after getting initial hate.

I obviously can't see the future, but it seems like a solid bet.

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With Shirk around things will need to hit like a train for that to not be the case in any organized group. So, yeah, a pretty good bet.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

That's great. But, you should know that there's a good chance the SB meta will again steer tanks out of tank stance after getting initial hate.

I obviously can't see the future, but it seems like a solid bet.

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Well then.

Fuck the meta.

Great, glad that's settled, where do we go from here?

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Well then.

Fuck the meta.

Great, glad that's settled, where do we go from here?

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Full circle, as it turns out. ;) Back to the point of there being a strong sentiment among the playerbase that optimized play is for the birds, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

Well then.

Fuck the meta.

Great, glad that's settled, where do we go from here?

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Too right, players need to get the META idea out of their noggins and start playing the game like intelligent players they are, no wonder some players are put off from the class, when you have YouTubers telling them "meta this, meta that and meta other" .... No - learn the fights, have fun and deal with the wipes! It is called progression for a reason.

If someone put Vitality in all their gear (if possible) then fine, if someone sticks Determination in all their meld slots, then fine again. It isn't up to me, you or anyone including those that sit behind a camera to tell you how you should play you character, if you are able to complete a dungeon against the grain of it all then good for you! Be unique in a game that pigeonholes everything.

Kindda miss actual Talent trees

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

Wasn't it proven that stacking 1k-1.5k tenacity results in 5% less damage recieved and 5% more damage dealt or something like that? Not exactly stellar but far from worthless.

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It was proven that you deal 1% more dmg at 1.7k tenacity, around 1% less dmg taken and the increased healing received was extremely terrible, its a garbage stat.

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

It was proven that you deal 1% more dmg at 1.7k tenacity, around 1% less dmg taken and the increased healing received was extremely terrible, its a garbage stat.

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"Proven". No, it's closer to 1% output and reduction for 180 points, not nearly 2000.

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Originally Posted by GDFletcher

Too right, players need to get the META idea out of their noggins and start playing the game like intelligent players they are, no wonder some players are put off from the class, when you have YouTubers telling them "meta this, meta that and meta other" .... No - learn the fights, have fun and deal with the wipes! It is called progression for a reason.

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Oh man, progression. I honestly don't see that term a lot in FF14. I'm willing to admit there might be bias, but a lot of the mentality I've seen in this game is based on "I get it now now now." Hell, this current DPS-based meta is revolved around the idea that we need to do less progression and more pushing our tanks and healers to DPS more and more; you can tell that the fights weren't designed around this idea that everyone needs to push maximum DPS or else you don't get a slot, that was a mentality pushed by the highest echelons of the game and adopted by a bunch of meta-worshiping children.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Full circle, as it turns out. ;) Back to the point of there being a strong sentiment among the playerbase that optimized play is for the birds, so to speak.

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That sentiment stems from the behavior exhibited by self proclaimed "Metagamers" who make hostile play environments. I imagine they are being careful with tenacity ,and adjusting it slowly so tanks aren't over powered early on making the expansion content face roll easy.

Drugs are bad for you.

Honestly I feel like they should just remove the damage+ component and buff the damage mitigation component.

Sure, people will still push for damage+ 95% of the time, but at least it would have a bigger per-point impact. The current hybrid effect that it gives is awkward, which further makes it more useless.


One of the biggest issues with Parry was that it did nothing for magic damage.
Furthermore, bosses didn't hit hard enough to need to spec toward mitigating damage and cooldowns were/are the key way to mitigate damage.
This area actually touches on the "issue" of tanks wearing STR accessories at the moment - because you only need enough HP to survive. A bigger container doesn't actually make you take less damage - it just gives an inattentive healer more time to react.

If their goal is to confuse players with these strange substats, then they are doing a good job of that. I thought their goal was the exact opposite?

I am personally of the opinion that we need MORE substats that allow for wider levels of customization, even if this customization is an illusion (as there will always be an "optimal" BiS build).
I like the idea of tanks having the ability to jump into a DPS gearset for easier content, or switch to a damage mitigation / HP set for harder content or raids, however you could blame the current game design on this but there is no need for this - and DPS is the next best option.

So I am of the opinion that removing the damage+ side of Tenacity and focusing on the mitigation side would be a step in the right direction for this game.
It would not only "simplify" these stats for people that don't like to aim toward BiS, but it would apply a big enough per-point effect on an area of stats that we currently lack - mitigation.

The ability to actually have a stat to manage how much damage you take - and one that actually works to good effect, would be largely beneficial to the masses who find it difficult to heal a tank in some content in the game. On the flip side of this, it wouldn't stop the more skilled players from maximizing their ability to deal damage by pushing for higher damage stats.

More horizontal gearing options is something I absolutely encourage.

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As for the META argument...

95% of the playerbase shouldn't even worry too much about it. The meta is really for the 5% that push speed runs, world firsts, etc etc.
Playing optimally should definitely be encouraged, however if sacrificing damage for survivability helps your group clear content, then you should do that.

The meta is for players who are able to execute their job roles flawlessly or at least to a high level. Most groups don't do that. So the idea of forcing yourself into a meta of certain jobs / BiS options, is actually going to limit your success.

Groups run into problems when they focus too hard on playing around the meta of the 5%ers. Just stick to the stuff you know, and what works for your group. If that means stacking mitigation over damage as a main tank, then so be it.
(Though currently, Tenacity is just rubbish..)

It's funny that anyone thinks anything they meld on their tank (aside from STR on the accessories) *really* matters that much.