With all the negativity around war let's talk about the best part of 4.0!

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

I'm not seeing it at all but this specific topic is really a personal opinion so it's hard to say that you are wrong I guess.

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It is.. In a way. But with the way the beast gauge works compared to building stacks, I dare say you get maybe twice the IB usage as before? And, if you are going to use unchained, it's only 1 SP to restore the BG vs having to spend 7 gcds (or infuriate) to get 5 stacks back.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

It doesn't work like that. You can't go with what the healers say on this. It's largely psychological, they look at your HP, see a giant chunk of it missing, and think "ugh, if it was Paladin I'd have less to heal back".

But they don't take into account the fact that their heals do more when they use it in Warrior.

It's the same as Thrill of Battle. You use it when you get hit, it doesn't look or feel like you mitigated anything! You just see a huge chunk of your HP drop. Only after it fades and your HP resets, IF you pay attention you will see your HP is actually higher than what it would have been if you had taken the damage without Thrill.

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Their healing abilities don't heal for any more, though. Which is why you most often see this complaint from dungeon speedrunners, who tend to HoT at the start, and then just DPS with oGCD heals tossed in. Not only does a vital defensive for Warriors require uptime (Gauge) not generated by AoEing, it doesn't get as much out of all those skills.

Make Defiance quite simply increase the effect of ALL healing, and simply nerf Defiance-Equilibrium to compensate, and that thought would only cross the minds of those healing very poor Warriors (including those who don't prep gauge for the next pull).

Too the OP i applaud you for trying to make light of all of what SE has been doing but its a clear miss for tanks so far in this expansion even in this thread its turned into lets figure out how to fix this issue we have instead of looking at the good things in the game.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

Too the OP i applaud you for trying to make light of all of what SE has been doing but its a clear miss for tanks so far in this expansion even in this thread its turned into lets figure out how to fix this issue we have instead of looking at the good things in the game.

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Unfortunately so. People are very prone to complaining. War is "fine" in the sense that is functions and does its intended role. We're far from MCH levels of FUBAR as well. I'm actually a bit scared of what will happen if they make the biggest changes requested, which is remove gauge cost, make unchained/inner release not share a cd, and have onslaught not cost gauge... War will be kinda nuts. I'd honestly be fine with the gauge cost if it rounded up to the nearest 10 instead of being cut in half. Swapping into awkward numbers like 17 or 25 is annoying.

This is why im not sure what everyones problem is with WAR when it comes to loosing beast gauge when changing stances, IB is SO GOOD now, it got a potency buff and its a mini-rampart as OP said, and unchained is cheap as chips with usualyl enough beast gauge left over to use onsought to get back to the boss after a mechinc. Delivierence does feel clunky but i do think thats because the 5 fell cleaves was designed to be a meme more than anything. it also creates an extra layer of complexity in that if you know you have to switch stances soon for eg a tank buster, instead of complaining about the beast gauge loosing 50% just use up what you have and then switch for minimal losses, it defiantly feels more like you have to prepare for things and actually know the fight as WAR now instead of in 3.x where it was like "OOps gotta tank swap lel, better use my oGCD stance swap and just laugh it off".

Honestly though as they are right now is probably as balanced as tanks have ever been since the release of 3.0, that being said though its only marginally better and you have to wonder how they actually test balance changes internally because usually it seems a bit off the mark.

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Originally Posted by TheFanciestBard

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Yes it is unfortunate, but it being a forum its the best place to discuss that kind of thing. saying how great something is is probably better left for reddit as people may actually stay on topic and not veer off. and honestly with tanks how they have been for the past 2 years it does make me wonder why we're only getting this much discussion now regardless of the fact that WAR was massively overtuned in 3.x but the community mostly just went "this is fine" instead of speaking up.

I concurrr. Inner beest iz great. I mean you get glowy eyes en everding. Wait datz "inner release" you say. Lolz. So confusing cuz in the quest story glowy eyez always mean "innard beest."

But yah, losing guage switching to deeps stance so fun. Also grate iz onslaught. I mean it's so essential. How paladin even get by widowt it?

And the enemiddy on onslaught soo good. I like use it like 100 times every dungeon run to save healerz cuz I lose enmity all da time even with massive enemity boost to ovapowa and chop chops comboez.

And those times I lose enmiddy on bosses? Phew so glad I have onslaught!

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Also:

a.

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Nah its so funnnn... like building 100 rage, staring at 3 timers to align, switching to deeps, losing 50 guage, then you can choose... 4 Fell cleebs or 6 fell cleebs. 6 cleebs if u want to max deeps in da innard beest timer. 4 cleebs if yood rather have yir leg gnawed off by a qiqirn meateater den sit through 6 more globally kewldowns.

So engaging decision. So funnnn yah

Is defiance that stance that I might as well take off my hotbars?

I think we really need to Shake this thread Off, since the OP feels a lot more like trolling than having an actual conversation.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Is defiance that stance that I might as well take off my hotbars?

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No bozo! It's deliburanse! Just sit in dank stance all day cuz apparently hitting one cooldown after another and innard beest is soo good.

Forget about yir lebel 70 skill. Just yooz unchained and sit happy in dank stance.

But yoo say team ask yoo fir moor dps? Yoo tell dem too much trouble. Yoo only Mt from now on. And yoo sit in deviance onlee.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Yes I don't have an issue with being in defiance for the most part, it's just that by designing that aspect you're literally ignoring half your job and your brand new level 70 ability.

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It reminds me of old school WoW.
Go into Prot stance when tanking, and Zerk when soloing.

This seems to have been the goal. Bad design? No - just not what you're used to.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

It reminds me of old school WoW.
Go into Prot stance when tanking, and Zerk when soloing.

This seems to have been the goal. Bad design? No - just not what you're used to.

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Oh I remember back when we had to rely on Berserker Rage macros to avoid fears in raids. And Overpower being locked behind Battle Stance. And Recklessness being locked behind Berserker Stance. And Shield Wall and Shield Bash being locked behind Defensive Stance.

It's taken me back, to be honest. And I'm not bothered by it like some posters, since it's something I've already seen before. ^^

The bad outweigh the good ..
War is garbage compare to the competition .

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Is defiance that stance that I might as well take off my hotbars?

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Defiance? What's that? Last I checked the only stance WAR had was Deliverance.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Defiance? What's that? Last I checked the only stance WAR had was Deliverance.

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lol

Must be nice living in your fantasy world where the things you say actually make any sense.

What's the point of your obvious exaggerations?

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Originally Posted by Makeda

It reminds me of old school WoW.
Go into Prot stance when tanking, and Zerk when soloing.

This seems to have been the goal. Bad design? No - just not what you're used to.

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1. You don't know it was the goal.

2. When a fair amount of people call it clunky, stupid, the devs state that tuning will be incoming, and it's bad enough to the point where people literally aren't having fun with the class and it kills job utility, yeah people can call it bad design.

3. I can still think it's garbage. And XIV isn't WoW, it's not beholden to it. And I don't have to "get used to it" not to mention no amount of time will make me like how it is now.

4. Why couldn't you have just gotten used to HW style? bad design? No, just not what you're used to. See how dumb that logic is?

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

1. You don't know it was the goal.

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This boils down to seeing skills as situational vs the "skills have to be used all the time or they're worthless" mentality. You and others like you want to use all skills all the time. People like me, on the other hand, see that skills and abilities were split between stances that are context-sensitive (Deliverancecat form iz 4 fite, Defiancebear form iz 4 tnak). I'd actually want to ask Yoshida or the devs about this, though to your credit it's unlikely they'd "side" with the latter, as that would be a blatant admission that they gave WAR an incomplete system through all of ARR.

That being said, seeing my distaste for stance swaps through HW and then seeing SE implement the WAR changes as they have, I admit I felt a little bit vindicated.

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2. When a fair amount of people call it clunky, stupid, the devs state that tuning will be incoming, and it's bad enough to the point where people literally aren't having fun with the class and it kills job utility, yeah people can call it bad design.

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This could go either way. For all we know, they might make full-timing Defiance more worthwhile. They could also go the other direction by reducing the penalty for changing stances.

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3. I can still think it's garbage.

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And that's fine. Just like I think stance dancing as it was done in HW screamed of being unintended and done for the wrong reasons. We're all allowed our opinions, after all.

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And XIV isn't WoW, it's not beholden to it.

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FFXIV has taken a LOT of inspiration from WoW systems and design. Pre-HW PLD is basically a prot warrior with access to Cure and Stoneskin. BLM is basically a fire mage with three elements instead of one. SMN saw a lot of elements from Warlocks. WAR and DRK are partially the result of feral druid and blood death knights being tossed into a blender and distributed in two separate cups. There's nothing wrong in noting similarities, much like there's nothing wrong in wanting to learn from your competition.

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4. Why couldn't you have just gotten used to HW style?

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Speaking for myself, forsaking the core of the tank role for the sake of deepz makes absolutely no sense. Some people may have fallen in love with the big numbers or the greater number of button presses, but not all of us heed that siren's song.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'm sorry, but bloodbath could never save your ass main tanking a savage raid. It synergized naturally with vengeance and OP spam to provide some additional sustain for dungeons, and that's about it. You'd occasionally see some nice returns on crit Fell Cleaves, but that's not Defiance tanking. If you weren't specifically saving it for a huge pull then it was just used on cd or paired with berserk+internal release. Never as an actual damage reduction cooldown (cuz it wasn't)

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Well your wrong, it saved me many times because it increased the hp recovery from innerbeast and storms path that much more. Your only looking at it from an "instant" standpoint. It was a mitigation over time aspect which would help in the event that a healer goes down or healer MP is getting low or any other critical situation where you are trying to lessen the heals burden, or my other skills were on cooldown to weave HP till they are ready again. In fights like the Royal Mangerei for example, it could have been extremely useful due to the nature of the fight with constant DPS output on tanks. Not every encounter with the skill is the same. I seem to disagree with you. Strongly feel warriors need their HP weave skill back.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

Strongly feel warriors need their HP weave skill back.

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I don't disagree with that, I miss bloodbath as much as anyone, I just don't let the loss of a relatively minor ability ruin my perception of Defiance. The addition of Rampart and that other new +parry cd (can't remember the name) more than make up for the difference in mitigation. So, the place where missing bloodbath hurts the most is giant dungeon pulls. As a side note, I don't know why the devs got rid of it for tanks, but I'd be interested to see what the actual returns would be at level 70 with "proper" lv70 gear. It could've been that the returns were deemed insignificant. I mean when you are getting crit auto attacks from bosses in the 20k+ range, it just doesn't seem to me that bloodbath would really do all that much to help compared to straight damage reduction, particularly when our attack power is handcuffed such as it is (intended to be).

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This boils down to seeing skills as situational vs the "skills have to be used all the time or they're worthless" mentality. You and others like you want to use all skills all the time. People like me, on the other hand, see that skills and abilities were split between stances that are context-sensitive (Deliverancecat form iz 4 fite, Defiancebear form iz 4 tnak). I'd actually want to ask Yoshida or the devs about this, though to your credit it's unlikely they'd "side" with the latter, as that would be a blatant admission that they gave WAR an incomplete system through all of ARR.

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You're right, I do want to use all the skills the class has. I want to use Defiance and Deliverance and I want to be able to switch when it makes sense.

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That being said, seeing my distaste for stance swaps through HW and then seeing SE implement the WAR changes as they have, I admit I felt a little bit vindicated. This could go either way. For all we know, they might make full-timing Defiance more worthwhile. They could also go the other direction by reducing the penalty for changing stances.

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This would make sense if literally our entire job wasn't stance based unlike every other job in the entire game. I would argue they did not vindicate you because they doubled down on stance specific abilities and only messed up in the delivery.

There is literally no other explanation for having 10 abilities that are stance specific other then they wanted us to use both of them frequently. (Reinforced by our 70 ability being a stance specific non utility move) No other class in the game works the way we do.

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And that's fine. Just like I think stance dancing as it was done in HW screamed of being unintended and done for the wrong reasons. We're all allowed our opinions, after all.

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If that was the case, as I said earlier they would have removed abillites being stance specific. They didn't, they continued with stance specific moves. Upheaval even does more damage in defiance.

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There's nothing wrong in noting similarities, much like there's nothing wrong in wanting to learn from your competition.

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To be fair, I didn't say it was wrong nor did I ever say that XIV was unique. I said it wasn't beholden to WoW. A system might be similar or be inspired by WoW but that doesn't mean the final result has to follow the exact same path.

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Speaking for myself, forsaking the core of the tank role for the sake of deepz makes absolutely no sense. Some people may have fallen in love with the big numbers or the greater number of button presses, but not all of us heed that siren's song.

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I never once forsaked the core ideal of a tank no matter what stance I was in and I'm honestly offended that you would ever think that just because some people care about dps that you would assume we don't care about tanking. You can tank in defiance and get the job done, great. I can tank no matter the stance and get the job done. Literally no difference except one has more dps and takes more skill.

More then anything I idolized the literal definition of Maurader and Warrior SE gave us in lore.

You don't like this dps talk? Then tell SE to change the lore so that we are not beserkers wading in the middle of every fight destroying everything in our path while coming out with barely a scratch. Tell SE to remove Holy Spirit, Bloodspiller, royal authority, dark side for combos, fell cleave, goring blade, change Requiescat entirely, tell them to STOP giving WAR dps stance only abilities, and rework the entire class so half it's job abillites are not the dps stance, and to completely remove inner beast our level 70 showcase abillity from the game because that is dps only.

Because THEY decided to do that. You want to do nothing but spam inner beast? That's great. Other people don't and thankfully others agree with me.

The great thing about my way is that if you just want to only tank and don't care about DPS, that's something you can do. And others who want to do more have the choice to do more.

The problem with your way is that it only benefits you.

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Originally Posted by VenKitsune

and honestly with tanks how they have been for the past 2 years it does make me wonder why we're only getting this much discussion now regardless of the fact that WAR was massively overtuned in 3.x but the community mostly just went "this is fine" instead of speaking up.

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Nooo. This is an old discussion. I think eventually it was just accepted by virtue of no other options lol.

What I'd be interested to see - if PLD dps was a bit lower, would they be on here ranting and raving about how they need their dps buffed? Or would the community just have accepted it as such. What if War still had the highest DPS, even with all the clunkiness, I bet half the people on here giving their feedback wouldn't be saying a word.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

What if War still had the highest DPS, even with all the clunkiness, I bet half the people on here giving their feedback wouldn't be saying a word.

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Speak for yourself.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

What I'd be interested to see - if PLD dps was a bit lower, would they be on here ranting and raving about how they need their dps buffed? Or would the community just have accepted it as such. What if War still had the highest DPS, even with all the clunkiness, I bet half the people on here giving their feedback wouldn't be saying a word.

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Im not complaining because WAR isnt tank DPS king anymore. I am complaining because what SqEx did with the class is such a huge change in the core gameplay of war that, to me, it is simply not fun anymore, and because the tank balance is so completely out of whack that I feel like the people responsible for the new skills have no idea of their own game.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Speak for yourself.

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Offended by a thought experiment? Ok then

Why is there such a disparity between people who accept the changes for what they are vs people who want the fluidity of 3.X warrior back?

The most common thread in the disparity is mainly over dps. Those who are mostly in agreement with the changes are generally people who seem to value mitigation > dps. Those who mostly want the fluidity back are generally advocates of aggressive tanking. But that's just my observation.

I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong, I'm simply making the observation and wondering (and I suppose predicting) what the reactions would be if the situation was different.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The most common thread in the disparity is mainly over dps. Those who are mostly in agreement with the changes are generally people who seem to value mitigation > dps. Those who mostly want the fluidity back are generally advocates of aggressive tanking. But that's just my observation.

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Can't speak for anyone else, but my main concern is that PLD has roughly equal damage to everyone else, roughly equal mitigation, and tons more utility. I actually only think DPS needs a tiny tweak for everyone and DRK could use some other small defensive CD (TBN was a good addition tho). But the really big thing that needs to be looked into is the utility, because if everyone's equal in the other two areas then having one tank that excels in the 3rd makes them, y'know, OP. It's a tricky situation to balance, but I'm of the belief that making WAR the "offensive tank", PLD the "defensive tank", and DRK the "in-between" would be a balance nightmare so I hope they steer away from that with the balancing in this expansion.

I'm not sure about fluidity but alot of people enjoyed actively switching tank stances in battle and it was not all about DPS. Stance dancing was a form of "Pushing it to the limit" for them to see just how far they could take it. Now that SE is actively punishing the stance dancing, people don't know if they should anymore. Losing half the beast gauge over and over again is a pretty hefty loss.

Part of the DPS changes brought a smaller gap between pld and the other 2 tanks. Since all tanks are doing a little bit less damage, the gap has closed somewhat cause its relative. The smaller the gap between pld vs DRK and WAR, the more pld will get choosed cause it brings more than just DPS to the table. PLD has a much stronger survivability currently than WAR in my experience as well.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I'm not sure about fluidity but alot of people enjoyed actively switching tank stances in battle and it was not all about DPS. Stance dancing was a form of "Pushing it to the limit" for them to see just how far they could take it. Now that SE is actively punishing the stance dancing, people don't know if they should anymore. Losing half the beast gauge over and over again is a pretty hefty loss.

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I.E., aggressive tanking.

It's fairly obvious that SE intended to decrease tank damage output. From the locking of accessories to removal of abilities like Internal Release to the changing of the damage formula itself. The addition of a "cost" for swapping stances is being perceived as punishment, but in reality it's congruent with the additional changes they made.

Additionally, the fact remains that it's possible to swap stances for no cost. That hasn't stopped anyone from complaining about it. Why is that?

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Additionally, the fact remains that it's possible to swap stances for no cost. That hasn't stopped anyone from complaining about it. Why is that?

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Possible, yes. But you lose a lot in doing so. It would require you to spend all that you've built in tank stance, and start from zero when you do it.

If Warriors only lost half their gauge when they went into Defiance, then I might START to agree with you. Because Dark Knights and Paladins don't get a huge potential DPS loss when they change from tank stance to damage stance.

It's not fun at all starting a fight in Defiance, not being able to use Unchained right away, or even AT ALL because it means sacrificing Inner Release. Not to mention it's useless to use Infuriate because since you're planning on emptying your gauge before swapping, it means you'd have to start from 0 unless you save it.

So Warriors who tank are basically screwed either way, forced stay in Defiance with no real incentive to ever go into Deliverance. This is what people are complaining about.

If you're still having trouble understanding the issue at hand, try to imagine if Paladins and Dark Knights lost half their mana whenever they switched stances, and what that would do to their playstyle. It's pretty much exactly the same thing.

If they fixed it so that you only lost half your beast gauge when going from Deliverance to Defiance, I believe the majority of people would be at peace.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Additionally, the fact remains that it's possible to swap stances for no cost. That hasn't stopped anyone from complaining about it. Why is that?

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My main annoyance w/ it is in situations where I haven't planned to switch to Defiance but need to for an Equil cuz things went haywire, and because I switched at 30/50/etc I now have X5 gauge. Which, at my current level, is only possible to get rid of if I completely over-cap my gauge. Then when I switch back it becomes X3 gauge and even if I had IR I can't get rid of that without just over-capping. It's also annoying that it nerfs my damage potential, but only nerfs PLD's mitigation potential, but I'm more just frustrated that I've got this 5 extra gauge I can't do anything with. It's not necessarily the end of the world but it'd be better if it was changed to something less clunky.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Possible, yes. But you lose a lot in doing so. It would require you to spend all that you've built in tank stance, and start from zero when you do it.

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I'd actually argue you lose more by not dumping gauge before a swap. Why would you just throw that gauge in the trash instead using it on an ability? I just barely got caught up on ilvl to start running Omega on Monday so I haven't tried the ex's yet, but I've had zero issue dumping gauge before tank/stance swaps in v4.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

If Warriors only lost half their gauge when they went into Defiance, then I might START to agree with you. Because Dark Knights and Paladins don't get a huge potential DPS loss when they change from tank stance to damage stance.

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So you're OK with a cost when it doesn't come at an expense to your dps. Again confirming my opinion that the major problem people have with the changes is mainly because it's reduces their dps.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

It's not fun at all starting a fight in Defiance, not being able to use Unchained right away, or even AT ALL because it means sacrificing Inner Release. Not to mention it's useless to use Infuriate because since you're planning on emptying your gauge before swapping, it means you'd have to start from 0 unless you save it.

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I've not had this problem. See, I just use unchained in Defiance, and if I'm able to switch to Deliverance at some point I use Inner Release when it's up. I guess I'm just a bad tank that makes it work somehow. The only complaint I have about Infuriate is the trait is kind of useless since you're mainly only saving it for berserk windows. Great idea, but it doesn't really make it any more useful.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

So Warriors who tank are basically screwed either way, forced stay in Defiance with no real incentive to ever go into Deliverance. This is what people are complaining about.

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Or the other way around. Except there doesn't really seem to be any complaints about staying in Deliverance the whole time.. Hmm

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

If you're still having trouble understanding the issue at hand, try to imagine if Paladins and Dark Knights lost half their mana whenever they switched stances. It's pretty much exactly the same thing.

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I'm pretty sure I understand the situation quite clearly. The difference is I still have a lot of fun playing warrior because I'm not attached to 3.X meta.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

My main annoyance w/ it is in situations where I haven't planned to switch to Defiance but need to for an Equil cuz things went haywire, and because I switched at 30/50/etc I now have X5 gauge. Which, at my current level, is only possible to get rid of if I completely over-cap my gauge. Then when I switch back it becomes X3 gauge and even if I had IR I can't get rid of that without just over-capping. It's also annoying that it nerfs my damage potential, but only nerfs PLD's mitigation potential, but I'm more just frustrated that I've got this 5 extra gauge I can't do anything with. It's not necessarily the end of the world but it'd be better if it was changed to something less clunky.

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I agree that if they fix anything with the cost to swap it should be to fix the odd quantities of gauge left over. That's absolutely goofy, and I can't, in any way, find justification for it.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

That's absolutely goofy, and I can't, in any way, find justification for it.

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That's strange, I think the same about your posts as well.

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I'm pretty sure I understand the situation quite clearly. The difference is I still have a lot of fun playing warrior because I'm not attached to 3.X meta.

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Well some people have lower standards.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Well some people have lower standards.

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Clearly. When you can no longer make an argument and have to resort to insults, the standards are getting quite low.

And here I was being a fan of your eloquently written feedback thread.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I.E., aggressive tanking.

It's fairly obvious that SE intended to decrease tank damage output. From the locking of accessories to removal of abilities like Internal Release to the changing of the damage formula itself. The addition of a "cost" for swapping stances is being perceived as punishment, but in reality it's congruent with the additional changes they made.

Additionally, the fact remains that it's possible to swap stances for no cost. That hasn't stopped anyone from complaining about it. Why is that?

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You can call it whatever you want, that doesn't change the fact that some people enjoyed it and now its gone or that some people are not satisfied with defiance in comparison to its deliverance counterpart. Ask me if I'd rather Main tank or Off tank and I'll tell you off tank every time cause I don't feel as though I could do nearly as well as a paladin in that slot with the current tanks. Our off tank dps output kit is leaps and bounds better than our current main tank kit. Since off tank is a glorified dps in most fights other than critical situations or mechanics, Deliverance is the way to go currently for me so I don't have to switch stances very often if at all to minimize backlash of beastgauge loss. Is that a punishment? Maybe, maybe not but it will affect how I decide to play warrior, and that's just how it is. Different perception I suppose.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Those who mostly want the fluidity back are generally advocates of aggressive tanking.

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I was an advocate of aggressive tanking throughout ARR+HW. However I quit WAR partway through HW because the job had devolved to such a degree that ARR PLD felt infinitely more engaging to play, with minimal thought or consideration for planning ahead beyond 'Lets pop a defensive buff where it would be completely useless except it arbitrarily gives a free stack!' HW WAR is one I'm glad to see go.

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

You can call it whatever you want, that doesn't change the fact that some people enjoyed it and now its gone or that some people are not satisfied with defiance in comparison to its deliverance counterpart. Ask me if I'd rather Main tank or Off tank and I'll tell you off tank every time cause I don't feel as though I could do nearly as well as a paladin in that slot with the current tanks. Our off tank dps output kit is leaps and bounds better than our current main tank kit. Since off tank is a glorified dps in most fights other than critical situations or mechanics, Deliverance is the way to go currently for me so I don't have to switch stances very often if at all to minimize backlash of beastgauge loss. Is that a punishment? Maybe, maybe not but it will affect how I decide to play warrior, and that's just how it is. Different perception I suppose.

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I don't disagree with you there. Every 8-man I enter I start out deliverance, and nearly half of them I've ended up MT because the pld died at some point. Dead serious lol. So you should definitely feel confident you can do as well as a paladin in that slot (at least for now) :D

I do have to disagree slightly on the kits though. I mean, Defiance itself is an old kit. Outside of a few adjustments here and there it's been basically the same since 2.0 launch. Deliverance is the shiny, (fairly) new hotrod. I think they made Defiance a lot better with beast gauge, as I mentioned in a prior comment you can get at least twice the IB/SC usage, the cost for unchained is restored in 1 gcd instead of 7 (or Infuriate). Is deliverance leaps and bounds better than our defiance kit? I mean, they're pretty much the exact same moves just added damage. And really, you don't get to benefit all that much from extra gauge building like you do in Defiance because it's very strict about maxing out berserk windows. Just from my experience I can't say that deliverance is better for OT than Defiance is for MT, they both feel really good individually. They just aren't working very well together at the moment.

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Originally Posted by WayofTime

I think we really need to Shake this thread Off, since the OP feels a lot more like trolling than having an actual conversation.

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What have I said that's trolling at all? I just wanted to have some positivity on this forum for a part of warrior I'm enjoying and feel was well done in the xpac.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Clearly. When you can no longer make an argument and have to resort to insults, the standards are getting quite low.

And here I was being a fan of your eloquently written feedback thread.

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Well I was joking (add a smiley face to the end of my sentences and you'll see the context of the post change entirely)

If I actually didn't care for what you said, I'd have blocked you or something. There's a reason why I kept responding to you and it's because I liked arguing with you.

Apologies for the misunderstanding, I'm used to being able to tease people without using emotes to denote that I'm just joking around but those people know me well whereas I am a newcomer here.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Stuff

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I had a paragraph dedicated to the first part of your post. I'll sum it up by saying that we disagree on how we approach tanking. Might be that stances as I know them entirely rely on context-sensitive skills, and switching for the sake of using skills meant death (a pre-WoD druid would be insane to switch out of bear form just because they wanted to use Rake or cat form Mangle, for example; they'd also be dead within 3 seconds). Hence why I'm not bothered by Fel Cleave or Inner Release being inaccessible to me while tanking. Knowing they'll be there for me to use after the tank swap or when my target dies is enough for me.

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You don't like this dps talk? Then tell SE to change the lore so that we are not beserkers wading in the middle of every fight destroying everything in our path while coming out with barely a scratch.

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Except we're not berserkers. We're explicitly told that going berserk is a bad thing. Over and over. WAR tap into the inner beast, that much is true, but you're not biting your shield and running into the fray naked to swing until your body breaks down. The questline is about redirecting aggression towards a useful purpose (defending others), and not letting your emotions/rage/temper get the better of you.

As a side note, I've argued in the past that instead of drains or self heals, WAR's mitigation style should focused on ignoring damage (stoneskin effects) to show that the beast feels no pain. That would actually fit our WAR quite well.

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Tell SE to remove Holy Spirit, Bloodspiller, royal authority, dark side for combos, fell cleave, goring blade, change Requiescat entirely

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As I said in another thread, the skills that you mention are fillers and things that largely round out rotations and other systems. Bloodspiller is there as the single-target counterpart to Quietus, both of which exist to consume blood gauge (because without it you'd have new Delirium with its 2-minute cooldown). They could have given DRK defensive cooldowns that consumes gauge, but the devs chose to design the entire DRK mitigation system around TBN.

Requiescat is there because they need to give the PLD incentive to value MP restoration from Riot Blade/Sheltron. Goring Blade and Royal Authority are there to complete a PLD combo and to answer the complaints that all PLD had was Halone at lv50. Funnily enough, Holy Spirit generating 20 Oath gauge is an outright bribe to get tanking PLDs to stay in Shield Oath.

The reason we didn't get more enmity skills is because we're limited to the enmity combos, pull ranged move, and enmity AoE; adding anything there would require removing something we already have, at which point we gain nothing new. Defensive cooldowns we arguably have aplenty, and you don't want to give any tank too many cooldowns because that creates other issues. So what we're left with is damage skills and abilities to justify us getting new systems (like the new gauges everyone has received with SB).

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tell them to STOP giving WAR dps stance only abilities, and rework the entire class so half it's job abillites are not the dps stance, and to completely remove inner beast our level 70 showcase abillity from the game because that is dps only.

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Personally, they should rebuild the whole class. I've said it in your thread about WAR, but if you design WAR around actual stance dancing to reach their max potential (as long as it's mathematically the same as a full-time Shield Oath PLD when tanking), I'd have no problems with it. I'd even encourage stances having a 2.5s cooldown and capping transferred gauge between stances at 75.

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The great thing about my way is that if you just want to only tank and don't care about DPS, that's something you can do. And others who want to do more have the choice to do more.

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Except that if your way proves to be mathematically better, then that's what will be expected of everyone, which is basically what happened in HW. WAR was able to inflate expected tank DPS, and as a result DRK and PLD tried to follow suit. Both discovered they couldn't do it as well because dropping stances also stopped combos, on top of being on the GCD and costing resources. Then I started seeing people claim PLD and DRK were flawed for things that are par for the course when it comes to stances.

As they say, shit rolls downhill.

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Except we're not berserkers. We're explicitly told that going berserk is a bad thing. Over and over. WAR tap into the inner beast, that much is true, but you're not biting your shield and running into the fray naked to swing until your body breaks down. The questline is about redirecting aggression towards a useful purpose (defending others), and not letting your emotions/rage/temper get the better of you.

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I think you're misunderstanding.

I'm talking about the playstyle of being aggressive and self healing and all that. Like in other games were the similar class is the one that jumps into the hordes of enemies with an axe and starts swinging. That's how I felt before and it's not how I feel now, I feel very passive. It's kind of hard to explain but they way they described being this presence on the battlefield destroying all before you while walking out with barely a scratch...it's just so...passive now.

Like I have a charge but I never charge into battle with it. I don't heal up from dealing damage that much anymore. I just don't feel fluid, I feel clunky and reactive rather then fluid and proactive.

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As I said in another thread, the skills that you mention are fillers and things that largely round out rotations and other systems. Bloodspiller is there as the single-target counterpart to Quietus, both of which exist to consume blood gauge (because without it you'd have new Delirium with its 2-minute cooldown). They could have given DRK defensive cooldowns that consumes gauge, but the devs chose to design the entire DRK mitigation system around TBN.

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That just proves me right on how much more punishing stance switching is to WAR though since none of those similar skills are "fillers" for WAR. The fact that the most crucial skill that DRK is literally designed around right now doesn't' even use the gauge (if it breaks, it actually gives gauge) and is further proof that DRK is less affected by stance switching since it can restore MP with a single combo (and DRK loses no gauge for switching or even turning of stances). PLD is literally the class least affected by stance switching so I'm not even going to go there.

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Requiescat is there because they need to give the PLD incentive to value MP restoration from Riot Blade/Sheltron. Goring Blade and Royal Authority are there to complete a PLD combo and to answer the complaints that all PLD had was Halone at lv50. Funnily enough, Holy Spirit generating 20 Oath gauge is an outright bribe to get tanking PLDs to stay in Shield Oath.

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I see what you are getting at and it's a good point but I don't think why they were added has much merit. It's how they actually work with the job right now that matters. And the fact is it's not stance specific therefore it's another advantage over the stance specific WAR that gives them more flexibility and freedom as opposed to the highly punishing and strict WAR.

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Except that if your way proves to be mathematically better, then that's what will be expected of everyone, which is basically what happened in HW.

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Everyone has a choice and lastly it was not expected of everyone. Even as an exaggeration to make a point it's just factually untrue. Someone parsed a raid I did a while back when I did it for the first time and I was very low on the totem pole of damage. Nobody cared. Nobody cared that this WAR wasn't in the top 10% of dps. We finished it and they said I did a great job despite them all being hardcore raiders that I never met again.

Sure some people act like it, but if you compare the number of people who voice that in game vs the number who never say a damn thing...it's not a good ratio.

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Then I started seeing people claim PLD and DRK were flawed for things that are par for the course when it comes to stances.

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Then you should know that reversing the situation wouldn't make things better. Which kind of goes in hand with you saying the class needs to be redesigned, which I disagree with. All WAR needs is some changes and removal of stance penalty.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

I just don't feel fluid, I feel clunky and reactive rather then fluid and proactive.

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I just want to point out there are slight contradictions in your claim here. Self-healing is a reactive playstyle - you don't heal first then take the damage - it's not proactive damage mitigation. It's been mentioned multiple times by players on both sides of the argument that with the penalties and Berkserk windows such as they are you really have to be planning ~5 gcds in advance - this would be considered a proactive playstyle. As for the clunkiness, I'm in general agreement that it's clunky if stuff starts going bad and you need to take over, but again this is a reactionary adaptation to the situation. However if you're able to plan advance tank/stance swap type stuff you are back to a proactive style to make that transition smooth, for example refreshing Eye, burning your cleaves or upheaval to dump gauge and prep a BB combo for a swap (HS (Defiance) > SS (voke) > BB).

It's clunky when you are forced to react to a situation, but it can be pretty smooth/fluid when you are able to properly prep

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I just want to point out there are slight contradictions in your claim here. Self-healing is a reactive playstyle - you don't heal first then take the damage - it's not proactive damage mitigation.

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No but it fits in the theme of a "berserker" archtype, you heal up as you deal damage you deal to others. That's part of the unstoppable juggernaut on the battlefield (aka berserker) stereotype commonly is in RPGs and such. Like Sion in League of Legends, lifesteal is a part of your sustain and what keeps you fighting.

I don't feel like that anymore. Honestly I feel like the self healing from Path may as well not even exist because BB is what made it really good.

A good example was today the healer died at 10% health on ala mhigo final boss.

If this was HW I would have gone "let's do this" and changed my rotation to be all about getting all the health I can because I KNEW I had a chance.

In SB, I went "crap" and knew that IB and SP would not be enough, I tried and spammed it as much as I could but I died anyways.

The point is, even if BB wouldn't have saved me, the reactions I had when the cards were on the table and we had one chance were completely differennt before I viewed it as a fun challenge, time to really show what this warrior is all about. Now it's just "well, do I just wipe now or try?"

It's hard to fully explain. It's a personal thing.

But that difference in how I react, it's critical to how I feel about warrior. More then damage, more then even utility. That awesome feeling I had was what I really loved about the class and it's completely gone now.

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However if you're able to plan advance tank/stance swap type stuff you are back to a proactive style to make that transition smooth, for example refreshing Eye, burning your cleaves or upheaval to dump gauge and prep a BB combo for a swap (HS (Defiance) > SS (voke) > BB).

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Yeah but I did the same thing in HW. If I was going to berserk or I was going to IB or I knew a move was coming or a swap of some kind. I knew what to do and reacted accordingly. It might mean saving stacks or a CD or applying a debuff/slash debuff.

I'm not any more proactive in SB, I just get punished more and so have to play a much stiffer and slower playstyle. To me using FC to "dump" gauge then swapping and doing 2-3 combos to build it back up is not smooth. Smooth is switching when I want, to adapt the situation on hand.

The former is just unnecessary work to accomplish what I did before. The latter is a fast, smooth, playstyle that rewards me for making full use of my entire suite of abilities because I'm not punished for trying to make full use of my job.

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It's clunky when you are forced to react to a situation, but it can be pretty smooth/fluid when you are able to properly prep

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But no other tank operates that way since they can use virtually every ability whenever they want. Yet none of them use the gauge as much as WAR. Why should we have to learn every fight better and "prep" when they can accomplish the same things as us whenever they want?