solution for VIT vs STR tank issue

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Originally Posted by Aurelius

Just trying to understand why tanks are having such a problem with this.

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I have myself all tank and healer classes 60+ and one reason why i want damage for tank/healer is if dps players not perform very well in current dungeons, you can atleast yourself speed up the run if you perform well yourself. During lvl 50 patch i have seen where one aoe pull take like two hallowed ground because none of dps classes know how to do dps and nobody did aoe damage. This is like biggest nightmare playing as tank. But if dps classes in your party can perform optimally i have no problem.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

Honestly it feels like the problem was that in HW tanks had to forego tank stances and push as much dps as possible for raid tier content and SE didn't like it.

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Yup, that's the only reason I can see as to why they undid the change. By switching back to STR, they cut our damage in half. So they don't us doing big Deeps, fine. At least make our secondary stat more worthwhile. Tenacity feels like it's killing me more than helping me...

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I have myself all tank and healer classes 60+ and one reason why i want damage for tank/healer is if dps players not perform very well in current dungeons, you can atleast yourself speed up the run if you perform well yourself. During lvl 50 patch i have seen where one aoe pull take like two hallowed ground because none of dps classes know how to do dps and nobody did aoe damage. This is like biggest nightmare playing as tank. But if dps classes in your party can perform optimally i have no problem.

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This. Like I get that this a team game, but when you use DF, you're basically rolling a die.

This is from TERA, but point still stands. I remember a few months ago, a friend who tanks on WAR was saying how he was doing more DPS than a Ninja in Xelphatol.

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Originally Posted by Ayerinn

You are right, they didn't ask to do as much damage as a DPS and that was not my point. If tanks cared about enmity then they would ask for higher enmity multipliers - not to do more damage to keep enmity. SE gave tanks more enmity - they should be happy but they are here asking for changes to tank damage while tanking...hmmmmm. You should not be concerned about your damage numbers while tanking only holding threat...yet, here we are talking about tweaking stats to give tanks more damage they don't need to fulfill their primary role.

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Because once you have enmity on the boss, what else is there to do but focus on damage? If the outgoing damage isn't going to kill you and aggro isn't an issue, damage is the next step to optimizing. They have fulfilled their primary role. What you're asking is they just be satisfied basically doing nothing but press a cooldown every time a buster goes out. That's a great way to ensure queue times become even worse as most people find just maintaining aggro boring.

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Originally Posted by Ayerinn

Hmm is it? I thought people were saying nearly 600 was 1%...was it bugged and they fixed it?

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well this is what i read from reddit, i m not sure about that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...city_datadump/

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

So change it back and make the new gear give less VIT. Problem Solved.

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Not sure this would help, as the fights are tuned to hit pretty hard.

On a sidenote: I simply MUST know where your sig comes from.

if you're a tank please to dont use STR.

I have seen low hitpoint warriors go down to 5000 hitpoints in less than a second at level 70. Please dont be this tank :(

I want to share a perspective just to clarify some points and ideologies that I think people are missing. In a raid environment damage is very important and everyone takes a role in contributing that damage, tanks and healers included.

Everyone is contributing to the same cause: completion of the raid instance! As such everyone wants to deal good damage, and do not like when they are nerfed. I personally do not understand the idea that tanks should be happy with just holding hate..as it's not particularly hard if that's your only objective. However, that's just my personal belief and is not my main point.

The most important to realize is that the role hurt the most by these changes is the off-tank, as it is not holding threat for the majority of the instance and is essentially a DPS with a DPS mentality. Their accessories are objectively useless for them, and will continue to be until they make accessories give damage. I just want you to consider that.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Not sure this would help, as the fights are tuned to hit pretty hard.

On a sidenote: I simply MUST know where your sig comes from.

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I just feel the PR response is just pure bs. This was clearly done to cut the damage from Tanks. I'm willing to accept the damage lost if I had something else in it's place. Also the Sig is from a scene in Dissidia 012 where Prishe gives WoL a name.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

Yeah, as it is, it seems like Crit or DH are better melds. It seems like they're leery about making gear affect your ability to tank? But I don't really understand. Making it reduce 10% of damage would be like having Storm's Path debuff again.

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I'd really like to see them use Tenacity a bit more effectively than Det and Crit, and also use traits to help rebalance some of the differences in tht tanks to let each shine in their own way. It's not the whole solution, but it is at least based on something specific to tanks.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I think it's sort of like if they want AP at a certain value (to scale with DPS), then HP will be higher than they want. My guess is they want tankbusters to take a certain percentage of a tank's HP.

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The problem with that theory is that our HP is already scaling with VIT but right now our AP isn't. It seems like the real issue is that tank dps was too high and they don't want to come out and just say they don't want tanks doing that much dps.

I feel like this is part of SE's plan to demolish the mass pull meta.

Because, yes, it IS easy to hold aggro on a small group, and you don't even need to think about it on a single boss, but when our tank AOE skills do little more than tickle enemies while our DPS players and healers need to go ham to kill them and keep the tank up, enmity starts flying. Ultimatum has a long ass cooldown, too.

Plus, once 4.1 hits and we start outgrowing verity and get content with higher iLVL's, tanks straight won't be able to enter content with the 270 gear on in every slot, and 4.2 would force them off entirely.

They need to think of something quick to give tanks the means to perform. Whether that's improving tenacity just adding STR to tank gear is beyond my expertise, but this is making a frustrating scenario for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius

Just trying to understand why tanks are having such a problem with this.

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If I understand correctly, the enmity problems are mostly at low levels, in early dungeons before tanks get their tanking stances and are essentially tanking 100% of the time in DPS mode. Both RDM and SAM get some high-potency skills at surprisingly early levels. Low-level tanking has been old hat for me for a long, long time, but recently I've actually had to, you know, TRY to hold hate when I wind up in parties with RDM or SAM, pre-level-30. A couple of flashes plus rotate enmity combo just doesn't cut it like it used to - I have to figure out which enemy the SAM or RDM is attacking and actually focus on it like I was an undergeared tanking newbie. I shudder to think what ACTUAL undergeared tanking newbies have to deal with! Hopefully they have a good healer.

As for the main topic, I really don't get what Yoshi P is on about. The way the game is constructed now, tanks are ALREADY stacking all the VIT they can, because they have NO CHOICE unless they use severely underleveled STR accessories (which is apparently not what tanks are supposed to do). VIT is the primary stat on every piece of gear a tank gets! If HP scaling is ever going to be a problem, it's ALREADY going to be a problem, because tanks can't help but to pile on the VIT. Having VIT also be our DPS stat won't push us past some HP scaling threshhold, because we are unable to stack VIT any further than already appears naturally on our gear. It's bewildering, and indicates that Yoshi P either has a very poor grasp of materia stat caps, or there's a mistranslation somewhere...

Or perhaps, newer endgame gear DOES allow for additional VIT melding? I'll admit, I haven't started picking up Tome gear and whatever, so I don't know if VIT can be stacked further.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

The problem with that theory is that our HP is already scaling with VIT but right now our AP isn't. It seems like the real issue is that tank dps was too high and they don't want to come out and just say they don't want tanks doing that much dps.

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I mean, you might be right. I'm just basing it on what was said. But also the thing is VIT has always scaled with HP, so they wouldn't change that unless it was really necessary. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that it's difficult to scale two variables independently when they're dependent on one variable.

The reason I'm not quite sure about that theory is because they gave healers the ability to DPS more easily, so why wouldn't they want tanks doing DPS when they're okay with healers doing DPS.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

The reason I'm not quite sure about that theory is because they gave healers the ability to DPS more easily, so why wouldn't they want tanks doing DPS when they're okay with healers doing DPS.

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Because healers AREN'T able to DPS more easily. Baddies are hitting much harder now, forcing us to focus far more time on healing. The only deal is we aren't stance dancing cleric to maximize our outputs.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Because healers AREN'T able to DPS more easily. Baddies are hitting much harder now, forcing us to focus far more time on healing. The only deal is we aren't stance dancing cleric to maximize our outputs.

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You do have a point. Stuff does hit harder now. I guess my point was they removed cleric stance which sort of helped because some healers wouldn't DPS just because cleric stance would act stupid sometimes. But maybe he's right that they don't want tanks doing DPS. It is kind of weird they made healer DPS more fluid but made stance dancing really clunky on WAR.

Not a tank, but from the original post the problem is that Tanks are having a hard time generating enmity? Why not just increase the enmity generation on the skills themselves? Or on fending gear add something like +10 enmity generation, or something.

I hold aggro easily, i don't know if you guys SUCK at tanking, but you might want to git gud and upgrade your weapon even if it isn't BiS. Weapon Dmg > BiS Scrub. Weapon should always be the priority when gearing a tank, with left side close second and right side last. I see too many noob gearing the right side first, which are the main people that usually struggle with enmity.

Bye :).

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

I hold aggro easily, i don't know if you guys SUCK at tanking, but you might want to git gud and upgrade your weapon even if it isn't BiS. Weapon Dmg > BiS Scrub. Weapon should always be the priority when gearing a tank, with left side close second and right side last. I see too many noob gearing the right side first, which are the main people that usually struggle with enmity.

Bye :).

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if they dont do anything to scale enmity/damage done, in your fending accessories, good luck holding hate by 4.4, while dps and healers main stat keeps going up via the right side gear. Ifyou dont think this will matter, how much more damage are tanks getting with level 60 accessories?

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

I hold aggro easily, i don't know if you guys SUCK at tanking, but you might want to git gud and upgrade your weapon even if it isn't BiS. Weapon Dmg > BiS Scrub. Weapon should always be the priority when gearing a tank, with left side close second and right side last. I see too many noob gearing the right side first, which are the main people that usually struggle with enmity.

Bye :).

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I have to agree with that. Always upgrade weapon, chest, legs, hands, feet, head, belt, and then accessories.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

if they dont do anything to scale enmity/damage done, in your fending accessories, good luck holding hate by 4.4, while dps and healers main stat keeps going up via the right side gear. Ifyou dont think this will matter, how much more damage are tanks getting with level 60 accessories?

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By 4.4, i'll have a 4.4 weapon. Im full VIT and i don't lose aggro on any content that i have done so far. Only way i can see people losing aggro is if they don't know how to open a battle or handle 3+ mob, which is their own fault for not asking tanking advice from people or searching for it, instead of complaining on forums about something that's working as intended.


The issue is the player.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

By 4.4, i'll have a 4.4 weapon. Im full VIT and i don't lose aggro on any content that i have done so far. Only way i can see people losing aggro is if they don't know how to open a battle or handle 3+ mob, which is their own fault for not asking tanking advice from people or searching for it, instead of complaining on forums about something that's working as intended.


The issue is the player.

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The "issue" is that tanks want to do more damage. Full stop.
The only reason this aggro thing even started is because part of the community is extremely toxic towards tank (and healer) DPS, so tanks need to come up with an excuse like "oh less damage means I can't keep aggro that well" when in reality all tanks want is to do more damage than they did with considerable less effort 10 levels and one expansion ago.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

I feel like this is part of SE's plan to demolish the mass pull meta.

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Pretty much this. Same reason why mobs hit considerably harder this time around. Problem there though is that if this is what SE really wants, then they need to make a proper statement about it and specifically tell people "don't try to mass pull" since players won't learn otherwise.

As for the solution posed by the OP, I think it's important to remember that there was a reason why tanks were switched back to STR for a damage stat. The issue from this has been decreased enmity despite being partially relieved by directly increasing the enmity caused by select skills, but this is something they'd have to do every single patch in order to keep up, making threat generation pointless at nearly all lower levels.

The proper solution then would be something that increases enmity, but not increase damage as to follow the likely mentality of the devs. The easiest routes then would be either to make VIT increase the amount of enmity generated from skills, either all or just the skills which specifically have increased enmity modifiers or to buff tank stances to increase enmity generated based on VIT. The end result of either one would be an adequately scalable and reliable system for enmity generation while making sure tanks aren't making dps players feel pointless.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

The proper solution then would be something that increases enmity, but not increase damage as to follow the likely mentality of the devs. The easiest routes then would be {snip} to buff tank stances to increase enmity generated based on VIT. The end result of either one would be an adequately scalable and reliable system for enmity generation while making sure tanks aren't making dps players feel pointless.

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I think this is the better idea for SE's philsophy as it would also then force players to stick to tank stance for enmity, which seems to be another thing they want.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

The "issue" is that tanks want to do more damage. Full stop.
The only reason this aggro thing even started is because part of the community is extremely toxic towards tank (and healer) DPS, so tanks need to come up with an excuse like "oh less damage means I can't keep aggro that well" when in reality all tanks want is to do more damage than they did with considerable less effort 10 levels and one expansion ago.

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Well to be fair even the JP community was saying that aggro would be a problem. See my comment here.

Aggro was an issue while maximizing DPS though so it wasn't entirely an excuse. It was true to an extent.

From here:

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It could be harder to hold enmity for a good tank, though. The way tank AP scales right now has DPS pulling ahead in scaling. In current AP ratios, left unchecked, DPS would have been ridiculously ahead of tanks. WAR/NIN shenanigans are the only reason enmity is currently a non issue while maximizing dps, not because of Tank AP on gear being decent.

I mean, yeah, I could sit in tank stance spamming Butcher's all day and never lose hate, but that's not good play.

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For me personally, I just like using my full kit. I don't care about the AP nerf in terms of actual DPS ceiling, because I'm not hitting 3k anyways.

But I do agree a portion of the community is very toxic towards tank and healer DPS.