Large pulls VS Small pulls... in leveling dungeons?

If you are slowing us down we'll get a new tank in-progress.

While leveling, big pulls were always a bad idea. How that I'm in 310/320 gear it varies based on the tank; some runs it's like being back in HW content, other times its like the tank is made of tissue paper. I assume its ilv related.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

If I'm the healer you better goddamn well be pulling the whole dungeon if I demand it!
If I'm tank..I'm at your mercy, and the feeling sucks. Though truthfully the new dungeon mobs hit hurt like hell.

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That's a pretty poor attitude. The tank may not be comfortable with it....

If healer asks to pull more it'll be only his fault if you'll wipe (you'll probably not because unsure in their abilities healers never ask for this).
No reason to make a dungeon slower on purpose.
A lot of reasons to make it faster though, because you can use saved time in other activities.
5-10 saved minutes per dungeon may not look much, but they add every day into hours into days.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

I feel like all these complaints on Str gear complaints are due to misconceptions or getting bad tanks that would probably die anyway even with vit gear. A proper tank using Str gear should be able to handle larger pulls more easily simply by the virtue of things die faster. I have been using str gear when running with friends and they don't find it harder to heal me, sometimes they find it easier (due to my soul eaters and abyssal drains hitting harder and thus restoring more HP). Unless you are waiting for the tank to drop rather low before you heal them (which I admit is a valid strategy to maximize healer dps windows) and you like that extra HP so you can spend more time dps'ing (again, valid argument), there shouldn't that much difference healing a str tank and a vit tank in dungeons, if they are properly using cooldowns.

Cooldown rotations are a must when doing these large pulls. Knowing your party's damage and figuring if they are capable of downing the mobs within your cooldown rotation is vital. There is no excuse for not actively using your cooldowns. If a tank is doing these large pulls, and they aren't properly using their cooldowns, call them out on it (Str or Vit).

Not every str tank is someone who only cares about big numbers or is a sheep that follows the meta. Some of us actually knows how to properly play as a tank wearing str accessories and can make the pros outweigh the cons.

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I'd like to apologize for my earlier comment. I totally forgot that DRK had a way to restore their HP. I'm used to playing Warrior, and with the loss of Bloodbath, more damage doesn't help that much on trash packs in terms of survivability. I mean, they still do have Storm's Path and Inner Beast, but I wouldn't say the HP healed is that significant compared to Bloodbath. If WARs still had Bloodbath, I'd definitely be for STR accessories while tanking trash though. I think the extra tank DPS could help, but it also depends on DPS doing their AoEs.

I'm also not necessarily against the STR meta. I just think it's somewhat questionable on trash. What I usually do is wait until the tank's HP gets to 50% to maximize my healer DPS. But when a tank pulls multiple packs, I have to spam heals and it's harder to get Holy spam off. I'm usually running with a DRK from my FC. He's currently wearing Fending accessories. Hmm, I'm not actually sure why he's not wearing STR accessories. I think he himself is probably aware of how hard trash hits even with Grit up. IIRC I think in EX roulette he pulls two packs at a time?

Massive pulls are good, it teaches healers to MP manage and heal efficiently. It trains them up for harder content.

This is coming from a healer main btw.

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Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

While it's true I've seen the problem more often with Warriors and Dark Knights... it happened with a PLD too, but that one may have been because of lack of proper cooldown usage.

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Nothing a well-timed Hallowed Ground couldn't fix - Of which you should be able to use twice in a average dungeon run that lasts about 25 minutes.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Holding aggro is just half their job. The other half is surviving, which is where VIT helps.

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Only the more VIT you have now, the less damage you do, and the harder it becomes to hold aggro vs well geared dps. someone at SE wasn't thinking.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

That's a pretty poor attitude. The tank may not be comfortable with it....

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It's not a good healer attitude, but if I ask for mass pulls, the tank doesn't have to be comfortable with it. I know that the tank will probably lose some mobs, but I have to take that burden (with extra heals to dps) not said tank.

Do what you feel like, sometimes i do large pulls other times i just do chain pulls, as in lets say a group is 3x mobs when 2 or 1 mobs left i start moving on to next group.

If the group don't like it .. well they are more then welcome to kick me .. as i will 99% get into a new party before they even get a new tank.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

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I think 2 packs is pretty standard in Ex at the moment. Possible to handle more, but you need to make sure everyone is up for it.

As for your Drk, I mean some tanks are just more comfortable with higher HP. The higher HP can have a bit of a psychological effect that makes them feel more at ease and focused. Some people come from other MMO's where tanks don't necessary have a DPS meta so it may be what they are used to. It is technically the intended play style so there is nothing wrong with it. It is likely more of a comfort thing if I had to guess; of course, even an educated guess is still only a guess. Different play styles for different people.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Only the more VIT you have now, the less damage you do, and the harder it becomes to hold aggro vs well geared dps. someone at SE wasn't thinking.

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Yeah it was a really stupid change for a tangential reason.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

I think 2 packs is pretty standard in Ex at the moment. Possible to handle more, but you need to make sure everyone is up for it.

As for your Drk, I mean some tanks are just more comfortable with higher HP. The higher HP can have a bit of a psychological effect that makes them feel more at ease and focused. Some people come from other MMO's where tanks don't necessary have a DPS meta so it may be what they are used to. It is technically the intended play style so there is nothing wrong with it. It is likely more of a comfort thing if I had to guess; of course, even an educated guess is still only a guess. Different play styles for different people.

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Well, he comes from WoW so I don't think he's unaware of the DPS meta. I used to sit in tank stance and he told me that was bad. "gotta drop grit for that full 450 potency C&S" That was in Heavensward though. Yeah, I think he's probably more comfortable with it. He was saying how stuff hurts more now.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Nothing a well-timed Hallowed Ground couldn't fix - Of which you should be able to use twice in a average dungeon run that lasts about 25 minutes.

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As a main PLD, I'd agree, except that the keyword is "well-timed" and that one PLD we had didn't bother using it... so, like I said, I expect it was improper cooldown usage. ;)

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

If healer asks to pull more it'll be only his fault if you'll wipe (you'll probably not because unsure in their abilities healers never ask for this).
No reason to make a dungeon slower on purpose.
A lot of reasons to make it faster though, because you can use saved time in other activities.
5-10 saved minutes per dungeon may not look much, but they add every day into hours into days.

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This argument belongs in a Hefty bag. It's pure rubbish.

No one needs to be somewhere else that badly, otherwise they'd be doing something else besides being a general PITA to players who don't subscribe to the power-gamer mentality.

Yeah...I've seen this too, in Bardam's Mettle and Doma Castle. It completely and utterly destroyed Doma Castle for me; I don't have the balls to ask them to slow down, so I just sat there having a panic attack the entire run, ruining the end of the story arc for my boyfriend and I, and they died once because they pulled way too much. There's no reason to be mass pulling in a leveling dungeon...

I don't tank often but when I do I never chain pull unless the healer is basically poking me with a stick to do so.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

This argument belongs in a Hefty bag. It's pure rubbish.

No one needs to be somewhere else that badly, otherwise they'd be doing something else besides being a general PITA to players who don't subscribe to the power-gamer mentality.

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Eh, there have been countless times when I wished I was able to save an extra 5-10 minutes where it was enough time to get in in an extra run of something before I have to log off to go somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I don't do large pulls in leveling dungeons. If the party doesn't like it, they can kick me.

Spoiler: I've never been kicked for pulling small in leveling dungeons, HW or SB. I generally get one to three comms.

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I have. And I was told I was a garbage tank prior to the kick.

To make myself clear I do not expect tanks to auto large-pull by default. I've been through enough healers leveling DRK to understand how deterring it can be when you constantly die to no fault of your own.

But please, as a healer, if I ask for larger pulls can you attempt to make the effort? I've had tanks tell me "ok but don't expect much!" or "I'll do my best but I'm not use to it." That's okay! I will take the blame if things go wrong, and worst comes we can slow down if need be.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

No one needs to be somewhere else that badly, otherwise they'd be doing something else besides being a general PITA to players who don't subscribe to the power-gamer mentality.

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Maybe they just want to be in another dungeon, getting more EXP. Why get 2 dungeons in one hour when you can get 3?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I almost never have a tank that doesn't pull big groups even in the new stuff, and they never ask. Then they blame me when they don't use cooldowns because "Muh deeps", I blow all my cooldowns trying to keep them alive, still have to chain cast to heal their yo-yoing health, and they still die. I had hoped that with mobs hitting harder in this expansion tanks would realize that maybe they don't want to pull like insane monkeys, but unfortunately that hasn't been the case.

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This is what I've been finding as well. I made it through the MSQ during that first week of early access, and even on my first runs, the tanks were doing huge pulls. I've had only one tank ask what type of pulls I am comfortable with. Even now, sitting at i309, there are times that I just can't keep the tank alive regardless of what I do.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

This is what I've been finding as well. I made it through the MSQ during that first week of early access, and even on my first runs, the tanks were doing huge pulls. I've had only one tank ask what type of pulls I am comfortable with. Even now, sitting at i309, there are times that I just can't keep the tank alive regardless of what I do.

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There's a reason I did the MSQ with a DRK in my FC rather than queue for it solo and be at the whim of DF. :P

Whenever I tank, if I'm with a healer I know I will always do large pulls if I know they can handle it.

If it's with complete strangers, I tend to do the first pull as a stress test of sorts, and pull two groups. If things go super easy, will do larger. If it's okay, will keep that way. And if it goes to sh*t...small pulls from there on out.

Just need to read your party, and see how they are with the pulls as you go.

I'm with the OP on the first time in a dungeon and only doing small pulls to learn it(such as what monsters have skills that should be stunned).

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I don't do large pulls in leveling dungeons. If the party doesn't like it, they can kick me.

Spoiler: I've never been kicked for pulling small in leveling dungeons, HW or SB. I generally get one to three comms.

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Probably because a lot of players who aren't exceedingly vocal would actually prefer to see the dungeon instead of run through it like a loon.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

To make myself clear I do not expect tanks to auto large-pull by default. I've been through enough healers leveling DRK to understand how deterring it can be when you constantly die to no fault of your own.

But please, as a healer, if I ask for larger pulls can you attempt to make the effort? I've had tanks tell me "ok but don't expect much!" or "I'll do my best but I'm not use to it." That's okay! I will take the blame if things go wrong, and worst comes we can slow down if need be.

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Ask nicely and you may get what you want. Though often the tone of voice is more of "ugh this is taking so long"

Pretty much everyone has agreed that two groups is what healers can (always if not minimum geared) handle. If the tank and the healer are maximum geared then they probably can get away with more.

I got used to the big pulls from earlier in ARR's life and thus I have a technique for that on WHM, but trying to play Paladin I don't know some of these guys managed to survive longer than the time Hallowed Ground gives them. It buys you just enough time for the healer to cast benediction if you over do it, but you don't get to do that with every pull since it has a 3 minute cooldown.

On the other hand, the running theme in both healer and tanking circles is that nobody actually likes big pulls. Just two consecutive pulls is fine with pretty much everyone, but pulling all the way to an obstacle without something like the vines in Amdapor Keep (Hard) or the AOE's in Keeper of the Lake to invoke a debuff/damage seems to be a suicide run unless the Tank and Healer regular play together.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

That's a pretty poor attitude. The tank may not be comfortable with it....

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I've never understood this line of thought. Tanks are by far the least important component to the success of a pull.

IMO, large pulls are a bad idea in most instances right now. Not all; there are exceptions, but in most 51+ dungeons that I've run, when tanks try to mass pull it ends in trouble, or at the very least a large amount of stress.

Tanks are tending to be squishy now on large pulls, so I'm usually in panic mode trying to keep them upright (I've had zero problems with tanks doing small pulls). When I play BRD, I've lost or had nerfed most of my AoEs, so it's not like I'm more effective as DPS on large pulls than small. Flaming Arrow and Wide Volley are gone, Quick Nock sucks now except on low HP trash, and I can hardly spam Rain of Death.

If you pull small it allows the healer (and this is coming from a healer) to contribute to the DPS. If you pull large, the healer is doing nothing but spamming heals, and even then may need a SMN or RDM to help bail him out.

IMO, the changes they made to tanks (such as removing some cross class skills, changing the way the stats work), makes large pulling prohibitive in most, but not all, situations right now. I'm at the point where I don't even want to run roulette on AST or WHM unless I'm with friends, because it's too stressful.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

IMO, large pulls are a bad idea in most instances right now. Not all; there are exceptions, but in most 51+ dungeons that I've run, when tanks try to mass pull it ends in trouble, or at the very least a large amount of stress.

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It's not just newer dungeons. Have you gotten Aurum Vale lately? I've had that one a couple times. You can tell it's going to be a good run if the tank isn't flattened (multiple times) in the first area.

Twice, actually. Once was today, in fact. And yeah, the first room was a problem. I mean, it's always been difficult, but now it's really difficult.

IMO, if you're a DPS consistently having to drop what they're doing to help the healer help the tank survive every pull, as well-intentioned as you might be, you should just stop. The tank surviving these encounters is only going to have him think that what he's doing is okay. Sometimes only a good death or two is enough to teach them that they're overdoing it. (That, or they just ragequit after one wipe... which is probably what happens more often nowadays)

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

IMO, if you're a DPS consistently having to drop what they're doing to help the healer help the tank survive every pull, as well-intentioned as you might be, you should just stop. The tank surviving these encounters is only going to have him think that what he's doing is okay. Sometimes only a good death or two is enough to teach them that they're overdoing it. (That, or they just ragequit after one wipe... which is probably what happens more often nowadays)

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Unless you are SCH, there are very few pulls a reasonable healer cannot keep a tank alive through.

That said, if the tank is making you uncomfortable, say so. I have found most tanks to be rather reasonable, or at least willing to go GIANT PULL -> Smaller pull to let me get my oGCD's back.

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Unless you are SCH, there are very few pulls a reasonable healer cannot keep a tank alive through.

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I have seen plenty of pulls (in all three post-legacy patch cycles so far) where I can literally be spamming Cure 2 as fast as I can (as in, stopping to try to do anything else like a Regen would result in the tank dying) and it's not enough to keep up with the sheer damage the tank is taking.

It is not just a healer effort.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

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Bene/Tetra/Assize/Asylum in between, use Holy to stop damage for 4 seconds then SC for another holy halfway through that stun for another stun which you can cast Cure 2 during.

If you use all these right and the tank still dies, he sucks.

What I mean to say is spamming Cure 2 or Bene 2 is not enough on a real pressure pull.

On the other hand, a tank should know the right limits and test the healer/DPS early and adjust expectations as needed (Since DPS killing things faster is a form of mitigation).

There are several occassions where you can pull 2 groups together. With rolebased skills I have, idk, 6 cooldowns+hallowed and clemency too, so esp. if I got two casters I gonna pull 2 groups at certain points.

Not crazy shit, like approaching the big stone adds in bardams mettle with the group before them. But Doma Castle the first two groups (starting with HG) or the two groups in the staircase (HG again and usually with full lb)? Sure.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Bene/Tetra/Assize/Asylum in between, use Holy to stop damage for 4 seconds then SC for another holy halfway through that stun for another stun which you can cast Cure 2 during.

If you use all these right and the tank still dies, he sucks.

What I mean to say is spamming Cure 2 or Bene 2 is not enough on a real pressure pull.

On the other hand, a tank should know the right limits and test the healer/DPS early and adjust expectations as needed (Since DPS killing things faster is a form of mitigation).

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You don't have all those CDs in every dungeon. I remember back when Qarn HM was relatively new and I got a run with a tank that was impossible to keep up when all I could do was spam Cure 2 w/ Divine Seal/PoM. All I had other than that was Bene, on a 300 sec CD.

I of course got blamed for him dying consistently, even though I explained that I was spamming Cure 2 and he was still dying.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

You don't have all those CDs in every dungeon.

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Exactly. Not every dungeon is level 70 where have your entire toolkit. Some of them you're cut off from your favorite bag of tricks and just trying to throw out what you have to work with as fast as you can.

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Originally Posted by Hikuras

But THATS the reason why everyone is having this issue. The meta is WRONG. Look at the thread, SE is finally taking a stand against the speed runners and told them to STOP. How? By making things hit harder and punishing you for trying to heal/tank like you did in HW. This is good and hopefully people wake the fuck up instead of running in these dungeons like they are superman.

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This is just plain false. Nothing hits harder, we're just not laughably overgearing it. I have had tanks do soft pulls and others pull half the dungeons with no issues. Nothing will change, especially as more people reach ilvl 320 and beyond. In fact, it'll inevitably go back to the speed running meta we've always done. Frankly, I am glad. Doing one pack at a time is bloody boring, especially on healer.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I have seen plenty of pulls (in all three post-legacy patch cycles so far) where I can literally be spamming Cure 2 as fast as I can (as in, stopping to try to do anything else like a Regen would result in the tank dying) and it's not enough to keep up with the sheer damage the tank is taking.

It is not just a healer effort.

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No one is saying otherwise. In that scenario, you had a stupid tank who thought their cooldowns were for decoration. We can't judge content based on people who don't even know the basics to their job. If you have a decent healer and tank, who rotate their abilities properly. Big pulls are still fine.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Tanks are wearing STR gear to HELP them do their job which is hold aggro, becuase someone thought it would be a good idea to remove their VIT damage scaling.

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Holding agro is moot if the tank dies.

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Originally Posted by Pells

Holding agro is moot if the tank dies.

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And they won't, provided they use cooldowns. People really have been overstating how hard these dungeons are. They aren't.

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Originally Posted by Pells

Holding agro is moot if the tank dies.

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And holding aggro isn't really something we have much trouble with, even before the buffs to emnity generation that came in 4.01. Yes our threat gen isn't what it used to be, but it's entirely adequate for current content. Let's face it: People use STR gear for bigger numbers, NOT because they are struggling with threat

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

And holding aggro isn't really something we have much trouble with, even before the buffs to emnity generation that came in 4.01. Yes our threat gen isn't what it used to be, but it's entirely adequate for current content.

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Unless you're partied with two red mages and don't use Overpower/Flash/Unleash respectively when pulling. I admit I haven't tanked since SB hit, but my go-to way of tanking is use the aforementioned skills 2-3 times depending on mob size.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

Let's face it: People use STR gear for bigger numbers, NOT because they are struggling with threat

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And usually ignore above mentioned skills.