REQUEST: Please change PVP duty incentive

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

PvP hasn't been dead since they removed the Grand Company restrictions and added the Garo gear. Frontlines may not have been instant, but it popped fairly regularly, and I was queuing into 8v8 Feast matches right up until the serves went down for Stormblood within 5-7 minutes.

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That's why I mentioned the PvP event. Prior to that, it was hour+ queues into frontlines.

Terrible suggestion - if you want to improve PvP you should be asking for Frontlines RATED matches that give no experience and is for the true PvP'ers. This is the casual, fun PvP where the only thing "places" serve is achievements and faster PvP currency/prestige. Leave the casual PvP content rewards alone unless you want the queues to be 30 min+ and effectively dead.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

This suggestion would effectively eliminate any incentive to do Frontline. Ever. Think carefully before you ask for changes you may regret.

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Pretty much this. If you got less XP when you lose people simply wouldn't play. There's never a guarantee of victory, teams are random.

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Originally Posted by Dizhonor

I'm not suggesting that we take away rewards. I'm suggesting that the level of awards be tied to effort / results.

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So what if you get a bad team? You should just get less experience because your team sucks? People might just go back to PoTD in that case.

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Originally Posted by Dizhonor

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People are using Frontline to level alts. Namely DPS alts. So they are only doing it for the experience. So don't care about winning or losing. So thank you for making my point about people abusing Frontline for experience. :)

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I can't get the Garo mounts without winning, broheim. You also get more Wolf Marks for winning, which I need to purchase the Garo gear. Suffice it to say I have a vested interest in the outcome. But yeah, totally proves your point. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This is whole problem. People go into PvP with the sole intent of leveling their jobs for PvE and couldn't care less about actually winning. Perhaps the OP's numbers are a bit too steep a punishment but people should be incentivized to win not get a participation medal. Nothing is more annoying than getting into Shatter and half the Alliances run off towards the other team only to get themselves killed or allow another GC to win because they can't be bothered to attack the ice. I have had multiple instances of people in chat flat out admit they don't care and only queued for the EXP.

As for one GC always losing. It's complete coincidence. Freelancer is set by default now. I've been apart of all GCs multiple times with varying results. You just had a string of bad luck is all.

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I don't think the BGs go any worse than they did in HW when I was farming Garo gear.

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Originally Posted by Dizhonor

REQUEST (suggestion): Scale Experience to PARTICIPATION

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Fixed. K/D/A ratio, Damage done to PCs/Ice, Healing Done, Occupations (For Seal Rock/Secure). More you do, more exp. Sure, we could have a bonus for 1st or whatever, but that should just multiply EXP that you'd gain for actually playing.

Now you wouldn't be able to AFK and get exp.

People who lose that contribute more WILL get more exp than AFKers on the winning team. Because 0 x 150% (for a win for example) is still 0 compared to any amount of exp x 100%.

Here's a question for the OP: Do you consider the people who hang back and protect the base on Shatter to be AFK?

For all those suggesting "participation" being the factor for rewards, how do you factor in the intangibles? Things like shows of force to scare off flankers, these are important tactics that involve no trackable data due to no actions being taken other than merely existing in sight range of opposing players.

I was hoping this was a Duty Roulette: Frontlines request to increase daily EXP bonus.

No... No I was wrong.

My fear with setting rewards on participation is that it may discourage players from taking healers into PVP.

Since half the time healers are better off baiting out or distracting opposing players from the objectives while the DPS chip down ice. Help give the team an overall win but completely ruins a healer's heal/damage scores.

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Originally Posted by Veritas-Ancora

I was hoping this was a Duty Roulette: Frontlines request to increase daily EXP bonus.

No... No I was wrong.

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The request could be amended then. 3rd place gets the current exp. 2nd place gets a bit more and 1st place gets a decent amount more. 2nd place should not get too much more than 3rd or you'd be stuck with people just simply fighting for 2nd place once they think the game is out of reach to win. Giving the biggest increase to 1st place would be the best bet at getting the most people in a game involved in actively trying their best to win.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

My fear with setting rewards on participation is that it may discourage players from taking healers into PVP.

Since half the time healers are better off baiting out or distracting opposing players from the objectives while the DPS chip down ice. Help give the team an overall win but completely ruins a healer's heal/damage scores.

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This on top of the 90k issues that many people are still having could ruin entire games for them. I doubt that we'd ever see individual performance based rewards outside of the feast ranking system in pvp anyways.

This suggestion doesn't even take into account premades of old pvpers premades destroying the other two teams. The matches where out of 72 I see only 3 healers total on the whole list. Yes an average of 1 per team. It is fun to see all the bodies drop, but that is also not very balanced. Any change would have to come with a whole lot more work.

I am sure someone did the math at how long the average shatter match is and average dungeon xp run and came up with the xp reward. While it can be less attention then a dungeon you probably aren't making xp faster if you got 4 people together and ran the best xp dungeon ratio.

While a couple achievements are tied to wins. If you play enough you will win by sheer force. While getting marks faster is fine for GC turn ins and desynth. Marks for anyone who pvps enough basically become useless.

I ran probably less then 50 premades and level 3 gcs to rank 50 before HWs and 1 to 50 after HWs. Trust me people will be bad, miserable, not play the way you like, or not see how the game is going. To many things to worry about. http://i.imgur.com/mdwOE5v.jpg?2

http://i.imgur.com/05MOc0n.png?2

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Here's a question for the OP: Do you consider the people who hang back and protect the base on Shatter to be AFK?

*intangible snip*

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I'm not the OP but I don't think you need to stay put at base 100% of the time to protect it. You're as much use as an afker if more people come than you have at the base.

You do make a good point about the intangibles though... I have no good answer to that. But you'd be doing other things and not just those during the course of the match.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

No one's a healer snip

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If you're baiting people away, they may be chasing and hitting you with ranged attacks, which you can heal up the damage. Honestly, if you're going to die for it, it might not be the best idea, instead you could be alive and healing or doing damage. I don't think a whole two teams are going to chase after one healer. You'll be more use trying to protect and heal your team as they get hit trying to kill ice.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

The request could be amended then. 3rd place gets the current exp. 2nd place gets a bit more and 1st place gets a decent amount more. 2nd place should not get too much more than 3rd or you'd be stuck with people just simply fighting for 2nd place once they think the game is out of reach to win. Giving the biggest increase to 1st place would be the best bet at getting the most people in a game involved in actively trying their best to win.

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The problem here is that will result in the same thing as turn EXP down for losing teams; the GC's that usually lose will still be discouraged seeing COMPARATIVELY paltry rewards, and PVP will lose players.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

The problem here is that will result in the same thing as turn EXP down for losing teams; the GC's that usually lose will still be discouraged seeing COMPARATIVELY paltry rewards, and PVP will lose players.

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If the numbers stay the same for all other ways to earn exp. people will simply just do the math though. And if 3rd place stays the same amount of exp. afk'ers will still try to leech free exp. I'd argue that the exact opposite would happen and more people would attempt to leech hoping to get a lucky carry for higher exp. bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Rilasha

Snip

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You'd be surprised how easy a healer player meeting an incoming party can buy time. I've literally kited groups away by merely existing.

Besides SCH and AST don't have access to Protect in PVP, we have one DOT, and our key attack is nerfed to hell damage-wise as it has secondary traits to hinder attackers (Broil has TP and MP damage and Malefic inflicts slow) that focusing ice can feel like a waste of mana verses slowing down other players. Anyway, selfhealing at warp speed is the best method to play bait, since then you're more of an active target if you can last more than 5 seconds.

It's not the BEST strategy to always use, but it's an option that's worked in my team's favor enough times I can't rightly write it off.

Also;
SCH fairy uptime is limited to the fairy gauge, and Eos only.
AST can draw cards but not burn or hold.
Mana rates are fixed and high.
Our ONLY AOE heal is the LB.
Heals potencies are sky high, however.

Probably has been said, but keep/raise exp for all (get same) but sell better stuff with marks as a reward for winners.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

*snip*

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Yeah, I've been playing AST a lot to level it up on my alt. I've gotten Battle High a lot of the time just from spamming Malefics while healing up everyone in my entire alliance since hardly anyone wants to play a healer. (I did end up having to solo heal 23 other people in one game)

But since I usually stay with the main force, I don't get targeted for some reason. People really like to leave me alone. /shrug
I'm spam healing the tank instead.

Maybe I'm just suggesting things that would help me get more experience...
*is the highest damaging healer in any Frontline game with like 50-70k damage to PCs*

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Originally Posted by Rilasha

But since I usually stay with the main force, I don't get targeted for some reason. People really like to leave me alone. /shrug
I'm spam healing the tank instead.

Maybe I'm just suggesting things that would help me get more experience...
*is the highest damaging healer in any Frontline game with like 50-70k damage to PCs*

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Jesus Christ, lol. Nice job!

TBH, I see people spread out indifferent to party lines more often or not, and as far as I can tell, everyone does that as I freelance.

This might be Primal PVP verses Aether PVP, too, but healers tend to be more numerous than tanks here, and whoo, are you a walking bullseye if you heal. Even sticking to a crowd means nothing because people straight up hunt for healers.

It's pretty hilarious in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Jesus Christ, lol. Nice job!

TBH, I see people spread out indifferent to party lines more often or not, and as far as I can tell, everyone does that as I freelance.

This might be Primal PVP verses Aether PVP, too, but healers tend to be more numerous than tanks here, and whoo, are you a walking bullseye if you heal. Even sticking to a crowd means nothing because people straight up hunt for healers.

It's pretty hilarious in comparison.

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Yeah, when I'm on Monk, I build up my stacks and then I dive head first into the crowd and burst down a healer. Generally I'm pretty successful with doing that, especially with potency on Tornado Kick.

At risk of overgeneralizing, the problem with creating tiered rewards for PvP, especially for NA servers, is that it creates incentives for cheating/collusion. Unfortunately, anyone who has played PvP MMOs (think Lineage 2, Black Desert, Archeage), knows that the NA playerbase tends to look for exploits/ways to game the system when it comes to performance-based PvP (ex: match-fixing, sync queuing, etc.). Granted, it's much harder to do with Frontlines because of the sheer quantity of players (you would have to be super coordinated across multiple servers to meaningfully engage in matchfixing), but I wouldn't put it past the player base to do something underhanded if the incentives are there.

Link XP to place and you kill PvP again.

Just one thing, now that GC restrictions have been lifted, Frontline won't turn into a desert anymore, even if you remove xp reward. Queue can slow down a bit without being as bad as they were. I remember at least 2 case when pvp was alive for a few month despite having the shittiest matchmaking, without giving any extra reward but the usual tomes: before 3.1 and when shatter was released. People were dragged into FL either by curiosity of boredom of pve content. ofc once PvE got new contents, queue became shit again, but it was also because GC restriction prevent people to play pvp casually. Rewards aren't everything, there are lot of other reasons that drive people in pvp. If garo event had GC restrictions, it wouldn't have worked on long term. Right now, put GC restriction again, no one will come for XP in frontlines.

Back on topic: from PvP forums, someone came up with a good idea:

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

Rewards should be based on performance metrics like damage / healing done, kills, assist, etc. With a bonus reward going to the winner only.

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By doing this, You not only punish afkers, but you also reward any player even in the loosing team that contributed in the match. You could also add the same bonus as Wolf's mark in case of loosing: someone that loose is granted a bonus of x% for the next time he win. This a good way to cheer players that do their best no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

This suggestion would effectively eliminate any incentive to do Frontline. Ever. Think carefully before you ask for changes you may regret.

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Also, people will bail the moment they think winning is not a possibility (even more "AFK" defenders!), not to mention the alliance chat salt!

As stated previously, you'll kill all incentive to frontline. The idea is shallow and, honestly, very selfish.

Also, the idea that any one team wins more than another is demonstrably false, just ask those who've front-lined over a thousands times or more (Such as Joe Never where the proof is in his regular streams), they'll tell you, every team can beat one another provided they actually try.

You're not going to solve the AFK problem this way without harming the majority player base. It's been stated to death, and there's a thread already in the PvP forums about this. Ranked Frontline is virtually the only solution for those stretching for a "serious players only" experience. And I would support that change.

If people get lesser exp in PVP they ether dont care -> more afkers <- or simply dont do PVP at all.

For Exp: I do PVP sometimes, even I suck and mostly staying near base doing nothing, because FATES still give way to low exp as reward... ended up I only do SB Fates If with Bonus! ...Its timewaste without it! ..and kinda feels "You gained a pity rewared" <.<;

Same Exp:
15mins average time for 1 PVP match = 8-9 FATES (4-6mins each; ~45mins, without any Bonus in SB maps)
Stormblood still Fresh! And at like 90% chance: Im the only 1 doing Fates! >.>
Even with bonus - Im mostly the only one! o_O

Boost fates their exp and/or higher chance for Fates with Bonus! (Where are our battle leves...?)
Adjust the Difficulty to those 30mins Fates! They arnt Soloable at all! You need at least a Tank and Healer because the target hits damn hard or/and has alot of HP! I:

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

For Exp: I do PVP sometimes, even I suck and mostly staying near base doing nothing, because FATES still give way to low exp as reward... ended up I only do SB Fates If with Bonus! ...Its timewaste without it! ..and kinda feels "You gained a pity rewared" <.<;

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What would you say if I stayed at the entrance of a dungeon or afking during a primal fight waiting for others to clear it? Even if people suck, they at least participate in clearing the content in pvE, but it's apparently normal for people to slack in pvp and get full reward. Even if you suck, you have to participate, at least to respect the others that are trying, and you'll end up getting better at this. Even if you suck at killing people, you can still go to crystals.

However, you got a point: the fact that exp gained in pve is pretty bad (mostly DPS because queues are bad for them). The moment exp earned in PvE starts being interesting, people that were only doing pvp for xp will stop Qing, which will make exp in pvp completely pointless except for people that have even the slightest interest in pvp, either casually or actively. Until then (I'd rather say at anytime), rewards people for their contributions: dmg on players/ice/healings/assists/etc... with a bonus the nextime you win if you just lost a match, along with reducing global exp for loosing teams.

I don't have the problem with AFKers (in that it doesn't happen, not that I think it's ok!) but I do have an issue with how PVP legitimately has no rewards worth waiting for any more. You gain extra Marks for winning; fine. But who needs Marks for anything? You can buy anything you want to get with Marks within a couple of games and then it's just busywork going to the NPC to buy a whole bag full of junk to convert to usable cash once a day. I would really like winning to be meaningful in some way, besides the achievement rewards everyone has already had for months by now. The experience boost definitely encourages people to queue, but I think more prestigious rewards would encourage a few of them to stay in the community long term. I like trying to win, personally.

Not that keen on rewarding people based on scoreboard numbers because that just encourages people to play certain jobs or work on their numbers rather than doing what the team most needs them to do at any given time. You already get titles for kills; rewarding scoreboard performance via achievements rather than prizes is more satisfying to me.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

For Exp: I do PVP sometimes, even I suck and mostly staying near base doing nothing, because FATES still give way to low exp as reward... ended up I only do SB Fates If with Bonus! ...Its timewaste without it! ..and kinda feels "You gained a pity rewared" <.<;

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If you really just stay near the base in PVP (thus not helping your team) I am sorry to say but I hope that this will be punished hard in the future. If you queue for something please at least try to do your best..I am quite sure that you would not like it, if people would just stay at the entrance of a dungeon because they believe that they are bad. Nobody is forced to level in a certain way. You could just simply run dungeons.

Also there is truly nothing to be bad about..you either just stick with your team and hit other players or you hit crystals. There is truly nothing that hard about the system. The hardest part are the players.

@OP: I am against this simply because I would not want to try to get the mount achievements if the waiting time is too high. Also even before that you had bad and good players. Sadly the game itself does not really tell what you have to do there. And I would be quite annoyed if I only get 25% of the experience, even after doing everything I could do and just had a bad team. Heck even if you had three fully active teams you will always have the winner and the losers so this would punish all those that are doing their best.

The best would be that someone that truly does nothing (like no attack) will get nothing, and all that at least tried will get full credit.

Here is the thing, at least for me and maybe a fair chunk of players:

If you make the xp/tome rewards tiered where the current reward is scaled down unless you get first place I, and many others probably, will ditch pvp entirely because potd becomes more efficient xp wise and time wise. Technically right now potd IS more efficient xp wise as you go into further blocks but not time wise. PvP right now is more efficient time wise.

If you make xp/tome rewards tiered where the current reward is scaled up to something higher based on who wins then well... here is what will happen:

People will ditch weak grand companies to join stronger ones, leading to que times getting a lot longer. If people freelance and get on a weak gc then they will leave so they can try to get into a game where they are put on a strong gc, or decide to stop freelancing and just join a strong gc. If they become frustrated enough they will try to make 8 man premades to jump into pvp because a entire party communicating and working together can sway a match far more effectively then one guy. If they get even more frustrated well... they will look for ways to cheat the system, stop playing pvp entirely, or simply accept whatever rewards they do get and half ass everything.

Not to mention the wolf marks, outside of ilvl 235 stop gap gear, are more or less useless besides some okish glamour that the vast majority will not care about.

The grand company argument hasn't really meant anything since they added freelancer, though. The people who lose over and over will blame all kinds of things - and for sure, building a partial premade might help - but one of the things I never see in complaints about win rates is an analysis of why an individual might be part of the problem themselves instead of an elite PVPer perpetually hamstrung by a failing grand company (most of which will be made up of freelancers anyway).

Personally, I'm ok with them keeping exp as-is so long as they add some kind of incentive for winning beyond 'slightly faster gil from desynthesis', which is about as unexciting as it comes, and the mounts/gear everyone already earned months/years ago at this point.

I would not lower the XP gains at all since that would make people stop PVPing. I could see them adding maybe a 10% bonus or something small on top of existing rates for the winning team.

I think we also need a few changes to allow the community to clean up the AFKers:
1) Remove the kick timer. Only being able to kick one person every 4 hours prevents us from getting rid of AFKers since they are there every match.
2) Drop the timer to initiate a kick down to 2 or 3 minutes so we can get rid of them faster.
3) Add a 10 minute timer where they can't use DF after being kicked.

Please do not touch PVP right now specially Frontline. The XP given is godlike

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Originally Posted by Katryn

If people are afking in pvp, we need a way to report and remove them--swiftly and efficiently.

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Sadly reporting people for AFKing in pvp does not work. I take this from experience and many many people from the pvp community can probably agree.
People get quickly banned for harassment however people that throw games or AFK in games do not get banned.

In Season 3 and Season 4 of the feast there were players reported by almost everyone in the most commonly used pvp Discord in Primal for throwing games and AFKing in games but nothing was done ever.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rget-to-report...

The best you can do is identify people that are not contributing and Vote Kick them when you see them.

So I got to talking with my friend about PvP, who has a background in WoW, and here is basically the ideas we came up with:

Set a Bronze/Silver/Gold limit per tracked stat in the duty. Each medal grants a bonus xp multiplier based on its tier. EX: Someone did 50k damage to players, 50k to Ice, got 10 assists, etc and even though their team was in third place with them doing as much as they did they got a +25% bonus to the end of match XP because of all the gold personal medals they got for trying so hard.

The idea being to encourage individual players for trying as hard as they could despite the conditions they are finding themselves in and rewarding them for that. Without it being a limited pool out of the 72 players that can get that gold, or silver, or bronze rating. All personal that only you can see for hitting goal points.

In 3 PVP matches yesterday I noticed two players, one each on a map, just running in circles at the top of the map off in the distance doing nothing to contribute and just trying to get xp/verity. Upon calling those players out and then voting dismiss after 5 minutes has gone by, my other party members would not kick the abusing player out.

Folks, as long as you let people get away with this, it will not change unless SE does something to change it. Scaling rewards based on winning/losing or participation, etc. could be the way to go in preventing this type of behavior in matches.

P.S. I love the changes they made to PVP and I actually feel like I score a lot more kills in the new system... not that I was bad at it the old way but everything just works better for me in for 4.0. I have yet to go into The Feast but I feel like I might be good enough to go in there now and possibly do really well.

I don't want to provoke anybody, but I think that the best solution would be for Squ Enix to acknowledge that the majority of the people playing this game doesn't like PVP and to stop pushing it in any single way (like Garo, EXP, better glamours etc). At this point, I'm not even sure that the data they have are relevant as it isn't about how many people play PVP but how. PVP could receive small regular updates (like ..every even patch? ) so that pvp players have what they like most without forcing half of the server in it. Anyway, these were just my 2 cents..

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

Aether's Twin Adder almost always loses. This will force people to move to the other two and game will also become imbalanced. some people do try though. more than not...yet we still lose a lot lol.

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Just the last time I pvped they won like half the matches that day.

Would love them to nerf PvP xp given a small amount and move that more to FATEs to liven up the overworld a bit more with its FATEs.

In HW pvp ques where 30+ mins lol do you really want it to go back to that hot mess...also I've barely seen the AFK'ers anymore since they can't just sit still because of the lock out

I normally see everyone trying to get experience and win matches so this is a double edged sword, one side you can get rid of the ppl not there for pvp but on the other half it's going to start taking a long time to que for pvp again because no one would simply do it like it was in HW before the feast became a big deal with the garo stuff