Can we please get Mythic+ style dungeons in FF14?

I like these well enough in WoW, but I don't think I'd enjoy them in FFXIV due to differences in controls and UI, and I'd hate to see them implemented and made more or less a core part of the game and gear progression like they've become in WoW.

I would like it to be so. The endgame in this game is extremely stale because it's been the exact same formula the game launched with. Diadem was a failure both times as side content, and the only possibly interesting thing they're doing on the horizon is Eureka, which might be just as bad. I'm all for something new, but it also has to be good (ie, not Diadem).

https://media.giphy.com/media/POql6zsXZbmcE/giphy.gif


Go play WoW if you want that crap..

Let me explain why I think people hate Mythic+:

- If you are a hardcore player grind BIS a massive pain and probably will burn out anyone.

- If you are casual Mythic+ will inflate the ILvL gear for stuff that doesn't need it. So, if you don't have anyone to team up and you missed the early rush is a GL HF for you.

However the idea itself is great, and under certain affixes, dungeons are a lot of fun to do. If SE can find a solution for those two problems it will be a nice addition to the game. Oh, and will be very cheap, what's expensive to produce are assets and mythic+ is only coding.

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Originally Posted by White_Wolf_X

https://media.giphy.com/media/POql6zsXZbmcE/giphy.gif


Go play WoW if you want that crap..

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This is a terribly unthoughtful way to show displease for the idea.

People need to stop pretending like that having a request for FF14 isn't grounds for them wanting to leave for a game that already has the requested feature.

"I want more character creation sliders"
"HOW ABOUT NO! GO PLAY BDO IF YOU WANT THAT CRAP..."
Girl.

It can be a plain old "I don't want it because I don't want it." reason, but there are features that can be shared.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Yeah, no, I'd rather not suggest the devs go towards the path of asset recycling dungeons just for 'extra difficulty'.

A lesser MMO would have done that exact concept with the (Hard) dungeons (which is ironically a completely inaccurate description of what they actually are in FFXIV, completely overhauled dungeons that we just revisit for reasons).

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This. The regular dungeons are fine the way they are, if you want a challenge click "minimum ilevel" :P

The best solution is the one we have. Asset recycling is terrible in most MMORPG's (Wizardy Online is exceptionally bad, as each dungeon is recycled and simply mirrored and some debris dropped on a few locations.) At least what we have so far as "hard" versions of dungeons in FFXIV don't recycle the enemies. In Mabinogi, the "easy, normal, intermediate, hard, and whatever else tiers added after" recycle the dungeon with a palette swap, but the enemies simply have more HP. Whatever zerg strategy worked on easy mode works on the hardest mode.

Like the thing FFXIV has going for it in terms of level sync/ilevel sync. That means you can't complete a dungeon for experience if you're too many levels higher, and you can't intrude on a dungeon instance.

The dark ages of MMORPG's, like Everquest and Ultima Online were brutal about time cost penalties for failure. You die, you have about 3 minutes to get back to where you died or someone will loot your body. We've moved so much in the direction of "nothing can be traded without going through the market" that the incentives to "do bad things" in the game to get ahead are practically nil. In earlier games, you could literately follow someone through a dungeon, wait for them to kill the boss, then kill them while they are weakened and take their loot.

I just hope FFXIV never goes the route of "PvP anywhere" because that brings the player toxicity to a fever pitch. Sure it's fun sometimes to just screw around and see how long you last sneaking into the enemy cities, but beyond that, it encourages mass griefing.

Final Fantasy XIV lacks most of the penalties other games would hand out for failure, thus it should enjoy a long life span as long as it keeps away from copying the worst parts of other games.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

This is a terribly unthoughtful way to show displease for the idea.

People need to stop pretending like that having a request for FF14 isn't grounds for them wanting to leave for a game that already has the requested feature.

"I want more character creation sliders"
"HOW ABOUT NO! GO PLAY BDO IF YOU WANT THAT CRAP..."
Girl.

It can be a plain old "I don't want it because I don't want it." reason, but there are features that can be shared.

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Sliders are actually terrible though. Once I get a certain level of control over my character's appearance, it's game over. I'll never be happy with it again.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Sliders are actually terrible though. Once I get a certain level of control over my character's appearance, it's game over. I'll never be happy with it again.

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LOL It was just an example! But I know what you mean :P
http://imgur.com/PCdeAXv.jpg

if you can't handle sliders don't use them but the rest of us would like to have some actual customization.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

if you can't handle sliders don't use them but the rest of us would like to have some actual customization.

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Go play Black Desert Online if you want that crap...
:^)

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Go play Black Desert Online if you want that crap...
:^)

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Except BDO has awful translation, and awful almost everything else, except for combat which is nice.

Better to ask for something which would be a 100% improvement here, even if some people apparently don't know how to make good use of said improvement.

I can agree for harder dungeon related content. WoW's Mythic+ just isn't what I'd wish for this game though. The only thing I ever found fun about Mythic+ was the modifiers to trash and players. The concept of mad rushing the dungeon for hopes of a higher level key to just do it all over again was never exciting in the least. I'd prefer something challenging because the encounter is challenging, not because we need to cheese it to beat a timer.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Except BDO has awful translation, and awful almost everything else, except for combat which is nice.

Better to ask for something which would be a 100% improvement here, even if some people apparently don't know how to make good use of said improvement.

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Pretty sure Greedalox was being facetious. The top voted comment in this thread is a very dismissive "go back to WoW" remark rather than meaningful critique of the actual idea put forth by the OP.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I can agree for harder dungeon related content. WoW's Mythic+ just isn't what I'd wish for this game though. The only thing I ever found fun about Mythic+ was the modifiers to trash and players. The concept of mad rushing the dungeon for hopes of a higher level key to just do it all over again was never exciting in the least. I'd prefer something challenging because the encounter is challenging, not because we need to cheese it to beat a timer.

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I actually agree with this. I don't think everything about Mythic+ is a good idea - some execution if it is actually monstrously poor, in fact. But the basic tenable concept - harder dungeons with rarer or greater rewards - is something I think a lot of people who play this game might like to see, especially if it doesn't impede the progress of those not seeking a challenge.

I always imagined an "Extreme" dungeon would just reward more tomestones or something of the like. Skilled players can cap faster but it doesn't completely invalidate expert roulette or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

if you can't handle sliders don't use them but the rest of us would like to have some actual customization.

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You can't just not use sliders when sliders are how you customize the character. Please endeavor to be ever so slightly less ridiculous.

The issue with this was it was intended to give a solid end game option for non-raiders/pvp players. It became the worst thing in a while because you couldn't use party finder and people wouldn't take/go with you unless you were in the highest gear possible. It became a way for raiders to gear up their alts and no one else was allowed.

It might have gone better if Blizzard put in an item sync in the system; that way your gear was less important.

Players: Give us harder stuff.
Yoshida: Titan EX, Gordias, The Steps of Faith, The Second Coil of Bahamut Savage.
Players: It's too hard!

(Those were all things that most people complained about and were changed, abandoned or nerfed in some form. In Titan EX's case, it was removed as a gate to get into other EX primals.)

Just let the devs be devs. Personally, we don't need WoW crap here. FFXIV is not built around having an end-all armor for the rest of the game. It's not built around the same dungeons with just higher stats to make it more "difficult." It doesn't need a varied scale of armor if it'll all become moot come the next patch anyway. That's the beauty of FFXIV here that it reads like some people mean to change: regardless of whenever you join the game, once story is out of the way, it's incredibly easy to jump in and catch up. You don't need to pour your entire life into the game to stay relevant.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

The issue with this was it was intended to give a solid end game option for non-raiders/pvp players. It became the worst thing in a while because you couldn't use party finder and people wouldn't take/go with you unless you were in the highest gear possible. It became a way for raiders to gear up their alts and no one else was allowed.

It might have gone better if Blizzard put in an item sync in the system; that way your gear was less important.

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The only aspect I like about "tuning a dungeon" is if it was specifically for a boss-rush. eg remove the trash mobs and just fight the bosses. Boss rushes would be run at minimum ilevel sync so they can not be overgeared. Get a S/SS rank get a bonus. Get an A rank get the normal reward (100% tomes/experience) the dungeon would normally give out. Get a D/C/B rank and only experience/tomes rewarded (75% for B, 50% for C, 25% for D.) Also the dungeon timers would be reduced to 15 minutes with a "time to beat" listed.

Mabinogi actually had this as an option for the "easy/intermediate/hard" too, but just about everyone you tried it, did it to cheese the leaderboard by spamming cash shop items. Hence a boss rush would have to disable items too. Once you got the reward you never play it again. So that aspect was seriously broken.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

Please no, if you want to play WoW please go do that. I like to play FFXIV.

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The sad fact this got 31 upvotes is shameful. Not because it's a wow bash, but because there are 32 literate adults lurking on this forum who don't seem to realise that almost every aspect of FFXIV's gameplay was lifted from other MMO games. Putting features from other games in FFXIV is KINDA what they do around here, you snowflakes. Get some perspective.

"Shut up, Galgarion, you don't know what the hell you're talking about!" they furiously replied while some waited in group finder for their dungeon to pop, while the others awaited their LFR Susanoo, and still others tackled their public quests and rifts.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Players: Give us harder stuff.
Yoshida: Titan EX, Gordias, The Steps of Faith, The Second Coil of Bahamut Savage.
Players: It's too hard!

(Those were all things that most people complained about and were changed, abandoned or nerfed in some form. In Titan EX's case, it was removed as a gate to get into other EX primals.)

Just let the devs be devs. Personally, we don't need WoW crap here. FFXIV is not built around having an end-all armor for the rest of the game. It's not built around the same dungeons with just higher stats to make it more "difficult." It doesn't need a varied scale of armor if it'll all become moot come the next patch anyway. That's the beauty of FFXIV here that it reads like some people mean to change: regardless of whenever you join the game, once story is out of the way, it's incredibly easy to jump in and catch up. You don't need to pour your entire life into the game to stay relevant.

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Gordias is a poor example. They overtuned it to the point healer DPS was required because even flawless DPS couldn't meet the check. They later acknowledged their mistake and released Midas, which was far better received. Unfortunately, coming off the heels of the disastrous Gordias tier, people had already abandoned raiding.

Nevertheless, why is it always a dichotomy? Asking for harder content doesn't have to mean soul crushingly difficult. When people ask for harder dungeons, they means imply dungeons we don't completely faceroll. Susano and Lakshmi EX are considered jokes. That doesn't mean they have to be bumped up to Brute Justice or Living Liquid levels. Letting the "devs be devs" is a nice sentiment but if the content bores, people will wind up not doing it.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

The sad fact this got 31 upvotes is shameful. Not because it's a wow bash, but because there are 32 literate adults lurking on this forum who don't seem to realise that almost every aspect of FFXIV's gameplay was lifted from other MMO games.

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It's also shameful because "I won't use this feature" isn't an argument against implementing something. People don't think of things like efficient development time, meaningful reward systems, variety of gameplay or increased player choices. They just cry NO at every suggested feature they themselves are not interested in doing or using, because The Twelve forbid someone else has more fun in this game than before.

While there are a lot of things from WoW I'd like to see implemented in XIV, M+ is not one of them. However, if they want to add something akin to old challenge modes that award cosmetics only, that's fine. I don't think low man content should compete with raid gear and this game does enough of that already.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

Please no, if you want to play WoW please go do that. I like to play FFXIV.

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If it wasn't for Warcraft, you'd still be stuck on Tanaka's Wild Ride. Get over yourself.

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Originally Posted by cporter

Mythic+ is a style of dungeons from WoW with no weekly limits. It allows you to do more difficult version of dungeons in game for loot, etc. Unlike most MMO content it can be done unlimited amount of times throughout the week and still receive rewards. For people like me that don't really enjoy crafting/gathering/leveling alts... I simply want some sort of PvE content I can do as much as I like and receive rewards from.

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Savage content was supposed to be difficult.
Floors 101+ in Palace of the Dead was supposed to be difficult.
Shinryu was supposed to be difficult.

Nothing is proven to be difficult in FFXIV as long as people stop forcing people to skip phases. You'd be surprised as to how many are STILL struggling with Shinryu because they never seen these same mechanics from previous fights.

Please no. WoW has many good feature, M+ is not one of them. They are not fun. They got boring as any other dungeon. Everybody only wants to run the fastest/most rewarding, so you feel just bad if you get your bad dungeon M+ Key.

Whats wrong with someone wanting actual expert/savage dungeons? Hes not asking for a 1 to 1 implementation of Mythic+ dungeons. We just need more options for harder small scale content besides (hopefully) the new deep dungeon.

There is nothing wrong with the concept of M+ dungeons or a similar system in FFXIV. Anyone spouting the line of "Hurr keep wow out of FFXIV" fails to understand that every single mmo borrows from another, they just reskin it, tweak it and call it something else. While M+ dungeons, especially +15 and higher are incredibly fun and skill based, It really wouldn't translate over to FFXIV very well without some major tweaking. I'd like to see them implement something more to keep dungeons relevant outside of verity farming and leveling/daily roulettes, but It would have to be vastly differen't from how M+ dungeons in wow work. I think they should focus more on making hard mode dungeons feel like they are actually challenging with very unforgiving mechanics if you screw up, add some incentive to either clearing it as fast as you can (not a timer) or a incentive based on how many deaths you had before/if you completed it.

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Originally Posted by Baci

Please no. WoW has many good feature, M+ is not one of them. They are not fun. They got boring as any other dungeon. Everybody only wants to run the fastest/most rewarding, so you feel just bad if you get your bad dungeon M+ Key.

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Subjective. I found them to be hands down the best feature of legion. M+ only feels like a gogogo aoefest if you're doing anything M+10 and below. Above 15+ it starts to get a lot more dangerous and fun. Try doing any dungeon at a +20 and if you think you're going to complete it by racing through aoe'ing everything down, you are in for a rude awakening.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Gordias is a poor example.

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Still part of the "difficulty" people asked for, poor example or not in your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

The sad fact this got 31 upvotes is shameful. Not because it's a wow bash, but because there are 32 literate adults lurking on this forum who don't seem to realise that almost every aspect of FFXIV's gameplay was lifted from other MMO games.

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Any game made in the same genre lift things from each other. This is not new.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Nevertheless, why is it always a dichotomy? Asking for harder content doesn't have to mean soul crushingly difficult. When people ask for harder dungeons, they means imply dungeons we don't completely faceroll. Susano and Lakshmi EX are considered jokes. That doesn't mean they have to be bumped up to Brute Justice or Living Liquid levels. Letting the "devs be devs" is a nice sentiment but if the content bores, people will wind up not doing it.

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The answer is when this was asked to Yoshida, he made a point to say, "First you wanted harder content. We gave you Gordias. Then you said it was too hard." When it was brought up again in another panel, can't remember if it was Live Letter or the Fanfest or one of the cons, someone said the game was too easy. His response: "Good." These are literal quotes that have been said since the year turned 2017- you can find the proof in past videos. Yoshida cares about how clearable the content is in the game. Considering how abysmal the clear rates are for raids (7% highest in NA, 10% minimum JP), I don't blame him for making the game easier. Numbers show the majority of players simply don't have the skillset to handle harder content or just have no interest in doing that content.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Still part of the "difficulty" people asked for, poor example or not in your opinion.

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Actually I'd argue nobody asked for Gordias to be as hard as it was. It was deliberately overtuned due to the devs wanting to artificially make time for their vacation (not saying the vacation wasn't deserved). Exempting Gordias, you also have no proof at all that the people asking for more difficult content and the people asking for nerfs are the same people.

People who want Lakshmi EX to be an actual challenge are not the same people saying that the final boss is too difficult and needs to be nerfed.

I am against Mythic+ dungeons not because I don't think it would work but because I would rather see other types of difficult content besides dungeons. PoD's lower floors are a great example of a difficult challenge that can be rewarding (lots of folks haven't done that). The problem is people want hard content without increased time investment. It takes a while to clear down PoD, people get bored and want out, difficulty aside.

Someone earlier mentioned a 'Boss Rush'. That's something that could be challenging quick and fun.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

I am against Mythic+ dungeons not because I don't think it would work but because I would rather see other types of difficult content besides dungeons. PoD's lower floors are a great example of a difficult challenge that can be rewarding (lots of folks haven't done that). The problem is people want hard content without increased time investment. It takes a while to clear down PoD, people get bored and want out, difficulty aside.

Someone earlier mentioned a 'Boss Rush'. That's something that could be challenging quick and fun.

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Something like, "4-man primals"? Fights that are similar in nature to EX primals but with mechanics better suited to the 1-1-2 ratio? I'd be down with that; I like the relative difficulty and time investment vs reward of most of the primal fights so far.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Still part of the "difficulty" people asked for, poor example or not in your opinion.

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By that logic, Astro should never have been adjusted from its 3.0 iteration. After all, it was still functional, albeit widely inferior to its counterparts. They went too far. That doesn't mean they should go the polar opposite. You're essentially saying give up after the first blunder.

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The answer is when this was asked to Yoshida, he made a point to say, "First you wanted harder content. We gave you Gordias. Then you said it was too hard." When it was brought up again in another panel, can't remember if it was Live Letter or the Fanfest or one of the cons, someone said the game was too easy. His response: "Good." These are literal quotes that have been said since the year turned 2017- you can find the proof in past videos. Yoshida cares about how clearable the content is in the game. Considering how abysmal the clear rates are for raids (7% highest in NA, 10% minimum JP), I don't blame him for making the game easier. Numbers show the majority of players simply don't have the skillset to handle harder content or just have no interest in doing that content.

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They misinterpreted that question. The person who asked it posted on reddit, claiming to have meant content outside Savage. Once again, you are arguing a binary between brain dead easy and soul crushingly hard. Why can't we have a middle ground? Sephirot and Nidhogg were a good balance. I also like a fair few Stormblood dungeons. What I dislike is seeing primals go down in less than an hour aka Zurvan. Clearable is fine, but if everything becomes too easy save a single fight, you're just as likely to drive people away from boredom. The higher floors of PotD (150+) offer a nice difficulty curve. Build from that instead of making story mode something half the party can be asleep through and still clear.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I don't blame him for making the game easier. Numbers show the majority of players simply don't have the skillset to handle harder content or just have no interest in doing that content.

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Probably because the tone of people telling people how to play the content puts people off the content. If you're not perfect the first time you play it, you therefor always will suck at it, never join PF again, etc. That was my experience way back with Coil turn 5 and Garuda Extreme, people are too quick to punch "abandon", dc themselves or exit the duty if you fail it once if you get them in the duty finder. So thus this content is not completed for lack of interest in dealing with the toxic "gitgud" raiders.

Mythic+ is horrible and should not even be on the idea table for FF14...go play WoW if you want terribly designed ARPG content in your MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Zarabeth

Please no, if you want to play WoW please go do that. I like to play FFXIV.

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So much this! I hate M+ sooo much but in general I'm just not a fan of dungeons to begin with. I wouldn't mind it if it wasn't something we HAD to do. Like in WoW if you want to keep up your raid group you pretty much had to do them and I hated them which is a big reason I unsubbed from WoW earlier this year.

Not only that but I like getting new dungeons and not reworked dungeons.

But again I wouldn't mind as long as there is some kind of limit on the rewards so we don't feel like we need to always do them to stay caught up.

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Originally Posted by Kasmiya

So much this! I hate M+ sooo much but in general I'm just not a fan of dungeons to begin with.
Not only that but I like getting new dungeons and not reworked dungeons.

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Lol What? You generally hate dungeons but then you like getting new dungeons?

Firstly, regarding M+, you don't "have" to do them for raiding, they're completely optional in that sense as the gear you get isn't better than Tier sets and while the AP grind was the only real reason to do Mythic + runs, it still wasn't required. Just raiding alone will get you the gear necessary. I personally didn't like M+ dungeons in WoW, I found them a waste of time as I only did Heroic Raiding and had no issue with gear/AP before I left the game.

I understand the OP's suggestion toward them, as it's a nearly unlimited source for content for endgame, but with that said, it would have to be handled differently for XIV over what WoW did. Maybe just put challenges in the dungeons that award you with gear/tomes/etc for doing them?

edit: I think before ANYTHING is done regarding dungeons, maybe update the f'n Forums to allow more than 1041 characters in a single post....

No. If you want to play wow, go play wow. You want stuff from wow? GO PLAY WOW. You want to complain that FF is not wow? Wow is waiting for you. Stop asking for wow crap in a good game.

Mythic+ is a large factor in why I've stopped playing WoW outside of the occasional "let's check out the new patch" moment of weakness. Please do not bring that here. I'll go play D3 or PoE if I get the aRPG grind itch.

Hell No! Take the WoW crap somewhere ells.... FFXIV ant no copy cats game!

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Yeah, no, I'd rather not suggest the devs go towards the path of asset recycling dungeons just for 'extra difficulty'.

A lesser MMO would have done that exact concept with the (Hard) dungeons (which is ironically a completely inaccurate description of what they actually are in FFXIV, completely overhauled dungeons that we just revisit for reasons).

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At least with Mythic+ style dungeons, we might get something vaguely resembling challenge in small parties.