Job potions and newbies - let's not double standard ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kupokage

Stop defending that Jump Potioned player who fails mechanics and who dont know his/her rotations. Id rather have a seasoned player who ignores mechanics and refuses to Heavy Thrust than a fake 70 who dont know the mechanics and has no idea what Heavy Thrust is.

---

Ive seen way worse from players that leveled their jobs the normal way. Whats your point? And basically whats the point of this thread anyway? What makes a shitty player that leveled normally any different from a shitty player that boosted? And especially when this is a new expansion. New things, new dungeons, new bosses, new skills and spells. People are still learning. Some in a very slow pace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylentmana

I think the problem exists because by the time you reach level 60 you shouldn't have to deal with all the frustration of playing with a newbie. Everyone should be experienced and know how to play the game by then. Jump pots upset this balance by bringing beginners up to the same level that other players worked and learned their job/role for. Its not really fair to the vets to demand that they now run content with people who can't even perform. Especially if the vet is a DPS who had to spend an hour to get in a dungeon only to get stuck with a sprout tank who doesn't know their role.

Personally, I think jump pots should be limited to players who already leveled at least one job to 60 the manual way.

---

There are plenty of people that have played this game for 2+ years that play like garbage. It makes no difference to me at this point. Also requiring some one to level a job before using the potion negates half their purpose.

Here is my deal:

You are in high level dungeons. I do not give a rip HOW you got there, it is your job to know how to play it.

I treat true sprouts a little more sympathetically because when I enter Sastasha, it doesn't matter so much if they screw up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I initially started this game as Monk but switched before even finishing ARR to Dragoon and leveled it from 34 to 52 in a single day grinding nothing but FATEs. I pulled up a video and learned the rotation that same day. Was it perfect? Hardly, but it was certainly workable. See, I wanted to improve. Jump potions don't inherently make bad players. Lazy people will always be lazy.

---

Have you forgot the mechanics you learned with the monk in dungeons after grinding FATEs with DRG?

It is less about rotation, but about mechanics and the role of the job in a party environment.
SE should do Novice Hall and Guildhest a requirement for level jumpers.

jump potions will ensure that this game never leaves "tutorial mode". I just hope they put in better endgame stuff, mindlessly bashing monsters in PotD and Diadem has been less than stellar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

jump potions will ensure that this game never leaves "tutorial mode"

---

Keep that fear mongering going bro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Have you forgot the mechanics you learned with the monk in dungeons after grinding FATEs with DRG?

It is less about rotation, but about mechanics and the role of the job in a party environment.
SE should do Novice Hall and Guildhest a requirement for level jumpers.

---

The mechanics aren't exactly difficult to grasp. Don't stand in the orange marker. I picked up stack mechanics, pulsing aoes and etc all from trial and error, video guides or asking other players if I wasn't entirely certain of something. I switched from Monk fairly early on. So I didn't even do all the 2.0 dungeon, let alone any of the subsequent patch ones. Basically, my first 40ish+ experience was with a job I grinded doing nothing but FATEs. I leveled my first ever tank during the Yokai grind and researched how other people played before diving into dungeons. All it takes is a willing and some effort to learn. A person buying a potion can click on the selfsame videos I did if they choose.

The point remains someone too lazy to even read their toolkits wouldn't suddenly care if they started from level 1. We needs only look at the abundance of Red Mage and Samurai who grinded PotD and have no idea what they're doing. The first thing I did when picking up Samurai? Looked up its toolkits and went through reddit to see what other people were doing so I'd have something to compare against.

Cant really whine to vets who have subbed for years. Personally The first story dungeon shouldve had these bosses in it:

first boss - 2nd boss of bardems mettle
second boss - 4 man titan hard mode
4rd boss - that gotdang charibert from the vault

whilst playing incessant clips of the final boss of doma castles "DieDieDie Die" when mechanics start, and of course The griffons "sloppeh" when mechanics are failed by someone

This community man. . . always looking for some target to vent on. . .

If we're going to bag on people who use jump potions, how about the people that intentionally wait for content to get old/higher gear so they can just faceroll stuff? I mean, there's the people that busted their ass to learn the fights/mechanics, then you have Miqo'te Sue there who just waits 2 or 3 patch cycles then overgears and clears it without having ever learned the mechanics properly.

Not quite the same, no, but I see people talking about how they had to work to get to 60/70 completely overlooking the fact that 60 is nothing more than a starting point for what's current. If they run anything old, and trying to gain XP, they're not doing it at 60/70. They're doing it at the synced level appropriate for its time. Anything new, they'll have to learn right beside you. Sure, long time players will have a slight advantage in knowing what to do or having a sense of familiarity, but let's not act like there isn't plenty of time, instances, references, guides, and opportunities to learn what needs to be learned on the way up to 70.

And for the players defending their "It's not my job to teach them how to play", you don't have to. No one's even asking you to. . . But don't think you got where you are alone. You can affect the change you want to see, or you can be stubborn and look down upon someone who, if given proper guidance, could become just as good as you.

I'd also like to point out the fate grinders of the lv 50 era, and the PotD grinders of the lv 60 one. Yup. "Hard earned." Preemptively warning the PvP lv 70s. Be ready to be the next scapegoat. . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

If we're going to bag on people who use jump potions, how about the people that intentionally wait for content to get old/higher gear so they can just faceroll stuff? I mean, there's the people that busted their ass to learn the fights/mechanics, then you have Miqo'te Sue there who just waits 2 or 3 patch cycles then overgears and clears it without having ever learned the mechanics properly.

---

Or maybe Miqo'te Sue doesn't have an FC or a static to run the content, or maybe they don't have the time to do prog so they wait till things are a bit easier for them? Even if they were intentionally waiting, what does it matter?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

And for the players defending their "It's not my job to teach them how to play", you don't have to. No one's even asking you to. . . But don't think you got where you are alone. You can affect the change you want to see, or you can be stubborn and look down upon someone who, if given proper guidance, could become just as good as you.

---

False. Last night went into a 50-60 with my friend tanking. Both dps and healer were new. Got keeper of the lake and "explain" was posted every boss. Even after explaining they deliberately ignored the explanation and waymarks i placed. I get exactly why people are upset.

Thanks for the input all - good conversation and debate. Someone wondered back there somewhere what the point of the thread was: the point is that I was seeing 'potion jumpers' being harassed/berated for their choice to jump, and I wanted to point out that many of us may be forgetting that they are just like sprouts (new to the game). That's all my point was - and to mention that just like we often (I hope) have a lil more tolerance for sprouts, we should extend that to potion users [at least in my opinion]. I understand the difference, but as many, like Lace, explained -- this has existed since ARR relaunched with FATE grinders, PotD grinders, and yes - soon PvP grinders. I'd wager that potion users actually have MORE invested in the game than just normal sprouts as they put out more financially which, I hope, shows at least a lil motivation. If not, well - at least it made SE a lil moolah ^_^v Thanks again for the chat and debate :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ADVSS

False. Last night went into a 50-60 with my friend tanking. Both dps and healer were new. Got keeper of the lake and "explain" was posted every boss. Even after explaining they deliberately ignored the explanation and waymarks i placed. I get exactly why people are upset.

---

Non jump potion players do that too. It's literally no different.

People acting like Steps of Faith and Final Steps of Faith were not a real thing with real players who really leveled up their jobs and still could not handle this without 1) gear ilvl easing, 2) changes to the encounters, or 3) both.

Bad players have been around since the game's launch, and jump potions are not going to change anything. The percents of capable vs non-capable probably won't change by any significant margin. I, for one, would much rather carry a jump-potion user still getting used to the game than a season vet who still cannot dodge landslides in Titan (any mode).

Maybe you all should take the time spent fussing about dealing with them and refocus that into helping them NOT become part of the growing problem pool of players expecting to get carried because we can't be bothered to deal with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Not everyone wants to play through four years of content before reaching the "good stuff" in the next expansion.

---

This quote compels me to point something out:

Expansions actually remove more content than they introduce. Upon the release of a new expansion, only the expansion's small amount of end-game content is played, and everything else is ignored. This is largely the fault of the playerbase, of course. Human beings are hopelessly dazzled by new things, and for some reason seem to think that their new $100 brand-name dress is somehow better than a dress of the same material quality that they bought for $5 at a second-hand store. Point being, the idea that only the new content is the "good stuff" is flawed. Unlike most games, Final Fantasy XIV actually does a half-decent job of encouraging players to interact with older content. However, even so, nobody touches old content with the exception of the odd unsynced run of something for WT.

The unfortunate side effect of this is that, not only does 95% of the game become dead content, but the developers start to ignore quality assurance on older content, due to the fact that seemingly nobody actually cares about it. For example, have you tried tanking at a low level post-Stormblood? It's exceptionally boring. Some classes have also lost all of their interesting playstyles at lower levels. DRK is an example of this. Clearly, SQEX designed the new DRK around how well it functions at Lv70, but forgot that it has to function equally well at 50 and 60, at the very least.

Combined, these two problems can't be good for giving new players a strong impression. Queues for old content are now worse than ever, even with roulettes helping to fill slots. And trying to find a party to play anything that is outside of roulettes, synced, has always been next to impossible. For example, if I try to host a Synced party for SophiaEX now, I get plenty of people who join... and then immediately leave the moment that they realize it's not unsynced (because this problem has become so widespread that, even if you explicitly set your PF settings to not be undersized and write the word SYNCED fifteen times on the party description, people still think it's an unsynced WT party).

Many or even most of you probably don't even care. You probably only play at Lv70. But that's exactly my point. Why is that? Why do you only play a sliver of the game's content, then complain about how players have to grind through all this "worthless old content" to reach end-game. It's not worthless content. It's just as good as the new content. Only, you've forgotten that, since you only faceroll it at Lv70 to quickly grind pixel mounts. What happened to fun for fun's sake, not material value? Heck, one thing I love about this game is how it takes no effort to actually attain end-game gear. Most games force you to grind for months to get maxed gear. In FFXIV, you can do it in mere days. Likewise, gil has virtually no use outside of glamours. These two things should, theoretically, free people up to just do what they feel like and have fun. And yet everyone is still so hopelessly obsessed with sparkly new things that they grind the same two new Extreme trials over... and over... and over... and over again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiden019

Non jump potion players do that too. It's literally no different.

---

maybe so, but these players had definitely used the potions. Therefore, the cause of frustration. My stance remains as it was against the potions as it has always been. I get the story skip one, but the job levelling as well is too much. imo it should be one or the other, not both.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

snip

---

But the dev team adds incentives to replay all the old content on a regular basis, what with the 50/60, Leveling, and Trial roulettes giving bonus verity, as well as the relic/Anima weapon questlines requiring you to revisit multiple cases of older content to progress through your weapon's upgrade path, which will probably be the case yet again if there is a new relic weapon questline introduced to the 4.x series. Give it some time. Just because people are focusing on the brand new content now doesn't mean they won't be given a reason later on to replay the older stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

But the dev team adds incentives to replay all the old content on a regular basis, what with the 50/60, Leveling, and Trial roulettes giving bonus verity, as well as the relic/Anima weapon questlines requiring you to revisit multiple cases of older content to progress through your weapon's upgrade path, which will probably be the case yet again if there is a new relic weapon questline introduced to the 4.x series. Give it some time. Just because people are focusing on the brand new content now doesn't mean they won't be given a reason later on to replay the older stuff.

---

I know that some of it is just due to Stormblood. But even so, these issues existed before Stormblood as well, when everyone was 'sick' of running the same old end-game Heavensward content. It was still virtually impossible to find parties for quite a lot of old content, although it was at least possible to find some of them, like ARR Extreme Primals would actually pop relatively often on Duty Finder, especially as a Tank/Healer. Other stuff though, say, Binding Coil of Bahamut, rarely popped synced. And finding a party for anything more eccentric, like minIL runs or no-echo, was far harder, though still easier than it is now.

baddies are not exclusive from jump potions, everyone knows that. But the chances of a bad player being a "jumper" is higher tham being a nom jumper.

Learning abilities at a one-at-a-time pace is a much better way to teach the player to get used with game mechanics (combos, positioning, healing...). If you get All abilities to lv 60 at your first contact with the game, there is something wrong with that.

Yeah, new jobs starts at 50, but you need to have actually some game knowledge to get there. It is not from the get go

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

I know that some of it is just due to Stormblood. But even so, these issues existed before Stormblood as well, when everyone was 'sick' of running the same old end-game Heavensward content. It was still virtually impossible to find parties for quite a lot of old content, although it was at least possible to find some of them, like ARR Extreme Primals would actually pop relatively often on Duty Finder, especially as a Tank/Healer. Other stuff though, say, Binding Coil of Bahamut, rarely popped synced. And finding a party for anything more eccentric, like minIL runs or no-echo, was far harder, though still easier than it is now.

---

Well, there isn't exactly much reason to run older raid content for anything other than the fun of it or for completion's sake. I had a different experience from you, though, I guess, considering that I frequently saw parties going up in the PF for Coil. No one really wants to run that stuff synced especially since you still get the same rewards either way. As for niche runs, that's what makes them so niche and eccentric – they're things people generally wouldn't want to do unless they're feeling particularly experimental and adventurous. I'm sure the only reason such parties are so hard to form as things are right now is because, as I said, everybody wants to do the new Stormblood content, considering they have an entire MSQ campaign's worth of content to blow through before running out of things to do.

I understand that the fact that things are like this is the point of your grievance, but I'm simply saying that what you'd like to see is technically impractical, which is why it doesn't happen.

The potions "Should" be used for alt characters or alt jobs.
It "could" be used for a brand new player, wanting to play content at the same level as a friend.

But that friend should be syncing down to help them, and if not, they should at least practice a bit, somewhat, before jumping into hard content.
(Its pretty easy to practice, and get a basic feel for what ur doing, before hard content.)

Heck, even a quick run in PotD should suffice.

Though Im not arguing its also ok to harass them over it either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Well, there isn't exactly much reason to run older raid content for anything other than the fun of it or for completion's sake. I had a different experience from you, though, I guess, considering that I frequently saw parties going up in the PF for Coil. No one really wants to run that stuff synced especially since you still get the same rewards either way. As for niche runs, that's what makes them so niche and eccentric – they're things people generally wouldn't want to do unless they're feeling particularly experimental and adventurous. I'm sure the only reason such parties are so hard to form as things are right now is because, as I said, everybody wants to do the new Stormblood content, considering they have an entire MSQ campaign's worth of content to blow through before running out of things to do.

I understand that the fact that things are like this is the point of your grievance, but I'm simply saying that what you'd like to see is technically impractical, which is why it doesn't happen.

---

You demonstrate my point though. How are material rewards more valuable than doing something for the fun of it when the material rewards are all pointless and easy to get? "Nobody wants to run that stuff synced especially since you still get the same rewards either way." Either way, the rewards have no value. Heck, it's even the same for the new Extremes, honestly. Sure, you can farm for a mount, I guess. But you will very quickly build up enough gear for every single class, many of which people may not even play. After that, why do people run it?

Well anyways, things aren't likely to change unless the world has some sort of global epiphany about the meaning of life. On a brighter note, I did manage to get a party together to do Royal Menagerie with 4 players.

I have yet to run into a situation where someone played bad, and I looked at their name and noticed a novice mark. The only two situations since the XpacI that I ran into with playing bad had nothing to do with the jump potion. one was a healer that had leveled up in PotD, the other was a weird anomoly (lvl 56 tank that never did his job quest to unlock it, and was playing as a Gladiator). Both instances had nothing to do with the jump potion.

Moral of the story? I have yet to experience any environment which makes me believe that the jump potions have brought an influx of horribad players into the game. Now, there's nothing wrong with choosing to like or dislike the jump potions based on principle, but I think people are far too quick to point fingers when they have personal Biases on specific mechanics.

I have met some jump potion users, and while my experience with them is limited (I've met 3 for sure that used a potion because they were new to a HW leveling dungeon yet were already in 260 Shire), it has not been a good one so far. I know that not all jumpers will act like the ones I've encountered, but all 3 were tanks (DRKs to be specific), who could barely hold aggro against the party, who spun bosses and cleaved people (had one who spun Nidhogg and cleaved the party and Estinien with Nid's fire breath), and when you try to instruct them "Don't face the boss towards the group", "Watch for his cleave he does", they blatantly ignore you, even though you are nice about it.

I try to give advice when I feel it's needed; but after so many times of it just being ignored, I eventually just give up. Why waste my breath if they aren't going to listen anyways....

Anecdotal, I know. But still. I wish the game would provide some Hall of Novice equivalent for potion users so that they could go through an in-game tutorial and learn the most basic skills and mechanics. I'm certain the individuals I met were not veterans on alts (you can usually tell when a sprout isn't really a sprout, but an alt, based on how they handle certain fights/how well their performance is even at lower levels). It is concerning to be in a higher level content (take some of the Stormblood dungeons), and have tanks or healers that have no idea what they're doing, or who can't keep up with the demands of the run (compared to say the demands of Sastasha or Halatali). I know this is the case for everyone, and not just potion users though.

Just wish there was an in-game way for potion users to be taught their basic skills and basic game mechanics. Because I think a lot of us know that an unhealthy number of players ignore tooltips usually (which is awful but...what can you do).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I try to give advice when I feel it's needed; but after so many times of it just being ignored, Anecdotal, I know. But still. I wish the game would provide some Hall of Novice equivalent for potion users so that they could go through an in-game tutorial and learn the most basic skills and mechanics. I'm certain the individuals I met were not veterans on alts (you can usually tell when a sprout isn't really a sprout, but an alt, based on how they handle certain fights/how well their performance is even at lower levels). It is concerning to be in a higher level content (take some of the Stormblood dungeons), and have tanks or healers that have no idea what they're doing, or who can't keep up with the demands of the run (compared to say the demands of Sastasha or Halatali). I know this is the case for everyone, and not just potion users though.

Just wish there was an in-game way for potion users to be taught their basic skills and basic game mechanics. Because I think a lot of us know that an unhealthy number of players ignore tooltips usually (which is awful but...what can you do).

---

I think this is a great idea. No reason why the game can't tag you if you've never completed the hall of novice for said class, and drop you in it right when you use the potion. bad players will be bad players, but this will at least get folks to pay attention to the basics.