Incentives to NOT queue as DPS

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Originally Posted by Ayerinn

I can fix queue times in 5 seconds. Ready?
5....4....3....2....1....change light party from 4 to 5 players (1 tank, 1 heal, 3 dps) like a ton of other MMO's - FIXED!

I'm half joking at how fast that change would be - but with the current ratio of tank/heals to DPS specs the 1:1:2 does not make sense any longer. Adding even more new tank/heal classes will not help in the long run (just ooo new and shiny short duration "fix") More incentives will just give more free stuff to people who actually like tanking/healing - not fix queue times because more people do it (a few might, sure but it won't change much.)

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Unfortunately, the entire game is balanced around the existing trinity and ratio of DPS to heals to tanks. To add a fifth DPS to the parties would require a lot of re-balancing that would affect every multi-player instance.

Agreed -- I don't think changing the amount of DPS in a dungeon is tenable as a solution. That's 1-3 more DPS a tank has to keep track of; that's so much more damage being thrown out, which would make dungeons even more of a faceroll than they often are.

As far as the tier rewards, I'd love more EXP/misc rewards. I like gil, but something with more momentum (a mount/title/glamour) would spur me to queue more often.

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Originally Posted by ilea

Agreed -- I don't think changing the amount of DPS in a dungeon is tenable as a solution. That's 1-3 more DPS a tank has to keep track of; that's so much more damage being thrown out, which would make dungeons even more of a faceroll than they often are.

As far as the tier rewards, I'd love more EXP/misc rewards. I like gil, but something with more momentum (a mount/title/glamour) would spur me to queue more often.

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Oh, I agree about rewards, I was using the gil as a way of illustrating the scaling, I'd prefer incentives other than gil to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

This is absolutely correct. the problem with long queue times for DPS is embedded in the MMO trinity system and will forever be with us as long as most people prefer the dps playstyle.

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Honestly, I wish they made tanking a bit more mechanically intensive. As stated here, the roles become quite bland if you take the ability to optimize away. I get why SE and Yoshi have designed tanking and healing the way they have. They want more new people to play tanks and healers and not feel burdened or anything by mechanical difficulty. However, in doing so, it alienates a lot of players who want to optimize.

Back in 2015, TERA had an endgame raid called Akerno's Inferno (you can search youtube, or video of me tanking it here). And I'd queue for it every single day as a tank because tanking was fun and engaging and mechanically challenging. Optimizing DPS made it even more of a challenge, because then it would be about fitting as many attacks in between blocks as possible. while taking minimal damage.

I think we all should get 1 or 2 daily insta queue, no matter which class.

After that we all go to the regular queue times.

Should clear the Duty finder of the people just progressing the story or people who play for short periods of time.

Thus will also reduce the queue times for more hardcore people, since casual gamers will come and go way faster.

Recently suggested this in a similar thread. Scrap the adventure in need EXP bonus entirely. instead make it a useable scroll type item that players can use on any job they so choose

If you had a scroll (ffxi players might remember things like miramettes memoirs) then you could run the roulette as a tank or whatever job job in need get a scroll and use it for an exp boost on any job you wanted. maybe equivelant of 10% of whatever level that job currently is.. so if I ran levelling roulette as a pld and used that scroll on my 60 blm. it'd be about 400k exp... it would need to scale though in order to work. because if it was just a flat boost. at a certain point it'd just not be worthwhile. kinda like what happens with guildhest roulette. even in mid 60s its still only 30k exp which is not even 0.5% of a level

Something like that would incentivise a lot of players to roll as a tank / healer and still allow them to level there dps jobs. this would have a 2 fold positive effect on queues..

Firstly it would increase the number of tanks and healers thus reducing queue times for everyone...
if I had the option of running levelling roulette on dps and getting 900k exp with a half hour queue or getting 400k exp with no queue I know which i'd choose...

the second positive effect is that allowing these players to level there dps jobs whilst running roulettes as tanks/healers would also in turn decrease the numbers of players in dps queues for the rest of the playerbase and that again means even faster queues for everyone.

it would be such a simple thing to implement andwould almost certainly improve queue times across all the roulettes

Essentially with this idea everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Unfortunately, the entire game is balanced around the existing trinity and ratio of DPS to heals to tanks. To add a fifth DPS to the parties would require a lot of re-balancing that would affect every multi-player instance.

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indeed it would...but it is the best solution to the issue that will never go away no matter how many incentives you try to give players to play a healer or tank. Why do you think SCH/WAR/DRK are mad their damage got gutted? People like to do damage and that made those jobs palatable to them. The addition of two highly requested, OP DPS jobs AND nerfing tank/healer damage is a recipe for disaster...as we clearly are feeling that at the moment.

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Originally Posted by armandojc3

I think we all should get 1 or 2 daily insta queue, no matter which class.

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I guess the problem with this is that it creates the same situation we have now. Let's say you're a DRG, and your queue pops instantly. Great! You get into the instance, and there's your AST, and your RDM partner. But... there's no tank.

You're still going to be waiting on a tank or a healer to queue. The queue itself is created by player demand. You can't snatch tanks or healers out of thin air to add to your party.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Recently suggested this in a similar thread. Scrap the adventure in need EXP bonus entirely.

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I also think this is a great idea. It's simple, and most importantly, easily implemented.

Either they just need to come out with another tank and healer class, because in HW this problem was not to big of an issue.....or just give dps a little more exp to balance out the wait time between tanks and healers going twice while you're still waiting for one que

Honestly the only way around this is to never never never ever just realease two dps classes that was the worst idea for que times hands down and plus only like 1 healer is good and 1 tank is good while the rest have some balancing issues...

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

Either they just need to come out with another tank and healer class, because in HW this problem was not to big of an issue.....or just give dps a little more exp to balance out the wait time between tanks and healers going twice while you're still waiting for one que

Honestly the only way around this is to never never never ever just realease two dps classes that was the worst idea for que times hands down and plus only like 1 healer is good and 1 tank is good while the rest have some balancing issues...

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Two miconic DPS roles at once was a little heavy handed. Regarding the tanks and healers, I have done a lot of reading and listening and have to conclude that although there are some issues for WAR/DRK and SCH, all 3 tanks and healers are perfectly viable in all the content we currently have for StormBlood - although tanks might need to focus more on keeping aggro and healers a little less on DPS.

Imagine that though, tanks focusing on max aggro and healers focusing more on...healing. Almost as if that was their role.

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Originally Posted by Pence

From what I remember....WoW gave satchels for the in-need bonus once upon a time (Back in Cata when I played endgame). This had a chance of dropping gil / items / super rare mounts. I think that may suffice for a bit. Put a rare mount, minion, glamours etc in it.

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I'd q up more for a chance at a cool mount.

A few other things the bag could have
-Rare crafting mats
-Food that gives a bigger experience boost than regular food
-Tokens for a glamour vender
-Other less rare but still cool mounts

Just so this didn't turn things completely backwards and make q's insanely long for tanks or healers, DPS could get these bags too but they should have a lower drop rate... 30% maybe. Healers and tanks could have a 90% chance to get a bag at clear. Not having a 100% drop rate would make the incentives last longer.

I'll accept a wire transfer to one of my accounts, who do I send my bank details to?

I thought they said they were adding additional rewards to incentivize queuing as something that was needed, but I only have a tank and healer at 70 so far and I haven't seen any sign of it.

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Originally Posted by Colino

I'll accept a wire transfer to one of my accounts, who do I send my bank details to?

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If you want to leave those with me, I'll make sure Yoshi P gets them.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Two miconic DPS roles at once was a little heavy handed. Regarding the tanks and healers, I have done a lot of reading and listening and have to conclude that although there are some issues for WAR/DRK and SCH, all 3 tanks and healers are perfectly viable in all the content we currently have for StormBlood - although tanks might need to focus more on keeping aggro and healers a little less on DPS.

Imagine that though, tanks focusing on max aggro and healers focusing more on...healing. Almost as if that was their role.

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WAR, DRK and SCH are definitely still viable. The problem lies in whether they're still fun to play or not. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure most people play games to have fun.

Imagine though, Tanks actually having engaging mechanics rather than just being a DPS with a tank stance, some skills with aggro on them and passive mitigation cooldowns. Imagine bosses doing consistent damage that needs to be mitigated rather than a tankbuster every now and then. Or imagine bosses that need to be stunned or silenced.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

If you want to leave those with me, I'll make sure Yoshi P gets them.

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Awesome! This'll be better than that time I got contacted by Nigerian Royalty!

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Recently suggested this in a similar thread. Scrap the adventure in need EXP bonus entirely. instead make it a useable scroll type item that players can use on any job they so choose

If you had a scroll (ffxi players might remember things like miramettes memoirs) then you could run the roulette as a tank or whatever job job in need get a scroll and use it for an exp boost on any job you wanted. maybe equivelant of 10% of whatever level that job currently is.. so if I ran levelling roulette as a pld and used that scroll on my 60 blm. it'd be about 400k exp... it would need to scale though in order to work. because if it was just a flat boost. at a certain point it'd just not be worthwhile. kinda like what happens with guildhest roulette. even in mid 60s its still only 30k exp which is not even 0.5% of a level

Something like that would incentivise a lot of players to roll as a tank / healer and still allow them to level there dps jobs. this would have a 2 fold positive effect on queues.. firstly it would increase the number of tanks and healers thus reducing queue times for everyone...
if I had the option of running levelling roulette on dps and getting 900k exp with a half hour queue or getting 400k exp with no queue I know which i'd choose...

the second positive effect is that allowing these players to level there dps jobs whilst running roulettes as tanks/healers would also in turn decrease the dps queues for the rest of the playerbase and that again means even faster queues for everyone

it would be such a simple thing to implement and could would almost certainly improve queue times across all the roulettes

Essentially with this idea everyone wins
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That's what I have been saying in multiple threads created by non tanks trying to solve the issue.

I love play tanks, but I can not level other jobs while playing Tanks. give me a way to play tank while leveling other jobs and I will always play tanks. AKA.. exp potion / exp scroll additional reward like Tomestone for Max lvl tanks would be nice too.

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Originally Posted by ilea

Agreed -- I don't think changing the amount of DPS in a dungeon is tenable as a solution. That's 1-3 more DPS a tank has to keep track of; that's so much more damage being thrown out, which would make dungeons even more of a faceroll than they often are.

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What do DPS contribute to the party? Right, DPS. You know what Damage interacts with? Health. So all you need to do is to increase the health of the mobs proportionally and literally nothing would change - Except for a few select mechanics.
For your standard, run of the mill telegraphed AoE, it doesn't matter if there's one or one hundred DPS. It's when every player gets an individual marker or similar that things stop working, because you might run out of space to place the AoEs. I couldn't name an example in 4 man content off the bat, but that's where adjustments would actually need to be done. Though you could always just make the dungeons more difficult that way and tell people to deal - making them less faceroll in the process.

Tanking however doesn't get more difficult at all - the aggro of every DPS is tracked separately, otherwise tanks wouldn't work in 24 man raids at all. There are 15 DPS in those and tanks manage fine, because more DPS doesn't mean you need to generate more aggro.
Healing doesn't get considerably more difficult either - AoE heals have no fall-off, so group wide damage and single-target damage remain as is. If medica two can take care of the injuries of 2 DPS, it can also take care of the injuries of 200 equally injured DPS. If only one DPS gets targeted in the first place, there's no change either. The worst case of all DPS failing mechanics is the harsh part, because then you actually need to use more healing spells than you'd normally do.

It's not as much re-balancing as people make it out to be for 4-man groups. It's 8-man content and savage raids where the idea is more problematic - Alexander 12 Savage comes to mind, where you have your diffamation, tethers and the portals. A11 Savage as well, because there would be little space left at the clock positions. Those are some real issues that would need to be retroactively addressed on a case-by-case basis. 4-man content has not enough mechanics of that kind to matter IMO.

You should probably consider giving an incentive/reward to make me queue with strangers.
I don't mind playing healer/tank, but I rarely, if ever, queue without at least one or two friend, that I trust to not be bad at videogames. And I'm probably not the only one, who thinks like that.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Recently suggested this in a similar thread. Scrap the adventure in need EXP bonus entirely. instead make it a useable scroll type item that players can use on any job they so choose [...]

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Agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Colino

Awesome! This'll be better than that time I got contacted by Nigerian Royalty!

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Oh, you're a repeat customer? Please ask about our loyalty rewards program! I'll just need all of your identifying information and we'll get you enrolled.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Two miconic DPS roles at once was a little heavy handed. Regarding the tanks and healers, I have done a lot of reading and listening and have to conclude that although there are some issues for WAR/DRK and SCH, all 3 tanks and healers are perfectly viable in all the content we currently have for StormBlood - although tanks might need to focus more on keeping aggro and healers a little less on DPS.

Imagine that though, tanks focusing on max aggro and healers focusing more on...healing. Almost as if that was their role.

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I'm incline to agree with you I just didn't want pitch forks that ppl have on here when you tell them to focus on their actual role lol

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Recently suggested this in a similar thread. Scrap the adventure in need EXP bonus entirely. instead make it a useable scroll type item that players can use on any job they so choose

If you had a scroll (ffxi players might remember things like miramettes memoirs) then you could run the roulette as a tank or whatever job job in need get a scroll and use it for an exp boost on any job you wanted.

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That would be pointless, because then just like PotD, people would just spam whatever gets them the EXP the fastest, regardless if they have the skill.

What is happening is that people simply do-not-want to play tank or healer because they aren't DPS, and they don't like being shoe-horned into a role that doesn't let them kill things quickly. PotD is outright mockery of the gameplay, because now you see people with straight 60's or 70's, and all they did was spam PotD, not play the dungeon content, and the reason they didn't play the dungeon content? Queues, and people being a toxic to each other about how to play the game. People aren't cooperating in PotD they are just running into rooms and letting mobs spawn all around them and if everyone dies, reset progress and start over, at most 15 minutes are lost. Faster than losing 30 from getting a bad team in dungeon content.

What does that say? That says that PotD is bad. It may be fun to do a few times, but it's an absolutely slog to use as a way to grind exp or tomes. SE made a mistake in having this content hand out rewards like candy. It should never have handed out experience. Likewise PvP should never have handed out experience. Now that both hand out more experience than doing the actual content, THAT is why there are queues. It may provide an alternate for DPS to level while there are queues, but what is the point if people don't learn the game mechanics?

What I'd almost suggest at this point is SE release a new healer and tank class and make sure it can NOT be leveled from PotD. Otherwise it will do nothing to solve content queues.

As for what, the answer for tanking is staring us in the face, create a Magitek "tank" job in the same idea that we have with the Magitek mount, only a bit more like D.Va in Overwatch where the player switches between gun-blade (DPS mode) and Tank mode (tank armor mode.) The plot line for this could even be as simple as Cid's Ironworks team creating a Magitek Knight (Tank) job, and the job storyline would involve some solo-instances into Garlean buildings to get the blueprints for thigns.

For Healer, let's look at a non-magic based healer for completeness. We have a one tank that uses MP, we can have one healer that doesn't use MP.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

For Healer, let's look at a non-magic based healer for completeness. We have a one tank that uses MP, we can have one healer that doesn't use MP.

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I wonder if Dancer would be perfect for that. A Dancer healer would be perfect IMO.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I wonder if Dancer would be perfect for that. A Dancer healer would be perfect IMO.

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Dancer healer will get the PT killed. why? because everyone will be looking at the dancer dancing and you you know what ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Healer main.

In short DPS ques are not my problem. Nothing SE can do will fix it outside of making healers actual DPS because hordes of players can't imagine doing anything but damage.

I have respect for good DPS, but it is a human nature problem, not an SE problem.

TBH, que times haven't been too bad for me when I DF as Samurai. Since the simultanious logout thing, they've been popping up at least 10-13 minutes after I quefor me. Before that it was around 20-30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

I'm incline to agree with you I just didn't want pitch forks that ppl have on here when you tell them to focus on their actual role lol

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The entire reason people would have pitchforks is because tanking and healing is very bland in this game if you take away the ability to DPS.

I mean, maybe sitting in tank stance and spamming 1 button on trash is fun for you, but it isn't very fun for me.

The issue with DPS vrs Healer/Tanks is that people do not want to play healer/tanks as they get made good targets for harassment if things go astray. From reading what people have said in the forums about tanking/healing, they are afraid of the lash back they might get if they mess up. But honestly, I've only had two people lash at me for minor mistakes, all my major mistakes that cause wipes have led to people giving me really useful tips. Tanks already have mounts you can get from queuing up as tanks for dungeons, so there are some already in place. It's just the lack of interest from either people who do not like the play-style, or those who are afraid of actually trying because they don't want the heat of possible harassment. Even if it's very rare to happen. At least, from my experience.

This idea reads as "I'm a tank/healer main and i want those faster queue times when i level dps alts"

I have a couple of ideas, just off the top of my head:

* Instead of a 1:1 ratio, where you run as tank/healer once and then get instant DPS queue... how about a 5:1 or 4:1? As in, you queue in Roulette 4 or 5 times as tank or healer, and then you can queue to that same roulette as DPS and get a priority spot?

* Award a daily bonus Commendation, either once per Roulette to the "Adventurer in Need," or once per day to Tank/Healer. In tandem, I would also like the Commendation system revamped. The current rewards for attaining certain milestones of total lifetime Comms are fine, but they could also be a spendable currency to put towards items, gear, convenience bonuses, etc.
Imagine if you could buy an item that gives you a chunk of XP, with Commendation currency. People could easily run an extra dungeon on their Tank or Healer, buy the consumable, and put it toward their DPS alt. This adds more Tanks/Heals into the system, while reducing their need to queue as DPS in dungeons.

Give tanks and healers more tomestones for doing dungeons. Nobody cares about a small gil bonus. If you give people a way to grind faster, you can be sure many will play tank/healer over dps for efficiency

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

But it would lower queue times, not increase them. If someone queues up as a tank in order to get the bonus as DPS, they are then getting 2 more dps through the queue. Then when they do their DPS queue, they skip the line which slows down 1 dps. A net gain of 1 dps has queued faster than before for every DPS that now queues as a tank to get faster queues. If a dps doesn't want to participate they don't have to, but isn't that their problem in the first place? You can complain about high queue times all you want, but if you aren't willing to play either of the roles that are needed, well...tough cookies.

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Net gain of 0 if you consider the healer is also getting an instant queue for their next DPS run.

Why not just make tanks more fun and bad ass? So people will want to play them? I'm new to mmos. But is seems only a few people like tanking.

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Originally Posted by Tronn

Why not just make tanks more fun and bad ass? So people will want to play them? I'm new to mmos. But is seems only a few people like tanking.

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Actually I like that idea....spending the entire boss fight staring at a kneecap and looking at your feet to see if you can reasonably dodge stuff is kind of meh. The only option I can see would be to set a difficulty scale system for dungeons that adds more dps slots to a 4 man dungeon while simultaniously upping hp and/ or mob count. Maybe 4 man minimum, 6 max, have it start when dps queues get overloaded.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Give tanks and healers more tomestones for doing dungeons. Nobody cares about a small gil bonus. If you give people a way to grind faster, you can be sure many will play tank/healer over dps for efficiency

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That just makes them have to queue for less dungeons to get the tomestones they need though...kinda not the point, lol.

Simple and quick fix is to increase party sizes from 4 to 6 just like the party sizes were in FFXI. They knew this was going to happen but they had no idea how bad it would get until launch. If they don't do something then expect players to quit playing the game and move on to other ones that grab there attention.

I think they should add a bonus based on how long your queue wait was. A tank could run expert roulette dungeons at least twice in the time it takes a dps to queue for it once. Fast queue times are already a bonus for tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Tronn

Why not just make tanks more fun and bad ass? So people will want to play them? I'm new to mmos. But is seems only a few people like tanking.

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The thing is dps has the least amount of responsibilty so most people will flock to them, all dps have to do is their rotation and dodge aoes properly. A lot of them can't even do that. Where as tanks have to pull/ hold aggro / tank swap and healers have to keep everyone alive and raise all the idgits that couldn't dodge AoE while dodging the AoEs themselves.

DPS will always have higher queue times, it's only slightly worse now because people are leveling the new dps classes. In a month or two when most people have leveled samurai and red mage then queue times will go back to normal. People just need to be patient. Something MMO players don't seem to have anymore.

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Originally Posted by TheSweetestTart

Hi there. Healer main here.

So the queues have been totally awful since Stormblood's launch because RDM and SAM are super cool and everyone wants to play them, including me, who would love nothing more than to be binging RDM with everyone else. However, the imbalance divide between heal/tank and DPS is so awful that I feel too guilty to really do much DPSing. Seeing all my DPS friends struggle to get queues, I leveled AST first just to help everyone out because I knew how bad things were gonna be in this regard.

I think that they need to add some kind of good noodle star system essentially so that if you play heal/tank you get priority queues if you queue as a DPS afterwards. Kind of a karma balance. Similar to how in LoL, if you support in Draft Pick, you're guaranteed not to be autofilled into a role you don't want and given priority to what you like when you queue afterwards. I think adding something like that might help to make everyone's lives a little less miserable.

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You're so sweet, SweetestTart. You seem like a nice person. But I think the issue is primarily a social one; FFXIV is a social game. Introverts who refuse to speak with other people and befriend tanks and healers, or join Free Companies, are doomed to over-reliance on the duty finder, and long queue times. I'm telling you, Tank players love it, love it, when people ask them to run dungeons for them. It's flattering to the ego and makes them feel useful. But if someone doesn't make the effort to chat them up, what can you do?

I've been playing these games for way too long, and one thing I've noticed is that people just don't chat anymore. FFXIV can be as isolating as riding the train to work. Lots of people are there, but no one says anything. I won't lay the blame completely on the young people, but I will say you guys are way too shy.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

You're so sweet, SweetestTart. You seem like a nice person. But I think the issue is primarily a social one; FFXIV is a social game. Introverts who refuse to speak with other people and befriend tanks and healers, or join Free Companies, are doomed to over-reliance on the duty finder, and long queue times. I'm telling you, Tank players love it, love it, when people ask them to run dungeons for them. It's flattering to the ego and makes them feel useful. But if someone doesn't make the effort to chat them up, what can you do?

I've been playing these games for way too long, and one thing I've noticed is that people just don't chat anymore. FFXIV can be as isolating as riding the train to work. Lots of people are there, but no one says anything. I won't lay the blame completely on the young people, but I will say you guys are way too shy.

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Yeah, I think a lot of players need to make friends with tanks and healers. The fact is the majority of the population prefers to play DPS. That's just how it is.

Well, I personally can be pretty cliquey with my FC and my friends. I'm quite talkative in FC chat, but I don't generally say much outside of it. For me, I won't deny that I'm a shy person, but it's also that I'm somewhat cynical. I've been burned a few times in the past so sometimes I don't feel the effort is worth it.

i think they just need to remove role restrictions for dungeons and roulette's. we seem to be heading that direction any way what with pvp and palace of the dead where there are no restrictions on roles, that way everyone is queing with everybody and its fair for everyone and yea sure there will be wipes with full dps parties or 3 out 4 dps an 1 heal/tank but hey its way betterthan the alternative of waiting 40+mins just to get in