What is this new anti dps healer attitude?

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

yeh ive noticed that to ^^

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Keep asking them to attack and things will get worse.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, you should be holding off Blood Price. Holy spam does significantly more damage than anything a DRK can do. So WHM takes priority.

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Which is fine, but if they would wait to stun until Blood Price wears off, they could go full ham because I will maintain AoE hate generation with Unleash and/or Abyssal Drain instead of having to waste gauge on Delerium, which would better be used with Blackest Night, Bloodspiller, or Quietus. So, you know, wait the 15 seconds, then go nuts.

Oh have the tides have turned.

IMO, I did the first two dungeons as AST, and these folks hit hard.
My attention is pretty much all on healing. Not sure if anyone else noticed though.
Those AoE hits are like 70% of your health. I like that I don't NEED to DPS, makes healing
a bit more fun and keeps me on my toes.

If you keep everyone alive AND contribute dps, then you are doing god's work and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

You are in the right, though I do respect that people are in a different mindset than they were a week ago due to being shaky with their new skills and appreciating the extra healing pillow

Yesterday I had a dark pull from Dojin-maru boss all the way to yojimbos front door. Needless to say there was no way in the world I was going to keep him or anyone else up. I was in i290 gear and a few i310s. He was in mostly i310 gear. What's funny is a DPS went down before the tank did. I said, "did you actually think that was going to work". He said, "Iv done it that way before without a problem." My response was "let me guess, up hill both ways in the snow barefoot as well." One of the DPS got a laugh out of that and we finished the dungeon. This mindless mass pulling mentality is fun to extent but I think the end of HW really spoiled some people in the pacing set for dungeon runs.

Guys, I never said that all mass pullings will work.
Tbh, SOME do work very well. Some others...not so much (yet). Or only if both tank and healer coordinate smoothly with all their cooldowns.

I am actually surprised about the reaction here, I do find plenty of time to DPS as a healer, even while I was only in my early 60s with kinda bad lvling gear.
It was harder, especially on MP and I did indeed dps LESS than before in HW, but nontheless I managed.

How? I use my cooldowns all the time, theres not a single pull where I dont use cooldowns. I use my whole assortment of skills that I have to get as much auto-healing on the tank going as possible, so if the tank also helps
with mitigating I can drop a few nice AoEs here and there. And this is absolutely true for both AST and WHM......SCH may come out on the short end for now.

But without trying to be elitist or anything...If you cant get any dmg out now, then youre either not playing optimally or your whole team is really terribad.

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Originally Posted by Keikun

5 dungeons so far and 4 of them the healer was just dpsing leaving our health at like 20% before he start healing...so yeah now some healers think they are DPS...thanks to you and many other people.

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Whats wrong with 20% health when I know the fight and know I have enough time to heal up? You need to stop panicking over low HP so much.
I have plenty of tools to heal the party up fast enough when I need to. But yeah "thanks to me" they all think theyre dps now. Lol. What a joke.

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Originally Posted by LordLucavi

Which is fine, but if they would wait to stun until Blood Price wears off, they could go full ham because I will maintain AoE hate generation with Unleash and/or Abyssal Drain instead of having to waste gauge on Delerium, which would better be used with Blackest Night, Bloodspiller, or Quietus. So, you know, wait the 15 seconds, then go nuts.

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I dont know what kinda people you team up with,but "going nuts" after 15 seconds where most of the mobs are already dead seems kinda pointless? Im not gonna spam Holy for 2 mobs.
If I have opportunity to go "nuts" on all the mobs after waiting 15 seconds, then oh boy, I have been teamed up with afk 1-button-pushing netflix people. You can hold hate just fine even if it takes 6 seconds more until you can use blood price.
Remember: Holy also stuns. So theyre perfectly crowd controlled for a while.

Aw, that makes me sad. I thought the debate was finally starting to calm down a bit, but I guess with the in rush of new people/returners it was inevitable it would get worse.

I personally, welcome a healer that likes to do damage. I'm not about to shun one that likes to just heal, but my com will go to one that can manage both.

I'm gonna use a very specific situation that might be the reason why people want more heal-only healers. The last 2 SB dungeons I've done, I've had DPS healers. They push for chain pulls, DPS like crazy, and within a few minutes don't have any mana to heal anybody. :P The PLD starts healing (and has to keep healing, not just herself but the DPS that are taking unavoidable damage too) and all I end up thinking is "dude, this is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen. The freaking tank is a better healer than our actual healer."

I love the healers that effectively balance both. I'm not really impressed with the ones that stand around and only heal, but I'm not gonna harass them about it. I reeeally dislike the ones fail at their core job and just mash Stone/Holy buttons for the lols.

Seems that perhaps you would be more comfortable in a dps role that has some healing to occasionally toss out. I would recommend going Red Mage. Then you can do all the damage your little heart desires instead of willfully maintaining the mindset that you should be doing damage first and healing whenever. It seems that the devs are attemping to enforce roles and get away from the mindset of "Zomg, mah deeps, ah NEED mah deeps! IF YER NOT DPSING YER A NOOB OH GOD!"

Though I am sure that mindset will return once we can ridiculously overgear content again, unless the devs keep trending to enforcing the job roles.

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Originally Posted by LordLucavi

Seems that perhaps you would be more comfortable in a dps role that has some healing to occasionally toss out. I would recommend going Red Mage. Then you can do all the damage your little heart desires instead of willfully maintaining the mindset that you should be doing damage first and healing whenever. It seems that the devs are attemping to enforce roles and get away from the mindset of "Zomg, mah deeps, ah NEED mah deeps! IF YER NOT DPSING YER A NOOB OH GOD!"

Though I am sure that mindset will return once we can ridiculously overgear content again, unless the devs keep trending to enforcing the job roles.

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whats wrong with you? Ive been a healer in every MMORPG ive played over the last decade....BUT I've grown to LIKE juggling between healing and dpsing. And I LIKE the fact that I can speed up a run significantly.

Why would I be more "COMFORTABLE" in a DPS role when I manage both just fine? To manage BOTH dpsing AND healing just fine is as comfortable as I can get as a healer! I am really mind blown over your "logic".

Seems more like YOU are not comfortable playing a DRK in a more efficient way tbh.


PS: RDM already lvl 58, it is gonna be a class that Im gonna play for dps for sure. Its nice knowing I can save a party from wiping if we get a baddie healer.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's very, very, easy for healers to DPS now, but it's also revealed how many tissue-paper tanks there are, basically tanks that gear for DPS, not tanking. Also the ones that don't use cooldowns and ones who run with without shield oath still.

I know it's easy to forget about the tank cooldowns, just like it's easy to forget about mana recovery on a healer.

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Yeah, it irks me because I know if I was the one tanking I'd be rotating all my cooldowns and doing a better job.

On the other hand, I'm pretty crap at managing my MP on WHM.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

What is it with this misconception being spread? I can still dps just fine if the tank has somewhat of a clue what they're doing........why would you DISLIKE me helping with dps and speeding up your run? I rarely let people die
because I still manage my healing just fine. All I ask is for you to do your part as well.

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Because they think you should be covering up for their silly mistakes like standing in AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

Now, I know that tanks have gotten a bit more squishy but they can still mitigate very nicely when played properly...so I still see a huge skill gap there.

But if you go for big pulls and then hardly use cooldowns or use them when they arent needed anymore, I will ask you to work on your cooldown management.

And thats when I suddenly get to hear a lot of stuff like "healers heal" and "your dps time is over since stormblood released"....... Umm what? They just removed cleric stance, why would my dps time be over?

What is it with this misconception being spread? I can still dps just fine if the tank has somewhat of a clue what they're doing........why would you DISLIKE me helping with dps and speeding up your run? I rarely let people die
because I still manage my healing just fine. All I ask is for you to do your part as well.

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Let me just correct you on this. My SO tanks. He is a GREAT tank. I don't just say that because he is my SO. When he isn't so great or slacking, I tell him so. I'VE noticed how hard he is getting hit. I asked him if he was slacking. He wasn't.

They ARE using their CD's. They ARE mitigating. They ARE getting hit like trucks.

YOU may want to get used to the stance SE is taking; Healers are HEALERS, not DPS. Healers DPS'ing during runs is basically over. Throwing something out, tank's almost dead. That's YOUR fault. People die while you are DPS'ing, your fault.

SE is hardlining the roles.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

It could also be that the player base doesn't over gear the content anymore and people need to quit playing like they did at the end of HW until their ilvl catches up.

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People never overgeared level dungeons, tanks who mass pull in level dungeons are jerks (its not really hard, but its stressful and pointless because no one is overgeared like in endgame dungeons), im so tired of this tanks, even when they see that the groups aoe dmg isnt enough, they still keep on mass pulling the shit out of the whole dungeon, and usually its the same type of tanks that just pop every cooldown on pull and after that the healers fastlane to zero mp starts.

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

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Your SO may be using his CDs, but from what I've seen from pug tanks (because I play a tank so I pay attention to what they're popping from their status effects), they don't use their cooldowns that much. Like for some tanks you have to let them get to 20% hp for them to pop a cooldown.

However, I do agree that SE has definitely made stuff in dungeons hit a lot harder. I would not say healer DPSing is over. Holy is still awesome mitigation for the beginning of a trash pull.

I also will say I do understand what SE is trying to do in relation to both tanks and healers. I just don't think it meshes well with pugs because you can't force DPS to get good no matter what UI changes you make.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I would rather be safe then sorry. When I have to constantly use Mana Shift on the healer taking away from my DPS, I would consider that a bad thing.

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Healers can heal with practically no MP. I suggest you not use it unless if the healer is asking for it (which means they're probably a bad healer and might need it).

Weird. I've finished the story and I've been spamming dungeons to level my WHM. I always DPS and 90% of the time I get all the coms. Never had anyone complain about my DPS.

I've noticed the tanks taking more damage than usual so I've had to heal more, but this is why DoTs exist, so we can still do damage while keeping up the party. I do give a thumbs up for any healer that can strike the balance without anybody falling from their fault.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I've noticed the tanks taking more damage than usual so I've had to heal more, but this is why DoTs exist, so we can still do damage while keeping up the party. I do give a thumbs up for any healer that can strike the balance without anybody falling from their fault.

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Yeah I mean stuff is hitting harder but I'm still doing best to get in as much DPS as possible while keeping the party up, because the fact is DPS is king in this game. Better DPS = push phases faster, less chances to screw up. Levi EX is somewhat of an exception to the rule.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Weird. I've finished the story and I've been spamming dungeons to level my WHM. I always DPS and 90% of the time I get all the coms. Never had anyone complain about my DPS.

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But the real question is: did anyone die while you were doing it? I'm gonna guess the answer is "no." So of course people will appreciate the added DPS. There are a lot of healers that let their party die out of spite if they don't play to the skill level they demand (and no, this is not meant as a passive-aggressive jab at anyone here. I dunno any of your play styles nor are we likely to party up, I'm just making an observation about my own personal experiences lately).

So at the core this is not about healer DPS, this is about people with low skill levels? Then I think people will either adapt (git gud) or move onto another role. Hopefully anyway.

I'm only 63 WHM but I've had no problems with the new content keeping Tanks alive while i help DPS

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Originally Posted by TheLastDream

I'm only 63 WHM but I've had no problems with the new content keeping Tanks alive while i help DPS

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Have you done the first primal yet? One of its tank busters is crazy powerful.

A lot of things have changed since 4.0, one of the things is you're right Tanks need to manage their cooldowns a lot more in just normal dungeon content. As well as hold up hate.

Looking at this thread, and many others it seems to be the roles have been much more enforced, and while the overall gameplay of some jobs have gotten easier you have to look at this with a clear mind-set.

As a tank we need to be able use our cooldowns, might have to get use to staying in tank stance a bit more than what was being used to in 3.0. Pull less hordes of mobs, pull more threat, take less damage and stay less in DPS stance. Then again, we had a lot of issues with HW for a while so this maybe something that just blows over in a month and we're back on track?

DPS need to use enmity reduction abilities and be ready to lend a hand outside of just destroying stuff. I may ask for a Goad, or a healer may need to have some mana thrown their way. Boosting your party DPS at the right moments. In 3.0 we could do stuff whenever and it never mattered. Outside of top-tier raid content I would just time my Virus b/c I liked seeing the difference.

Healers need to know that their tanks will require more healing, but still if you're able to keep your party alive and do some damage then you're good to go. It's when you prioritize the damage dealing that hurts the party and we wipe, is where it becomes a problem. If you have done that then you have nothing to fear, and you're doing fine.

If you're in a party and are having trouble with MP, ask for some help. No it's not always 100% but now we're getting to a point where we need to play co-op on a different scale. Not just knowing the dance, but having the rare instances where someone needs some MP / TP / help with hate management whether it's a Ninja using their special abilities or a DPS in general using theirs.

We're all held more accountable now it seems, and if we're not careful it's going to hurt. In return hopefully this forces some people to get more into their job. I find nothing wrong with healers damage dealing, I plan to jump on my whm and find that even ground after I'm done with WAR in another level or two.

Folks need to bear in mind, too, that we're back to leveling dungeons after having facerolled Level 60 dungeons for nearly two years. Leveling dungeons, with their level caps and gear that isn't 20+ ilvls higher than the dungeon was built for means that the dungeon mobs really do hit a lot harder and last a lot longer than similar mobs in an endgame dungeon would. The same thing happened in Heavensward - healers have to work HARD if the tank mass-pulls in Sohm Al normal even now, and even the pitiful four or five mobs you can pull at a time on the first leg of the Aery can be a workout.

I'm pretty confident that once we start doing level 70 dungeons with crazy high ilvl gear, we'll be back to the same old same old discussion about lazy healers not DPSing. For now, though, tanks need to be aware that the strict caps on leveling dungeons means that they gotta be a lot more cautious with their pulls and careful with their cooldowns - and healers need to be aware that windows for healer DPS are a lot more limited.

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Originally Posted by Faliandra

Whats wrong with 20% health when I know the fight and know I have enough time to heal up? You need to stop panicking over low HP so much.
I have plenty of tools to heal the party up fast enough when I need to. But yeah "thanks to me" they all think theyre dps now. Lol. What a joke.

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What's the point in letting a tank get to 20% health? You don't need to swap out Cleric Stance anymore. Unless you're planning to use Benediction, you're going to get the exact same utility out of that Cure II at 40% health as at 20% health. What advantage is there in letting health get that low? You're just risking a bad crit for, as far as I can tell, absolutely no gain.

In my view, you should use whatever heal you're going to use next the moment it won't be an overheal. Please let me know if I'm missing a reason to do otherwise.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Folks need to bear in mind, too, that we're back to leveling dungeons after having facerolled Level 60 dungeons for nearly two years. Leveling dungeons, with their level caps and gear that isn't 20+ ilvls higher than the dungeon was built for means that the dungeon mobs really do hit a lot harder and last a lot longer than similar mobs in an endgame dungeon would. The same thing happened in Heavensward - healers have to work HARD if the tank mass-pulls in Sohm Al normal even now, and even the pitiful four or five mobs you can pull at a time on the first leg of the Aery can be a workout.

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I want to second this. A lot of tanks don't seem to understand why mass pulls work. I mean, I see tanks doing big pulls in Copperbell Mines (normal) when no DPS has a single AOE skill. I've also been yelled at while tanking those dungeons for not doing so. So it doesn't surprise me in the least when tanks do the same kind of pull at 30 item levels above the minimum as they do in leveling dungeons. A lot of people seem to play by rote with no actual thought put into why they do what they do.

I haven't encountered it. I've walked away with all of the coms in dungeons more often than not when I play super aggressively.

I have not encountered anti-dps healer players yet; however, I cannot DPS as much as I used to. Tanks seem to be getting hit harder than they were in HW.

I realize a lot of this will probably change with over-gearing but for now it was rough a few fights. There is also a lot more unavoidable AoE damage and Ranged DPS seem to like to spread out more than before I can't hit everyone with my AoE heals. Making me have to heal them separately. I do still DPS, but haven't been able to do it nearly as much as I was in HW.

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Originally Posted by Maku

I have not encountered anti-dps healer players yet; however, I cannot DPS as much as I used to. Tanks seem to be getting hit harder than they were in HW.

I realize a lot of this will probably change with over-gearing but for now it was rough a few fights. There is also a lot more unavoidable AoE damage and Ranged DPS seem to like to spread out more than before I can't hit everyone with my AoE heals. Making me have to heal them separately. I do still DPS, but haven't been able to do it nearly as much as I was in HW.

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I can comment on the ranged part. Especially for BLM at least, I don't like being grouped up with the others because other people attract more AOES, and I don't like AOEs hitting my Ley-lines as well as interrupting my casts. I can do a lot more damage if I stay away from people, so I can turret the boss down.

Many people do not read patch notes or job guides for other roles other than their mains.

They think that since Cleric Stance is now gone, healers can't dps. They do not know that it is not needed anymore since healers damage is based on their Mind status now.

I got people asking for MP/TP, as MCH/BRD I did give them using our new cross-role abilities. But I got bashed because they did not see the old icons and thought that I did not give them what they requested.

I'm not against healer dps, but when I dont get healed for 10 seconds straight and my HP is low and I'm getting heavy damage (doesnt matter the content, trials, dungeons, etc...) the healer needs to stop dpsing and do their primary role. CDs can only help so much.

The problem is we no longer are outrageously overgeared for content. Couple that with class changes and the EA/Launch server issues and you've got a pre-salted playerbase that isn't really interested in any more issues. Everyone just needs to slow it down a little bit for a couple months.

One thing though...if you pull a large group and die in the 2.5 seconds it takes me to cast aero 3 you may need to grab a smaller group. Because even had I been casting Cure youd have been dead before it ended.

WHM Life Matters! WLM!

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I want to second this. A lot of tanks don't seem to understand why mass pulls work. I mean, I see tanks doing big pulls in Copperbell Mines (normal) when no DPS has a single AOE skill. I've also been yelled at while tanking those dungeons for not doing so. So it doesn't surprise me in the least when tanks do the same kind of pull at 30 item levels above the minimum as they do in leveling dungeons. A lot of people seem to play by rote with no actual thought put into why they do what they do.

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I think it helps a lot to play all three roles. But, yes, I agree. I did Brayflox with my FC last night. I was pulling 2 groups at a time and then I realized stuff was taking a while to die. Our composition was WAR, DRG, SMN, WHM. So I ask my DRG friend if he has AoE in here, and he said, nope not until 40. Then I said I was going to do small pulls since it just makes more work for our healer. And he said "GOOD" lol.

It probably doesn't help that DPS tell tanks to pull big but they don't tell them why.

And then, there is the other side. More than once have i gotten critisized for not dpsing with astro, while i was keeping everyone at 100% health at all times and buffing like a crazy person. Yeah...how about no.

I find dpsing with a healer extremely boring , risky and unrewarding. Apart from your tanks getting destroyed, as has happened many times on last trial and in 70 dungs already, when you let a tank very low, he will have to use cooldowns that would have probably been needed at another time. And more importantly, when you let your actual dps on very low amounts of health, their will start prioritizing dodging and surviving than maximizing their dps output. Thats actual huge dps loss just because you wanna cast your crappy malefic/stone or w/e. In late HW, this didnt show that much because of the huge gap in gear, but thats not the case in SB especially with the shift from class difficulty to mobs/bosses difficulty. People need to understand this.

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Originally Posted by Solica

I find dpsing with a healer extremely boring , risky and unrewarding. Apart from your tanks getting destroyed, as has happened many times on last trial and in 70 dungs already, when you let a tank very low, he will have to use cooldowns that would have probably been needed at another time.

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As a main tank I assure you: I'm NOT saving my cooldowns for "oh, maybe something is going to happen...!". I used to do this in early content just to realise that that moment barely ever comes and I ended up without having used most of my skills. A good tank will rotate their CDs excatly to give you as a healer more breathing and dpsing time. No good tank is saving their CDs during a normal dungeon run (with the exception of their respective "oh shit"-button maybe)

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Originally Posted by Solica

And then, there is the other side. More than once have i gotten critisized for not dpsing with astro, while i was keeping everyone at 100% health at all times and buffing like a crazy person. Yeah...how about no.

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Because I don't care if my health is at 100% vs 95% even half as much as I care about shaving a few minutes off the run. Granted, I don't make an issue of it in dungeons, but I do secretly grimace and wish the healer would find it in themselves to be useful.

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Originally Posted by Solica

And then, there is the other side. More than once have i gotten critisized for not dpsing with astro, while i was keeping everyone at 100% health at all times and buffing like a crazy person. Yeah...how about no.

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Buffing like a crazy person, why didn't I think to do this instead of dps?!

Oh...wait...WHM.

If a WHM isn't casting heals dps is pretty much the only thing we can do.

I only get this when tanks decide to speed run the content with massive pulls while the group doesn't have the gear or dps. Well, there was that one monk that told me to heal more, then complained that I was using Medica2 for AoE damage, but whatever. Cross-World blacklists are nice, and I don't have the time or patience for the drama.

The problem for me is, the tanks think I can keep the group alive forever. Sometimes we can pull a rabbit out of the hat, but sometimes there's no saving a large pull. Heaven forbid we slow down a little bit to avoid the wipe.

People are used to running content while drastically overgeared for it, and now they're presented with new content they don't have that advantage on. So everyone's feeling a bit squishier than they're used to and may need the healer to focus on their real job a bit more than they used to have to. It's only an issue if people fail to adapt to that difference.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Because I don't care if my health is at 100% vs 95% even half as much as I care about shaving a few minutes off the run. Granted, I don't make an issue of it in dungeons, but I do secretly grimace and wish the healer would find it in themselves to be useful.

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B-but your Spirits Within damage will go down slightly if you're not at 100% the entire time! :O

Seriously though, if a DPS is at 75%, let the HoTs or ancillary AoE heals top them off. Unless you're a scholar. Then you have my condolences.