How are Tanks holding up from PLD WAR DRK

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I had to re-keybind it to force myself not to hit it in single target out of muscle memory.

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This is hardest thing to do in every expansion tbh :D

overall i compare drk and pld then pld wins but sense i love drk i endure on DRK
So Far.

After nef each time u touch dark passenger on single target is loss. ( DO not ever think using dark arts on this again -4800 mp for that is just not worth that)
Blood Price tied to grit is ok for me but why heck it restore 125 mp per dmg u take when 1 dark arts or 1 abyssal take 1200 mp so basicly u need take 10 hits to get 1 abyssal and 20 hits to make 1 DA. so basicly 5 mobs on you u need ~4s for 1 abyssal and 8s for 1 DA. making that basically completely useless skill new aoe that u can use is no enmity generation resulting.
ITS really hard to keep mobs on tank when u to mass pulls like old time and DA Abyssal is just out of reach never try it u get 1 abyssal and 0 mp after u lose aggro.

Pro side i like 1 DA worth of mp return when you are in grit is nice (this is useful in raid sense because old pattern was 2 delirium 1 DA SE)
what is replaced now with DA SE every rotation bringing total of 2x140 extra potency into regular rotation in grit on.
Bloodspiller feels bit slow and out of place but its just thing need to be get used to and bloodcage sometimes i forget it still.

DMG numbers atm my drk make lower dps it did in HW but i think part of it is due change in STR / VIT to just STR for attack power.

Biggest concern atm is pld out dps DRK and Fix Aoe manna management somehow because multiple mobs fight even if we have most aoes is completely impossible when u have no resources for it.

Overall i will raid whit DRK even if it kills me XD

Been playing WAR since 2.0 and loved him through 3.xx Now though... I think I underestimated the loss of a 360 degree enmity move(flash).
Big pulls are tough to grab as the Overpower cone needs to be positioned properly before moving on. Mine used to be axe throw and then flash as I run through to the next set of mobs. I find myself slowing down and losing a couple rotations to keep aggro on the big pulls (overpower interrupts combos)
Can some folks doing well with WAR help a guy out? What is your pulling habit?

Struggling to get the feel for any changes there might be in PLD rotation. Doesn't seem too much different overall. Trying to find ways to fit the new abilities in. Only issue I have been seeing is group AOE threat generation. Ran Shisui and happened to of course get a RDM and SAM for DPS. I could not hold to save my life, single target (Boss') was fine, but groups I found myself struggling. I feel they will have to do something about RDM and SAM, they are the only ones I've had issues with. I'll pull, scorn, and flash, be then they have a single target ripped off me already. I can deal with one or the other in a party, but both was an absolute nightmare in Shisui.

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Originally Posted by CaptnYesterday

Been playing WAR since 2.0 and loved him through 3.xx Now though... I think I underestimated the loss of a 360 degree enmity move(flash).
Big pulls are tough to grab as the Overpower cone needs to be positioned properly before moving on. Mine used to be axe throw and then flash as I run through to the next set of mobs. I find myself slowing down and losing a couple rotations to keep aggro on the big pulls (overpower interrupts combos)
Can some folks doing well with WAR help a guy out? What is your pulling habit?

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This is the very reason I havent even played warrior yet and just been playin pali , I know ill level it as I love warrior ot. But leveling it in dungeons isnt gona be fun at all and I feel like its gona be alot more sloppy than play with the other two tanks :(



@Crankeh

are you spaming the new aoe , thats what I do until my tp gets low even tho it doesnt build threat if you are constantly hittng them I havent had any trouble wit rdm or sams through the first dungeon.

From my experience which isn't much said the toad by the fire DRK are not the same but WAR are fun at least to me tbh. Dark have alot of unnecessary moves like "dude who invited this guy?" type of moves Took the level i believe 50 move and gave it back with the same name like nothing happen at 62!! If that's not a kick in the balls I don't know what is lol.

I can say now for sure tenacity helps, with 1.1k tenacity felt a lot less squishy and definitely felt I needed to do less overpowers to hold agro which has made tanking dungeons more enjoyable as I can focus on filling the gauge and going deliverence to pop decimate.

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Originally Posted by Dezee

From my experience which isn't much said the toad by the fire DRK are not the same but WAR are fun at least to me tbh. Dark have alot of unnecessary moves like "dude who invited this guy?" type of moves Took the level i believe 50 move and gave it back with the same name like nothing happen at 62!! If that's not a kick in the balls I don't know what is lol.

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Delirium is key to building Blackblood.

The "what do I do with this?" skill is now Dark Passenger.

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

I can say now for sure tenacity helps, with 1.1k tenacity felt a lot less squishy and definitely felt I needed to do less overpowers to hold agro which has made tanking dungeons more enjoyable as I can focus on filling the gauge and going deliverence to pop decimate.

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I friggen LOVE tenacity it's probably my new favorite stat, just hit 70 tonight and I have like 1250 of it gonna try to finish the MSQ tonight and tackle the dungeons and tome grinding tomorrow.

In retrospect to Drk when i posted earlier as I was leveling Blackblood was fun to learn how to use, then when I hit 70 I noticed TBN is very complex and can be used in many situations it makes Drk feel busy all the time which is something that I love I'm always constantly spending my Blackblood and MP balancing them it's never been more fun, I honestly don't miss old Drk it was fun while it lasted but the new Drk i can't put down.

Has anyone been toying with dropping Grit to use Blood Weapon at max level? My main difficulty so far has simply been MP regen, now that BP is... kinda shoddy. Is dropping tank stance for 15s to replenish a viable approach instead?

Lack of Flash as a Warrior really made me rethink my trash handling and especially the opener. Personally i'm always pooling my Beast Cauge for the next trash pack so i have always at least one Steel Cyclone as an opener. It really just comes down to resource management and thinking ahead.

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Originally Posted by Age_of_Oblivion

Has anyone been toying with dropping Grit to use Blood Weapon at max level? My main difficulty so far has simply been MP regen, now that BP is... kinda shoddy. Is dropping tank stance for 15s to replenish a viable approach instead?

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If you feel safe enough to do it, blood weapon, delirium and AD or SE spam is probably your way to go. Make sure you drop a salted earth as well so you can take advantage of that damage bonus.

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Originally Posted by CaptnYesterday

Been playing WAR since 2.0 and loved him through 3.xx Now though... I think I underestimated the loss of a 360 degree enmity move(flash).
Big pulls are tough to grab as the Overpower cone needs to be positioned properly before moving on. Mine used to be axe throw and then flash as I run through to the next set of mobs. I find myself slowing down and losing a couple rotations to keep aggro on the big pulls (overpower interrupts combos)
Can some folks doing well with WAR help a guy out? What is your pulling habit?

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from my understanding because of the change to how stack work you can effectively pull+steel cyclone every time. we lost flash, but now we can effectively do any of our resource abilities multiple times in a row.

Just want to say thank you to all who have written in this forum that u are interested in what my titel said and that u help each other out in my topic, i know for some its a normal day to day basis thing. But still, i appreciate that i dont see provocation or anything else in this forum, thank you.

Anyone using Ultimatum? The new AoE Provoke we got? Was thinking on using it or at least trying, but the 90s CD seems to high for me...
I'm WAR btw.

[QUOTE=Mnemosynia;4214707]As of now the consensus is that WARS are nolonger the best at everything, PLD got buffed to hell so they are great currently the best tank, DRK got nerfed to IMO unplayable status. Enmity Generation feels alot weaker and aoe pulling is alot harder as well give that enmity generation is alot lower. Tank stance is becoming more and more mandatory as well theres less stance dancing you should check the forums and reddit theres alot of detailed replies if you want more info./QUOTE]

I purposely asked here on a one to one conversation as like this I can see how we are holding up, but this topic is more how u guys feel as i always say, tanks are one big familly offside from rivalry, we keep everything alive, but thanks ill check other forums out how people feel about tank atm.

I played Drk at HW launch and played it through all of Midas Gordias and Creator Savage, all the things that drew me to it are gone. Its slow and clunky without all the off gcd's. Im not sure what was done to aggro but im having huge problems holding aggro. The new kit seems to want me to stance dance less and stay in grit. The blackest knight with a white mage's divine benison will not proc, and result in me receiving no blood gauge so i waste a dark arts amount of mana. Dark is too weak compared to paladin which is a lot more damage with none of the risks and 0 consequences since they can get bard mana back to spam holy spirit all day and drk cant get bard mana. Blood price gives a laughable amount of mana back. Also i would like to know what kind of joke Quietus is, I thought they were suppose to thin the less used abilities, not give me more. I dont even have it on my bar. I dont find DRK fun anymore. I will still play it in hopes for improvements in the future. :(
#bring scourge back

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Originally Posted by Xerxus___

I purposely asked here on a one to one conversation as like this I can see how we are holding up, but this topic is more how u guys feel as i always say, tanks are one big familly offside from rivalry, we keep everything alive, but thanks ill check other forums out how people feel about tank atm.

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You do know i answered your question in the same post and said if you wanted more detailed responses there around. I'm not sure if your thanking me or trying to correct me for being of topic or something? But if you at the forums you can easily tell DRKs are not happy at all atm.

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Originally Posted by Mnemosynia

You do know i answered your question in the same post and said if you wanted more detailed responses there around. I'm not sure if your thanking me or trying to correct me for being of topic or something? But if you at the forums you can easily tell DRKs are not happy at all atm.

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Im thanking you.

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Originally Posted by Crankeh

Struggling to get the feel for any changes there might be in PLD rotation.Doesn't seem too much different overall. Trying to find ways to fit the new abilities in.

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The new paladin rotation is pretty awesome honestly, and it has changed quite a bit. For trash pulls with 3+ mobs it's still the standard scorn flash then the new aoe ability a couple times, rotate between mobs doing halone combos so you don't lose threat, but for single target and bosses we have a 2 phase dps system now where you start the fight scorn, spirits within, 1 halone combo and then you hit requiescat into dumping your entire MP pool via holy spirit (5 casts) - you CAN swap to sword oath and pop a ramparte or something here for higher dps but if you're doing current content probably not the best idea. Then your downtime is riot blade combo and shelltron to regain mana before requiescat comes back up. Rinse and repeat. You don't have requiescat yet but it's essentially the same.

Overall, I am doing just fine so far with DRK.

Yes, I feel squishier than before and aggro is a little harder to maintain but it feels the same as when HW first came out and the scaling of power vs. content got reset.

As for the job changes to DRK, I am mostly okay with them. How the job plays has changed up a bit so that takes some adjustment and requires getting over how they used to play in certain aspects and embracing the way they now play (true for all the tanks really).

There are a few adjustments (buffs mainly tbh) that I would definitely like to see though.

- Shadow Wall: Increase to 40% reduction, or decrease cooldown to 120s and increase duration to 15 s. It's always bugged me that DRK's big defensive CD was discernibly worse than WAR and PLD.
- Dark Passenger: Increase potency to 120 and fills Blood Gauge by 10 per hit. This should give a reason to actually use DP over AD in certain situations by forgoing the emnity gain and self-sustain for a dps increase. Over 5 mobs in the pack? DP them and get a free Quietus.
- Sole Survivor: Reduce recast to 90s. Have it place a DoT on target that does 600 potency over 15 seconds. This would give the skill a purpose outside of self-sustain during trash. Also would be nice to drop on to a trash mob that is close to dead, move to the next and let the DoT finish them to get the heal.
- Bloodspiller & Quietus: Make them off-gcd. This would just make them integrate better into rotations by allowing them to be weaved into combos and make them feel smoother, faster-paced and more fun.

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Originally Posted by Vurtney

Lack of Flash as a Warrior really made me rethink my trash handling and especially the opener. Personally i'm always pooling my Beast Cauge for the next trash pack so i have always at least one Steel Cyclone as an opener. It really just comes down to resource management and thinking ahead.

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Doing the same. Yet the enmity given by Steel cyclone seems ridiculous comparatively to 2.x or 3.x. I am not sure that it increases enmity as in the description ... I am very angry againts SE about this point : any people who really played WAR would have known that flash will be missing, since it has 3 uses : saving TP, upping enmity when ennemies are all around you and pulling even if you allready began a combo.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Early days and probably change a bit at higher levels but the oath gauge is slow as he'll to build up in shield. Even with bullwark active. And the loss of half of it when you swap to sword seems to make it almost unusable. Bosses are dead before it fills up.

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you suppose to use holy spirit to build he gause in shield oath, that move generate 20 oath if you are in shield mode

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Originally Posted by Kyt

The new paladin rotation is pretty awesome honestly, and it has changed quite a bit. For trash pulls with 3+ mobs it's still the standard scorn flash then the new aoe ability a couple times, rotate between mobs doing halone combos so you don't lose threat, but for single target and bosses we have a 2 phase dps system now where you start the fight scorn, spirits within, 1 halone combo and then you hit requiescat into dumping your entire MP pool via holy spirit (5 casts) - you CAN swap to sword oath and pop a ramparte or something here for higher dps but if you're doing current content probably not the best idea. Then your downtime is riot blade combo and shelltron to regain mana before requiescat comes back up. Rinse and repeat. You don't have requiescat yet but it's essentially the same.

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Thank you for this. I will try your suggestions out this evening and see how that goes. ^^

Im not particularly in love with either Tank. I have only played Paladin since 4.0 dropped and im not very excited to pick up the other two listening to you guys.

But I have made up my mind that im going to level all 3 tanks and change as the game does. I dont want to have to level/gear up after every patch.

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Originally Posted by Llevron

Im not particularly in love with either Tank. I have only played Paladin since 4.0 dropped and im not very excited to pick up the other two listening to you guys.

But I have made up my mind that im going to level all 3 tanks and change as the game does. I dont want to have to level/gear up after every patch.

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i level all 3 tank, they share equipment anyway, and go with whichever tank getting buff in the next patch, in HW i main WAR but in SB, i change to PLD now with recent update, maybe someday i will use DRK if they buff this job up

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Originally Posted by Lyth

DRK feels incredible at 70. It feels as fast as ever, and definitely has come into its own. The resource management is a lot of fun, and the interaction between Delirium and Blood Weapon/Price is really interesting and has a lot of complexity to it. TBN, quite frankly, is one of the best defensive abilities that I've used, and kind of feels like an on-demand mini-Hallowed. I would definitely reserve judgement on the jobs until you reach max level.

Part of the problem is that with the old (primarily parry based) abilities removed, it initially feels lackluster. But you really have to have all the pieces together to see what they were trying to do with the job. This feels so much better than the old DRK.

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Thank you for this, light at the end of the tunnel!

The fun and complexity of DRK is gone. SE made all the tanks the same and destroyed the fun in using all those skills by taking them away. Tanking felt greater and far apart from DPS because you had a huge amount of skills to use. Now it just feels like a DPS with a 123 combo. Not fun anymore to tank.

70 war here. Dungeons definately arent as smooth as before but its doable. Have both ex primals on farm tanking in pretty much full deliverance making use of shirk and shadewalker aggro isnt a problem, and we have more cooldowns than before so I actually think we are stronger in a MT raid setting now with the proper support rather than being delegated to only OT. The content is pretty easy atm though so I wont make a judgement on overall tank balance until I see the first raid tier, my only gripe is shake it off being worthless and onslaught/upheaval using BG when the other tanks get those skills for free.

I have been enjoying my WAR! Trying lots of different thing to see what works and what doesn't. Stance dancing is a bit different now. Instead of building stacks then switch and dps, now I have been building enmity with butcher's block unchained and onslaught. I make sure I burn my gauge then switch stance to build it back up to 100 the. Do my berserk rotation then switch back :D

Didn't have any issue with enmity except for ppl with higher lv gear. Normally i would do berserk with 2 or 3 steel cyclone then Switch to dps and try to build gauge for the next big pull.

I see this as them giving me a new car and I'm trying to find the best way to drive it :D

I kind of feel like SE wants to lock us in our Tank stance. While we can occasionally change to our dps stance do deal some damage it's always a hassle since DPS seem to generate alot more enmity now which forces us back into our tank stance in dungeons.
By the time I have enough aggro, and used up my gauge to switch to deliverence and THEN build the gauge back up the boss is usally already dead. :|

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Yes, I feel squishier than before and aggro is a little harder to maintain but it feels the same as when HW first came out and the scaling of power vs. content got reset...

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Exactly, relinking this. This point in HW, Alwaysreap & even ARF felt much the same. So people shouldn't be real discouraged, too soon.

Regarding Bloodspiller/Quietus,

I do hope they think of someway to compensate for the GCD push and consequential MP punish. oGCD would be fine, but I'd kind of like to see something more creative because BS/Q being on GCD helps mask the 1 > 2 > 3 monotony of the SE combo.

like Q/BS could reduce the MP cost of next spell/ability, or enable the combo bonus for all/any weaponskills - like Perfect Balance & SAM's similar ability - but for just the 1 following GCD (so skip Hard Slash or Q > SS > ADxX > Q > SS > ADxX etc)

or BS/Q could also extend BW/BP (#ripBP) like Delirium does, or just remove DEL's recast: giving DRK a Q/BS > DEL > Q/BS > DEL higher echelon rotation. Hope to see some added value. MP into Blackblood, Blackblood into MP. Simple concept, hope they go that route.

But more likely SE's 'solution' would be something like, "Reduced the MP cost of Unmend."

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Originally Posted by Atreides

I kind of feel like SE wants to lock us in our Tank stance. While we can occasionally change to our dps stance do deal some damage it's always a hassle since DPS seem to generate alot more enmity now which forces us back into our tank stance in dungeons.
By the time I have enough aggro, and used up my gauge to switch to deliverence and THEN build the gauge back up the boss is usally already dead. :|

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to be honest, i'm perfectly okay with this design. I've always viewed the dps side as more of a soloing/off-tanking thing and if the boss is being killed quickly enough that dps isn't a problem at all then i don't really see a need for all out dps from the tanks either :/

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Originally Posted by Reokotsae

to be honest, i'm perfectly okay with this design. I've always viewed the dps side as more of a soloing/off-tanking thing and if the boss is being killed quickly enough that dps isn't a problem at all then i don't really see a need for all out dps from the tanks either :/

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While that is the case, you can't ignore that there are a ton of tanks out there that enjoy optimizing damage, myself included. For us, 4.0 was a huge step back in terms of our enjoyability to play the role at a high level.

In contrast to what I said in the WAR boycot thread a few weeks ago, I am tanking a bit in Stormblood on the side, since it's a role my friends are in dire need of. It's become something that I utter loathe doing, and pretty much never will unless 2 DPS friends need something run for them. I'd pick DPS 10 times out of 10, queue times be damned, after having tanked for a huge bulk of Heavensward and ARR. SE should not be making decisions that ultimately push away people like me, given how rare tanks already are.

I really feel like a marriage of "tanks should focus on defense dominantly" and "tanks are able to maximize damage" is the only way to go forward. Right now, trying to stance dance just feels horrible.

People need to realize that we lost VIT as a stat for dmg. and we are leveling. You need to work harder to hold enimity due to this as we dont have a 15 ilevel jump from all the mobs.

Penalties for stance swapping are not that bad. You just need to plan around dumping your gauges when u stance swap, PLD can intervention or sheltron just before he swaps, WAR can use IB, upheaveal and such to dump their gauge as they switch. Remember WARS were the only class not to lose anything upon stance dancing in 3.0. It was grossly unfair to DRK and PLD whoi lost a GCD and MP to switch but now the field is leveled.

The DPS tank Meta is pretty much dead at this point and that's not a bad thing. This will require the DPS to actually do their jobs more and not rely on the extra output from Tanks and Healers to meet checks.

Remember WE ARE LEVELING. We do not out Gear content, nothing can be face rolled and we are relearning class systems. Things are going to feel clunky or not right because of the changes. Play get use to it and comment on it later. This isnt 3.0 we are evolving.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

I kind of feel like SE wants to lock us in our Tank stance. While we can occasionally change to our dps stance do deal some damage it's always a hassle since DPS seem to generate alot more enmity now which forces us back into our tank stance in dungeons.
By the time I have enough aggro, and used up my gauge to switch to deliverence and THEN build the gauge back up the boss is usally already dead. :|

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All dps and healers now have enmity tools to help them not pull aggro. Usually if I toss out a few enmity combos I can comfortably go into sword oath for a good while before they start to creep up on me, and if they are paying attention and use their enmity dump it takes even longer.

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Originally Posted by Sipherous

Penalties for stance swapping are not that bad. You just need to plan around dumping your gauges when u stance swap, PLD can intervention or sheltron just before he swaps, WAR can use IB, upheaveal and such to dump their gauge as they switch. Remember WARS were the only class not to lose anything upon stance dancing in 3.0. It was grossly unfair to DRK and PLD whoi lost a GCD and MP to switch but now the field is leveled.

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I've got a pretty big problem with this particular part of your post.

Tanks are in dire demand, that much is obvious. For as long as FF14 has existed, tanks have been the hardest role to fill and always been the most in need. So why, if that is the case, would you deliberately go out of your way to make tank jobs LESS fun to play, by inflicting penalties on WAR's tank stance dance? Wouldn't it make more sense to instead go the other direction, and alleviate all penalties for stance swapping from all 3 tanks?

You say that the DPS tank meta is dead, but that'll never the be the case. As soon as tanks have enough survivability or a good handle on their cooldowns, they'll always try to optimize damage afterwards. It's simply more clunky now than it was in the past, with harsher penalties and a higher barrier to entry.

A lot of tanks really enjoy the play style of optimizing damage. Why would you make decisions that are more likely to push them away?

^ Sums up my feelings as a former career tank.

Ultimately what I would've preferred is if the mitigation and/or aggro control aspect were developed to be more rewarding than bare necessities required for a completion of a fight.

Essentially, if mitigating well or pushing more aggro would reward skillful play with actually impactful effects were designed into the game, I'd wager that "tanks would tank more". So as an example, if I mitigated a tankbuster with more than 50% HP, I would receive a 20% damage boost or something to that effect.

Make tanking rewarding and perhaps, it may please both the "turtle/defenserealtank camp" and the "mindlessdps/tryhard camp".

Aesthetics are there, but without the numbers to back it up and the horrendous gameplay changes (basically braindead) I frankly, lost my fire to tank. You know something is wrong when you don't even enjoy the leveling up and gaining of new skills of your once main class.

With regards to tank dancing yeah its cumbersome but manageable. What really annoys me about WAR is how Infuriate can't be used outside battle. I finally get why they did it after getting the Infuriate trait but I feel that it could be handled better. It would be op as they would be the only Job to have a full gauge on pull if Infuriate was used outside of battle so I get it. What I don't get is how Storm's Path finisher gives 20 gauge but Butcher Block and Storm Eye gives 10 respectively. This is considered a soft nerf to war as we are now forced to use our lowest dmg combo to gain more gauge. If they could change one thing about WAR its that all combo finishers give 20 gauge.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Regarding Bloodspiller/Quietus,

I do hope they think of someway to compensate for the GCD push and consequential MP punish.

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That's called "DPS increase"...