Criticism on Stormblood's Monk

it has its fair change especially with riddle of fire into account,(gives +30% of dps but +15% of weapon speed) and brotherhood+deep meditation to refill your chakras.
But it's not that different, the core rotation is the same (minus the Fracture and Touch of death, but with the malus speed you couldn't set them there anyway)

Riddle of earth is good to save your gl and not braindead, need to get hit to refill chakra but new fight mechanics have loads of push back/ no move, or run away aoe to save the group. riddle of wind is... well so far if you wanna move fast between target or for adds who spam aoe, it could be reworked, but seeing how SE got me good with all the other skills so far... I'll wait for raid

SE really gave it to Monk's this expansion.

We begged for utility, so we receive it, and in exchange we're now the weakest DPS by far.
Then Samurai comes, and takes what should have went Monk's level of damage, and run off with it. We'll never get that identity back btw. It's gone forever.

Seriously things like this is going to end up making me unsubscribe. And I know that sounds dramatic, but the balance is so bad I actually feel like a handicap playing the jobs I love now.

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Originally Posted by edgefusion

I've been a Monk main since the days of beta but I'm finally considering switching to another class with these Stormblood changes. To me, Riddle of Fire feels absolutely horrible to use and more like a debuff than a buff.

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You know what riddle of fire reminds me of? Lightspeed.
It's supposed to feel like a buff, but it's downsides are so bad it feels like a debuff.
Why do we have a downside to this anyway? Other jobs aren't so heavily punished. I don't see DRG losing access to jump when under BoTD or Ninja losing access to huton.
Why does Monk have to lose greased lightning? That's way too big of a punishment for extra damage.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

SE really gave it to Monk's this expansion.

We begged for utility, so we receive it, and in exchange we're now the weakest DPS by far.
Then Samurai comes, and takes what should have went Monk's level of damage, and run off with it. We'll never get that identity back btw. It's gone forever.

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Samurai SHOULD outdamage mnk, would have been quite unforgivable if they hadn't made it so. Samurais were portrayed as ver strong and noble warriors. Deadlier than their drg and mnk counterparts for sure within a comparative range.

I am hearing conflicting opinions, people at 70 say it's not so bad, debating on leveling mnk or Drg to range70 after sam. So people find fists of wind questionable?

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Originally Posted by DatPotato

Brotherhood buff everyone... you only get chakra from physical dps... guys... pleaaaaaaase test it at 70 on last instances

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Tested and this is false. The damage buff is not for everyone it is only physical, There is around a 4-5% difference between a min and max hit for any skill. Tested with a blm casting fire IV as a bigger potency move would be more easy to see if the 5% affected it, the hit range was from 6800 (lowest hit i saw) to 7300(highest hit) With brotherhood buff however I still saw a lowest hit of 6800, which shouldn't be the case at all. Also, it does say on the tooltip that brotherhood only affects physical dps and that chakras are weaponskills. So any damage increases you were seeing from magical were not from brotherhood
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I'm currently hitting around 3800 on a dummy at i298 with i320 weapon and SAM is currently doing around 4100~ taking into affect the DoT isn't being calculated properly in ACT still. So possibly 4200-4300 when ACT can track it properly. If Brotherhood buffed the whole raid instead of just physical or hell even the monk itself, it would put Monk about equal with SAM or maybe, just maybe slightly ahead. Also in my run i got 3800 I managed to get 4 Forbidden Chakras in 3 mins which was relatively good RNG. Still not a fan of what they've done to Monk but the numbers aren't as bad as I was expecting

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Samurai SHOULD outdamage mnk, would have been quite unforgivable if they hadn't made it so. Samurais were portrayed as ver strong and noble warriors. Deadlier than their drg and mnk counterparts for sure within a comparative range.

I am hearing conflicting opinions, people at 70 say it's not so bad, debating on leveling mnk or Drg to range70 after sam. So people find fists of wind questionable?

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Sam even with his "selfish dps" status shouldnt be outdping everyone else by 15-20% more. Monk on HW was overtaken by Drg because the battle lethany + piercing debuff was much better than the 2-3% extra damage the Monk had over Drg. Right now Sam is on the opposite extreme: bringing him is a no brainer since no ammount of utility can cover such huge damage gap .

Please dont bring "strong and noble", in game 7 chakra monks were already considered superhuman, and by Heavensward monks had reached 14 which makes them living weapons on almost demigod level. Gameplay is not equal to descriptions

Samurai HAS to out dps us, the only fair utility they have is slashing debuff but war and nin already have them.
dunno about their lore or anything and honestly I don't really care.

we have a +5% raid buff. +20% raid recovery, with all the aoe mechanics, survivability, as monk we're high.
with riddle of wind, we're prolly the only classe with a double stun which can reach two separated target at once without sacrifying a cross-role for it.

Parsers aren't event out yet and you're all saying we have a slow dps, when I see my 6k bootshine or how fast Brotherhood fill chakra, and with riddle of fire+gl3 the damages are far far better than HW.

I'm happy with monk atm

OK I think I got their logic for tackle mastery. Wind is for gap closing long distances since it movement based. Earth is defence so knockback for mobs when low hp. Fire is dmg so dmg buff. Not saying it's great but think that is the logic.

Yeah this was my bad, french tooltip only says damages, and I don't trust the english job guide... too many mistakes (all positional translated as rear...) japaneses however says physical, my apology.

Now, why you guys want so much to be above SAM?

We have better survivability, have dual stuns and don't even need get the cross role for it.
riddle of wind allows us to cover larges distances.

Mantra is coming back.
Brotherhood is far from useless either.

and our dps didn't stagnate. I'm ilvl 306 now and it's nowhere as bad as many of you guys are saying it is.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Sam even with his "selfish dps" status shouldnt be outdping everyone else by 15-20% more.

Please dont bring "strong and noble", in game 7 chakra monks were already considered superhuman, and by Heavensward monks had reached 14 which makes them living weapons on almost demigod level. Gameplay is not equal to descriptions

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Pretty sure Sam at 70 isn't out doing mnk or Drg by 15-20% or anywhere close to that. Drgs can channel the power of dragons, which would put them at that level as well, since dragons (the powerful ones like nidhogg) were absolutely feared and unquestionably powerfull. The jobs have fleshed out stories to them, give samurai time to also have fleshed out stories through 3 iterations of the game. I'm also excited to see drgs job questions through this expansion.

So from the 70 sam's that I have played with in both Susano EX and Lakshmi EX have not out dpsed monks. I do not know if this is due people not knowing the ins and outs of Sam's yet. But Mnks are still doing about 100 more dps than them.

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Originally Posted by TrophyGalore

So from the 70 sam's that I have played with in both Susano EX and Lakshmi EX have not out dpsed monks. I do not know if this is due people not knowing the ins and outs of Sam's yet. But Mnks are still doing about 100 more dps than them.

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Do you have a way to correctly record damage at this time? I haven't seen anyone who was able to yet.

That is me using the ACT beta version that is out. And I do believe that it is calculating everything properly.

Yeah, I fucking HATE the how monk got hit fucking hard. Samurai is fucking ridiculous.

I have yet to reach level 70, so I'll reserve any final judgement until after I hit the level cap and mess around with all the available abilities. However, playing as a monk so far has felt very unsatisfactory.

As the OP and several others in the thread have mentioned, "Tackle Mastery" and the variations of "Shoulder Tackle" based on your current stance are pretty pointless. For example, even if you were to use "Riddle of Wind" and tackle to two enemies far apart, is that useful in a dungeon or raid? You'd be the first to generate enmity and likely die. While the concept is very nice, the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

I remember reading/hearing that YoshiP wanted to close the gap between the DPS output of hardcore and more casual gamers. From a business perspective, making FFXIV more accessible is a sensible strategy. I imagine it's because of this "close the gap" ideal that we (and several other classes) lost DoT skills.

And while we're on the topic of viewing FFXIV holistically, I think Square Enix should strive to balance all the DPS classes so that they output the same amount regardless of which job you chose. This way, a player won't feel like s/he has is punished for choosing a class that has less than desirable damage output.

If there were a way to reach out to Square Enix and have them take another look at MNK, I'd suggest a few changes.
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SHORT TERM:
These are some things I feel like Square could change within a 4.x patch. Should be easy enough to do tuning numbers and not having to mess with the resource UI (see LONG TERM).
- Give Greased Lightning (GL) stacks an additional stat buff that increases our Critical Hit Rate. While this wouldn't address the obvious blunder of making MNKs rely on RNG, it would certainly help in allowing us to crit more often (and hopefully quicken Chakra stack generation). I think it'd be fair to have each stack of GL grant a 5% crit buff, totaling at 15% at 3 stacks

- Reduce the cooldown of "Perfect Balance" to 80s (which is the current cooldown of "Meikyo Shisui"). I welcome any argument that can be made for SAM to have the same skill MNKs at ~1/3 of our cooldown cost.

- Balance "Steel Peak" so that it has either a higher potency (let's say *minimum* 250) while retaining a 40 second cooldown OR keep the current potency and reduce the cooldown to 15 or 20 seconds.

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LONG TERM:
So, thematically speaking, it makes absolutely no sense for MNKs to have anything to do with RNG. Hell, gambling is blasphemous in some religions, which transitions to the first change:

- Overhaul "Deep Meditation". Make it so that a "True Strike" or "Demolish" will *guarantee* a Chakra stack. This will force MNKs to go through 5 rotations of Opo-opo > Raptor > Coeurl, but at least this way, Square can increase the potency of "Forbidden Chakra". I think it'd be cool to see "Meditation" removed in lieu of another damaging ability, although keeping it wouldn't hurt either.

- Increase the number of Grease Lightning stacks to 5. It should also go without saying that the bonuses for each stack be tuned down. I think a fair total would be 35% total increase in damage, 20% total reduction in autoattack/weaponskill/recast delay (this is an overall 5% increase in total for both damage and delay reduction). I think it's fair to say that the bread and butter of MNKs is GL, so why not focus around it? To make things even more interesting, maybe have the stacks fall off one at a time. At the same time, make it so that maintaining 5 stacks of GL requires a bit more skill. For example, reduce the duration of 5 GL stacks to 8 seconds. A good monk should be able to keep it up, but if they fail once, they don't lose everything.

- Overhaul "Shoulder Tackle" so that either it has: Low/no potency short cooldown OR moderate potency with high TP cost. Since monks suffer from having no ranged attacks, allow them more mobility at the cost of damage or TP. It's either that or give them a Hadouken skill (which I would not be opposed to lol). With every physical DPS class having a ranged attack (albeit not very efficient ones), I think it'd be fine for MNKs to keep to the tradition of being purely melee with this new tackle.

- Change the effects of the different Fist stances. For example, let "Fists of Fire" adopt the effect of "Riddle of Fire". Increase total damage dealt by 30% at the cost of -15% weaponskill recast for 20seconds. Let "Fists of Wind" do something like increase weaponskill recast by 50% and reduce damage dealt by 20% (or some balance thereof) again for a 20 second duration. And lastly for "Fists of Earth" maybe do something along the lines of: extend GL stack duration by 5 seconds and remove any current debuffs. Of course all of these would share at *least* a 90 second cooldown.

- Tornado Kick: I actually don't have any idea on how to fix this, but if I had to guess, maybe just make the potency 700-800 so that the skill might be able to justify losing your stacks. Or maybe have the potency scale depending on how many stacks you have but without consuming them. For example, at 3 stacks, it'd do 400 potency. At 5 stacks, maybe 600. Maybe put it on a 100 or 120 second cooldown as well (since you're not consuming GL stacks).

I'd love to know what your thoughts on these suggestions are!

I was thinking for the wind being double they should just increase its range making it a bigger gap closer.

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Originally Posted by Orbiaus

I was thinking for the wind being double they should just increase its range making it a bigger gap closer.

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And for earth mastery just make it a longer duration stun to recoup hp. Can't edit on phone btw.

Deep meditation is ok trait not something you can plain on being up at key moments in fights though it more like use it once it's up. Brotherhood makes it better though if like spamming it as long as you grease lighting doesn't falls off.

The tackle system is kinda meh ok but could done better earth knock back imo is pointless unless you PvP. I have made it cause a aoe dot instead for pve. Wind the double use is good if with riddle of wind perhaps increase ws/auto att speed at the cost of more tp consumed. Fire feels like it good were it stands increase damage at normal rates. /Shurg job not broken would say needs some more thought put into it though imo

I've yet to play monk to 70, but based on what I've read it seem like you've hit the main points fairly well. I've given up on having Stormblood being the "Monk" expansion, but I was hoping they would at least be a prominent melee DPS role, instead of staying in the back burner like they were in Heavensward.

Actually there were a lot of class changes I don't agree with in the new expansion, but that's a thread for another time.

Echoing a few other monks here on the forum, all I can say is just wait -when you ding 70 it will all come together. Trust me! The amount of crit hits that rain down is freakin mind-boggling. And I'm not even at i300 yet. Plus, having access to way more Forbidden Chakra is just icing on the cake. And that is why MNK is still on top of the DPS chart over SAM because SE knows what it's doing (as hard as that is for some to believe).

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Originally Posted by JinRoSul

Echoing a few other monks here on the forum, all I can say is just wait -when you ding 70 it will all come together. Trust me! The amount of crit hits that rain down is freakin mind-boggling. And I'm not even at i300 yet. Plus, having access to way more Forbidden Chakra is just icing on the cake. And that is why MNK is still on top of the DPS chart over SAM because SE knows what it's doing (as hard as that is for some to believe).

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The only downside I have is that our DPS is going to be dependent on luck, at least a little bit. I've gotten 10 crits in a row before without a single chakra stack. Sadly that RNG may make or break fights depending on how close things get.

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Originally Posted by JinRoSul

Echoing a few other monks here on the forum, all I can say is just wait -when you ding 70 it will all come together. Trust me! The amount of crit hits that rain down is freakin mind-boggling. And I'm not even at i300 yet. Plus, having access to way more Forbidden Chakra is just icing on the cake. And that is why MNK is still on top of the DPS chart over SAM because SE knows what it's doing (as hard as that is for some to believe).

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i am plaiying at 70, even whit brotherhood and deep meditation i still hardly get any chakra stack, usualy it takes me around 3 minutes to see the 5 chakras refilled, and that what i see tons of crits, me luck is bad

only 3 times so far i have seen i got the 5 chakra stacks on less of 5 seconds

personally i wish they could just not relly on rng to make job mechanics, is bad design

You do? That's beyond bad luck. I did susano'o EX or even à dungeon with just another dps physical and tank and I'm usually able to do at least 2 TFC during brotherhood window. Only thing I could say is seek Crit gear maybe? Or it was very very very sick misfortune at lvl 70. To have 180 sec for a TFC

So I'm 70 now and I tried stacking Crit to the point i had over 1500 crit rating. I still only see 1 forbidden chakra every 3 min or so and typically in dungeons with a samurai and a tank I get about 2 chakra per brotherhood not 2 forbidden chakra. 2 chakra.

DPS is real lackluster. Gonna try stacking skill speed for a bit see if thats better cause stacking crit bad. Really considering changing mains.

Not even 70 and I find myself getting several chakra from random mobs my level in the field. In dungeons I get a lot because of AoE. If you have IR and use Arm of the Destroyer + Rockbreaker (With the ideal 5+ enemies), you'll be wishing Purification had a shorter CD.

Still not looking forward to Tackle Mastery. :/ But I am getting hype for finally getting Brotherhood. For the first time, I wanna get good ass gear and stack SkS and Crit for constant Big Damage.

Will update my opinion as I level.

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Originally Posted by JinRoSul

... And that is why MNK is still on top of the DPS chart over SAM because SE knows what it's doing (as hard as that is for some to believe).

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Sorry to say this but no, SAM has a crazy DPS, higher than monks... I'm not the best monk ever obviously, but, I know my job and I knew the fight I did yesterday with a SAM (Susano Ex).
The SAM was outdpsing us (we were two monks in the party), even when I had 'luck' and got many FC along with few mechanics to deal with, close to 100% GL3 uptime (only lost it once for the sword phase), positionnals done correctly and Demolish applied all the time, the SAM was on top for every kills (and the RDM far behind btw...).
So yeah, we've probably lost our spot on top of the DPS chart...

Was this taking Brotherhood into account at all? I can't help but feel that would close the gap, ironically more so with the Sam being there.

Well I seriously doubt we Monk can come close to à Sam to be honest, saw that pic of à Sam doing à 43k direct Crit (that's more than à LB1) but people are so quick to react and forget one thing. When raid will come, people are going to see à massive wave of readjustment.

TL;DR : everyone should Brace themselves for a wave of potential nerf incoming

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Originally Posted by Fireselecta

Sorry to say this but no, SAM has a crazy DPS, higher than monks... I'm not the best monk ever obviously, but, I know my job and I knew the fight I did yesterday with a SAM (Susano Ex).
The SAM was outdpsing us (we were two monks in the party), even when I had 'luck' and got many FC along with few mechanics to deal with, close to 100% GL3 uptime (only lost it once for the sword phase), positionnals done correctly and Demolish applied all the time, the SAM was on top for every kills (and the RDM far behind btw...).
So yeah, we've probably lost our spot on top of the DPS chart...

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We've definitely lost our top spot on the chart. If this is to be believed we're not even 2.....or 3, or 4, or 5. In Heavensward people didn't want us because although we had the personal DPS we didn't bring the raid utility. In Stormblood we don't have the personal DPS and we don't have enough raid utility.

Correct, Riddle of Fire is poorly designed. The % loss in speed makes me only use it if I have several of my burst skills ready.

In another thread I suggested that RoF could be changed like this:
RoF makes all your weaponskills grant a GL stack + increase weaponskill speed. Now you can actually use Tornado kick without popping PB or wait for situation.
Or simply make it so TK doesn't deplete your GLs + increase skill speed while RoF is active.

Riddle of Fire could have been a reverse Embolden, where it grows in +%dmg every X seconds (through stacks) until you take damage or until the buff runs out. It makes the ability greedy, and requires good timing for it to shine. Pop it at a bad time and you'll drop the damage buff. Use it sometime safe and you'll get a tasty boost.

Riddle of Earth could have been a counter thing, where taking damage makes the monk counterattack with Haymaker or even a ki-strike if you'd want monk to have a ranged counter.

Riddle of Wind could have made Wind Tackle reach longer, and deal damage based on distance travelled. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Eisenhower

Riddle of Fire could have been a reverse Embolden, where it grows in +%dmg every X seconds (through stacks) until you take damage or until the buff runs out. It makes the ability greedy, and requires good timing for it to shine. Pop it at a bad time and you'll drop the damage buff. Use it sometime safe and you'll get a tasty boost.

Riddle of Earth could have been a counter thing, where taking damage makes the monk counterattack with Haymaker or even a ki-strike if you'd want monk to have a ranged counter.

Riddle of Wind could have made Wind Tackle reach longer, and deal damage based on distance travelled. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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These all sound like great ideas, but it just makes me sadder to face the reality of what we got.

I would have liked, if tornado kick stayed at 30 seconds cooldown, but was a "requires 5 chakras and 3 greesed lightning stacks to use" without consuming the greesed lightning stacks.

i absolutely hate Riddle of fire, its so contradictory, it feels like losing your GL stacks when you use it.
Riddle of earth is also quite useless. It works on Susanoo for the phase transition but dont work for Lakshmi for exemple...
With the TP reduction for most skills, you can now spam AOE all day during dungeon but other than that, i can't help but feels like monk is BORING to play compared to Heavensward's monk.

I kinda regret leveling monk first this time.

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Originally Posted by Sarutobi_Daritobi

I would have liked, if tornado kick stayed at 30 seconds cooldown, but was a "requires 5 chakras and 3 greesed lightning stacks to use" without consuming the greesed lightning stacks.

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Wouldn't you need to change Forbidden Chakra too then, as this would render it useless. Unless you could squeeze in 1 extra during those 30 secs.

Seen a lot of suggestions put forward in this thread, some good - some clearly OP. This is my first time ever suggesting anything. Not sure what'll come of it but here it goes:

The new Monk abilities in Stormblood are a step in the right direction but are falling short of where the changes in Heavensward brought us. In Heavensward they saw the weaknesses of the Monk class and applied that to the design of our abilities. Tornado Kick and Form Shift are utterly fantastic additions and really strengthened the core concept of building and maintaining GL - and offering us a dump option for pauses in the fight.

Stormblood has identified lingering weaknesses and tried to address them, but they are either not enough or add caveats for unknown reasons (Riddle of Fire attack speed loss). I feel something along the lines of the following suggestions could help nudge the Monk class forward.

Fists of Fire:

At level 62 make the 5% damage increase a trait and change Fists of Fire to allow Bootshine to an extra 5-15% chance to trigger Deep Meditation. This will help with bad streaks of rng-dependent since Deep Meditation is based on two sets of rng (one for crit, one for chance off the crit).

Riddle of Fire:

Remove or reduce the skill speed loss and lower the damage buff accordingly. Allow for the usage of Tornado Kick without losing Chakra. Increase Tornado Kick cooldown to 20 seconds so it can only be used once.

Monks aren't a class that needs to hit hard. It's what we're told the very first time we speak to Hamon when we apply to join the pugilist guild. A hundred blows for every one of theirs. Giving Monks such a sudden drop in attack speed goes against everything we've played since 2.0.

The skill itself is a great concept though, burst for when we need it / replacement for Blood for Blood that we lost - it just needs tweaking because having the brakes suddenly slammed on is detrimental to the Monk playing style.

Fire Tackle:

Bigger potency - no stun. Choices are needed. A reason to be in one stance over another. Plus we get a Role specific stun.

Fists of Wind:

Movement speed unchanged. It's very niche and nigh useless, but it does offer a choice when mechanics are involved and choice is good.
Additional Effect: Lowers the GCD of Form Shift to that of Meditation.

Riddle of Wind:

Instantly adds 5 seconds to the GL timer and...
Resets cooldown of what is now Wind Tackle...

Wind Tackle

...on use effect: Adds 5 seconds to the GL timer and 3 seconds to our current form (coeurl, raptor, opo-opo...)

Shares a cooldown with Riddle of Earth to avoid exploitation

This will, at most, give 10 seconds of GL, but staggered, unlike Riddle of Earth which gives a bulk amount of GL at once. This offers the MNK a choice between Fists of Wind or Earth.

Giving 3 seconds on our form timer will also save us from moments where we get to an enemy with 1-2 seconds of GL left but the GCD from the shoulder tackle prohibits us from performing Demolish or Snap Punch.

Fists of Earth

Same. It's a solid skill for boss mechanics where we no longer can hit the boss.

Riddle of Earth:
Keep this the same. If Fists of Wind is changes in any way to reflect the suggestions then the relationship between Fists of Wind and Earth becomes more entwined and allows for more adaptive playing style.

Earth Tackle

Increase stun to 4 seconds since Fists of Fire (in this suggestion) lost the stun.

Brotherhood

Love this skill. Not going to offer improvement as I haven't raided yet. But I wanted to close on a positive and this skill is inspired.

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Originally Posted by DatPotato

You do? That's beyond bad luck. I did susano'o EX or even à dungeon with just another dps physical and tank and I'm usually able to do at least 2 TFC during brotherhood window. Only thing I could say is seek Crit gear maybe? Or it was very very very sick misfortune at lvl 70. To have 180 sec for a TFC

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a lot of the lvl 70 striking gear has crit, i still get low amounts of chakra stacks even whit that gear, no matter what is said, rng is a bad mechanic, because some people will get lucky and get tons, and others(like me) gets unlucky and takes a lot of time to get enough stacks to do 1 tfc

That feeling when you crit with full chakra. :')

Is Steel Peak completely pointless and/or useless now? I can't come up with a reason to put it in a rotation or even keep it on the hotbar. Am I missing something?

As near as I can figure...leaving it there as a form-independent instant 150 atk with 40s cooldown is maybe supposed to be the replacement for haymaker? Haymaker was much better for solo play because it had no cooldown; you could use it whenever you dodged an attack, and you'd get a bunch of dodges with featherfoot or against low level mobs and you could spam it. I mean you still didn't really need to use it, but at least it made sense. This new steel peak with 40s cooldown just seems pointless to me.

I want to throw my two cents in on this too. I've honestly popped brotherhood a few times and gotten 0 chakra procs from them. Had a 70 run with another monk earlier in the week, they had 200 less critical stat than me but was dropping about three times the forbidden chakras. So it was super frustrating.

Additionally Brotherhood is a "one time" buff, not an aura. I've had several cases where I've had problems catching people in range due to the size of the field/choice in direction they dodge aoes in, especially ranged dps.

Furthermore this is a bit minor, but I REALLY wish there was some self indicator to when brotherhood is going to fall off. There's no indicator except looking at your party members buffs.