Tanks and healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

Game is too complex, you be shocked on the DPS difference on the same job just because of slight differences of what order do things in, when to use abilities, and so on.

---

So you're kinda agreeing with me but for different reasons.

You're saying it is too complex for the subpar DPS to handle their own jobs, thus the tank and DPS need to do it for them...

My point is that I should not be in that position. It's not the role I picked. The people who did pick it should learn how to play their own role better rather than expecting the other people to play two roles good so they can slack off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DamianTenbe

My whole point is that I'm fine you don't want to stance dance but don't take away that possibility from me. I feel that you can play however you like but forcing some set playstyle isn't something that I like. Pretty much I get less options on how to approach the game. Stance dance isn't maybe something that great for healers since its only 1 button and not much change at all but tanks lost a lot at this point.

---

That's cool, but how would you design that toggle so it is both viable and equal, because as long as it isn't there will be strife.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

For the expecting you dps because of bad dps, I do not get why that is said. Healers should dps in this game because there is nothing else to do, it is just expecting the try and same effort.

---

This. It kinda grinds my gears when I see "I have to dps as a tank/healer because the dps are bad". DPS being good and tanks/healers contributing to damage are *NOT* mutually exclusive. Does it sometimes feel that if I am not doing damage then no one is? Sure, but there are also a lot of times where *everyone* is on point and we finish the dungeon lightning fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makeda

So you're kinda agreeing with me but for different reasons.
thus the tank and DPS needto do it for them...

My point is that I should not be in that position. It's not the role I picked. The people who did pick it should learn how to play their own role better rather than expecting the other people to play two roles good so they can slack off.

---

It has nothing to do with this, have you tried to max a DPS job? It is not easy to do and some jobs are effected if your ping is over 100ms. Some people you are right, I am not talking about that though, I was poking at the design flaw that they are trying to change in 4.0 and it was biggest with MCH an BRD. In 3 different videos of "give me healing advice" in that closed thread, all had bad bards.

I am not saying healers need to DPS because DPS are bad at their job and too complex for the average player. I said healers should DPS because that is all you do outside pressing 1 button a minute. You DPS if you have good dps or bad ones. Because most of the time DPS are mashing buttons, they just do not know they are doing it in the wrong order. I told a few people their DPS was off and the comments I got was ""It is just expert no one cares" " you are the first one to say something" (implies they did not even realize they are actually bad.) It is a whole different thing to suffer performance because the game is coded badly for over 100 ms or hitting wrong order because it is convoluted what to do say like MCH and BRD and pushing a button a minute.

In this game we do not have things to heal or support abilities to give out, so your "support" to help things die faster is not from buffing others, but releasing your own damage.

This is also off the point why I was trying to explain why people say remove cleric and keep tank stance dancing. At the end of the day that failure to read action is most determinantal when it happens to cleric stance, everything needs fixing though, it is misplaced blame ( the ability itself, ignoring all abilities act like that)

"If I wanted to DPS I would play DPS" is the most idiotic self entitled line I've ever seen in my life.

If it is within reason for you to do more than your bare minimum role, why not? It is not about covering the asses of others, but what more YOU could bring to the group.

"It's not my problem, they should just do better so I can cruise along being a leech."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maliki_Ozari

I'm happy that you enjoy stance dancing. I do not. I've played a healer since the game released (on and off, I take breaks here and there) and the thing that turns me off the most is stance dancing. It's not because I don't want to dps, I have no problem throwing out some damage as I like to contribute the most I can. My problem is that toggling CS just feels clunky and awkward.

---

Because it IS clunky. Healers that have been raiding for ten years complain to me about it and it's for good reason. The concept behind Cleric stance is sound, but its clunky and honestly unnecessary. In stormblood you will be able to freely DPS without having to rely on cleric stance as a proxy.

Also if people don't want to DPS they can simply..not? You don't "have" to DPS if you don't want to. Just stand there and look pretty. Most people don't really have a problem with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

"If I wanted to DPS I would play DPS" is the most idiotic self entitled line I've ever seen in my life.

If it is within reason for you to do more than your bare minimum role, why not? It is not about covering the asses of others, but what more YOU could bring to the group.

---

See that's how you start things. Is it illegal to just enjoy the game how you would like to? This game is not competitive outside of raid content, so your feelings of always doing your best seems a bit misplaced to me.

At the end of the day, no one can Make you DPS, the end!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FallenWings

"If I wanted to DPS I would play DPS" is the most idiotic self entitled line I've ever seen in my life.

If it is within reason for you to do more than your bare minimum role, why not? It is not about covering the asses of others, but what more YOU could bring to the group.

"It's not my problem, they should just do better so I can cruise along being a leech."

---

So kick the other heal or have them play a DPS and just solo heal it, a 5th DPS is always better that a DPS healer.. Any day ^^, you can bring more to the the group by soloing healing so a 5th DPS can be there, they out DPS a healer hands down.

Update: My Husband solo heals a lot of endgame, he hates dpsing on healer, but will do it if there time and he won't get someone killed, he like to heal over dpsing. To him it more fun then just hitting a combo over and over again. Most of the time our 2nd healer will just pure DPS, or play there DPS job because there heals are not needed.

At the end of the day it up to each group and player to make it work, not everyone plays the same.. You can't make someone do it your way just because it works for you or that how you do it. there is no one way to clear something in FFXIV. You fine what work best for your group/team/party/FC and run with it.

Where's the guy with the Internet Hug tag? I feel like everyone in these threads needs a giant bear hug.....some with a chair, perhaps.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coatl

See that's how you start things. Is it illegal to just enjoy the game how you would like to? This game is not competitive outside of raid content, so your feelings of always doing your best seems a bit misplaced to me.

---

It's because you're playing with other people, and more importantly in a team game. If I wanted to jerk off in a sandbox with no consequences, I should probably play a single player game. Probably GTA V or something I don't know.

It's just weird to not play to win. Especially when others are relying on you and their enjoyment of the game is also reliant on your performance.

So if I were to play soccer with my friends, I'd do my best to help them score a goal rather than just kick the ball in some random direction.

Healers should DPS when the situation is stable enough and/or calls for it. Simple enough. It is not about if your DPS is good or bad, if your tank is good and doing their job properly in mitigating damage then go into DPS mode while keeping an eye on the tank. The faster things die the faster the run goes and the more efficient you will be.

I will miss cleric stance dancing, while it was sometimes an issue where it would not report properly that it was off it did however basically state to the other healer, or anyone else who was paying attention to party buffs, that you were swapping into focusing on DPS. It was also in a way a nice mental gear shift, but I understand it is not that way for everyone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TankHunter678

I will miss cleric stance dancing, while it was sometimes an issue where it would not report properly that it was off it did however basically state to the other healer, or anyone else who was paying attention to party buffs, that you were swapping into focusing on DPS. It was also in a way a nice mental gear shift, but I understand it is not that way for everyone.

---

Personally, I'm looking forward to the greater fluidity without cleric stance. I've never been a fan of DPSing while healing as I'd rather SE give healers something else to do to fill up healing downtime, but since that isn't the current design I'd rather spam Malefic than do nothing. I'm looking forward to being able to DPS during downtime if I want without worrying about a buggy stance dance causing unintended problems.

When people make these threads instead of posting in the many many many many existing ones.

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xt/518...229&s=1&b=QzEz

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coatl

See that's how you start things. Is it illegal to just enjoy the game how you would like to? This game is not competitive outside of raid content, so your feelings of always doing your best seems a bit misplaced to me.

---

"The problem isnt healer should dps vs shouldn't dps. It's when you dont play efficiently with random people. At that point it's not just your time its 3-7 other people.(Not counting 24 mans cause that's another ballpark). However, if you're on a team whos ok with you not dpsing as a healer becuase your team isn't out to be cutting edge, then that's fine. Cause at that point your team knows about it and shouldn't mind it.

Now on my own personal stance, healers should dps to be efficient. Hopefully with healer dps scaling off of MND in SB. Coupled with the removal of CS it should help some healers make that final leap into dpsing more comfortably. As now you won't get caught in CS at a bad time when you need to heal. We will just need to see how it pans out in the next few weeks."

That was actually a response to a certain healer in podcast saying this.

Quote:

---

This is going to sound horribly full of myself... but I think I play White Mage the way it's intended, which is kind of a little bit of everything, but just as a reactive healer just trying to stay ahead of the curve.

---

It's not illegal for a healer to just heal as needed, but it looks incredibly lazy and playstyle differences is a valid reason to kick. Most of time I don't bother kicking them since I get that some people want to just heal and it's probably more time to wait for a healer that will DPS. It's just like, what are they doing in their downtime? I can't imagine doing nothing to be fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makeda

. The people who did pick it should learn how to play their own role better rather than expecting the other people to play two roles good so they can slack off.

---

I just need to say it and my fingers been itching for hours, after seing this at work but couldnt post. But holy sh*t. The irony in this post is almost over 9000. First of all nobody is saying healers should dps because the DPS is bad, even tho most healers actually outperform actuall dps in roulettes. Have you seen how people who have a group of people where everyone does a lot of dmg? In fact there will be less mechanics, less healing (best mitigation, which is both healer and tank jobs) while dps is to give group utility and do damage. The irony part of your post is you never raided and shouldn't even act like it. The fact you never raided nor do ''medicore'' content and then tell people how to play is the biggest irony of your post lol.

The real question is:

Why healers should dps instead that DPS really do their job ?

If dps do really dps theses threads on forum will never existed .

you can complain about healers dps or not as same for tanks but if you want solve thath ask the dd to improve their gameplay that's all ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bradach

^

---

To make it short, your cds/spells/skills arent there to look pretty, they are there to be used.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bradach

The real question is:

If dps do really dps theses threads on forum will never existed .

---

That's probably true, but that tends to be more of a gear thing than a competence thing.

Seems like PotD is training people to use the skills without the teamwork, or matching gear.

that's not a question of gear but mentality, let me explain:

You have never thinking about why people get so elitist at some point in pf for example ?

The game tend to have check dps in bosses battles to go throught the content, but the current problem as we know is :

- Many players just want to be carry without do anything to get loot or down ( look at theses pf so called "kill for a friend" and the guy is alone in pf asking no other bonus)

- Many don't wan't teach well their classes and their reponse is " i do whatever i want" , they don't accept any comment or anything.

- Many ragequitters

i can continue forever why people can be really "elitists" sometimes but the gear is not the reason for that.

As for dreaming of an utopia which everyone is no ragequiting , play well , i don't do any face plam at my desk ... we can continue that dream x)


PS: Thanks for resume more simple Akane

Going to bring up WoW here, don't freak out. I promise its relevant XD

The best time i ever had as a Healer in dungeon play was going through Blackrock Depths (For the uninitiated, back during vanilla, that dungeon was a 5 man crawl that could take up to 2 hours or more to full clear) at the minimum level to run it.
The reason, for me, for it being fun was that trash pulls were tactical. Damage on the tank was kind of heavy at all times, but never quite getting to whack-a-mole levels of HP bar pinging around.
Those trash fights would often last several minutes, longer if a runner escaped and ran to a new pack. Not because of 'bad' DPS, but because the mobs had mechanics and high HP pools coupled with target limitations on AoE attacks.
They also had decent chances to drop good loot, so clearing them was beneficial to the party.
There was almost never a chance to throw a Damage spell at a mob because it was a gross waste of Mana and the time was better spent not casting so as to get the increased regen from the old '5 second rule' on Mana regen speeds.

Then i compare that style of gameplay to current dungeons, Not specifically XIV, but MMO Dungeons as a whole. Where trash packs melt in 10 seconds or less and the meta has devolved into MOAR DPS MOAR DPS because the rewards all happen at the very end of the dungeon.
When you have trash mobs that are unrewarding to kill, die before ever dealing threatening damage to a Tank and have no mechanics that need to be watched for beyond "Its a red circle, GTFO", Whats a Healer supposed to do? The answer in all MMOs lately, has to been to DPS, because it gets everyone to the carrot that little bit faster and further trivializes the already trivial amounts of damage trash mobs deal to Tanks.

For as long as the only reason to go to a dungeon is to get the chest at the end (Somewhat broken up now with tomes being rewarded per boss, Though roulette rewards etc...), We're going to be constantly pushed to do more DPS when that isn't your primary role.
Either Dungeons need to get harder and be more rewarding or allow a scaling of difficulties and rewards (Savage Light Party play!)
Alternatively, SE could go the route of putting Diadem style loot drops (or randomly tomes) on trash mobs and then beefing them up to provide an actual threat to the party while making them rewarding to kill. Treat trash mobs as minibosses rather than an irritant to be waded through to get to the real reward.
Or they could even go the route of multiple modes on a Dungeon similar to GW2, Where you have the fast 'story' mode where you're locked into one track of specific bosses and then a more open 'Exploration' mode where everything is far tougher and the dungeon opens up to its fullest instead of being a series of corridors.
They could even re-purpose open world zones into dungeons for a completely different kind of Light Party Dungeon. They already do this to a small extent with various quests that have you enter an instance of the area the quest takes place in.
Right now, Dungeons are essentially treated as a chore that must be done as quickly as possible to get your pocket money... That needs to be fixed, since its part of why Healers and Tanks are being pushed to be DPS before their primary role.
Theres a lot that could be done to improve Light Party gameplay instead of leaving it as a weekly chore to get the good stuff. They should probably tinker with how damage is applied in a raid setting too, to minimize those periods where the tank is either full or dead.

This discussion is an exercise in futility. Excluding cutting edge progression, as long as you can down the dungeon/raid, whether the healer DPSed or not only affects the length of time it takes to down it.
The first thing we must remember is that you cannot impose how you want someone else to play, on that person, "more efficient" or not. In the end you cannot make them do it on their end of the screen. You cannot, because the game has not been designed to aggressively push that end of it.
I understand it bothers certain people that other people are not "playing to the best of their ability" but if that's what's bothering you, you will never be happy in any mmo. It happens with all roles. And the issue is with you, not your teammates in this instance.
This game isn't that hard in the first place. Let them do as they please, live and let live.
In conclusion, the real question is, does it matter?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jhael

The first thing we must remember is that you cannot impose how you want someone else to play ...

---

True, but they CAN be removed if the other people in their group don't like the way they play.

Well, good for you, if you want to, but if you lose aggro simply for the sake of "thrill and reward" (and, I'm not sure what reward you're getting, other than shaving on 1-2 mins in the dungeon), I would suggest you weight your options on what's more important: your own idea of thrill and reward or your party staying alive long enough to finish the dungeon within the time limit. And, it's your own choice to leave, but I don't think making a playstyle convoluted for the sake of it is good gameplay.

Really, I didn't even know dpsing tanks were too much of a thing outside of raiding. You'd think tanks would already have too much to worry about with keeping aggro and mitigating damage on high attack with bosses. Then there's the speed runners...
Imagine how nuts that would be with a tank pulling aggro on everything, then deciding to switch to sword oath. ><

Also, inb4 eventual flaming and closing of thread, cause, yeah, the flamebait.

While I already decided to make the switch from tank to SAM (like every 2nd person), if SAM wasn't coming out I would probably still switch back to a melee DPS.

I don't like the WAR changes.
Penalizing for stance dancing.
Dumbing down stack building by removing the ability to use Vengence/Zerk/Intuition.
Bloodbath RIP.
The switch back to STR as the main modifier..
Removal of the raid utility on Path.

All of these convince me to put my WAR gear in storage, and convert my relic into a katana.
Pushing DPS on tank was the only thing that made me enjoy tanking in this game.

People can say "but you don't know how it truly plays", while no, I don't have hands on time with SB. They essentially removed a lot of the things I liked about WAR.

PLD looks amazing, DRK looks quite solid.. But WAR got a rather large nerf...
Not just in damage and utility, but in playstyle as well.
And no, I don't care how many Fell Cleaves I can do in a row. What I do care about was the ability to choose to use defensive cooldowns for an offensive purpose (build stacks).


WAR rant over
-----

As for the cleric stance dance topic..

I am in two minds about it.
I like the concept of a healer stance dancing, however Cleric was rather clunky to deal with.

As an Australian who plays this game with 250ms on a good day, it can feel horrible to use.

So without going too far into it, I like the concept of cleric dancing, however I feel the way it is implemented in the game could have been a lot better. So I am pro-change on this matter. Not because of it being "easier" but because it won't feel as clunky to DPS on a healer.

Hopefully some healers who were not comfortable with DPSing will also feel encouraged to try with these changes as well. I know that those who are of the "healers should only heal" mindset won't, which is whatever, but I do hope it encourages those who want to try but are too scared to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jhael

This game isn't that hard in the first place. Let them do as they please, live and let live.

---

That's almost contradictory. The game is easy so people have a reason to do nothing? If the game is easy (which it IS) isn't that more a reason for people to try and find a way to make it more exciting/challenging on themselves? Stance Dancing kind of had that "danger" aspect to it. DPSing in general is brain dead, even more so than healing, on a healer so with these up coming changes there is literally no reason that healers shouldn't be dpsing outside laziness. I'm not happy when people try to enforce their playstyle on me by wasting my time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aramina

True, but they CAN be removed if the other people in their group don't like the way they play.

---

Party members making elitist dictatorial comments CAN be removed as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altena

As for the cleric stance dance topic..

I am in two minds about it.
I like the concept of a healer stance dancing, however Cleric was rather clunky to deal with.

As an Australian who plays this game with 250ms on a good day, it can feel horrible to use.

So without going too far into it, I like the concept of cleric dancing, however I feel the way it is implemented in the game could have been a lot better. So I am pro-change on this matter. Not because of it being "easier" but because it won't feel as clunky to DPS on a healer.

Hopefully some healers who were not comfortable with DPSing will also feel encouraged to try with these changes as well. I know that those who are of the "healers should only heal" mindset won't, which is whatever, but I do hope it encourages those who want to try but are too scared to.

---

I feel the correct mechanism would have been to either have CS as a "combo breaker". eg Cast Holy, Aero/AeroII/AeroIII and while the debuff is up on the target hit CS to repeat the last attack again instantly and double or reset the debuff timers. That way from a play balance aspect, to get the "full damage" threshold you need to use CS immediately after the big booms, and if you forget,or don't bother, then you're only doing half the damage.

That IMO, would make it have the intended effect. Stone would just be full power normally but not affected by it, so single target's casts aren't complicated.

The entire stance dance mechanic is clunky because it causes too many mistakes in being toggled. If it was a simple matter of holding down the shift key(or shoulder button) and hitting a cast, it would work right, and then released when the shift or shoulder button is released. But there in lies the problem, it's THE thing that is creating the button bloat in the first place for healers.

By removing the stance dancing, then healers can actually decide if that cast time is better spent healing or dps'ing rather than having this CS mechanic that wastes one cast cycle to get in, and can't be reset within two cast cycles, thus you lose 4 cast cycles in doing it. So a healer that is constantly having to switch in and out is actually failing on the "always be casting" meme, because they are spending half their time waiting for CS to switch.

The intent by design was for stance changes to allow these roles to be able to play the single player content without needing to be in a party like some other games. If you play a healer in other games, you're generally helpless on all the field content. But from a design intent it should never have been available in the dungeon, which Yoshi-P always wanted to get rid of it. But to get rid of it requires changing how healers DPS in solo content. So unless you want absolutely nobody taking up the healer role, that compromise needs to exist.

Like we're all waiting to see how the changes actually work out, but my prediction is that changes to the healing and tank roles won't go over well, and there will be some gnashing of teeth over "the meta" but ultimately we're more likely to see nerfs, not buffs post-V4.0 if things are too powerful for the content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's probably true, but that tends to be more of a gear thing than a competence thing.

Seems like PotD is training people to use the skills without the teamwork, or matching gear.

---

It isn't, if you have a good/excellent tank esp war (well way game is now, no idea what SB will do) with 2 good DPS, you can literally require zero healing on some pulls. For SCh this means all healing comes from fairy, for WHM it means stunlock > dead ( 3 spread holy) for ast, well they have a bit of work to do since they do not have tools like that, they would most likely need to toss out a regen after the first gravity or something. The asking healers to DPS comes from one reason only, this game does not require a lot of healing and people just don't want people to be standing around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

Going to bring up WoW here, don't freak out. I promise its relevant XD

---

I've heard all about it. Healing in WoW is spontaneous and way more reactive, as bosses crit a lot more often and for a lot more damage. There really isn't the time to even think about DPSing as all your resources were spent trying to keep people alive. It's an entirely different mindset to FFXIV, but it's interesting to compare how different healing is there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

Then i compare that style of gameplay to current dungeons, Not specifically XIV, but MMO Dungeons as a whole. Where trash packs melt in 10 seconds or less and the meta has devolved into MOAR DPS MOAR DPS because the rewards all happen at the very end of the dungeon.

---

FFXIV dungeons are boring and are too easy, especially on healers. This I believe is the root of the problem. If tank is skilled at using proper cooldowns you can actually probably play healer with one hand. Coupled with how easy it is output good DPS as a healer, it's not surprising that people have come to demand more from their healers. The question is, should they have to do more? My thoughts; Eh, not really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jhael

This discussion is an exercise in futility.

---

The only discussion not worth discussing is that discussion itself! Disagreement and differing of opinions is only one of the outcomes of open-ended discussions like these. And while people may come here without the intention of changing their viewpoints, they can at least come out of this understanding the other a bit better. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coatl

I've heard all about it. Healing in WoW is spontaneous and way more reactive, as bosses crit a lot more often and for a lot more damage. There really isn't the time to even think about DPSing as all your resources were spent trying to keep people alive. It's an entirely different mindset to FFXIV, but it's interesting to compare how different healing is there.



FFXIV dungeons are boring and are too easy, especially on healers. This I believe is the root of the problem. If tank is skilled at using proper cooldowns you can actually probably play healer with one hand. Coupled with how easy it is output good DPS as a healer, it's not surprising that people have come to demand more from their healers. The question is, should they have to do more? My thoughts; Eh, not really.



The only discussion not worth discussing is that discussion itself! Disagreement and differing of opinions is only one of the outcomes of open-ended discussions like these. And while people may come here without the intention of changing their viewpoints, they can at least come out of this understanding the other a bit better. ;)

---

I was actually referring to WoW as it was nearly 10 years ago. During the Mists of Pandaria expansion, Healers and Tanks were literally not even required in dungeons because the entire dungeon could be cleared in 3 minutes with a team of DPS.

Tanks used to be able to critted by bosses and trash mobs back during vanilla and Burning Crusade, you actually had to allocate stats to making sure you couldn't be crit. But then they just baked it into the classes.

On topic, Overgearing dungeons is a huge part of why healing is so boring in 4 mans.
The other part is people in general wanting to get in and out in as little time as humanly possible. Thats what needs changing. An additional mode that is far more difficult and couldn't be overgeared, but also far more rewarding for the additional time and effort spent in clearing it would go a long way to alleviating healer boredom. But people would probably avoid it like the plague because its "more efficient" to speedrun the easy version.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

On topic, Overgearing dungeons is a huge part of why healing is so boring in 4 mans.
The other part is people in general wanting to get in and out in as little time as humanly possible. Thats what needs changing. An additional mode that is far more difficult and couldn't be overgeared, but also far more rewarding for the additional time and effort spent in clearing it would go a long way to alleviating healer boredom. But people would probably avoid it like the plague because its "more efficient" to speedrun the easy version.

---

I'll agree here. I hate the idea of "speed running" content due to overgearing, that's the antithesis of enjoying content. If you want to speed run, use PF, especially to farm things. If you want to play it normally use DF and take whatever PUG's you get.

I'll also argue that healing is more boring than tanking. Tanking at least has combos. WHM Healing, your only combo is Cure-Cure II - Cure III. And it's random, and how often do you need to do C1-C2-C3? Pretty much never. It would be different if Cure III(4y) was like Assize in range(15y), but it's not. Medica II has the largest range at 25y, followed by Medica at 15y. So Cure III only ever makes sense to use in mechanics that require everyone to stand in the same spot like behind snowballs or some primal mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Party members making elitist dictatorial comments CAN be removed as well.

---

Indeed they can.

Oh good, I'm here before the show starts!

http://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb...izmho2_250.gif

time to start munching

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Party members making elitist dictatorial comments CAN be removed as well.

---

I have absolutely zero problems if the party wants to kick me because I don't want to carry someone through content. In fact please do so I don't have to wait out a penalty. That doesn't make someone an elitist. Everyone has a limited amount of time to play the game, if you want to spend it helping people who refuse to help themselves, that is your prerogative. That doesn't make someone bad for not wanting to. Sick of seeing "elitist" thrown around in lieu of adding something concrete to the discussion.

Lets say for the sake of argument that you que in the DF with three party members who want to RP walk through an entire dungeon. Are you duty bound to stick it out less you become apart of this so called "elitism"? Or would you agree that that playstyle falls outside of the community accepted "norm"? If so then you have the right to leave or vote kick them (if it were say one or two people instead of three) without the undue judgement of the FFXIV forums.

Tank DPS isn't going anywhere. Whether the content hits hard enough for tank stance to be essentially mandatory or not, tanks will still look to maximize their dps in every way possible. This is good because tanks are required to dps regardless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makeda

My point is that I should not be in that position. It's not the role I picked. The people who did pick it should learn how to play their own role better rather than expecting the other people to play two roles good so they can slack off.

---

^^^100%^^^
This is what most ppl don't get!

On a side note!
Befor I get started here, I'm a DPS WHM! But I also solo heal ALOT of endgame, that aside keep this in mided as you read.

You say healers need to DPS, because there a lot of free time, and the party need more DPS to clear the fight, way is it the healers job to DPS for you and do you're job? If there a lot of free time for the healer kick the 2nd one and get a 5th DPS so you don't have to make them do something they did not ask for. You don't make the DPS in your party jump to a diff DPS job just because you like it more.. Or you need it in the mid of the fight, way you're in the dungen....No you look for ppl to fill the roles befor going in! You want a DPS/healer, you LOOK for one to join you that want to do both jobs, not make one do it.

There no rule in the game saying you NEED 2 healers... You can Premake the party any way you wish! learn the fight with 2healers, then when you have it somewhat down, have the OH jump to a main DPS role and help push the fight for the clear. It only take ONE healer to heal every 4-8 man fight in this game. And 3 for 24man( hell if you Premake a 24 man, you only need one heal so long as everyone works together.)

My point is if a DPS can't even do there job, there ONLY job right! way the hell make tanks and healer do 2 job to make up for your bad dpsing or lazy playing? If you want a DPS healer, FINE ONE don't make other do something they don't like or wish to do, everyone has there own way of playing, no one is you're slave.

OP, don't worry. I'm certain there will be ample opportunity for tanks and healers to help with the damage dealing in Stormblood.

As far as the should healers dps debate, what can be said that hasn't be said already? The topic is emotional and the debate is heated, radioactive even, with people posting threads so extreme they have to be trolling. Let's all bury this road pizza of a dead horse and move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Party members making elitist dictatorial comments CAN be removed as well.

---

''Hey sir, I see you cast fire and ice between every 2 cast, BLM does more dmg when you cast fire, fire 3 is casted after blizzard 3 and a thunder to fill your mp up, then you use fire 1 to cast. The reason why, is because you get umbral stacks x3 after a fire 3 and fire 1 does more dmg and its faster to cast as well, which makes you dps more. If you cast fire 2 on more than 3 mobs, thats also very good'' > Gets kicked because elitist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altena

Pushing DPS on tank was the only thing that made me enjoy tanking in this game.

---

Yeah, I'd say it was fun. I really think SE needs to do something to make tanking and healing more challenging and fun. In TERA, tanks had to actively mitigate damage so it was sort of a challenge to block everything and take zero damage, and aggro was pretty hard to hold against good DPS. I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with having a learning curve, because if you make things too easy then people don't want to play anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Tank DPS isn't going anywhere. Whether the content hits hard enough for tank stance to be essentially mandatory or not, tanks will still look to maximize their dps in every way possible. This is good because tanks are required to dps regardless.

---

I think it'll be lowered a bit for WAR at least, because WARs are now penalized for stance dancing. If you need Inner Beast and you're in Deliverance you can either get your gauge halved, or spend the gauge on Fell Cleaves and then rebuild the gauge in Defiance (which is a DPS loss either way).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hazuki87

My point is if a DPS can't even do there job, there ONLY job right! way the hell make tanks and healer do 2 job to make up for your bad dpsing or lazy playing? If you want a DPS healer, FINE ONE don't make other do something they don't like or wish to do, everyone has there own way of playing, no one is you're slave.

---

Maybe that's some people's argument, but that was never mine. Mine was that you should play efficiently with other people and your skills are not there to look pretty. I do think there's a lot to be said about tank and healer carrying DPS. As I've said I don't make anyone do anything. That doesn't mean I have to be happy when someone is standing there looking pretty for half the time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by akaneakki

''Hey sir, I see you cast fire and ice between every 2 cast, BLM does more dmg when you cast fire, fire 3 is casted after blizzard 3 and a thunder to fill your mp up, then you use fire 1 to cast. The reason why, is because you get umbral stacks x3 after a fire 3 and fire 1 does more dmg and its faster to cast as well, which makes you dps more. If you cast fire 2 on more than 3 mobs, thats also very good'' > Gets kicked because elitist.

---

There is a difference between "suggesting" and "being too much of an elitist"

If i'm playing a role that I feel I know well, being told how to do my job by someone else is probably just going to get ignored unless I haven't played that duty at all. I'm willing to take advice on tanking, but good gawd, don't tell healers how to do their job unless someone dies/wipes. There is something rather humiliating about wiping to the trash mobs due to over-confidence and not to the boss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There is a difference between "suggesting" and "being too much of an elitist".

---

I never mentioned healers but while we at it, regen is the spell you want on tank at all times. If you know you do well thats fine, if You "feel you do well is a whole different thing. Most people "feel it too but in reality dont do so well. Anyways, most people say given advice or correct others is elitist attitutude. Ever wonder why less people help these days? Because of people taking things wrong way.