Will Healers Still be Forced to DPS in 4.0 Due to Lax Content?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

My focus is your shifting of blame towards the DPS, who already take fair criticism for bad play.

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That's exactly her point, though. Sub-par dps not only isn't criticized, it's actively enforced and allowed by the healer dps community, despite the fact a sub-par dps that can't afford even 1k dps is contributing less to the fight than a heal only healer.

I think it's really just coming down to healers have a superiority complex and thinking they deserve all the extra downtime because they decided to grace the common folk with their presence.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That's exactly her point, though. Sub-par dps not only isn't criticized, it's actively enforced and allowed by the healer dps community, despite the fact a sub-par dps that can't afford even 1k dps is contributing less to the fight than a heal only healer.

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If anyone actually needs an explanation as to why this statement is all kinds of wrong, feel free to raise your hand. Otherwise let's move on.

Nobody is being forced or at least I've never been. The expectation is just that every party member should do something. Party at max HP doesn't mean take a break while all the other party members are still engaging. Every role should be equal in needing to press buttons until the duty is complete.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That's exactly her point, though. Sub-par dps not only isn't criticized, it's actively enforced and allowed by the healer dps community, despite the fact a sub-par dps that can't afford even 1k dps is contributing less to the fight than a heal only healer.

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If you honestly believe DPS and tanks aren't criticised for lackluster damage... I don't know where to even begin. The Tales of the Duty Finder is littered with people mocking bad DPS players. Furthermore, let's stop the hyperbole. A DPS who can't reach 1k in Solm Al or Balesar's Wall isn't sub-par, they are garbage and plenty would kick them. Regardless, why is the response to bad players "I'll be a bad too!" That's the equivalent of saying, "everyone else go a D, so I won't bother striving for better." When I go into any content, I want to play my role efficiently. On tank and healers, that involves switching stances wherever applicable and on DPS it involves aoes and executing a proper rotation.

The one thing I would say about all this is all different types of players play the game. There are everything from hardcore raiders, to super casual plays one hour a week people. My opinion is if someone wants to play one way who's to stop them. Just because someone doesn't feel comfortable dpsing as a healer, or just wants to live the class fantasy of being a healer, they should be able to enjoy the game. If you are really bothered by healers not dpsing, or vice versa, then join as a group. The LFG tool in every game I have ever played has been a crap shoot. I don't think anyone should be kicked or even harassed for playing how they want to play. If the healer is healing and you are getting through, then just let it go. Or as I said, find a group that you know is what you want, and just go with them.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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Healers: Harassed, insulted, and kicked out of parties for dealing less than 3k dps.

Dps/Tanks: Occasionally whined about on a forum the majority don't visit.

One of these seems drastically different from the other. I wonder why?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Healers: Harassed, insulted, and kicked out of parties for dealing less than 3k dps.

Dps/Tanks: Occasionally whined about on a forum the majority don't visit.

One of these seems drastically different from the other. I wonder why?

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Healers: AFK half the time

Dps/Tanks: At least they can't alt-tab out to switch soundtracks mid-raid.

Edit: and grab a sandwich, and say hi to the neighbor, and and do a little grocery shopping, and raise a child, all stuff I could do mid-raid with how ezpz regens are. So yeah. But you guys just looooove being the worse healers.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I have many times seen healers kicked for refusing to DPS during downtime in non-intense content, in the same way a slow or ineffective tank may be kicked (generally according to average replacement time when people start getting annoyed).

Fun fact: The "I only heal" healers there, too, tend to be worse at healing, regardless of spending no globals on any other task, save for when there's enough damage and few enough mechanics to allow their eyes to remain fixed to their heal grids.

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You're playing with a very small group of people then because in 12 years of PUGs I have never seen a healer get kicked for not DPSing, and my main is shadow priest first, so it's not because I'm the healer all the time. I have also never been in a raid group where I was expected to DPS unless some rare situation called for it, like, as mentioned, pushing an add. Healers in WoW almost always have something to do that better contributes to their healing.

If they are damaging, it's because the damage has a mechanic tied to it that affects their healing. For example, in Warlords on Holy priest, when I was low on mana (because they for some reason decided to nerf spirit and then remove all active mana regen abilities...) I could spam Smite, which was mana neutral, to fish for Surge of Light procs while waiting on my mana to regen. That's not DPS for the sake of making things faster. That's DPS because I need healing from it.

I don't play WoW anymore since Legion launch, my friend tells me that only now is there a mentality beginning to emerge that healers should do some DPS, because DPS abilities on healers cost pretty much no mana now.

To say that there is no game where healers just heal, and then point to the biggest MMO in history as requiring healers to DPS when it doesn't, is laughable. Very few damaging attacks that FFXIV healers have contributes something to their healing, and it's pretty much limited to Assize and Energy Drain, restoring MP. The reason for this is because heals in WoW are much weaker. In XIV I can top up a bar in two-three casts. In WoW, I cannot. I HAVE to heal way more. It is much more demanding on my time. There's almost always something I can do that is better contributed to my healing. Mana cost has historically prohibited healers from DPSing anywhere close to the level we do in XIV, and now what prohibits it is the sheer amount of time healing. There are also no pet healers like Scholar, so we don't have healers that just AFK the whole time. I see plenty of healers who do damage, but not because they were told to lol. It's very rare to find any appreciable amount of downtime to do so in serious content.

As far as how this relates to XIV? I like to DPS as a healer, I feel I'm rather aggressive about it in comparison to average, but it's mostly because I don't like having nothing to do. I DPS in WoW for the same reason when I can. If I see a healer not DPSing I usually won't say anything unless it's a scholar or we've wiped a few times. I'd rather have my healer be healing than to get locked to Cleric because they're not comfortable with it or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Healers: Harassed, insulted, and kicked out of parties for dealing less than 3k dps.

Dps/Tanks: Occasionally whined about on a forum the majority don't visit.

One of these seems drastically different from the other. I wonder why?

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I see you went maximum hyperbole instead. Shooting for the high ground!

Probably because it's a blatant lie? Not to mention, a complete contradiction. If only the forums whine about healer DPS, how is it they can be "harassed and insulted?" Either way, you are either being willfully obtuse or are incredibly naive to believe only healers get called out. Check out some of the more aggressive raid streams or discord servers. They are not shy on opinions or mockery towards anyone who plays poorly. In fact, it's far more often DPS who are the butt of jokes. This idea that poor healers are just unfairly picked on while no one ever calls out the DPS is laughable.

Square should try to make a unique trial based on heavy healing requirement.
An Extreme for example.

I say try. Make a test with it to see how the players can handle this.
It could be nerf afterward if it's too hard.
But they should definitly try something entirely design for healers.

Just to see how it would feel and what the community could say about it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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So, you saw I was pointing out that weak dps suffer no in-game problems or retribution for under performing, and chose to counter that argument with... more apparent out of game evidence to the contrary? And this would matter to them, why? They aren't being kicked or harassed in game, and at worst are being made fun of in a place where they won't ever see it, and as a result have no reason to care.

Meanwhile, healers suffer quite a few in-game penalties and harassment if they don't put up high numbers, while the dps/tanks have no such repercussions...

Still not disproving the notions that dps are allowed to simply skate by with minimal effort while the healer has to pick up their slack.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Meanwhile, healers suffer quite a few in-game penalties and harassment if they don't put up high numbers, while the dps/tanks have no such repercussions...

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Where?

Are you actually kidding me? People are the MOST lenient with healers when it comes to DPS. Which other role can sit on their ass and watch Netflix while playing?

Also, lol if you think people don't complain about tanks and DPS not doing high DPS numbers. Like what?

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Where?

Are you actually kidding me? People are the MOST lenient with healers when it comes to DPS. Which other role can sit on their ass and watch Netflix while playing?

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Tanks and DPS. It's not uncommon for players of all roles to be half distracted by being on other social media, browsing forums, or watching videos on YouTube on another screen/handheld while also playing the game. I certainly have no problems juggling NIN positionals and oGCD's or the absolute plethora of MCH oGCD's, buffs, potions, dodging AoE's, and using support abilities on one screen while also carrying on a conversation or watching a Let's Play on another. It's why people trying to finger healers as the sole users of two screens has always confused me. Are people really incapable of multitasking?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Tanks and DPS. It's not uncommon for players of all roles to be half distracted by being on other social media, browsing forums, or watching videos on YouTube on another screen/handheld while also playing the game. I certainly have no problems juggling NIN positionals and oGCD's or the absolute plethora of MCH oGCD's, buffs, potions, dodging AoE's, and using support abilities on one screen while also carrying on a conversation or watching a Let's Play on another. It's why people trying to finger healers as the sole users of two screens has always confused me. Are people really incapable of multitasking?

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oh my god

I can't even take you half seriously any more.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Tanks and DPS. It's not uncommon for players of all roles to be half distracted by being on other social media, browsing forums, or watching videos on YouTube on another screen/handheld while also playing the game. I certainly have no problems juggling NIN positionals and oGCD's or the absolute plethora of MCH oGCD's, buffs, potions, dodging AoE's, and using support abilities on one screen while also carrying on a conversation or watching a Let's Play on another. It's why people trying to finger healers as the sole users of two screens has always confused me. Are people really incapable of multitasking?

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Okay.

And no, it's not about multitasking. It's about doing your job. If you can some how hit top DPS while not giving the game 100% of your attention than good for you.

Also nice how you ignored the last bit of my post.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

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Because mocking bad DPS never leads to them being kicked? If they're being mocked on a twitch stream, that means they're in the party and are likely going to be kicked or the whole thing falls apart. I'd also love to know where any examples are of healers suffering harsh penalties. Few ever wind up being kicked and even those who are aren't given a penalty, thus they can insta-queue back in. Considering your follow up post, I know you're trolling. Like I said, the idea tanks and DPS get away with everything while poor healers are picked on is, quite frankly, absurd.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Considering your follow up post, I know you're trolling.

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I'm actually not trolling. There are people that play better when multitasking, there are people that aren't, and there are people that don't mind either way. I tend to lean more towards the former category personally.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

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LOL WAIT. I have watched, actively watched full episodes of shows while healing, you think I need two screens for that? Just admit that you don't have a justifiable excuse for not DPSing, and we'd be way more satisfied with that.

Every non-DPS healer has quoted over and over again how it's not mandatory, then they scream at tanks and act like they're special because the numbers they throw out are green. And I really think you guys take "not a requirement" a little too far, while Square Enix might not require it, other players sure as hell can. There is no argument for not DPSing. As time goes on, DPS will be expected from more and more healers. Suck it up buttercup, you're on the losing team.

I do actually DPS, despite finding the healer dps 'rotation' boring to the level of tears. :P So sorry if that disappoints you, but I have 0qualms about spending the majority of time dpsing. I also actively tank in dps stance while rotating def CDs, use food and pots, and play as aggressively as I safely can with the group I get. Doesn't mean I enjoy it and can't speak out against it though.

I feel like this is now basically just an argument about which role is treated the worst and I think the difference between the rate of healers being called out in casual content is definitely higher but for a very obvious reason; when it comes to DF pug groups it is very easy to see a healer not pulling their weight in DPS (they aren't casting damage spells so either they're overhealing a ton or doing nothing) where as DPS being called out for poor performance is a bit harder.

As I've played other classes and watched my boyfriend do the same I've learned what good DPS looks like from them in a casual setting. There are still some that I don't understand fully but overall I have a much better idea now than I did when I'd only played WHM. I'm sure most of you can gauge this as well if not better than I can, you care enough to be on the forums which already sets you apart from most players. That being said most people running casual content dont care this much, its easier to pick on the healer standing there doing nothing (or jumping, god I hate the jumping around while waiting) than it is to notice the DRG didnt use heavy thrust or the WAR hasn't left tank stance.

This doesn't mean those things aren't bad, just that if you're playing casual content (as the vast majority of the player base do) then you're not very prepared to spot flaws beyond someone literally doing nothing.

All that aside in response to the OP is if damage scaled off MND is viable I look forward to still pumping out a ton of it, I wish more healers would try it before saying its not for them. The removal of stance dancing only makes it more accessible.

Damn character limit >.<

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Damn character limit >.<

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We need a giant, bolded sticky PSA in every forum that you can circumvent that by editing the post >_>

Or just finally get it removed.

The OP's point was that healing mechanics in this game are underwhelming and healers have way too much downtime, both of which are true. Healer Jobs are designed to heal. Their dps component is very shallow mechanically. SCH has the most and they originate from a dps class. If your going to spend most of your time dpsing it makes more sense frankly to just play a Job designed for it rather than the half assed dps design healers have.

Of course that quickly got derailed into an rather pointless argument over if healers should dps or not which wasn't what the thread was about. Seriously this discussion is getting old. Its not like either side is changing the others mind and its not like either side can force the other side to change their play style. People who don't want to dps will still not dps no matter how much people hate at them. People who kick healers not dpsing will still do it regardless. Both sides will fume and be salty about the other and in the end all this arguing will achieve nothing.

With all that said, I think the OP's point is something worth discussing. What should be the direction of healing gameplay in this game. Should SE be designing healers to be more like support dps rather than trying to fit them into a design the gameplay doesn't support? Or should they move back towards a healing model more similar to other games?

As a person who has mained healer on different MMOs for the past 12 years, I can say that FF14's healing mechanics are by far the most underwhelming. I have never had that much downtime healing in any other game I have played. I have never seen this argument in any other MMO I have played. Healing is way too powerful in this game and too automated. This is something that really needs to get sorted or it will continue causing problems. I don't want healer balance to be an excuse for healers to get sidelined again for new Jobs.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

As a person who has mained healer on different MMOs for the past 12 years, I can say that FF14's healing mechanics are by far the most underwhelming. I have never had that much downtime healing in any other game I have played. I have never seen this argument in any other MMO I have played. Healing is way too powerful in this game and too automated. This is something that really needs to get sorted or it will continue causing problems. I don't want healer balance to be an excuse for healers to get sidelined again for new Jobs.

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Well written. We are in complete agreement. I enjoy healing immensely, but the limited mechanics/UI and dearth of healing needed make it a questionable role in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

As a person who has mained healer on different MMOs for the past 12 years, I can say that FF14's healing mechanics are by far the most underwhelming. I have never had that much downtime healing in any other game I have played. I have never seen this argument in any other MMO I have played. Healing is way too powerful in this game and too automated. This is something that really needs to get sorted or it will continue causing problems.

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Definitely agree there's way too much downtime with healing in this game. However, I wouldn't want to be a healbot. That was clerics back in EverQuest. I played a druid and they had a wider toolkit. But my cleric friend got bored being a healbot. Clerics had this spell called Yaulp that was a battle buff and the normal use was on others. But he would cast that on himself and dive right into the fray with his hammer. They need to balance things so we're not forced to turn to just dps to stay busy.

Hmm I am not wondering if the title is a bit misleading. No one knows if it will be "Lax" or not yet. Not even those who had media tour exposure. From the perspective of someone who heals sometimes I never feel like I need to DPS to keep myself busy (unless its SCH pre-50, lucky d00ds.) It's all about comfort, and shouldn't be about expectation in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

As a person who has mained healer on different MMOs for the past 12 years, I can say that FF14's healing mechanics are by far the most underwhelming. I have never had that much downtime healing in any other game I have played. I have never seen this argument in any other MMO I have played. Healing is way too powerful in this game and too automated. This is something that really needs to get sorted or it will continue causing problems. I don't want healer balance to be an excuse for healers to get sidelined again for new Jobs.

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I feel the same. For all the talk of healer DPS and the devs dislike of our expectations for it, this meta declines rapidly if content were tuned with volatile damage in mind. While I enjoy DPSing on my healers, I hate the sheer amount of downtime I'm given since it takes away part of the reward. Say I were only able to reasonably weave in 20-30% Cleric. That feeling rewarding, especially if I couldn't do it for the first couple weeks. Granted, tanking has a similar problem where you only ever feel like one if you pull the whole room. You certainly won't need CDs otherwise. Hopefully, Stormblood pushes the boundaries a little.

That's not really how healing works in this game though. All classes are built to be able to deal damage and do their support roles. That's part of the whole learning process of playing a job efficiently and effectively in this game. I do get that people want the jobs to fall into certain categories; however, I can't think of a single game where a "tank" is just a rock that absorbs damage while doing nothing else. Or a healer/support literally only makes their teammates HP go up. And yes, each role has specific functions before all else, but a dps that is only doing stuff half the time and makes the healers/tanks/other dps work harder is just as guilty of not contributing. The unfortunate thing for tanks and healers is that it's MUCH easier to see when they aren't doing what they are supposed to.

And I feel like it's hard for SE to really push the boundaries in normal, duty finder content. They definitely have content that allows players to do that. But there is sort of a tone set for the difficulty and speed through which people can do certain content. For instance, if you ramp up the outgoing damage for ALL stormblood dungeons (thus bumping up the healing and tank requirements) doing damage would still mean that the enemies die faster and that your tanks and healers would need to mitigate and heal less damage. So would SE then bump up the HP of the enemies too? So you couldn't cheese the healing/tank mechanics by just rapidly killing things? This would then slow down the dungeons a great deal. And make them VERY long and frustrating for players who aren't used to challenging themselves to max out their class and their role. With that said, there isn't as much of a middle ground between the "casual" content and savage raiding though. So I do hope that all players who are interested in playing or do enjoy the game find their niche and way to enjoy the game. I just think it's quite difficult from a design standpoint to cater to all skill levels and and all interests in an MMO.

There are plenty of older MMOs like that. EverQuest was famous for the tank being just a tank and a healer being just a healer and the CC classes being all about CC. It's funny but DPS wasn't even part of the Holy Trinity. It was tank, healer, and crowd control. I like some things that have changed since EQ time but I'm not convinced this trend of just zerg rushing everything is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

... Of course that quickly got derailed into an rather pointless argument over if healers should dps or not which wasn't what the thread was about. Seriously this discussion is getting old. Its not like either side is changing the others mind and its not like either side can force the other side to change their play style. People who don't want to dps will still not dps no matter how much people hate at them. People who kick healers not dpsing will still do it regardless. Both sides will fume and be salty about the other and in the end all this arguing will achieve nothing.

With all that said, I think the OP's point is something worth discussing. What should be the direction of healing gameplay in this game. Should SE be designing healers to be more like support dps rather than trying to fit them into a design the gameplay doesn't support? Or should they move back towards a healing model more similar to other games?

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From the standpoint of being able to solo, healers need to be able to do a decent amount of DPS (lest they become a serious chore to level), but personally I feel their primary role should always remain healing with a certain amount of support (including shields, mitigation, HP boosts, etc. as purely reactive healing gets rather boring). Whether they should have any ability to boost party damage is up for debate...

That said, I've been thinking it could be a good idea to give healers some well-designed mechanics that actually encourages them to Always Be Casting.
For example, each healer could have some sort of resource that builds based on healing done (over heals don't count), damage done, and / or support given. This resource could then be spent to increase their own, and / or the party’s effectiveness, thus making an active play-style unquestionably 'the way' healers should be played... or are people still going to ignore this?

As for the content thing, I would love to see more challenging 4-man content, especially a true 'Expert' mode for dungeons... but that's another discussion. Failing that, would it work to revert Cleric Stance to an actual stance, having it as a flat boost to damage (and / or support) (e.g. +20%) at the cost of healing potency (e.g. -30%)? The idea being that in less demanding content you could actually heal it in Cleric Stance, adding a small challenge back to healing with the bonus of a boost to damage and / or support.

Edit: PS. This is how I think WHM should have been designed for 4.0

I am fairly confident that quests from level 60 to 70 in 4.0 will require you as a healer to DPS if you do not already have someone else doing it for you.

The grass is always greener elsewhere.

Some games where healers are powerful in every way but direct damage have players complaining of being healbots and/or buffbots since attempts to keep buffing classes active usually involve having them hit the same buttons every 30 seconds, 2 minutes, or what-have-you.

In games where crowd control is powerful, you might end up with some CC classes that are incredibly desirable but a horrible pain in the ass to level without help since their game-breaking CC is balanced by their tedious or non-existent damage capability.

Then we have FFXIV, where some players complain that they don't have enough healing actions to do, but don't care to hit stuff.

Don't get me wrong; I think there is room to improve the healing and overall support dynamic, but we're not starting from a horrible place. Could be a lot worse.

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Originally Posted by Zephanoa

Hmm I am not wondering if the title is a bit misleading. No one knows if it will be "Lax" or not yet. Not even those who had media tour exposure. From the perspective of someone who heals sometimes I never feel like I need to DPS to keep myself busy (unless its SCH pre-50, lucky d00ds.) It's all about comfort, and shouldn't be about expectation in my eyes.

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The problem is that, even if it doesn't start out being easy (can we please get some dungeons that aren't already 30 ilvls behind on day-1?), just by the nature of vertical gear progression, and the total lack of supplementary mechanics such as crowd control, that is where the difficultly level is always going to end up.... and as such, simply by the nature of healing (and to a lesser extent tanking), as the difficulty lowers, players in those roles are going to be forced to chase an alternative playstyle as a means to being challenged (i.e. maximising DPS).

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Square should try to make a unique trial based on heavy healing requirement.
An Extreme for example.

I say try. Make a test with it to see how the players can handle this.
It could be nerf afterward if it's too hard.
But they should definitly try something entirely design for healers.

Just to see how it would feel and what the community could say about it.

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For what it's worth, there have been some pretty healer focused fights. Unnerfed Pharos Sirius being the first that comes to mind. Not in regards to the output of damage, but because of all the stuff they had to focus on.

Odin Trial is pretty damage heavy if people aren't on the ball, too, at least when I ran it last.

The only way i can see for healer becomea pure healing class without everyone nitpicking about them not dpsing at all is by increasing their skill mana cost.

All healing skill mana cost is triple and offensive skill is double, there now you just cant spam holy or heal anymore because you really need to watch your mana management

Whether or not healer want to dps or not, from the very first thread about this debate start, my 2cents will stay same, are they doing their core job as in make everyone stay alive properly? If yes then shrug it off, people has their own way to play games. Its like playing fps game, you cant ask casual to play like they are in competitive match not because you cant, they wont care. There are thousand players out there find your own community circle, those people belong in their own circle let them be.

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Originally Posted by gumas

The only way i can see for healer becomea pure healing class without everyone nitpicking about them not dpsing at all is by increasing their skill mana cost.

All healing skill mana cost is triple and offensive skill is double, there now you just cant spam holy or heal anymore because you really need to watch your mana management

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Technically I suppose you're right, but that's a horrible, fun-sucking option.

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Originally Posted by gumas

The only way i can see for healer becomea pure healing class without everyone nitpicking about them not dpsing at all is by increasing their skill mana cost.

All healing skill mana cost is triple and offensive skill is double, there now you just cant spam holy or heal anymore because you really need to watch your mana management

Whether or not healer want to dps or not, from the very first thread about this debate start, my 2cents will stay same, are they doing their core job as in make everyone stay alive properly? If yes then shrug it off, people has their own way to play games. Its like playing fps game, you cant ask casual to play like they are in competitive match not because you cant, they wont care. There are thousand players out there find your own community circle, those people belong in their own circle let them be.

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That would also be a good way to cut the healer population. That scenario sounds dreadful.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

There are plenty of older MMOs like that. EverQuest was famous for the tank being just a tank and a healer being just a healer and the CC classes being all about CC. It's funny but DPS wasn't even part of the Holy Trinity. It was tank, healer, and crowd control. I like some things that have changed since EQ time but I'm not convinced this trend of just zerg rushing everything is the way to go.

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This was how I saw mmos as a whole when I first got into them. I always wanted to play healer but leveling was a total pain because you got almost no damage skills, and all you had was garbage. RIP if you aggro-ed more than 1 mob. XIV gives you more to work with, but at the same time- I'll always be biased towards if someone is taking damage, heal them. If no one is taking damage, buff them. This is where DoTs would come in handy the most since your ailment would stack on with the rest and you can keep that glittery green flowing.