Red Mage AoE

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Originally Posted by Vallhallix

Lore-wise it makes sense, jack of all trades, master of none. They should not be able to cast flare or holy at the same levels as a BLM or WHM.

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Agreed but id consider the red mage flare and holy to be better than the whm or blm. Though if you wanted to argue that its just more concentrated hence the higher potency and single target. But all the other elemental spells are more potent as well fire thunder aero and stone. So i dont think they really fit the jack of all trades master of none category.

I don't think I'm ever going to understand the need for every job to be great at every aspect of combat. There's nothing wrong with RDM lacking in AoE, they have an AoE combo. Scatter/Enhanced Scatter to build mana, a single spell to unbalance mana levels slightly, jump in for Enchanted Moulinet until you can't anymore, jump back out and repeat. It's SO GOOD at single target that it doesn't NEED to be good at AoE.

It feels like people only want this to be a thing because the "meta" is mass-pulling trash between bosses. That's not a game problem, that's a players rushing content problem. You can't blame the job design for that. Other jobs have just as little and/or basic AoE capabilities and almost always at the expense of burning resources dramatically where TP-based jobs are concerned.

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Originally Posted by KaerisKlyne

I don't think I'm ever going to understand the need for every job to be great at every aspect of combat. There's nothing wrong with RDM lacking in AoE, they have an AoE combo. Scatter/Enhanced Scatter to build mana, a single spell to unbalance mana levels slightly, jump in for Enchanted Moulinet until you can't anymore, jump back out and repeat. It's SO GOOD at single target that it doesn't NEED to be good at AoE.

It feels like people only want this to be a thing because the "meta" is mass-pulling trash between bosses. That's not a game problem, that's a players rushing content problem. You can't blame the job design for that. Other jobs have just as little and/or basic AoE capabilities and almost always at the expense of burning resources dramatically where TP-based jobs are concerned.

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i think the problem is more of a comparison thing.

compared to other mages. Black mage and Summoner both have great aoe and mechanics to make mp never be an issue
I'd say red mage will be able to sustain aoe about as well as a white mage but then again white mage has thin air now... 100 potency isn't that terrible btw

but then the big comparison would be samurai since it is the other new job

samurai has an overabundance of literally everything
red mage has it's building skills, consuming skills, and finishers but they are all pretty stringent in pattern usage. even the gap closer and opener are designed to just be part of the consumer part of rotation. The skill the speeds up building even resets them to make sure
Then they have a builder and consumer aoe but it looks like 30s+ of building for one consumer

now samurai on the other hand has 3 combos to build up 2 distinct resources. one resource has 2 very good single target finishers while the other is used for a ton of great ogc stuff to the point that samurai is probably the most mobile class in the game while also having the most spammable ogc damage and even has other ogc damage just in case the 1s cooldown on the first is too long...
then they have 2 aoe combos that also build up the 2 points needed for the very good aoe finisher and build up the other gauge for an aoe ogc skill and still have access to the amazing mobility.

It's a pretty stark constrast. Red mage has the neat res utility but not really the mp resources to back it up and the decaying damage buff but samurai has such high potency that it will be benefiting quite a bit more from other classes aoe buffs than your average dps that is bringing party utility

Well at least they have spammable (potentially so long as their mana holda out) AoE. Would love to have that in Stormblood as SMN.

your not looking at SMN the right way then.

bane+shadowflare is about equal to red mage aoe every 3s for 30s at the cost of 2 global cooldowns then you get to spam ruin and your pet is attacking and you can throw in painflares and you get your dreadwyrm trance(which if you factor in the tri-disaster reset means your opener is just 3 off global cooldowns)

it's quite a bit more potent actually and more interesting. Red Mage's Aoe is basically just scatter over and over until they can moulinet and if enhanced scatter continuously procs even when it's up that is only one moulinet per 4 scatters. If enhanced scatter alternates it's 1 moulinet per 6 scatters

The issue with what you descibe Nihility is the time it takes to cast all that, cooldowns, and cost. Bane = Aethetflow and cooldown so not spammable and also potentially heavily nerfed in Stormblood. Shadowflare = right now cast time, but Stormblood it had a potential 60 second cooldown. Painflares = cooldown, potentially 5 seconds in Stormblood, and Aetherflow. Deathflare = only in Dreadwyrm and at/near end of it. Bahamut = needing to have gone through two previous dreadwyrms.

That all takes time, set up, and aetherflow which you only get 3 to work with till aethetflow is on cooldown. RDM just has to cast and has zero set up and it just costs mana.

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Originally Posted by Draxxion

The issue with what you descibe Nihility is the time it takes to cast all that, cooldowns, and cost. Bane = Aethetflow and cooldown so not spammable and also potentially heavily nerfed in Stormblood. Shadowflare = right now cast time, but Stormblood it had a potential 60 second cooldown. Painflares = cooldown, potentially 5 seconds in Stormblood, and Aetherflow. Deathflare = only in Dreadwyrm and at/near end of it. Bahamut = needing to have gone through two previous dreadwyrms.

That all takes time, set up, and aetherflow which you only get 3 to work with till aethetflow is on cooldown. RDM just has to cast and has zero set up and it just costs mana.

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You're greatly overstating the complexity of SMN AoE. You do have to hit more than a couple of buttons, but by no means it is anything difficult. RDM has Death Blossom and a weak Katon basically. It's going to have an AoE rotation as boring as NIN's was.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

It's going to have an AoE rotation as boring as NIN's was.

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Except NIN will have Hellfrog and TCJ(SKD) now... soooooooo

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

You're greatly overstating the complexity of SMN AoE. You do have to hit more than a couple of buttons, but by no means it is anything difficult. RDM has Death Blossom and a weak Katon basically. It's going to have an AoE rotation as boring as NIN's was.

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I think we are arguing two different things. I am not talking about complexity. I know SMN has more complex and interesting to do AOE. I am talking ease of use and spamability. You can't spam SMN AOE. You can RDM. RDM AOE might be boring, but at least it has no set up and you can spam it as long as your mana holds out.

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Originally Posted by Draxxion

I think we are arguing two different things. I am not talking about complexity. I know SMN has more complex and interesting to do AOE. I am talking ease of use and spamability. You can't spam SMN AOE. You can RDM. RDM AOE might be boring, but at least it has no set up and you can spam it as long as your mana holds out.

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I guess I don't get the point. The "setup" isn't complicated or hard to get going, so I don't see the contrast between that and Death Blossom spam as anything relevant.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Except NIN will have Hellfrog and TCJ(SKD) now... soooooooo

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Yeah. That's why I made sure I used past tense when talking about NIN. They got some nice changes to not be as boring as they used to be.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

That's why I used past tense.

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Whops, my bad. Well, sadly both of those are gated behind the same resource which is kinda troublesome to build up anyway so it may not be THAT different.

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Originally Posted by Draxxion

Well at least they have spammable (potentially so long as their mana holda out) AoE. Would love to have that in Stormblood as SMN.

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You almost make it sound like SMNs don't have the strongest and the most efficient AoE in the game. I'm not really sure what more than that anyone could want xD

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Whops, my bad. Well, sadly both of those are gated behind the same resource which is kinda troublesome to build up anyway so it may not be THAT different.

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Nah, no problem. I'll get around to trying 4.0 NIN at some point.

Back to aoe, if there are mp issues i can think of some options, if just aoe, then easy to drop the mp cost. Other options could be to make dualcast cause the casted spell to be free or half mp or something. If just fixing aoe mp issues then maybe make enhanced scatter free or reduced mp. I dont think single target mp will be an issue, at least based on the simulator i was able to go for a long time by using lucid dream and kept around 75%mp. I think adding a mp regen to holy and maybe a short damage buff to flare would be an interesting mechanic that encourages true control and mastery of their mana balance. Another mp solution is to make impact cause a mp regen effect.

While i kinda find it unfortunate that RDM lacks the AOE strength that either SMN or BLM have, I'm still looking forward to it. hopefully RMD's single target damage is more than enough to make up for it's lack of a viable AOE rotation.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

While i kinda find it unfortunate that RDM lacks the AOE strength that either SMN or BLM have, I'm still looking forward to it. hopefully RMD's single target damage is more than enough to make up for it's lack of a viable AOE rotation.

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Well, looking at the AoE nerfs that has been going around maybe SE wants to discourage speed running practices and this is their roundabout way to say it??

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Well, looking at the AoE nerfs that has been going around maybe SE wants to discourage speed running practices and this is their roundabout way to say it??

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They just place magic walls when they think you are cheating the system. *cough*Amdapor Keep*Cough* :P

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Well, looking at the AoE nerfs that has been going around maybe SE wants to discourage speed running practices and this is their roundabout way to say it??

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Those changes were already in game for BLM. they just weren't tacked on to summoner until now.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

until now.

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And they are now, just like in a couple other jobs too.

AoE potency being boring in itself is not a problem unless the AoE is too weak. BLM had boring AoE rotaitons but it was strong enough that you wouldn't be doing it for 3 hours in 1 dungeon run. MNK AoE was fun and it's almost as strong as BLM. SMN AoE rotation was both satisfying and strong. There was a reason people hated NIN in AoE (it was low and resource intensive for no reason). Heck, the ONLY reason I hate PLD is the lack of AoE.

Now come in SB SAM gets all the fun with build up AoE that is also TOO POWERFUL. And then we there's RDM that seems to be the new NIN.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

They seem to be trying to move the game slightly away from the "just pull big and just AoE spam" problem that plagues dungeons at the moment, which will upset people who want to just speed through them, but will make it so that it's more reasonable to play through the dungeon normally and still have a semi-comparable clear time, which will keep people from getting quite as upset at parties that don't pull big.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Well, looking at the AoE nerfs that has been going around maybe SE wants to discourage speed running practices and this is their roundabout way to say it??

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The reason of "just pull big and just AoE spam" isn't really the power of AoE (if you did not have 2 casters the group's AoE is considerably "crappy"), it's the fact that the dungeon design itself leads to it.

1- The problem that isn't a problem: Resource Efficiency.

A CD is a CD. An ability that spends 120 TP spends 120 TP. When those abilities are AoE, you want to hit as many targets as possible to justify the resource. If my 200 potency/minute AOE ability is best used when I hit 70 mobs instead of 1 within that minute. If I spend 10 GCDs of 120 TP on mobs, I'd rather it hits 2 packs instead of 1 otherwise I would have to "wait" for TP between the same packs. A tank's damage reduction CD reduces more damage when used against 2 packs instead of 1.... etc.

2- The problem that can be fixed: Trash mobs are boring, have no mechanics to them nor do they anything more than "trash damage".

All a tank has to do is chain a couple of defensives until the bulk dies as long as the group has the DPS to trim some of the mobs within the duration. I've had groups where things start dying before Shadow Wall (10seconds) even wears off and any meaningful damage starts to matter.

The second problem should NOT be fixed by nerfing tanks or AoE DPS. Don't give me any "roundabout" ways of fixing this. It should be fixed by putting ACTUAL incentives of not pulling an entire dungeon all the way to boss. If trash stays weak as it is, and as long as AoEing x number of mobs is better than single target, we will pack mobs until we break the x number. Even if all of our AoEs is 50 potency.

Let's compare this to WoW dungeons, some "trash" mobs enrage, others AoE stun, some mind control a party member (healer!) or even do tank busters. So as long as those dangerous enemies live, you don't want another one of them in the pull. Some dungeons have more dangerous trash than the bosses themselves and that's where some big (5 and 10 minute) cooldowns are used.

These two games approach dungeons in a complete opposite way. I think a happy medium would be MUCH better.

What would upset me isn't the inability to speed run a dungeon, because people WILL speed run dungeons. So think of it this way: In HW, I could kill 7 mobs in just under a minute. In SB, I can't kill the SAME 7 mobs (because I'm running synch'd level 60 which will be a thing) in 3 minutes because of how heavily they nerfed my AoE... I'm still gonna AoE the packs, it just will take so much longer. SE should focus more into making their dungeons' trash mobs less monotone and boring if they want to stop the "speedrunning plague".

Some may argue it is hard to fix that because as you creep into power you start "powering through", but at that point FFXIV has new dungeons. This is one of this game's strongest points, NEW dungeons (and content) every 3 months or so.

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

Also, do keep in mind that Dualcast means that for every spell you cast, the next one won't have a cast time, so it will be a lot faster of casting that one AoE than it appears, so you can't judge potency for RDM quite the same as you can other classes......

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This doesn't even matter. The difference between a cast ability and a no cast ability is when the damage happens in relation to the GCD.

Cast = Damage happens at the end of GCD (or just more in case of BLM) and interrupted casts means wasted GCD. Also no window for auto attacking and/or oGCD weaving..
No cast = damage happens at the start of the GCD and opens space for oGCD usage and auto attacks.

From a balance perspective: Cast is a more "risky" mechanic and should have some of form of reward. But that's all.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

So, 50 content? Not very powerful AoE. 60 Content, over the course of a Dungeon? RDM's AoE isn't terrible, especially when you factor that, like Summoner, AoE Resource more or less maintains between fights. 70 Content? All mages fall off in comparison to melee. (Summoner gets one really bursty phase during Bahamut summon, but most AoE needs die too quickly to make full use of that thus far, maybe that will change?)

Again, speculatively, all the pieces seem to be there with good thought behind them. Just need to see how it actually plays firsthand.

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This is a problem: Melee are always ahead in single target. I understand it being okay because of up-time issues. But now they creep into being ahead in AoE AND also take half our utility (They took Virus's physical portion from us in Feint for example), might as well we all abandon casters and just play melee.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

Those changes were already in game for BLM. they just weren't tacked on to summoner until now.

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Bane already had the fall off. In ARR it only spread to 3. In HW it already had 50% fall off after the 3rd target.

SE could be nerfing Bane more because of cheese strats such A9 where boss takes less damage while faust is up? SMN and SCH could put up super DoTs (buffed and extended) on Faust and Bane them onto Refurbisher where it would tick for its full damage on it despite the 90% damage reduction. This nerf won't hurt SMN much because it's getting new AoE abilities and less ramp-up. But it will definitely kill off SCH aoe.

AoE potencies are getting pretty nerfed across the board... a change honestly welcome since as a melee my AoE is basically "mash one button over and over, occasionally refresh a buff", so I'm happy to see it being less prevalent

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

AoE potencies are getting pretty nerfed across the board... a change honestly welcome since as a melee my AoE is basically "mash one button over and over, occasionally refresh a buff", so I'm happy to see it being less prevalent

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I would agree if AoE'ing isn't what we do in 80% of this game's content. (Only raids are mainly single target and those still have AoE portions).

AOE potency has been nerfed across the board.. yes everyone knows this. Our arguments are derived from the current proposed potency values among all classes...

RDM has significantly lower AOE then other mages and most DPS across the board. It's also boring as all hell.

The simplest fix, I'll state again, would be to increase resources generated per scatter. If we bring the generation to no more then 4 scatters per moulinet then we boosted the damage to an average level while making the build feel a bit nicer since we can use more moulinet. We still won't have the AOE of a BLK or a smn but we won't I'm the gutter either.

I would love to see an AOE mechanic similar to our single target but that is asking a lot more.

I wonder if I'm the only one that would rather see them nerf AoE further.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I wonder if I'm the only one that would rather see them nerf AoE further.

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easier to raise 1 dps in aoe value then to nerf the rest but if they toned other AoE and brought it closer to RDM (but keeping BLM and SMN higher) then i would fine with that as well.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I wonder if I'm the only one that would rather see them nerf AoE further.

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I would reply the same to this post as the one before it:

I would not mind had AoE not comprise 80% of what we do in this game.

A better alternative to AoE nerfing is to give us more interesting AoE rotations. Or just make "cleave" a thing. And even better is to make trash pulls meaningful instead of having 7 to 9 mobs that don't know how to damage a tank.

What is "cleave" you ask? Cleave is when you end up dealing multi-target damage without altering your single target damage. The "splash" form SMN's Deathflare is the biggest example.

How is it different from AoE? You do not replace your most effective single target rotation in order to get said cleave. Deathflare is cleave damage, Painflare and Bane are not cleave, but are AoE as you replace the single target oriented Fester for them.

So if we combine the "interesting AoE and cleave rotations" with the "interesting mob packs" I suggested in my earlier post where some packs may have a mob or two that AoE stun or use tank busters or reset aggro or whatever else dangerous mechanic they may come up with. Then we end up with:

We will pull this pack, DPS focus on killing the big bad monster while you trickle down the rest with cleave, then after it's dead we can AoE the rest of the "trash" as we move on to the next pack.

Then I wouldn't mind if my AoE drops to 50 potency. My problem with AoE isn't the power, it's the boring-ness.

Spamming Scatter isn't fun.

Throwing a Painflare as you apply 4(?) DoTs, then using Bane, then Painflare/fester again and entering DWT and using Miasma 2 and Shadow Flare before throwing a few fillers before Deathflaring? THAT's fun. It's even more fun when you do it twice and then bring the big daddy Bahamut.

Of course no one wants to press that many buttons to do the same DPS as a Scatter spamming RDM, but you get the gist.

*sigh* SE, remove the 1000 character limit, it's stupid! :p

A lot of jobs have really boring aoe, I don't think it's that big of a deal, you pretty much just spam 1 or 2 skills with pretty much all the jobs anyway.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

A lot of jobs have really boring aoe, I don't think it's that big of a deal, you pretty much just spam 1 or 2 skills with pretty much all the jobs anyway.

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Yeah, for that reason I don't play PLD, DRG, MCH and NIN in dungeons. But I do play DRK, WAR, SMN, BLM, MNK, WHM and AST in them. :p

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Originally Posted by Samsta

A lot of jobs have really boring aoe, I don't think it's that big of a deal, you pretty much just spam 1 or 2 skills with pretty much all the jobs anyway.

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On the contrary, I would rather not say that since most jobs already have boring AoE "rotations" it's okay to keep making new jobs that are equally boring. Samurai is a great example of them doing something interesting, with two AoE combos that setup Tenka Goken while simultaneously generating a resource that can be spent at a significantly greater frequency than most other off global cooldown AoE abilities or strategically stored for burst potential. All jobs with lackluster AoE diversity should really be addressed since AoE combat takes up a fairly large portion of the game experience.

Black Mage has relatively boring AoE, but still does have Fire II, Flare, Foul, Thunder IV and even Freeze if you want to consider that. And Thunder IV is going to proc plenty of times during large scale AoE. Summoner has some mediocre scaling DoTs and the area DoT, but also has many oGCD AoE abilities, including Deathflare, Enkindle, Bahamut etc.

Red Mage literally has only Scatter, which they need to spam around 15 times before being able to Moulinet 3 times. That's literally it. In addition to that, Red Mage only has a Contre every once in a while.

I have mentioned this elsewhere, but I really feel like RDM is an incomplete job in a way. They should have two 5s cast time AoE spells - One for white and one for black mana. That way, there would be some sort of a rotation for the AoE as well, which isn't just spamming Scatter in a mind-numbing manner.

I like how the job hasn't even been released yet and there are already sims and theory crafting going on with no actual experience of playing the class that is hitting live. Square has done an amazing job balancing most classes over the years so i trust they will get it right this time too. give it a week at least until the "OMG NEED A COMPLETE REWORK PLS." (keep in mind they already said they will be balancing numbers all the way up through launch, so numbers that are over a month old really mean nothing at this point)

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Originally Posted by Shunye

I like how the job hasn't even been released yet and there are already sims and theory crafting going on with no actual experience of playing the class that is hitting live. Square has done an amazing job balancing most classes over the years so i trust they will get it right this time too. give it a week at least until the "OMG NEED A COMPLETE REWORK PLS." (keep in mind they already said they will be balancing numbers all the way up through launch, so numbers that are over a month old really mean nothing at this point)

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It took Square-Enix 4 years to add ONE AoE skill to the PLD which was plagued by the most boring playstyle since 2.0. That is what worries people. SE is the type that goes: If class can do the fights, it's fine. They don't care about fun factors as much.

They do look at population/job numbers and feedback. They did give Monk Raid utility, and moved the Damage Combo on Paladin as well. Sure, it's slow moving, but it has to be in order to make the right reaction for everyone, not just the vocal. We're dealing with multiple hundred thousands of people and opinions here. We can loose sight of that sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

They do look at population/job numbers and feedback. They did give Monk Raid utility, and moved the Damage Combo on Paladin as well. Sure, it's slow moving, but it has to be in order to make the right reaction for everyone, not just the vocal. We're dealing with multiple hundred thousands of people and opinions here. We can loose sight of that sometimes.

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Yeah I agree with you here and I'm half-sarcastic in my comments as I'm here mostly for the salt lol. But the vocal population's voice is sort of justified. And let's face it, most of the non-vocals have no clue to even know what the vocal populace is worried about. :p

Here's one idea:

Modify Scatter so that it increases Black Mana and White Mana by 3 for each enemy hit by Scatter (perhaps with a cap of 15 or so for balance sake). It's still worthless as a single target, but in AOE situations, now you have a mana generator stronger than Verfire or Verstone, which would also allow more Enchanted Moulinets. It would slightly increase RDM AOE dps, accelerate the AOE rotation a bit, while also giving the option to conserve the mana to dump it for single target damage later.

Eh, I'm watching my blood pressure - so low sodium diet for me. ;)

I'm also conditioned on FFXI's version of RDM, and it influences my thinking whether I like it or not. Red Mage in FFXI, and also in other games as well, was never really that good at AoE. They followed the concept of 'duelist', as is common in the association with their Spanish/French fencer motif. So for me to see the level of AoE utility they currently have, I'm just more generally accepting of it. Besides, it looks as if the developers were more interested in taking some of the AoE power away from the mages as a whole, and distribute it among everyone. What with Samurai having a strong AoE set, Monk getting more utility to use their Elixer Field more frequently, and Dragoon trading up their Ring of Thorns for a more compact and usable AoE rotation.

So yeah, you combine all that and I'm kosher. I'm a big picture kinda guy.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

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Those are fair points! I think it's fair to weigh it against Samurai as a job being introduced alongside it, but I think as far as it relates to other casters, it's a matter of which caster your party wants to take for which piece of content. I maintain my stance that jobs within like categories shouldn't all be good at all the same things, but I do agree that Samurai (barring potency changes we may not yet know about) certainly seems to have MUCH more going for it in terms of desirability.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Besides, it looks as if the developers were more interested in taking some of the AoE power away from the mages as a whole, and distribute it among everyone.

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They really only lowered SMN's AoE / Fire 2 potency and buffed BLM's AoE with Thunder AoE, multiple Flares in a row thanks to Umbral Hearts / triple swiftcast, and Foul. I don't see it as a thematic trend when all they did was take away SMN's birthday presents and give them to BLM.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

They really only lowered SMN's AoE / Fire 2 potency and buffed BLM's AoE with Thunder AoE, multiple Flares in a row thanks to Umbral Hearts / triple swiftcast, and Foul. I don't see it as a thematic trend when all they did was take away SMN's birthday presents and give them to BLM.

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If you're going to go that route, you're going to have to address the Elder Primal in the room. Pretty much at the end if your second Dreadwyrm stance rotation you get a free wipe out an AoE group card in the form of two higher potency AoE OG Deathflares in the span of 30 seconds.

You're not dealing with any more salt than the other classes did in 3.0, and theirs didn't get padded with a dragon god for a pet. Any arguments past that and you're going to need to parse first.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

If you're going to go that route, you're going to have to address the Elder Primal in the room. Pretty much at the end if your second Dreadwyrm stance rotation you get a free wipe out an AoE group card in the form of two higher potency AoE OG Deathflares in the span of 30 seconds.

You're not dealing with any more salt than the other classes did in 3.0, and theirs didn't get padded with a dragon god for a pet. Any arguments past that and you're going to need to parse first.

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BLMs just call that Foul, or as Hulk would call it: puny god. In the time you build up to using Akh Morn twice, BLM has gotten mulitple Fouls. On top of everything else they have vs. what SMN lost. Let's be honest about the AoE discrepancy between the jobs instead of just wanting SMN to not have taken as big of a hit that it has.