SCH concern on DPS. Healers dps comparison

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

I believe it is no surprise that the devs are very adverse to speed runs in dungeons.

Most aoes are pretty much nerfed throughout all the roles, but I agree that Scholar really got hit bad.

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This is pretty annoying tho like why do they think people wana spend 30 mins in a dungeon, ha but hey they gave us sprint wit no tp lost speed runnin dungeons will never end

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Originally Posted by Nilix

This is mostly the case.

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For single-target. Multi target it's vastly different.

For simplicities sake, let's assume that Shadowflare, Assize and Earthly Star (all on a 60 sec CD) are similary potency spells and can be removed from the Equation.

In 24 seconds and 4 targets, the damage will look as follows:
WHM: 6200 potency
AST: 5712 potency
SCH: 2870 potency.

For Dungeons, you do NOT want to be a SCH if you want to provide any sort of meaningful damage to your party. The difference simply isn't just a few hundred DPS, it's signficantly more than that.

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Originally Posted by Hustensaft

For single-target. Multi target it's vastly different.

For simplicities sake, let's assume that Shadowflare, Assize and Earthly Star (all on a 60 sec CD) are similary potency spells and can be removed from the Equation.

In 24 seconds and 4 targets, the damage will look as follows:
WHM: 6200 potency
AST: 5712 potency
SCH: 2870 potency.

For Dungeons, you do NOT want to be a SCH if you want to provide any sort of meaningful damage to your party. The difference simply isn't just a few hundred DPS, it's signficantly more than that.

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In a perfect world with nobody taking damage, AST would be far surpassing SCH, but when you add the variable of damage taken by the tank/group, they probably get closer. Not to mention that gravity drains the MP rather quickly, and SCHs are going to have so much MP regen that they barely need to watch it. You assume that AST would be able to cast gravity perfectly for 24 straight seconds, which does not add up to me.

White Mage will probably dominate dungeon DPS in the future, thanks to holy (that stun), assize, aero iii, and thin air, but they need the damage output niche if they're to be considered over AST/SCH.

Also, consider first that there was a lot of mistranslation and miscommunication about the potencies. On top of the fact that nothing we have seen is final and is subject to change. So we'll know how things really are when early access starts

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Originally Posted by Averax

In a perfect world with nobody taking damage, AST would be far surpassing SCH, but when you add the variable of damage taken by the tank/group, they probably get closer. Not to mention that gravity drains the MP rather quickly, and SCHs are going to have so much MP regen that they barely need to watch it. You assume that AST would be able to cast gravity perfectly for 24 straight seconds, which does not add up to me.

White Mage will probably dominate dungeon DPS in the future, thanks to holy (that stun), assize, aero iii, and thin air, but they need the damage output niche if they're to be considered over AST/SCH.
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According to the tooltips we currently have (JP ones), Broil II, which is what the SCH will be spamming, costs 960 MP. Gravity costs twice that at 1920.

Let that sink in for a second.

Additionally SCH mana regen will now be identical to WHM's, with 10% aetherize every 60 seconds (same as new Assize), and Lucid Dreaming for shroud effect. Energy Drain can supplement, but you generally want to lustrate or excogitation the tank or indom the party in the event that damage goes out so that you don't have to break DPS to heal.

No, it's pretty bad, and ASTs most certainly can get away with 8-9 Gravity in 24 seconds.

I notice that everyones talkin about aoe damage but , all healers are gettin screwed in the fact that we cant stack dots anymore because our dps skills upgrade depending on level. So for instance an astro want have combust 1 and 2 and level 70, whm cant stack aero 1, 2 , 3 together. So overall we are all being effected in a negative way.

The extra DPS generated for the 12 seconds that Chain Strategm is up is huge. Tens of thousands of damage. Technically that damage is "our contribution" to DPS. Similar to how NIN's 10% Trick Attack bonus adds up to tens of thousands of extra damage during its duration, NIN isn't often credited with that damage, the DRGs, BLMs, and MNKs are.

So I'm confused. I saw I think it was in mizzteqs video showing the new tooltips that bane was 80% decreased potency for 5+ enemies. Right now it's half potency from 4-however many you can get at once. But then I'm reading max is 20% potency decresase past 5 enemies, wouldn't that be a gain then? Too much confusion lol

80% decreased = 20% of regular potency.

So from 70 potency/tick it drops it to 14/tick.

Basically it will now do 2/5ths of what it did in HW for 5 mobs.

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Originally Posted by koroko220

So I'm confused. I saw I think it was in mizzteqs video showing the new tooltips that bane was 80% decreased potency for 5+ enemies. Right now it's half potency from 4-however many you can get at once. But then I'm reading max is 20% potency decresase past 5 enemies, wouldn't that be a gain then? Too much confusion lol

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From the JP tooltip, it decreases 20% per enemy applied, so when spreading off the primary target it's 100% to the first, 80% to the 2nd, 60% to the 3rd, and so on down to 20%.

Wooowww so it is what I thought.... as much damage as dots now WITHOUT cleric :( that's definitely really terrible.

Keep in mind that the SCH playstyle is much better suited for offhealer. They get a substantial amount of hps, without interrupting their DPS rotation at all. WHMs max DPS rotation gives higher numbers, but provides very little healing potential when performing their DPS rotation.

SCH also has higher DPS potential when mobile.

SCH still have their pet. Pet is like whm regen that tick heal, but you dont need waste single gcd healing with pet. If whm want keep regen on tank they need waste 3 gcds in minute that is worth of 3x stones = 780 potency dps loss every min. And pet can swap targets time to time unlike whm need waste another gcd if they want put another regen on another target. And ya sch can still use ruin 2 while moving so it is more mobile than other healers.

Don't forget WHM have assize with 60s cd now, that heals and dmg at the same time. With the cleric stance change, whm won't be interrupting their dps rotation much as they have aero 3, aero 2 and don't forget about presence of mind

With the removal of cleric stance, our pet is a void point to make. Our raw heals are not as strong, you don't need to stance dance anymore at all. The increased nerf in DPS in combination with the removal of cleric stance as it is now has a significant impact. I also believe people are overstating Stratagem largly. It's to be believed that this is not a 20% crit buff as it's not a raw buff like Litany. Instead, it's more a 5-8% buff, if not lower.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

With the removal of cleric stance, our pet is a void point to make. Our raw heals are not as strong, you don't need to stance dance anymore at all. The increased nerf in DPS in combination with the removal of cleric stance as it is now has a significant impact. I also believe people are overstating Stratagem largly. It's to be believed that this is not a 20% crit buff as it's not a raw buff like Litany. Instead, it's more a 5-8% buff, if not lower.

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The 17% potency nerf on embrace should also be noted. It will be a large hit to our passive healing, meaning more personal responsibility healing to keep the status quo, meaning lower dps on top of our lower potencies, higher mp costs etc etc.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

snip.

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20% from aetherflow, there will be a trait later on which makes it the same as it is now, on top of the fact that there will be another trait that gives you a chance to reduce the cooldown on aetherflow every time you use an ability that takes up a charge. Scholars will have no problems at all with MP.

Scholars also can rely on their fairy to heal the party's damage for a little bit, whereas ASTs will have to stop and heal. Unless your group is God, then there's no way they'll avoid taking damage for an entire trash pull.

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Originally Posted by Averax

20% from aetherflow, there will be a trait later on which makes it the same as it is now, on top of the fact that there will be another trait that gives you a chance to reduce the cooldown on aetherflow every time you use an ability that takes up a charge. Scholars will have no problems at all with MP.

Scholars also can rely on their fairy to heal the party's damage for a little bit, whereas ASTs will have to stop and heal. Unless your group is God, then there's no way they'll avoid taking damage for an entire trash pull.

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There currently is no such trait. It remains 10% even at 70. The trait you are talking about has two numbers in it, one is 10 for the amount of seconds it can be reduced by and 20% for the chance of it happening, nowhere does it state a potency increase. MP problems are for sure a concern especially if you math it out at our level 70 cost versus refresh rate.

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Originally Posted by Averax

20% from aetherflow, there will be a trait later on which makes it the same as it is now, on top of the fact that there will be another trait that gives you a chance to reduce the cooldown on aetherflow every time you use an ability that takes up a charge. Scholars will have no problems at all with MP.

Scholars also can rely on their fairy to heal the party's damage for a little bit, whereas ASTs will have to stop and heal. Unless your group is God, then there's no way they'll avoid taking damage for an entire trash pull.

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You'll have to link me this trait because I've never seen it. It's not in the Famitsu scans, either. Are you misreading the new level 68 one?

I am aware that the tooltips in the San Francisco English demo build said 20%, but they recovered only 10% in the actual SCH gameplay footage from the event and the Famitsu article is considered the most recent information we have.

I actually don't care as much about the dps nerfs. The removal of cleric stance is a huge blow.

Part of the beauty of the scholar role was this extra level of challenge. Provided some interest in tome grind of running of basically low difficulty dungeon content. With ex primals and harder content, I would first learn the mechanics of the fight and focus on healing and less stance dancing. Then I would start to incorporate stances and look at squeezing out as much dps as possible.

I think they should have gone in the direction of further pushing the dps/healing dynamic. Maybe a concept like smn where certain skills become accessible when some attunement gauge is full or when cleric is active (fey union being one of the options).

But then again, maybe Square has worked on the other half of this equation: the content design. Perhaps new elements have been incorporated that will help mitigate the removal of this layer with cleric stance. Time will tell.

And sorry but this cross class skill thing sounded interesting but looks to be pointless. Of the ten skills, why would I choose anything other than cleric, esuna, protect, swiftcast and eye for eye in dungeons? What in the new content could possibly incentivize me to think that the other skills would be attractive alternatives? Break is meh, I don't need an enmity reduction, i have a healing buff via eos and rescue is highly situational. Maybe they come into play when doing 8 man content and working with a second healer if the fight has specific situations. They gutted white mage for this?

From the new skill we are getting in SB, nothing its game changing or anything like that ( not that it needs to be) we are just getting more toys to play with. But what is changing the gameplay entirely is those huge dps nerfs and CS changing. I don't know if I'm the only one but as our level get higher, we should be feeling more powerful? maybe capable of doing more? I'm feeling we are getting weaker in SB. I think SCH have a unique set of skill and ways of contributing to the pt on their own not only healing. WHM and AST can cover the healing aspect way better. I have the fear that maybe we will be seen as " Oh here it comes the 20% crit " and "Its a shame AST doesn't have crit cards or else we could bring 2 ASTs to the raid!"

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Originally Posted by Tehol

And sorry but this cross class skill thing sounded interesting but looks to be pointless. Of the ten skills, why would I choose anything other than cleric, esuna, protect, swiftcast and eye for eye in dungeons? What in the new content could possibly incentivize me to think that the other skills would be attractive alternatives? Break is meh, I don't need an enmity reduction, i have a healing buff via eos and rescue is highly situational. Maybe they come into play when doing 8 man content and working with a second healer if the fight has specific situations. They gutted white mage for this?

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You're going to want Lucid Dreaming due to both the aetherize reduction and the increased costs of all SCH spells. Honestly Cleric Stance as it is now will be pretty trash, as it's only a 5% buff for 15 seconds with a 90 second cooldown.

im kind of sad that SCH and the fairy took a hit for SB. Like this really makes me mad. I dunno who thinks SCH is op but i don't think it is, SCH was actually in my opinion the only healer class that was really balanced and had its role clearly defined when it came out. Now with the unnecessary Astro buff its like what is the point of having an SCH anymore?

Nerfing eos is stupid because SCH already have lower heals then the other which we needed eos to make up for it, so lowering that heal from eos is clearly screwing with SCH's a bit. The new tether healing i feel is good and bad, its cool that now you can make eos focus heal a tank since i know thats what most SCH would have liked to have the ability to make eos focus healing someone when needed but i dislike the fact that eos or selene lose all their abilities during that time, yes you can turn it off but its like whats the point of doing that? it would have been better if during the tether duration a SCH has to manually use eos skills except for embrace but thats not the casue. i feel like this in a raid scene wouldnt be so viable because you have to healers and if both healers can't get the tank topped off before anything else happens clearly something went wrong.

they should have given sch's one more atherflow stack, since its already hard for SCH's to regain mana during raid fights if they don't manage it properly. i see how a lot of people say SCH have almost an unlimited mana pool or have a good way of recovering mana, but they don't, we have to share our stacks with indom, lustrate, soil and energy drain. i as a SCH usually never use energy drain unless i know i can afford it in a fight, usually i will save it for indom, or lustrate..

You know, it suddenly occurred to me that bane is an ability that merely spreads dots and reduces the damage based on each target it is spread to.

SCH only has two dots in SB that last a decently long time

You can just cast Bio and Miasma on two/three targets for full damage and maintain them rather easily.

And though i havn't seen the raw numbers, i think bio on a bunch of the other targets might offer more damage on 5+ targets, along with your miasma on two/three targets.

I actually hope these changes hint at a higher healing requirement.
I agree with people saying that little damage > zero damage tho