Cleric Stance removed??

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Originally Posted by velw

The current Cleric Stance is a 10% buff for as long as I want it, with my damage calculated based on my (usual) MND stat because it's been swapped with INT.

The new Cleric Stance is a 5% buff for 15 seconds with a 90 second cool-down, and damage calculated based on MND because... ?

Both of these are "optional", but there's no way I can match the damage of the first with the second.

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Two arguements can be made
1) Afaik we don't know the formula being used to calculate healer damage exactly, who's to say it doesn't account for the gain you would have previously had in cleric stance?

2) Let's say it doesn't account, we could also argue that you'll gain dps in effective up-time on the boss due to not being locked out from healing or dps ever. Being able to seamlessly transition from healing to dps without needing to worry about a stance or it's cooldown (albeit a low cooldown)

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Originally Posted by RaijinSupreme

But you're quitting. Why are you having a discussion about a game you're quitting? Do you just want to continue hammering about a topic that you're no longer a part of?

I mean that's cool.

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Because we all know they are not quitting, just blowing some steam.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Then just keep attacking? Big whoop you got a little nerf to your damage but don't need to worry about Cleric not turning off when you need to heal. Tank damage is ALSO going down since its going back to STR instead of VIT, all this means is that DDs need to do their job while Healer damage is still nice to have while also being easier for newbie healers to get into.

But if this is what gets you to quit? Well, I hope you enjoy whatever else you play! Enjoy life!

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It's interesting to put it in the context of the tank damage. But Cleric isn't something I "worry about" because when you've learned how to use it it's very rarely an issue, certainly not to the extent of wiping, and as has already been said if the idea is to make things easier then where does that end? I think losing this dynamic is going to degrade the experience of playing healing jobs, and that's why I've written about it here.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Because removing a button that was problematic for people at times (likely to do with latency) is *completely* the same thing as things dying if you look at them.

Hyperbole train is ---> that way.

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And the issue with reducing the cooldown from 5 seconds to 3 or 2 was?

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Originally Posted by Ogulbuk

Because we all know they are not quitting, just blowing some steam.

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Exactly.

/10chars

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Originally Posted by velw

Do DPS-ing healers actually win? Right now I'm not sure they do.

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Dpsing healers win because non-dpsing healers don't have their biggest reason to pull now - "I might kill everyone by getting stuck in CS!" :P

I'm not going to speak for the majority of dpsing healers, but I'm guessing the majority does indeed approve of this even though it means dpsing is now simplified. In my opinion, CS didn't add much of any challenge once you got used to it anyways, and learned that 90% of the time it doesn't even kill anyone if you go into CS at the wrong time, and that you can't "accidentally turn it on" unless you hit the wrong button or don't realize that it queues it no matter what section of a spell you're in. All the change does is open healer dps up to the less confident players, while taking away a not-so-engaging mechanic anyways.

We MAY take a hit to our dps, but as Jiao noted: We have no idea if MND will be weighted higher in the damage calculation formula for healers than INT is now. We could do the same exact amount of damage. Even if we don't, it's 10% less, it's still contributing no matter what, so who cares?

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

For someone who doesn't appreciate your opinion being spat on by others you're being a massive hypocrite.

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Perhaps you should go back and read it again. No one's spitting on anyone. It's an example of respectful disagreement. Perhaps you can try it sometime.

So toggling a skill on and off is the peak of skillful gameplay and trumps any and all benefits/freedom by not being gated by it? That is the sole reason healing is fun?

And yes, i stance dance all the time and welcome this change.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

It's an overall 10% DPS loss but it's an overall 20% heal buff if you want to look at it that way because when you switched to DPS mode with old Cleric you took a 20% heal nerf on top of swapping MND and INT.

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That only applies if I heal with it active. Which, almost all of the time, I don't.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

You also don't have to worry about it not toggling when you want it to because you're now always in DPS mode.

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Well, yeah. But as I said, I think it's a shame. Personally, I like toggling it. It's part of the experience and skill of playing the job.

Consider the following: When fighting a boss and activating Cleric, it was extremely rare for you to enter Cleric for 5s or less. What this essentially means is that Cleric only existed as a toggle, a pointless button to press to turn on and off your ability to do damage. By removing it all that's essentially been done is you have 1 less button to press while maintaining the same playstyle. You still have to map out when and where you're going to use DPS GCDs, it's just now you're not locked out of healing for 5s when you DPS - which was a pointless limitation since it didn't affect anyone unless they accidentally tapped Cleric twice and turned it back on. They wanted to prune pointless abilities and Cleric is one of them.

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Originally Posted by velw

Right now I'm wishing I hadn't pre-ordered this expansion. They might as well have just taken my money and set fire to it. :mad:

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This is why you never pre-order anything. Buying something before you know what it actually is makes no sense. When will people learn?

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Originally Posted by velw

You're entitled to your opinion. I don't agree with it.

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But you do as you are quitting the game.

You must be very immature to have adopted that sort of attitude towards changes. Hope you find the right game the carters for your liking

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Originally Posted by velw

I have definitely seen discussions where players who like WHM have been discussing other jobs and have said they've wished they could use Cleric Stance on those jobs.

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WHMs discussing other jobs have little to do with Cleric Stance every job is getting rebalanced and WHM is getting the least good stuff.

i've never seen people wishing for Cleric Stance on a job that didn't have it. what job are you talking about BLM/SMN? how would that work and why would they want Cleric Stance?

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Originally Posted by velw

Perhaps you should go back and read it again. No one's spitting on anyone. It's an example of respectful disagreement. Perhaps you can try it sometime.

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I don't find snark or sarcasm particularly respectful with regards to disagreement. Try again.

I just find it funny that this is your biggest complaint about 4.0 WHM.

Some people liked the stance dancing thing but my impression is that most welcome this change, regardless of their skill level and how much dps they normally do.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

I just find it funny that this is your biggest complaint about 4.0 WHM.

Some people liked the stance dancing thing but my impression is that most welcome this change, regardless of their skill level and how much dps they normally do.

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considering there doesn't seem to be any viable one-handed weapon & shield builds... the concept of a 'Cleric' is completely lost. i am glad something is changing.

This thread can be summarized in 3 words:

OP is overreacting.

How do you not see that the Cleric Stance change is a *really* good thing for healers? As people have said, using Cleric Stance did not require skill at all and was just a toggle that 'locked' half your abilities. Having that annoying prereq removed is a godsend and will alleviate a lot of stress. Not having to worry about stance-dancing makes playing healers a lot better and will likely encourage players that never played that role to give it a try. I've known enough people that were put off on healing because of it (even myself, even though I pushed through and leveled them all to 60).

I welcome this change, as well as many others. This has been requested for ages and I'm really glad to actually see it happen now. If this is enough reason for you to stop playing OP, you were never really invested in the game to begin with. Hell, my main is SMN and I don't particularly enjoy the changes being made to that, which tbf are way more harsh than what changed with CS.

Will I still play it? Yes. I'm still curious as to how things will work now, even if I don't really like it.

You can't be sure how things will work if you don't give it a goddamn try! Spouting all this salt, 2 weeks before EA, is entirely pointless and you know it.

Might as well write down the names of all the people threatening to quit so you can laugh when you see them still ingame in 4.0. Nobody is quitting over a skill change. This promotes newer healers to contribute, and good healers will not be any less bored by not stance dancing.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

WHMs discussing other jobs have little to do with Cleric Stance every job is getting rebalanced and WHM is getting the least good stuff.

i've never seen people wishing for Cleric Stance on a job that didn't have it. what job are you talking about BLM/SMN? how would that work and why would they want Cleric Stance?

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Duh! So BLM can throw out some heals every once in awhile! It's like the opposite "healer won't dps" syndrome. Caster won't heal!

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Duh! So BLM can throw out some heals every once in awhile! It's like the opposite "healer won't dps" syndrome. Caster won't heal!

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Start a petition. Healing DPSers should totally be the new meta. Next expansion Tanks (or at least Paladins) can heal.

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Originally Posted by velw

Just seen some coverage of Stormblood changes to WHM, including removing Cleric Stance and turning it into some Divine Damage Seal.
. "Oh but there\\\\\\'s a tricky cooldown"... yes, and to achieve anything in the game there\\\\\\'s a tricky *something*, because that\\\\\\'s how games work - challenge and reward. If you don\\\\\\'t like it, play another job. The people playing this job do. THAT\\\\\\'S WHY THEY\\\\\\'RE STILL.

Right now I\\\\\\'m wishing I hadn\\\\\\'t pre-ordered this expansion. They might as well have just taken my money and set fire to it. :mad:

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Things change. Get over it. The game is NOT your vision, it\\\\\\'s the directors, you subscribe to play his vision, if things change and you don\\\\' like it BYE

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Originally Posted by velw

That only applies if I heal with it active. Which, almost all of the time, I don'tl.



Well, yeah. But as I said, I think it's a shame. Personally, I like toggling it. It's part of the experience and skill of playing the job.

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I'm glad you personally liked it. I personally liked casting Stoneskin. You know the difference between you and I...you can still do what you like. You can still toggle that button for a 5% buff increase. Not only that but you'll be able to assize more often with the lily speed buff. I'm sorry you're losing your 10% all the time for a 5% some of the time. As far as changes to our class goes, that really is the least of them. The new skill you'll have to master is getting enough confession stacks on enough people to make Pinary worth it.

The whole stance dancing with CS was annoying and tedious. It won't be missed.

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Originally Posted by velw

The current Cleric Stance is a 10% buff for as long as I want it, with my damage calculated based on my (usual) MND stat because it's been swapped with INT.

The new Cleric Stance is a 5% buff for 15 seconds with a 90 second cool-down, and damage calculated based on MND because... ?

Both of these are "optional", but there's no way I can match the damage of the first with the second.

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Yeah, you're not getting it. Healer damage is going to scale with mind instead of intelligence. You are going to be doing a lot more than the old 10% buff gave because they switched it to scale with mind. The new cleric stance change isn't a nerf, it's a buff across the board for all healer damage.

Kool! Between all the WHMs quitting over their changes and this, those of us left planning to level a healer in 16 days should have insta-queues.

Personally, I've always disliked Cleric Stance. It feels clumsy to use, and never really added to my enjoyment of the class. I'm pretty happy to see its removal.

I always hated stance dancing as I always hit Cleric twice when trying to switch out of it due to somewhat shaky hands. The change to it is a welcome one for me honestly.

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Originally Posted by velw

This is not something you just f- about with.

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Actually yes, yes it is. Everything can be tweaked and improved. The meltdown I've seen over some of the changes is honestly frown-worthy, especially considering that 99.99999% of the people complaining haven't played Stormblood and its classes for a single second.

Incidentally, at the Media Tour Yoshida repeated multiple times that all tooltips are very much not final, and that people should not base their calculations on them, becayse they're subject to change and final adjustment. Quite amazed to see how some heard that strong recommendation and still made plenty of videos that are nothing but tooltips.

Cleric Stance was clunky, and it seems like the vast majority of the community is very accepting of the change. Moreover, this will help alleviate some of the anxiety associated with throwing out some DPS as a healer. The change might make XIV's healers feel a little bit less dynamic, but it also serve to streamline things.

If you want something more stance-dancey nowadays, it looks like BRD might be worth trying.

Honestly, if WHM is your main, I think there are other changes that are more frustrating than the removal of Cleric Stance ^^/

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Originally Posted by missybee

If you want something more stance-dancey nowadays, it looks like BRD might be worth trying.

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I stopped playing bard when HW came out cause of the changes but if the new SB changes remove them from being a bowmage I will most likely go back and check it out when SB releases, otherwise it will remain on the shelf.

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Originally Posted by Seredeelfer

Kool! Between all the WHMs quitting over their changes and this, those of us left planning to level a healer in 16 days should have insta-queues.

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I like you. I didn't even think of that. Good job SE. Come on insta_queues \o/ :)

I don't like Cleric Stance. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like casting without it, where everything is smooth and based on mind.

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Originally Posted by velw

I never claimed to represent anyone other than myself

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Originally Posted by velw

The people playing this job do. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE STILL PLAYING IT.

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Huh? Many seem to like the change based on this thread so maybe you should just take your hissy fit elsewhere

Bye felicia

It's a button you pressed to turn on damage mode, now damage scales from mind rather than int. If that's all it takes to get you to leave, you weren't all that attached to the game in the first place.

With all the healers "quitting" over this, the queues are going to be wonderful for me.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

I don't like Cleric Stance. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like casting without it, where everything is smooth and based on mind.

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Even here i can find quality star wars memes.

Cleric Stance had a specific use in V1.0 it only stuck around because offensive skills used INT and healing spells used MND. That has everything to do with the cross-class system. It also points out a weakness in the original implementation because you could take more skills as a class than a job, but most of what you could take would end up rubbish because you didn't have the relevant secondary trait anyway.

Dump the cross-class system, and now there is no point to having cleric stance because all your damage spells are yours alone and not cross-classed. Now all spells are equal cast times instead of adding 5 seconds round trip to switch in and out and bad WHM's can't stay in CS 100%. That solves so many problems for playing the WMH solo content as well as solving the problem of only being allowed to use half your skill toolbox depending on the stance or be penalized.

Like there is no reason to hate this change.

Someone's been using internet explorer lol. It has been discussed over and over again. Just let the upcoming change pass and if you didn't like it, then either pick a new role, or pick a new game to play. Stop being a drama queen. Changes are refreshing; also, it's just 1 button forcomplicate

Glad Cleric stance has been changed it failing to drop off or come on when I hit the key has been nothing but annoying.

Honestly I am not a fan of the cleric stance removal because it makes the dps aspect of healers extremely dull. With no risk reward there is no thought needed and its just button spamming there isn't even anything close to a rotation to maintain. Its literally removed any skill aspect from healer dps. A drinking bird could probably manage the rotation.

That said it is a minor issue and is just a mild disappointment for me. The change seems very popular among a lot of people. Its not enough to really put me off the role.

The WHM mechanical changes however fill me with mountains of salt. That is a somewhat separate issue though.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

I stopped playing bard when HW came out cause of the changes but if the new SB changes remove them from being a bowmage I will most likely go back and check it out when SB releases, otherwise it will remain on the shelf.

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Rejoice. You will be able to pointlessly run all over the battlefield and spam jump as much as you like without worrying about cast times. Unfortunately, those of us that actually liked the HW play style have no way to continue enjoying it.

But hey, you can run and sprint to your heart's content.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Rejoice. You will be able to pointlessly run all over the battlefield and spam jump as much as you like without worrying about cast times. Unfortunately, those of us that actually liked the HW play style have no way to continue enjoying it.

But hey, you can run and sprint to your heart's content.

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Well to be fair they just putting it back the way it was so the 2.0 bards lost their playstyle when 3.0 released. So can't really say feel sorry for 3.0 bards.