#RIPRDM

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Originally Posted by xyaie

that is extremely helpful. is there a higher resolution version though?

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here you go

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...3456/image.jpg

I'm getting the feeling I wrongly title this thread (which I did as a joke to start with). it seems this thread is becoming a place do gather RDM info

It does. We only have this and "red mage abilities" (made before even the live letter) to choose from though (or make our own thread, but that's far too much work)

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

It seems like you can jump between casting and melee at will it just the melee abilties will be a lower potency if you do try and do this. but to get the most benifit from melee you need to charge the "balance" bars

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Assuming this is real (apparently, some guy on twitter came on to say that the image is not a legit Gamer Escape image), you need to be at 85/85 to gain full benefits from enhanced melee attacks. You also pretty much have to get to 85/85 because you want to use Holy and Flare, which according to the image are comboed off Redoublement, so I wouldn't say you use melee skills at will. If you do, like I predicted, you'd basically be no different from an ice mage.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Assuming this is real (apparently, some guy on twitter came on to say that the image is not a legit Gamer Escape image), you need to be at 85/85 to gain full benefits from enhanced melee attacks. You also pretty much have to get to 85/85 because you want to use Holy and Flare, which according to the image are comboed off Redoublement, so I wouldn't say you use melee skills at will. If you do, like I predicted, you'd basically be no different from an ice mage.

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Theoretically, you'd also switch to using melee if you get low on MP since from what I'm seeing of the image (assuming it is legit) there aren't any (known) MP restoring abilities.

Another difference I'm seeing from what we originally knew include Impact not requiring a proc (apparently) and Impact giving 0 mana as opposed to 4 (presumably if you need to hold your mana/procs for a phase change or something I guess? That or if you are <= 11 away on a single mana ability at the start of a pair and have no procs [or your required mana is between 10-11 if you do have a proc] it is a DPS increase to use Impact > proper 11 mana spell than 5s cast the 11 mana one)

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Originally Posted by spelley

Theoretically, you'd also switch to using melee if you get low on MP since from what I'm seeing of the image (assuming it is legit) there aren't any (known) MP restoring abilities.

Another difference I'm seeing from what we originally knew include Impact not requiring a proc (apparently) and Impact giving 0 mana as opposed to 4 (presumably if you need to hold your mana/procs for a phase change or something I guess? That or if you are <= 11 away on a single mana ability at the start of a pair and have no procs [or your required mana is between 10-11 if you do have a proc] it is a DPS increase to use Impact > proper 11 mana spell than 5s cast the 11 mana one)

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From what I can tell you can still do holy/flare at full damage you just don't get the added benefit from the combo. There might be uses for this kind of like smns doing ruin III outside dreadwyrm. With cooldowns and such it could get interesting.

Speaking of, it looks like acceleration matches the cooldown of displacement, and holy/flare 100% proc stone/fire if the other mana is higher. So it looks like proper rotations will involve building to 85 with one higher than the other(lets assume we're at 85 white, 89 black). Melee combo -> holy -> stone -> acceleration -> chain cast thunder -> fire. It's probably different cause I don't know exactly how mana will balance but that rotation leaves you with 30white, 24 black and chain cast up so you can go right back into a thunder or aero. From there you'd go back into the normal proc rotation. We also do get swift cast from role skills so you can swiftcast aero/thunder sometimes to further mix things up. Manafication also mixes things up too. That will give you a much quicker melee combo but you'd probably not make the cooldown on acceleration coming out of it.

One big question is can raise be combat cast? Actually even bigger than that does chain spell work on raise? That would give rdm raise with a gcd cast time. Assuming this is accurate I'm liking what I see and think rdm is going to be a hell of a lot of fun to play.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

One big question is can raise be combat cast? Actually even bigger than that does chain spell work on raise? That would give rdm raise with a gcd cast time. Assuming this is accurate I'm liking what I see and think rdm is going to be a hell of a lot of fun to play.

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It looks like verraise looks like a combat raise but at 3600mp its expensive and doesn't add to the balance bars
vercure will be like BLM trying to cure (ie badly)

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

It looks like verraise looks like a combat raise but at 3600mp its expensive and doesn't add to the balance bars
vercure will be like BLM trying to cure (ie badly)

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New RDM: "Whee, look at me healing! Cures for days!"
Party: "How nice for you; we were very nervously sitting at 90% max HP until you came along. Now, please follow the actual healer's example and hit a mob."

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

It looks like verraise looks like a combat raise but at 3600mp its expensive and doesn't add to the balance bars
vercure will be like BLM trying to cure (ie badly)

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Yeah I'm not expecting to be a healer or anything but still raise is nice. And it does look like mp is easier to come by now. Personally we have lucid dream to help, and there's the role skill to transfer(sorry blms). And now brds and mch don't need to lose dps to do it. We won't be spamming raise by any means but it is a nice bit of utility to add to the class.

I don't know the way the rest of the comunity is talking they are disapointed that Vercure scales off MND instaed of INT like they want to try and shoehorn RDM into a backup healer, which from what i'm seeing is not going to happen

Keep in mind, Vercure is RDM's equivalent of SMN's Physick. Therefore it scales off of MND, so it'll be bad.

Incoming rant! Edit below.

I'll be honest, seeing that Vercure scales off Mind is a disappointment. The only reason why Black Mage and Summoner had Physick is because it was something Scholar needed at that lower level in order to perform (setting aside the fact that the fairy can do all the work). Physick essentially didn't belong on either Black Mage or Summoner, but when I saw that Red Mage had its own dedicated healing spell that wasn't forcefully put there, my hope was that it would at least be decent for emergency situations. You can have a job with a moderately low single target healing spell that doesn't make it compete with the role of a healer.

Even if Vercure only had a potency of 100, but scaled with Intelligence, it would be better. Vercure scaling with Mind makes it near useless which makes it near pointless for it to even be there whereas with Summoner there was at least a reason and that reason was for it to be used by Scholar. Yes that might sound silly, but basically, if Summoner was designed independently it wouldn't have had a healing spell. Red Mage didn't need to have a healing spell so when we see that Red Mage was given one when there wasn't a need for it I would have appreciated for it to not be so pathetically weak.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm actually not saying that Red Mage should be able to heal at a moderately low level that's relevant only for emergency situations (however if any DPS job were to bring that utility it should be Red Mage). I'm more upset that Red Mage has something on their hotbar that is barely worth using. The same could be said for their AoE bind spell which will honestly probably save people from dying more often than Valcure.

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Originally Posted by Kaebora

It seems like Vercure scales reasonably well. 5.5-5.8k heals, which are respectable enough emergency heals to buy time to raise casters or top folks off in an emergency.

https://gfycat.com/InbornAppropriateDwarfrabbit

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Thank you!

From reading this article: https://gamerescape.com/2017/05/30/f...lysis-casters/

1. "The three melee weaponskills; Riposte, Zwerchhau, and Redoublement combine for a potency of 510, however if you have at least 80 of both mana you will instead do the “Enchanted” version of each weaponskill, which combine for (tent) 930 potency, nearly doubling the power." This means that Enchanted Redoublement has 430 potency.
2. The above quote also states "above 80" meaning that the costs are likely 30 > 25 > 25 as we saw in the Job Actions video (which makes sense)
3. (From another video on Reddit) Verraise is affected by Chainspell, meaning quick rezzes akin to Swiftcast + Res from SMN
4. No word on whether the Cure spell operates on MND or INT. I am assuming INT and if so, means this could save a party member who is close to death from planned raid-wide damage if the Healer is slacking/patching up other people.
5. Red Mage actively benefits from having unbalanced Mana upon using the Finisher, putting to rest the notion that having perfectly even mana might be a mechanic.
6. Red Mage, between casts of Manification (fun name to say, by the way), will be spending quite a bit of time casting.

It seems like Vercure scales reasonably well. 5.5-5.8k heals, which are respectable enough emergency heals to buy time to raise casters or top folks off in an emergency.

https://gfycat.com/InbornAppropriateDwarfrabbit

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Keep in mind, Vercure is RDM's equivalent of SMN's Physick. Therefore it scales off of MND, so it'll be bad.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

I'll be honest, seeing that Vercure scales off Mind is a disappointment.

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No where in either the GamerEscape article *or* the graphic specifically mentions that the skill scales off of Mind. They merely mentioned that it has the same potency as Physick. I could see it being either way, but nothing here suggests one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Kaebora

It seems like Vercure scales reasonably well. 5.5-5.8k heals, which are respectable enough emergency heals to buy time to raise casters or top folks off in an emergency.

https://gfycat.com/InbornAppropriateDwarfrabbit

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I kind of like the way that works. I forgot vercure would give dual cast. One situation that comes to mind is those meteor things on cloud of darkness and scathic(might have spelled wrong). For a mechanic like that a rdm standing in one can then cure themselves and do a quick cast aero/thunder and be right back into our rotation. Jolt isn't amazing so you wouldn't lose much by using one gcd on a cure.

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Originally Posted by spelley

No where in either the GamerEscape article *or* the graphic specifically mentions that the skill scales off of Mind. They merely mentioned that it has the same potency as Physick. I could see it being either way, but nothing here suggests one or the other.

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Oh I was basing my comment on Mr. Happy's video analysis of Red Mage which was uploaded a few hours ago.

FFXIV Stormblood: Red Mage COMPLETE Ability Overview & Thoughts (Media Tour)

@8:15

My assumption was that he at least tried it, but looking at the numbers provided by Kaebora, Vercure heals for around 20%-25% of their maximum HP which is not a "super low potency comparable to a Black Mage Physick in 3.0" as described by Mr. Happy.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

I don't know the way the rest of the comunity is talking they are disapointed that Vercure scales off MND instaed of INT like they want to try and shoehorn RDM into a backup healer, which from what i'm seeing is not going to happen

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The main problem is that no one needs a backup healer except perhaps in the rare instance where there are no living healers and the situation can still be recovered.

Is it a terrible thing to have the option, though? No. Is it a terrible thing for DPS to get the idea that they should be trying to backup heal as a practice? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

The main problem is that no one needs a backup healer except perhaps in the rare instance where there are no living healers and the situation can still be recovered.

Is it a terrible thing to have the option, though? No. Is it a terrible thing for DPS to get the idea that they should be trying to backup heal as a practice? Absolutely.

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it might be OK in situations where the healer has croaked, the RDM could in theory while healing the tank raise the healer but raising the rest of the party I think would be pushing it or at least a waste of MP

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

OK unless i'm miss understanding the following:-

https://68.media.tumblr.com/aa2087ea...isko1_1280.jpg

It seems like you can jump between casting and melee at will it just the melee abilties will be a lower potency if you do try and do this. but to get the most benifit from melee you need to charge the "balance" bars

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Not just a lower potency, but a much higher gcd. The recast on the upgraded versions is a full second less. It's a very significant difference.

I am so excited! Red Mage is officially going to be my new main DPS! I'm so excited to blast some spells and not have to think about dots!!!

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

it might be OK in situations where the healer has croaked, the RDM could in theory while healing the tank raise the healer but raising the rest of the party I think would be pushing it or at least a waste of MP

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I'm imagining a scenario where you've just dropped a Vercure on the tank, used the Dualcast to raise the healer, and keep healing the tank while the actual healer gets back on their feet. Not super effective, no. But better than wiping.

I am curious of anything is worried that the AoE damage of a Red Mage will be a bit underwhelming, particularly for a caster. For the most part Red Mage will be repeatedly casting Scatter which has a potency of 100. If the tooltip Additional Effect information is accurate, it would seem every other Scatter will generate a higher amount of mana. After six casts of Scatter, enough mana will have been accumulated to use Enchanted Moulinet which has a potency of 200. It can be used once, then its back to Scatter to reacquire mana. The only other offensive AoE action is Contre Sixte which has a potency of 300 and a recast of 45 seconds.

Perhaps those numbers aren't low, but I would consider them far from impressive. I would have liked to see Verflare and Verholy as AoE spells, scaling down with additional enemies, with Enchanted Moulinet working as a setup for the combo requirement. At the very least I feel like that would make the AoE combat feel more satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

Perhaps those numbers aren't low, but I would consider them far from impressive.

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AOE was pretty heavily nerfed across all classes. Almost everything has fall off now, including bane. Speaking of smns and scholars shadow flare isn't permanent, miasma II is gone, bliz II is gone etc. Mch turret has fall off now. I honestly kind of wonder why they bother to put aoe in the game cause clearly they don't want us using it.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

AOE was pretty heavily nerfed across all classes. Almost everything has fall off now, including bane. Speaking of smns and scholars shadow flare isn't permanent, miasma II is gone, bliz II is gone etc. Mch turret has fall off now. I honestly kind of wonder why they bother to put aoe in the game cause clearly they don't want us using it.

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For the most part yes, except for Black Mage. According to the new tooltip information, Flare now only scales down to 30% less damage rather than 50%. Thunder IV and Foul have been added while the changes to Blizzard IV allow for more casts of Fire II. I would not be the least bit surprised if Black Mage became the new AoE king. Summoner is harder to judge because their AoE is now entirely focused on ability usage.

Red Mage is pretty awesome. Cure, Raise, Flare and Holy.

I just worry about their MP.

I don't know Red has it all like Lunar has said, even the potency of most of it's attacks seem higher then that of SAM. Not saying it will out dps it of course, but having cure, raise, holy and flare is rather awesome

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Originally Posted by Maero

even the potency of most of it's attacks seem higher then that of SAM.

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Nah, nothing holds a candle to SAM potencies. Their combo finishers are 400 potency, they have a 800 potency attack(though on a 2 min cooldown), and a whopping 1080potency(cause no one is ever doing midare without kaiten) attack that can be done every 6 gcds. Sam is raw power and rdm is about speed.

I feel RDM is going to be a lot of fun. That's from just looking at the ability list. The casting alone looks fun. It enhances the swordplay, but yet the swordplay is still there to mess around with solo, if you don't feel like casting all the time. The 16th can't get here fast enough!

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Nah, nothing holds a candle to SAM potencies. Their combo finishers are 400 potency, they have a 800 potency attack(though on a 2 min cooldown), and a whopping 1080potency(cause no one is ever doing midare without kaiten) attack that can be done every 6 gcds. Sam is raw power and rdm is about speed.

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it's hard to consider everything without having more details (waiting to see if formulas change or how direct hit works), but just looking at basic potencies it seems like SAM is going to have INSANE burst, where we are just moderately high DPS all the time. Keep in mind we have "magick and mend" talent and they dont. Everything we do is 40% higher potency. so our normal combo is going to basically be 336/378 and 420 (388.5 avg) alternating. their (accounting for the 15% damage buff) 172.5 322 460 (avg 318.16) the 400 hit doesnt seem as shiny.

our burst would be (210 290 470 550 before modifiers) 2128 in 7.7 seconds (1.5 1.5 2.2 2.5). That is nothing to shake a stick at!

I am still concerned of the lack of RDM having a method to recover their MP. The only thing I have seen so far from what we have seen is the Lucid Dreaming Role Action (literally shroud of saints for all casters and healers for those who don't know, RIP WHM for their lose of it) but if you burn your MP too fast while that is on cooldown you are kinda just left with Cooldown attacks and Melee attacks until those run out since they cost about 100 TP each though that is okay with me. Of course there is plenty of time between now and release, knowing this is the Development Build they have time to adjust and tweak things. I also haven't seen the traits yet so maybe there is something for it in there.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

For the most part yes, except for Black Mage. According to the new tooltip information, Flare now only scales down to 30% less damage rather than 50%. Thunder IV and Foul have been added while the changes to Blizzard IV allow for more casts of Fire II. I would not be the least bit surprised if Black Mage became the new AoE king. Summoner is harder to judge because their AoE is now entirely focused on ability usage.

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Fire 2 theoretically wont be in blm rotation more than once if the umbral heart tool tip holds true itll be f3-f2-flare flare Foul in every aoe without convert and a pot and f3 f2 flare x 4 Foul with everyone that does.

But blm took a 20 potency nerf to fire 2 being 80 instead of 100

That 30% DR cap in skeptical of but we'll see if it holds considering a number of tool tips are mistranslated.

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Originally Posted by TorchicEX

I am still concerned of the lack of RDM having a method to recover their MP.

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I don't think it's going to be a big problem. Lucid dream is a 2 min cooldown which will come up pretty quick if you use it early. Keep in mind up till now many classes havn't had a good way to recover tp if they couldn't cross class invigorate and they did ok. Rdm also has 5 gcd's in their rotation that they're not using MP, and manafication helps those 5 skills come up faster. Brds/mchs can do refresh without losing dps so there's nothing at all stopping them other than a cooldown. And finally, sorry blms, mana shift is a thing now. So I think we'll be surprised at how well our mp manages itself.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

So I think we'll be surprised at how well our mp manages itself.

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I wish they had like a MP return from using the enchanted skills because we consume the White and Black Mana. But like every caster job has a way to maintain their own MP recovery with their own skills, not relying on others. Their 3 gcd skills (Corps-a-corps and Displacement aren't on gcd thankfully) are quick if enhanced (1.5 seconds for a total of 4.5 seconds) so you don't get much back during it unless their Base MP recovery is high but seeing that their Base MP regen outside of combat is about 864, I don't see it being too high in combat. Manafication does help us save our MP for casting in order to do it but that is like half of what a Summoner gets with Aetherflow (getting their stacks in place of Mana and they also get MP back). Without relying on optional role action skills or others to support us we don't actually have that much to work with for our own skills.

The fact they have both a potent cure as well as a raise make me so happy. I often bring my SMN into new raids just so I can help with the raising to the point that's often all I do on the final boss fights lmao. Having RDM bring that utility along is amazing, even if it makes me a bit bitter that 2/3 of the casters now have battle raises but BLM doesn't. Lore wise it won't add up, but neither does giving Apo to SMNs or gutting the lore aspects of MCH and BRD's refreshes, so there's that.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

sorry blms, mana shift is a thing now. So I think we'll be surprised at how well our mp manages itself.

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My biggest gripe with that is that you simply assume you're going to get that. Jokingly or not, other dps have their own dps and resources to manage, and imo a mana battery should be used only for healers or tanks (and no, that DRK who wants to dps more doesn't fall under that).

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

My biggest gripe with that is that you simply assume you're going to get that. Jokingly or not, other dps have their own dps and resources to manage, and imo a mana battery should be used only for healers or tanks (and no, that DRK who wants to dps more doesn't fall under that).

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I get that blms arn't going to want to do it but they do have infinite mp and while I could be wrong, I don't think it actually even affects their rotation. I'm certainly not going to be demanding blms dump all their mp to me, I was just pointing out all the ways there are now to get mp back and I didn't even mention ewer which I think is going auto aoe now. I think people are looking at mp/tp management in the 3.x mentality and failing to see how much of a change has been made to the management of resources.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I don't think it actually even affects their rotation.

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Our MP still takes time to recover even under Umbral Ice and we could've used that MP for our own DPS. Does it change our rotation structure? As far as I know, no. But it will shorten our 'filler' time. Again, if it's for heals and raises, I'll happily give it away. But I don't see a reason to give MP if it's your dps vs. mine.
And that's besides the issue of what do you do without an AST or a BLM or a BRD in the party? The class should still be able to sustain itself for a time.

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I think people are looking at mp/tp management in the 3.x mentality and failing to see how much of a change has been made to the management of resources.

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I feel like you're relying too much on specific party structure as well as the good will of other players, specifically with Mana Shift. I'd sooner say that if things are that bad, it'll be changed before long, but the expansion needs to come out first.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Our MP still takes time to recover even under Umbral Ice and we could've used that MP for our own DPS. Does it change our rotation structure? As far as I know, no. But it will shorten our 'filler' time. Again, if it's for heals and raises, I'll happily give it away. But I don't see a reason to give MP if it's your dps vs. mine.
And that's besides the issue of what do you do without an AST or a BLM or a BRD in the party? The class should still be able to sustain itself for a time.

I feel like you're relying too much on specific party structure as well as the good will of other players, specifically with Mana Shift. I'd sooner say that if things are that bad, it'll be changed before long, but the expansion needs to come out first.

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As far as the rotation from what I understand the way mp ticks in umbral ice it won't even cause the need for an extra tick. Basically other than the extra button press a blm wouldn't even know the difference that was my point.

As far as specific party structure no. It's like you guys have decided rdm mp management sucks and that's the end of it. Rdm still has lucid dream AND part of their rotation relies on not using mp. Right now in 3.x and since at least 2.0 anyone who wasn't a blm, sch, and maybe ast will eventually run out of their resource. Smns run out of mp, invigorate can't keep up with tp classes indefinitely and some don't even have it, tanks have a max tp sustain etc. Basically as it stands now you either relied on a brd/mch or ending the encounter before resources were exhausted. So for argument sake lets say lucid dream can't sustain a rdm indefinitely. So? How is that any little bit different from the way the game works now for all classes except blm and sch? The difference now, that I was pointing out is 4 classes instead of 2 have a way of increasing mp sustain. Before the two classes that had it didn't want to use it cause it meant a dps loss which it doesn't now.

edit: I should say pre-3.0 the only way to get more mp was from a brd, one class. 3.0 added mch mimicking brd and ast who had ewer but didn't want to use it, again dps loss.

I never said RDM has to go on indefinitely. BLM is about the only class who can do that, and even that's not at full power 100% of the time. But there's that, and there's running dry within your first optimal rotation, which is what people are worried about. A legitimate concern seeing how it's a new class, I think. Personally, I'm not too worried about RDM, between early patches tweaking such things if they exist and what you said about Lucid Dream and melee. I dare say RDM might just be why casters even have Lucid Dream in the first place. Most likely it's by design - BLMs have Umbral Ice; SMNs have Aetherflows; RDMs have Lucid Dream, which actually ties in with the lore as they draw from White Magic and at least in its past incarnation was originally a Conjurer skill (Shroud of the Saints). But as it's been changed into a role skill, the can't just give RDM that, especially not after taking it from WHM itself.

On a more general note, the beautiful thing is that this job fits my chara's lore, too, so it'll be all the more fun for me to play :D

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I never said RDM has to go on indefinitely. BLM is about the only class who can do that, and even that's not at full power 100% of the time. But there's that, and there's running dry within your first optimal rotation, which is what people are worried about. A legitimate concern seeing how it's a new class, I think.

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That's not even remotely a legitimate concern. No one in their right mind would believe rdm goes into testing, and somehow the testers miss the fact that rdm lasts 30 seconds and is out of mp and has to just stand there. It's obviously at a bare minimum going to have an uptime similar to smn or a melee dps. That was my point from the beginning, there's a baseline sustain the class will have, and then there are a bunch of things being added on top of all that.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

AOE was pretty heavily nerfed across all classes. Almost everything has fall off now, including bane.

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SO MUCH AOE NERF!!! I HATTTEE THIS FALL OFF CONCEPT THEY ARE DOING. #RIPBane