Are role actions a nerf?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freall7

Are there more pictures floating around with esuna on the roles tab, because based on the picture, it isn't there.

---

It's the one that says "エスナ". They changed the icon to a blue version of leeches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by freall7

Are there more pictures floating around with esuna on the roles tab, because based on the picture, it isn't there.

---

Right column, second down.
Ignore the icon, the name is right there in Katakana.

エスナ = Esuna


Bah, Ninja'd!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fawkes

It's the one that says "エスナ". They changed the icon to a blue version of leeches.

---

It makes you think what to chose and how to prepare before you get into a fight/boss battle. I mean, you'll have the second to change a skill which you wont need for a while with 2 clicks right?
And if you want to rush/speed run anyway, you'll do it with any skill available. That we have only 5 action skill slots is probably to prevent that our hotbars explode with skills.
I do admit that we got nerfed in a way, but we dont know yet how much our potencies have increased. I will surely miss my B4B and IR as bard. But cant complain before testing it out right? right???

Well, 1 month after game, there's gonna be à méta, and all classes will have the 5 same cross-skill so... *shrug*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vexander

I feel like BLMs will probably end up the real mana batteries. Umbral Ice is just a very potent mana restoring mechanic. 20% MP would be recovered in a tick of Umbral Ice III.

---

If the new BLM rotation is going to be as tight as it is now, I don't want to have to have to also monitor healers MP, and suddenly give 20% of my MP to a healer so they can rez/heal someone etc... in a split second to avoid a wipe. I thought that is what Ethers are for.

I would say it is a nerf in a way. For example, WHMs can't have Blizzard 2 anymore and it seems like they're doing something with STR for tanks. However, it's understandable because as many argue, it isn't their job to do DPS. When I say that, I mean both tanks and healers.

Ideally, I'm sure having DPS do the majority of the DPS is fine. The thing is, from a practical standpoint. I don't quite agree with their mindset mainly because there are going to be not so skilled players no matter what. If you lower their ability to carry, what's likely to happen is more people will just play with friends only.

EDIT: That reminds me. I feel Bloodbath is a nerf unless they give some sort of skill to make up for it. And I'm talking about all 3 tanks since all 3 could cross class it. But it makes sense for DPS to have it, since it scales based on the damage you do.

Why is esuna even an option, it should be a given

Overall Boons: players with on avg high lvls wont notice this, but a lot of the MUST HAVE skills will simply be available for whatever role your playing. TBD on whether they unlock choices based on highest of that role or current jobs level (i.e. If your AST is 60 and you start WHM will you have passed the level req for Swiftcast at lvl 1 or have to get CNJ/WHM to its reqd level first then let it unlock where you want). And for the most part it seems XRS are mostly focused on support/defense, so it may be safe to assume a lot of the missing offense buffs were either completely removed and built into other skills, or made class unique with side benefits passed around.

Healers:
Esuna: before WHMs start crying that it only hits them, this will hit all 3 of us, with SCHs having it slight better since now cleanse would hit before lvl 40. If this ends up final Exalted Detriment and Leeches are likely gone.
Cleric Stance: tho it may likely get a rename before release, change to this and MND being used to calc healer dmg makes it fall under a choice option rather than near req, all in all AST/SCH pretty much just gained a slot.
Protect: Honestly almost a 0 change WHM were a bit pampered by supplying this before, im honestly more worried about losing this on PLD.
Virus: still there name changed to Addled its the purple virus icon, this is just like what happened to Prot, something you grabbed without hesitation, hurts SCH and now ASTs can take it
Eye for an Eye: same as virus
Stoneskin MIA: i get the feeling this spell was completely removed and WHMs got it back with their unique class feature bonuses, they mentioned lilies being usable to get shields/barriers.
Return: theres 5 threads on the first 10 pages about this already, i think ive posted in 2 of em.
Others: likely the shroud of saints icon isnt mp regen since aetherflow hasnt been touched and with casters being given mana share smn still needs the MP give from it as well, this one is probably newish. Divine Seal if this is like its original, theres a chance it got merged with ASTs Lightspeed, so this may be mostly an SCH gift.

Tanks:
Bloodbath MIA: this may be concerning, not that it was vital, but I for one really liked it for getting more buffer room on aoe pulls and phases where im on the dps portion of OTing and could take care of myself a bit like any good dps should be doing. (It may have showed up in DPS XRS, honestly they need it more, all 3 tanks do already have other built in HP regens on their end game kits)
Second Wind MIA: same as BB
Rampart/Provoke/Convalesce: same as WHM with healers but for PLD with tanks, near votal skills that everyone needs that lived on GLD. DRK may be losing their alternative to it tho, for WARs this is a pure bonus.
Low Blow: DRK OGCD stun, WAR may be losing Brutal Swing with this also. PLD isnt losing GCD constrained Shield Bash tho so far.
Interject: mostly speculation based on the name but possibly OGCD silence for all tanks, may very well take Spirits Within's place, basically balances out PLD with WAR/DRKs probable losses on Low Blow being made XRS
AoE Voke: just a win plain and simple
Cure/Protect/Stoneskin: relisted since it does affect PLDs in some ways, tho this will likely be ignorable. Im sad to lose Prot tho personally

MDPS:
Goad: for everyone, this only really touches ninjas, but win all and all
Invigorate: same as Goad but with DRGs and honestly changes less, given that every phys DPS had it already anyways.
Raging Strikes/Blood for Blood MIA: seems like flat damage buffs are mostly being removed from XRS I get the feeling theyre trying to build more of these into the class systems. Raging Strikes may have reappeared with those charges on the song bar. Blood for Blood may be when the DRG bar turns red. Not confirmed tho, just spec. Then MNK has that chakra gen buff, MCHs heat gauge etc, i think these losses wont be too noticable.
Second Wind/Bloodbath: SW move might twinge monks a bit, and tanks/war with BB but inthink all in all this wont be too painful.

RDPS:
Raging Strikes/Blood for Blood MIA: same as before
Swiftsong: Honestly, i dont this even affects archer/bard to any noteworthy extent. Might be the softest known move so far.
MCH CC Set: while definetely more painful than the Swiftsong move, but I honestly dont see this hurting too much. Also it seems to be a trend of the new system, shared OGCD CCs.

Caster:
Mana Transfer Thing: I hope it doesnt become a maintenance thing, but this is a very nice post res or mana intensive fight support skill, and may become a new baseline for me giving BLMs comms in raids that dont go well. Also adds a nice new synergy to Umbral Ice for them aside from, well i need mp. On a side note to an issue someone noted about mana battery purposes, BLM rotation was made vastly easier so that wont be a problem, it stays up as long as you can maintain AF/UI so really unless theres an invuln phase this should never go down during a fight if your at least doing the bare min rotation.
Hawk Eye MIA: Acc removed, so this not being needed is simply a buff to your XRS space.
Quelling Shots MIA: they made a replacement, so this is nixxed also.
Swiftcast: same as a lot of skills in XRS really only minirly affects the original source class/job
Raging Strikes MIA: it seems like flat damage buffs are mostly being removed from XRS
Physick MIA: personally unhappy I might not have an emergency heal for BLM/RDM, but with the accessory changes, being able to use it to compensate for crappy healers is likely pretty low now. Still personally sad about it.
Surecast: same category as Swiftsong, dud you even really use it on BLM?

Edit placeholder, going back and checking info... Damn doing this via tablet...
Ill try to comment more on what people bring up later, but aside from this some general trends of the updates...
Bland DMG booster type buffs seem to be getting removed/reworked elsewhere into kits, or made eadier to ignore maintenance of with proper play, enochian/huton are good examples of this.
Damage being removed from CC OGCDs, honestly this is just a good move for game health and encounter variety, having to expect people to blow these for a small DPS boost basically removed CC from the game, hopefully this will bring it back, I approve at least.
XRS system seems to be super focused on reqd, support, and qol skills. Reqd like Protect/Esuna/Provoke/Conva. Support like Virus/E4E/Mana Transfer thingy/Goad etc. QOL things like AoE voke/OGCD CDs/personal power/health/enmity maintenance tools.
All in all it seems like the changes should be pretty good for us in the long run once the ONFG YOUR KILLING MY JOB dies down a bit and people get their hands on time with it. And a lot of those dmg buff/dmg spells being out of the list should relayively make the space up for the jobs that donated more to the system than they took out WHM/PLD/DRG/MNK lookin at you here mostly.

Rescue will be great for those times that the person with the orange / purple stack marker runs away from everyone.

I think these changes allow for more party comps. Now you don't HAVE to have a ninja (goad+enmity move) now you don't HAVE to have brd for mp
Ect ect

Having all of them would also be OP

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Derio

Why is esuna even an option, it should be a given

---

because not every fight needs it, i just did all my EX Primals on WT this week and didn't see a need to use it one time.

I don't see it so much as a nerf, it allows them to possibly create powerful role based skills later on, whether it's these or new ones because they know we can't have all of them. Still....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DatPotato

Well, 1 month after game, there's gonna be à méta, and all classes will have the 5 same cross-skill so... *shrug*

---

This, if it's one thing most people are good at it's telling others exactly what should be the norm. We will have a set skill list and yes you will have some people who don't go by it, and some who do. Just like now you have some who do their rotations and some who don't. We will have a staple, whether it's overall or within certain content. The second the first Mr. Happy video comes out and says "We needed both Healers and Casters to have Erase and Esuna" the world will go "You need it..100%..no other way man..no other way."

I think healer is just the easiest one to pick on. We still don't know a lot of things, how the existing skills are adjusted. This could make changes in how we see these role based skills.

I can understand the concerns, not having something you've been so use to for so long is hard to see it go. Then again, if things are that bad they will change it. They seem to have an idea and a mindset to how this will work out, we need to let it play out. I'll admit I'm on the fence about Esuna. I'm so comfy having it, to think it might not be there because I forgot isn't a great feeling.

On the other hand I wonder how often am I going to use Break...so I feel it will always be there.

One thing I'm noticing in all of these threads, people are talking about certain actions being gone that weren't mentioned in the live letter. Are we sure these are gone or are we speculating they're gone because we don't see them on Yoshi-P's Hotbar?

I don't believe it is a nerf so much as actively taking skills in with you that you know you'll need. If a dungeon has nothing that will inflict statuses that can be removed, there's no reason for esuna to take up space on your hotbar. If you know a boss doesn't physically attack much, there's no reason to bring eye for an eye. I see this an an incentive to actually pre-plan and will help set the difference between an active healer than healers that just heal or just DPS, but don't remove effects. At lower levels, scholars and some other active healers already protect, then swap it out for cleric stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I don't believe it is a nerf so much as actively taking skills in with you that you know you'll need. If a dungeon has nothing that will inflict statuses that can be removed, there's no reason for esuna to take up space on your hotbar. If you know a boss doesn't physically attack much, there's no reason to bring eye for an eye. I see this an an incentive to actually pre-plan and will help set the difference between an active healer than healers that just heal or just DPS, but don't remove effects. At lower levels, scholars and some other active healers already protect, then swap it out for cleric stance.

---

Yep, honestly this new system will probably be where the core group finds ways to get back some of the lost power gap by being able to delegate around certain reqs with superior coordination abilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Losing Aero and Blizzard 2 will be a mild DPS nerf for SCH as things stand. No stoneskin could be considered a nerf for AST in particular (I'll certainly miss it).

I suspect it's very quickly going to turn into a cookie cutter situation. I can see myself almost guaranteed to just roll with Prot/Lucid/DS/Esuna/E4E or Virus and maybe switching esuna out for cleric where it's relevant if I actually remember to (and then promptly getting someone killed because I forgot to switch back and couldn't dispel doom ;) )

---

Losing Blizzard 2?! That's a huge pvp nerf to schs that they didn't need! (they are already the weakest healer in pvp) They will have no CCs that work in pvp now D: And to all healers in pvp in general! I use it a lot on my astro too! Whms in pvp would be even better than the other healers in pvp, as whm will still be able to bind, as well as sleep, and stun. Astro will only have stun, and sch will have nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Losing Blizzard 2?! That's a huge pvp nerf to schs that they didn't need! (they are already the weakest healer in pvp) They will have no CCs that work in pvp now D: And to all healers in pvp in general! I use it a lot on my astro too!

---

I could be misremembering, but if that isn't the case, I believe they said that PvP and PvE will be entirely different action sets in Stormblood.

I mean when they said cross role I thought they meant that like for like not crossing dps skills with tank skills, like warrior and no internal release , or pali not having stone skin, but they took thing a step further and took actual useful skills from jobs for no reason other than they cool this is just not cool to me

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bswpayton

I mean when they said cross role I thought they meant that like for like not crossing dps skills with tank skills, like warrior and no internal release , or pali not having stone skin, but they took thing a step further and took actual useful skills from jobs for no reason other than they cool this is just not cool to me

---

I don't believe we have seen evidence of them taking things away. IE just because Esuna is a cross-role option doesn't inherantly mean that WHM do not get it innately. Maybe they do, maybe they don't... but I don't think we know for sure either way yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

Losing Blizzard 2?! That's a huge pvp nerf to schs that they didn't need!

---

you need to check the entire PvP portion of the Live Letter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bswpayton

but they took thing a step further and took actual useful skills from jobs for no reason other than they cool this is just not cool to me

---

all the things they took are things that every one of the jobs in that role should be able to do. like Provoke, Goad, Esuna, that's a very good reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SendohJin

you need to check the entire PvP portion of the Live Letter.

all the things they took are things that every one of the jobs in that role should be able to do. like Provoke, Goad, Esuna, that's a very good reason.

---

Like he said here, the pvp skill set will be vastly different from what we know, and this new system will have like no interaction with it. From what it seems like, most classes will keep base rotations and vital skills amounting to 9, 2 chosen skills, and 2 traits. For about 13 skills during pvp.

Healers will most like have basic heal, aoe heal, unique heal, and a badic dmg skill of sorts.

So SCH your lookin at Physick, Succor, Adloq, Boil being your basic kit, if all 9 are from current usable skills, expect your 3 dots, and aetherflow. Im assuming faerie will either be there or compensated like the current faerie loss skill.

For the class job skill loss point. This mostly FEELS like a nerf to the source jobs, and there are a select few that were heavy donors where it will be felt more, WHM/PLD/DRG/MNK are in this category. But for the most part they simply removed vital and highly situational CC/Support abilities that everyone can need access to and moved them here, and in some cases everyone lost for the same like Esuna, most likely Leeches and Exalted Detriment are gone as well. Now across the board it seems simple +dmg OGCD Buffs have been removed and put into more interesting mechanics or worked into other abilities. But from how it seems everyone lost parts of their kit thatll have to be regained, and enough of the often took XCs are gone to use those slots on heavy donor jobs to regain previously natural vital skills. I.E. Paladin no longer has access to Protect, Stoneskin, Cure, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke, and Foresight in their XCS but the new XRS have their previously native Rampart, Provoke, Conva, Awareness. Before PLD could pretty much function just fine without any XCS while WAR/DRK were pretty much crippled without a lvl 22-34 GLD. So its mostly not as bad as the current freak out is making it seem, and it will itch a bit this june for those who played the heavy donors, but likely by july most of us will barely even notice the problems anymore. Without a doubt, we are gaining a substantially better toolkit to choose out of than the previous system, and for new players and characters a vastly easier to obtain one. So please give it some time and try to loom at the whole picture of whats moving in and out of places with the new system before dropping OMFG MY JOB IS REKD!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SendohJin

you need to check the entire PvP portion of the Live Letter.



all the things they took are things that every one of the jobs in that role should be able to do. like Provoke, Goad, Esuna, that's a very good reason.

---

I mean somethings where up for choice for instance on warrior in dungeons I prefer to use flash and overpower , it works fine but angling is alot work than a cone aoe its gone, bloodbath was a thing is gone, shield swipe on pali gone, re-phrasal on drk cross role now, mercy stroke was cross class its gone now, blood bath for pali is gone and drk, the new things for tanks none of them are self heals, whm basicly has to rebuy their same skills they already had again, these changes didnt benefit anyone but new players coming in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bswpayton

shield swipe on pali gone

---

says who?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bswpayton

mercy stroke was cross class its gone now, blood bath for pali is gone and drk

---

good? that makes the jobs more distinct from each other, both of those jobs don't need either of those.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyKairi

I'm looking forward to using the rescue ability. I've wanted this sort of ability for a long long time. So many times I could've saved people from titan's landslides or Sophia's scale tips had I had it. I just hope people won't ruin it for those of us who will actually use it as intended.

---

Exactly, in other games that have a similar skill, I found it very useful in some situations and saved quite a few fights from wipes because the tank or dps had lagged out and not moved to a protected location mechanic... Can even be used as a sort of quasi training tool.
It can only be used in group, to group members, so cant be trolled with out in the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bswpayton

I mean somethings where up for choice for instance on warrior in dungeons I prefer to use flash and overpower , it works fine but angling is alot work than a cone aoe its gone, bloodbath was a thing is gone, shield swipe on pali gone, re-phrasal on drk cross role now, mercy stroke was cross class its gone now, blood bath for pali is gone and drk, the new things for tanks none of them are self heals, whm basicly has to rebuy their same skills they already had again, these changes didnt benefit anyone but new players coming in.

---

SCH and SMN are losing Virus and Eye For An Eye
WHM is losing Esuna, Protect, Cleric Stance
BLM is losing Swiftcast, Surecast, and Apocastasis
BRD is losing Swiftsong and Quelling Strikes
WAR is losing Bloodbath
MNK is losing Second Wind
DRG is losing Low Kick and Invigorate
NIN is losing Goad
PLD is losing Provoke, Convalesence, Rampart, Awareness
DRK is losing Low Blow and Reprisal
MCH is losing all 3 of its OGCD CCs

Thats everything I can remember that is confirmed to be moved to XRS

Then theres some other probabilities based what is there.
AST is likely losing Exalted Detriment
SCH is likely losing Leeches
WAR is likely losing Brutal Swing and Storm's Path (10% DMG Reduc one not the Slash never remember which is Eye which is Path just that Slash = Pink, -DMG = Teal)
PLD is likely losing Spirits Within

And skills that were notably missing that may be gone or worked into new job mechanics or other skills.
MNK missing given Inner Focus and Mantra
WAR missing given Mercy Stroke
WHM missing given Stoneskin
DRG missing given Blood for Blood
BRD missing given Hawk Eye and Raging Strikes

Then the trend of XCs that are dmg or simple core skills are gone from the cross system but likely still nearly unchanged on the core class like
WHM given Cure 1
ACN/SCH/SMN given Physick and Bio 1
BLM given Blizzard 2
WAR/PLD given Step 2 Enmity Generators

Take a bit and look at the WHOLE picture we have so far, some are easy to explain like BRD Hawkeye with accuracy being gone its just a 15% dex buff, BLM/SMN are losing nothing here. Cleric Stances primary funtion of swapping MND with INT is now detrimental and thus removed given that MND affects healer dmg. Stoneskin may be WHM unique again as part of the lilies mechanic and less of a boring pre fight start-up or rez sickness health buffer.

And I'm sure as more details come out you gunna notice a lot of other things having been moved around. So take a sec breathe, things are likely far less ominous than it seems when your nose is touching the screen just below you main jobs change notes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SendohJin

good? that makes the jobs more distinct from each other, both of those jobs don't need either of those.

---

I don't agree. I used it on MNK. It had decent potency and was an extra oGCD skill to use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bswpayton

I mean somethings where up for choice for instance on warrior in dungeons I prefer to use flash and overpower

---

Wait a second. Wait just a dang second. I totally forgot about Flash. I've taken it for granted that I've just had it. I mean, WAR doesn't necessarily need it, but it was really good for being omni-directional It's especially useful when extra adds spawn for whatever reason. It was also useful when I ran low on TP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SendohJin

all the things they took are things that every one of the jobs in that role should be able to do. like Provoke, Goad, Esuna, that's a very good reason.

---

The problem I see with that is those "skills every role should have" are non-choices. You take them, no ifs ands or buts about it. So, while I can't speak for any other healer, I personally feel compelled to always take Swiftcast for instant res, Protect to buff my groups, Esuna to remove any debuffs, Lucid Dream for mp management, and if that unknown skill using that recolored Divine Seal icon turns out to be Divine Seal, I'm gonna feel compelled to take that too leaving me with no choices at all for alternatives.

Now in a static where you and your co-healer can coordinate, sure you're going to have more wiggle room, but I'm not the type of person who likes to constantly swap skills. I didn't like it with WoW's talents and that hasn't changed. I pick the skills I feel I need for all the content I engage in and rarely if ever change them. Unfortunately its looking like all my "choices" have been made for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YitharV2

I don't agree. I used it on MNK. It had decent potency and was an extra oGCD skill to use.

---

Considering the amount of change that the jobs are going through, you have the wrong mentality towards this. You are basically going to be relearning your job, so it's absence isnt all that relvant. If they took it out mid heavensward I would agree, but you are getting a new toolkit with new cool stuff to use.

Personally I think this whole change is going to backfire hilariously.

I mean, think about it: SE has stated they want to (a) reduce button bloat, and (b) make the system more accessible / usable for casual players. Laudable goals, both, assuming they can be effectively achieved. But, it is arguable the nature of the role-based system might worsen both. Consider:

1.) Role-based skills are broad enough that it appears frequent swapping between skill combinations is encouraged. This means that users must integrate most or all of the Role-based skills onto their hotbars, rather than just the five I'd use now, all of which are relatively static.

2.) Role-based skills being flexible and guaranteed means the floodgates will be opened for players being told how to play. Think that situation is bad now? Wait until tanks start bitching at healers for not having Esuna selected. Wait until people wipe because the tank forgot to respec from a damage-oriented setup they were using for solo'ing. This isn't going to lead to a friendlier environment for casual or forgetful players.

Don't get me wrong, I think the role-based skill system is potentially a good idea - but it doesn't fix the problem. They've essentially removed the need to level other jobs, but shifted even MORE crucial abilities into optional skills. Healers in 3.x need to have Swiftcast, but now they need to make damned sure they've selected Esuna, too - and heaven help them if they don't. This would have worked a hell of a lot better if the role-based skills were optional things that gave non-crucial, but nonetheless useful, abilities. They should have behaved like Merit Point abilities in FFXI. Hell, they could have even allowed for the selection of a role-based Trait or two, something powerful, so people could really customize how their class felt. Instead, they've worsened almost all the problems of the cross-class system; the only thing they fixed (and it's debatable if this is a good thing or not) is the fact that players no longer have to level separate jobs they might not be interested in.

Truly a missed opportunity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

-snip-

---

According to Yoshi-P said, monk rotation hasn't changed that much. And someone said in the Reddit Discord that monk rotation was fine they just needed utility. Of course gameplay will change slightly (especially with The Forbidden Chakra) and my opener will change, but I actually don't think Monk will be that much relearning.

Besides its potency, it was a decent heal as well while soloing. Bloodbath's addition doesn't change anything because Monks already had Bloodbath as a cross class skill. My point is they took away something useful.

The main problem with the cross role system is they have to put something in the bucket of tank healer or dps, but not all the abilities are clear cut as that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vhailor

Snip.

---

I believe your concerns are fairly valid, but I also think that having a given answer will assuage many of yours, mine, and others concerns. Will the CD/OGCD Start/30s Penalty be going away? Will it simply be, "Must be out of combat", or will they be swappable on the fly?

I believe its like the "Must be out of combat" will be in place. With how its designed the current XC changing rulest would be crippling to the new XRS ability changes. And on the fly just defeats the purpose.

Most jobs will likely have a general-purpose set up before the 8man hits in july. Like healers will probably be Prot, Esuna, Swift, E4E, Virus. And likely in that order. And mostly boil down to messing with all but swiftcast depending on the situation.

Since I usually heal as a pair with my friend, im pretty sure outside of 4 mans ill probably never have prot on my bars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vhailor

snip

---

You know, the more I think about it, the more this whole limitation thing makes absolutely no sense. Forced to make choices? Who are they kidding-- you can literally change it out at any time with no penalty-- they removed the cooldown a while ago. That's the complete opposite of enforcing a choice. In fact, because there is no penalty for switching, the case is even stronger for not having any limitations on how many you can put on your hotbar in the first place there IS no real choice to be made, so you might as well just let us use them all at will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

You know, the more I think about it, the more this whole limitation thing makes absolutely no sense. Forced to make choices? Who are they kidding-- you can literally change it out at any time with no penalty-- they removed the cooldown a while ago. That's the complete opposite of enforcing a choice. In fact, because there is no penalty for switching, the case is even stronger for not having any limitations on how many you can put on your hotbar in the first place there IS no real choice to be made, so you might as well just let us use them all at will.

---

The cooldown isn't complete removed. I know that when I went into a solo dungeon to test the swapping whilst double-checking the 'current state of things' before posting, it triggered a 30s penalty on all of my abilities upon making modifications. In safe areas like cities, you can change on the fly, but not elsewhere.

It's possible they'll remove this penalty for 4.0, but either way, there are unanswered questions and odd behaviour. If the penalty remains, they've diminished what appears to be a goal of the system. If the penalty is removed, their decision to limit how many abilities can be selected is really going to open it up for players micro-managing each other.

Either way, I maintain that the central problem with the cross-class system is that certain abilities came to be viewed as 'essential' because of how powerful / useful they were. Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, Swiftcast, Provoke, etc. They appear to have worsened this situation with the role-based system. I don't care what sort of shiny bow they've tied around it; if that fundamental problem still exists, or is worsened, then the system will still be the source of much unnecessary frustration. They needed to re-cast these elective abilities as optional, roughly-equivalent bonuses that allowed people to customize how their character played and felt. That is the only path I can see that would allow for customization without a huge amount of grief.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vhailor

Hell, they could have even allowed for the selection of a role-based Trait or two, something powerful, so people could really customize how their class felt.

---

Yeah, they could've made something like, every healer has their normal esuna but could also pick esuna from this list to get an AoE esuna or esuna that clears multiple dots. Or given every healer protect by default and made choosing protect give it a slight boost or made it also cast stoneskin 2 when out of combat. Maybe people would still gravitate towards a specific setup, but at least you'd have some wiggle room to pick what you wanted because you wouldn't completely lose an essential skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reiryuu

You know, the more I think about it, the more this whole limitation thing makes absolutely no sense. Forced to make choices? Who are .
they kidding-- you can literally change it out at any time with no penalty-- they removed the cooldown a while ago. That's the complete opposite of enforcing a choice. In fact, because there is no penalty for switching, the case is even stronger for not having any limitations on how many you can put on your hotbar in the first place there IS no real choice to be made, so you might as well just let us use them all at will.

---

There is still a CD now, if you swap CC abilities. If it's a oGCD I'm not sure, bit a GCD sets all GCDs on 30s CD in a dungeon.

Also you're only talking about dungeons, you can't switch in a fight nor in trials/raids ofc.

Who needs E4E in Sophia with only her tankbuster with a chance to proc, because everything other is magical (ok.. add phase...)? On the other hand I really would slot that rescue skill in a Sophia Ex kill group. ;)

Maybe WHMs are even more strong in raw healing now than AST/SCH that this Divine Seal skill is more likely to be taken in AST/SCH comps.
Maybe WHM has still it's own emnity/mp management, like SCH with Aetherflow too, and the SoS role-based skill is more like an option for people struggling to use their job-inherent tools right or do things like solo-healing.
Maybe Protect isn't a 30 min buff with op damage reduction, but more like a skill you can use for additional temporary mitigation and fights are designed that a mandatory 100% uptime of x% damage reduction you apply just before the pull is a thing of the past.
Maybe...

You get the point, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neophyte

Maybe WHMs are even more strong in raw healing now than AST/SCH that this Divine Seal skill is more likely to be taken in AST/SCH comps.
Maybe WHM has still it's own emnity/mp management, like SCH with Aetherflow too, and the SoS role-based skill is more like an option for people struggling to use their job-inherent tools right or do things like solo-healing.
Maybe...

you get the point right?

---

It's great to be optimistic. Maybe everything will be totally cool and I'll look dumb for ever making this thread. That would be rad, I hope it happens. I like this game and I want it to continue to be good. :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vhailor

Either way, I maintain that the central problem with the cross-class system is that certain abilities came to be viewed as 'essential' because of how powerful / useful they were. Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, Swiftcast, Provoke, etc. They appear to have worsened this situation with the role-based system. I don't care what sort of shiny bow they've tied around it; if that fundamental problem still exists, or is worsened, then the system will still be the source of much unnecessary frustration. They needed to re-cast these elective abilities as optional, roughly-equivalent bonuses that allowed people to customize how their character played and felt. That is the only path I can see that would allow for customization without a huge amount of grief.

---

Yeah... this honestly feels A LOT like the problem with cross class skills. I think they think that they're fixing the system and giving us more choice, but I'm not quite so sure about that. The only thing I feel it really fixed was needing to level another class.

I wonder what the forums will look like if we start seeing healers in dungeons with these as their shared role actions:

Cleric Stance
Break
Rescue
Surecast
Eye for an Eye

"Healer please cast protect", "Sorry, I don't have Protect"
"Healer please remove this debuff", "Sorry, I don't have Esuna"
"Healer, why is it taking so long to res people?", "Sorry, I don't have Swiftcast"
"Healer why aren't you healing?", "My mp ran out and I don't have Lucid Dream"
"So what CAN you do healer?, "Oh I can give myself a 5% damage buff for 15 seconds, zap a mob and slow it, yank the BLM out of his leylines for the lawls, make myself immune to knockbacks and pulls, and give you a defensive buff with a short duration and long cooldown! :D"

I know this little fiction is ridiculous and hardly likely to ever happen unless someone is trying to troll groups, but the fact that it's even possible is frightening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fawkes

It's great to be optimistic. Maybe everything will be totally cool and I'll look dumb for ever making this thread. That would be rad, I hope it happens. I like this game and I want it to continue to be good. :cool:

---

I thinks it's pretty reasonable to expect Healers to have a job-specific tool to manage mp/emnity (because SCH has still Aetherflow+Energy Drain... they can't be taken without taking them from SMN, too, and that did not happen) and a WHM without emnity reduction is pretty much a dead man in serious fights.

So it's way more reasonable to expect 'This rolebased mp regen might just be an optional bonus for those who need it.' than expecting 'Omg, without that skill I will always run dry on MP, what is this """"choices"""?!?!'

SCH might still be able to consume their fairy or still have the fairy skill with healing+ and Rouse. He didn't have Divine Seal before and maybe he don't necessarily need it on top of this three job-specific tools to buff his outgoing healing now.
I don't see that this would be mandatory except maybe in solo-heal fights or savage progression.
So it's also pretty reasonable to expect job-built in healing+ buffs or bigger healing right from the get-go on WHM and AST as well on top of the optional healing buff.

SCH will most likely not be the only healer with job-built in abilities as counterparts to those skills, lol. But that's how people sound here.

Looks like a bad idea to me. Some things seem needed but you can just ignore those things? Well, hope you don't get players that refuse to spec swifcast. It seems a fake choice. I just think you should level a character and get all skills needed instead of this shared nonsense.