Friction between casuals and raiders - One Lala's weird trick, GMs hate her!

The only real snag I see with it isn't the player element so much as the fact that this would require far more testing than I'm convinced devs actually do for what content we already have.

On the other hand though, I suspect the workaround would be the S3 treatment of setting particular numbers and setting ranks based off of numbers revolving around various factors such as speed of completion or number of deaths, and much like how you could calculate the time to down particular S3 dummies or the percentage leftover when the timer runs out to determine a rough estimate of how much dps you're doing, you could use the numbers gained from those factors to generate a "rank".

Two questions regarding this though: 1) would devs actually want to dedicate the assets necessary for a system like given that likely none of it would involve any amount of actual player testing, and 2) what would be deemed acceptable testing values (i.e. number of runs, number of groups testing) to determine the parameters for each rank of each dungeon?

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

This sentence screams bias against "raiders". If I'm a lower skilled player, who am I being patient or understanding with? Other lower skilled players? Ok fair enough - but this sentence does absolutely nothing to solve friction between player segments.

Here's my POV: When I queue up for content I don't expect people to play at my level, I do however expect every single player to try their best. Anything less than trying your best (in a team environment) is disrespectful to others.

You're asking me to "patient" & "understanding" with lower skilled players and I already am. In fact, most of us raiders really are. The problem is that a large portion of the people we get grouped with (if we don't filter you) have no respect for our time or effort.

There's a reason why in EVERY other format this behavior is very negatively viewed. At Work, in school/uni, sports, etc.

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I don't think it's biased. 100% serious play isn't any more correct than a casual run through a dungeon. Ideally if you have a specific goal you should try to communicate with your group when all of you spawn in. As long as no one is actively trying to sabotage the run, no one is really doing anything wrong. This applies outside of the game too. In work or school, people not giving their best can be a hindrance, but in a recreation like sports? That's a really wide category which can range from being as serious as a job to completely laid back. Duty Finder is akin to going to the park and trying to setup a game with random people. It's not going to be the World Cup. You can't necessarily expect everyone to be on the same page.

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Why are you queueing up for battle content if you want to relax? I'll never understand this methodology.

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You could say that the whole point of a video game is to relax.

Anyway, as far as the idea presented in this thread goes, I'd opt out. I don't really care about running through content as fast as possible and it's fun to be helpful where you can. I'm fine with the current matchmaking.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

I don't think it's biased. 100% serious play isn't any more correct than a casual run through a dungeon.

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Agreed, the door swings both ways on this one. Ideally people should really be happy to find a middle ground rather than 'my way or the highway'.

Hi Sebazy!

I feel your suggestion is a good start to easing some of the drama between the two groups. Casuals and hard core players tend to not get along.

That's not saying that there are no patient committed players nor is it saying every casual isn't open to improving their gameplay. Like most things in life, each individual is on a spectrum.

Interestingly, it is poor players who believe they are far better than they are who cause the most unpleasant incidents. It's just human nature to believe their own way is the best way, even when they don't know what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Agreed, the door swings both ways on this one. Ideally people should really be happy to find a middle ground rather than 'my way or the highway'.

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I think the issue is there often isn't much middle ground to be had. You're only as strong as your weakest link. In Expert dungeons I would say if you have a competent tank and healer the rest can kind of fall into place, I can't think of a pull in any of the current experts where enemies need to die particularly fast other than perhaps the full pull after the second boss of Hell's Lid and even that can be powered through.

I know personally on the off chance I do expert on a DPS though there are times that the tank will pull small despite me knowing the dps (at least mine) is strong and it's certainly annoying. At the same time I have seen tanks pull big once and die to a healer who isn't paying attention or doesn't know what they're doing. Either way if the tank and the healer aren't capable of and willing to try full pulls the dps are just kind of stuck with it. I wouldn't call that middle ground.

I suppose that's the thing that this sort of system would help alleviate the most. It would be nice particularly as a healer - knowing I have a higher chance of getting solid dps who understand their AoE would be great.

I would add that I would want this only for Expert roulette - I enjoy helping new people through other content, Expert just doesn't need help though. There are no real dangers to an ill-prepared party other than going a bit slower. If something like this were applied to other roulettes like Trial or Normal Raid I think it would be catastrophic to the lowest tier of performers. I know that isn't the OP's suggestion, just adding that I would be personally opposed to this in other content.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

I don't think it's biased. 100% serious play isn't any more correct than a casual run through a dungeon. As long as no one is actively trying to sabotage the run, no one is really doing anything wrong. This applies outside of the game too. In work or school, people not giving their best can be a hindrance, but in a recreation like sports? That's a really wide category which can range from being as serious as a job to completely laid back. Duty Finder is akin to going to the park and trying to setup a game with random people. It's not going to be the World Cup. You can't necessarily expect everyone to be on the same page.

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I disagree. I believe that in team play (be it, work, gaming, sports, anything) if you PURPOSELY set out to not do your best you are being disrespectful to those people counting on you. Obviously, in recreational gaming the stakes are stupidly low, but that doesn't remove the premise. If you join that pick up game with the intent of "relaxing" or "half-assing" it, you're toxic as far as I am concerned.

I treat others how I would want to be treated, and that is by performing the best I can. If I want to slack off (and trust me at times I do), I stick to solo content or play some JRPGs on the couch (like my current xenogears playthrough) because I wouldn't want to burden others with my lack of energy/drive, etc.

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You could say that the whole point of a video game is to relax.

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I've actually had this discussion many times before. I do not play video games to relax. I play videos games because they engage me. I have a dry job where I do big data analysis, meetings all freaking day, and other boring stuff, that's where I relax.

You and I are a perfect example of this friction existing and being difficult to fix.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

If you join that pick up game with the intent of "relaxing" or "half-assing" it, you're toxic as far as I am concerned.

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No, it's definitely the person who thinks that simply by virtue of existing somewhere that they get to dictate to everyone else how to act that is the toxic element.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I disagree. I believe that in team play (be it, work, gaming, sports, anything) if you PURPOSELY set out to not do your best you are being disrespectful to those people counting on you. Obviously, in recreational gaming the stakes are stupidly low, but that doesn't remove the premise. If you join that pick up game with the intent of "relaxing" or "half-assing" it, you're toxic as far as I am concerned.

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It's not the stakes that matter as much as the group consensus. Slacking at work is wrong because it involves accepting a job offer to do a specific task. If you don't do that task, then you are violating your work contract and your employer has the right to remove you because you've effectively lied. Your job contract is a promise that you will do X, and in return you get payed. The closest that we have to this in game is the ToS/kick options which recognize differences in playstyle. They only go after cheating and abuse.

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I treat others how I would want to be treated, and that is by performing the best I can. If I want to slack off (and trust me at times I do), I stick to solo content or play some JRPGs on the couch (like my current xenogears playthrough) because I wouldn't want to burden others with my lack of energy/drive, etc.

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I respect this, but I've always felt that this line of thinking has a flaw. It assumes that everyone wants the same thing. I like to treat people how they want to be treated, which may differ from how I want to be treated. Making temporary concessions for the well being of the group can often be beneficial. This goes for everyone of course, so if the rest of the group does not want to make any concessions to you that's a strike against them, but the key is for everyone to be at least a little flexible.

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I've actually had this discussion many times before. I do not play video games to relax. I play videos games because they engage me. I have a dry job where I do big data analysis, meetings all freaking day, and other boring stuff, that's where I relax.

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That's completely fine but other people may do the opposite. In a multiplayer game you're going to run into them sooner or later.

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You and I are a perfect example of this friction existing and being difficult to fix.

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For what it's worth I don't really find much friction in the game. I've cleared every level of content short of UwU, but I just don't mind slogs through dungeons (unless someone is being purposefully disruptive). I very often don't know the people on the other side of my screen and I don't want to make assumptions. If there is a problem I'll try to communicate and compromise. I don't think a really rigid stance works in something like duty finder. That's more the realm of party finder.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

No, it's definitely the person who thinks that simply by virtue of existing somewhere that they get to dictate to everyone else how to act that is the toxic element.

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So to be clear - It's toxic to expect people to put forth effort.

Good to know. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

It's not the stakes that matter as much as the group consensus. Slacking at work is wrong because it involves accepting a job offer to do a specific task. If you don't do that task, then you are violating your work contract and your employer has the right to remove you because you've effectively lied. Your job contract is a promise that you will do X, and in return you get payed. The closest that we have to this in game is the ToS/kick options which recognize differences in playstyle. They only go after cheating and abuse.

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Your example isn't super relevant to actual team work. I'm not sure what your profession is or what extent you've done project work in a professional settings, but there are ALWAYS people who do less work than others. They're not breaching a contract and getting fired for it though. Depending on the egregiousness of the offense, I'll either:

a) Quietly take note, and ensure they're no longer on my project teams in the future

b) Discuss issues regarding lack of participation/contribution

c) Escalate as necessary to managers, etc.

If you think about gaming, this almost mirrors the situation perfectly. You either ignore them and move on, confront them, or escalate (report). Like I said, gaming stakes are a lot lower, but the premise is still there. You really should be trying your best if you're in a party.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

In my eyes this is beautiful on multiple levels:

Those that simply want to speed run the dungeon as fast as they can will have a better chance of getting a group with like minded people, less frustration and salt, faster runs, good times.

Those that simply want to take it easy, plod though the dungeon and are either too timid, simply aren't bothered or just don't have a good enough grasp of the game yet will also get put with other people who are much more likely to go at a slower steadier pace and be content doing so.

This would also provide an incentive (Something this game desperately needs) for someone seeking quicker expert roulettes to actually work on their own personal standard of play, the better they do, the more likely they are to get stronger party members and thus a nice double dip on the likelihood of a quick clear.

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And so how would it factor in someone wanting to speed run one day, and just chill on another? Also your last point is kind nullified by this:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I will stress right now that this suggestion revolves around this number being completely hidden from the player, you won't be able to see your own rank, nor will you be able to see anyone else's.

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The "friction" is completely made up by people who understand nothing about anything, and just want to complain about every minor inconvenience.

Because an algorithm is hidden it doesnt mean people cant slowly figure out how it works and what it prefers so after a while people will start playing wrong in order to trick the algorithm into thinking they are doing good like that.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Because an algorithm is hidden it doesnt mean people cant slowly figure out how it works and what it prefers so after a while people will start playing wrong in order to trick the algorithm into thinking they are doing good like that.

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Originally Posted by TTiscancer

The "friction" is completely made up by people who understand nothing about anything, and just want to complain about every minor inconvenience.

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Please note that this is a 4 year old thread from a time when there was a much bigger divide over how Expert dungeons should be run. As I noted in a similar thread that popped up recently, it's just not the same issue that it used to be. That this wouldn't be worth the work now as it'd be unlikely to change a thing.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Please note that this is a 4 year old thread from a time when there was a much bigger divide over how Expert dungeons should be run.

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Oh damn didnt notice.

Out of curiosity what was the issue with expert dungeons at the time?

Cause atm they are extremely linear and with most dps classes not really having any actual utility there isnt that much you can do to change how you do them, which also makes me wonder why there's some people asking for a M+ Equivalent in ff14 when there's literally very few things you can do differently since most jobs lack heavy utility, like what? Who aoes things slightly faster lol

The dungeons themselves weren't actually that different at this stage, but the whole healers mustn't DPS and tanks must single pull sentiment was much more common place than it is now. I guess because it was more common to see a loosely gated dungeon allowing for somewhat dangerous long pulls back then.

And agreed, the current design approach just doesn't support higher difficulty dungeons at all really outside of just making things actually hit back more. Dropping the task of CC on healers would be a neat distraction from the current meta of mashing one of two buttons but I can't see them putting in the effort.

Seems like a weird suggestion. I mean, it might work. But the work to get this running compared to the benefits - if there would be any substantial ones - I don't see the need to implement it. I am convinced that overall, dungeons are primarily designed for players to progress with the story and to have chill activities with their friends. They are never hard, not even when it is about pulling stuff from wall to wall.
So while I do appreciate the thought behind it, actually, I am flat out against it. People mentioned a lot of reasons why this might not work. What we have now, does work very well indeed.

So it is with DPS parsers. Years went by without us being the worse for it. Not having something did for sure not have a bad influence. Might FF turn into a toxic MMORPG with parsers alone? I don't think so. But the more we get little pieces thrown in that are made to please elitist players, the likelier for this to happen. Thus me wanting those systems to stay how they are.

All tanks have to do is cast threat and all healers have to do is cast heal. It really is that simple for these two roles.