[QOL IDEA] Multijob Queue

original version of this game had people being able to que as - lancer / dragoon = tank, arcanist = healer. it was VERY annoying because those classes cannot do ether at all very well. Also you shouldn't just expect EVERY game to be like the other. I for one like the game for its uniqueness in that retrospec. If it turned into WOW, RIFT or WILDSTAR I would quit in a heartbeat because what attracted me to the game would be gone. I absolutly hate it when people are like : oh it should be like this game or else, blah blah blah. If you really want that specific thing then why don't you go play those games?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

This would be a wonderful idea, but it is a programming nightmare. Having different jobs in different queues is one thing, but having different jobs in the same queue, especially in parties, increases matching complexity exponentially.

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And we're back to the point I've made several times on this thread already. This isn't some insanely innovative idea that's never been heard of before. If FFXIV's systems can't handle the complexity of this, they're sub-optimal and should be improved. The developers should be polishing their resumes if they can't achieve something here that already exists in other games, including some with smaller budgets. I mean, imagine if I was a major company's customer service manager and tried to tell my boss that I couldn't meet customer expectations because updating our process would be too complex--meanwhile, our customers see three of our competitors already doing the thing I'm saying is too complex. It wouldn't fly. I would get fired.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

And what about the next people in the queue?

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The next people in the queue are the next people in the queue, and if they match up with the people before them, great, they get in faster! If not, they have to wait--just like they have to wait right now.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Less specs, WOW is not same specs and goes into maintenance constantly. and not asking for 64bit, asking if they have the multi job queue, nor Wildstar, Rift been a while wasn't an option back then. I'll check so far but yeah not really on par with FFXIV.
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Lol. Both WildStar and Rift are just as or more demanding than FFXIV. WildStar especially - don't let the cartoony art style fool you. But graphics have NOTHING to do with queueing systems anyway.

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Originally Posted by Synrin

This would also make it easier if someone leaves. Hey guys, I can just switch to tank and we carry on, instead of having to reque and wait for an eternity. There is albeit more DPS waiting to join any duty anyhow.

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That's a bad idea

Don't like how a new tank can't hold enmity in aurum vale? Let's kick him and I just switch to tank.
Yoshida thinks about things like this, he knows he can't trust the community.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Lol. Both WildStar and Rift are just as or more demanding than FFXIV. WildStar especially - don't let the cartoony art style fool you. But graphics have NOTHING to do with queueing systems anyway.

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I've used those and FFXIV for me uses more resources on my system than the other two. Not a matter of being a 3D cartoon style game. I'm not an amateur to programing and system requirements. Even at low setting FFXIV takes more. So apparently talking to you has no merit and obviously you don't understand some of the work in the back ground so no offense but do you even know how to measure system resources on programs? The queue system is something a bit different and more complex than just hey pick a box for priority. The way the system works is more complex in finding matches which you don't see on our side being it's done on their side which can cause problems in stability. Once again it's a nice idea, but perhaps later on they might implement it once they can stabilize all of the components on their end. Developers are always on burnout mode and , if you follow or attend fan fares, Yoshi always gets the we will bring it up but is work in progress. Sorry I rather have them implement new content then try and breaking how stable the game is. Besides queue wait times aren't that bad in a decent server. If people are impatient that's another story. Can't cure peoples moods. If anything PvP queue's could use some work and is more as a possibility for that part of the queue system being it will be looking for a limited areas rather than multiple that out numbers them 10 to 1. I rather be able to play, wait a bit than constant DC do to server errors.

Queue up for certain content as 1 role yes. Ex: dun scaith as drk, void ark as drg, and weeping city as whm.

But when you queue as whm, drk, and drg for 1 duty then that's where the system has a problem

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Originally Posted by Derio

But when you queue as whm, drk, and drg for 1 duty then that's where the system has a problem

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It's literally not a problem in any other MMO. Thus the argument that SE needs to get their crap together.

It's absolutely incredible that people would actually argue against game improvement, no matter what their reasons may be.

Crikey, this blew up more than I anticipated in the last 24 hours. But there's some points in particular I wish to address.

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Originally Posted by Niraye

Also you shouldn't just expect EVERY game to be like the other.

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Given this comment was trying to say this would be like WoW (or how I inferred it as such at least), that would be wrong. Even with this QoL change it would still be nothing like WoW, since in WoW you have individual classes that can do multiple roles (but you have to queue as that one class within the constraints of the roles it can do, for example mages are just DPS. Want to queue as tank or healer, you best login to a class that can do it, if anything with the systems FFXIV has you'd possibly have even MORE freedom than WoW)

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

I just feel like this is, just que as tank but a 1% chance you'll que in progress as a dps or healer

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Yeah, I accept I'll most likely get a tank, but what if I end up in that random off-shoot that needs a healer or a DPS? I'm more than happy to do that, whereas with the current system I would have to pick one role and stick by it, essentially shafting those who may need that healer or DPS if I choose tank because it's usually the one in need. This basically allows those willing to fill in any role work towards the compositions of the other parties involved.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Raid appears almost full, then switches, almost there, switches.

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Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Already happens in game.

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I'm a programmer and trust me the encoding is easy. The requirements that the system searches for. maintenance, constant problems it can cause is not worth it.

*snipped section*

Now picture doing that for over 1 million players on one server, and cross servers at once. Wonder why FF doesn't have that much black out maintenance like Wildstar does?

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I will admit that I don't understand the individual nuances of how it could affect servers. However generally speaking, an end-user will see that other games have it, and we don't. And they will be like "well they were able to pull it off, why can't we?" and I will be honest with you, I have to agree with the people that say if FFXIV has rubbish code it needs fixing or scrapping no matter how difficult an undertaking that would be. Another example would be housing but threads about that are already a dime a dozen so I won't go into any details here about that.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

an end-user will see that other games have it, and we don't. And they will be like "well they were able to pull it off, why can't we?"

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Exactly the point we were trying to make in one of the housing threads in comparison to Wildstar. How can a game which is essentially a brand new I.P, developed by an upstart studio, had its own fair share of trouble, has a much smaller player base, is free to play and is funded by cash shop purchases and optional subscriptions. Able to do much more, meet expected MMO standards in terms of player expectations and QoL features and continue to add in new features. Where as FFXIV, a triple A game, with one of the biggest names in gaming on it, developed and produced by one of the most known companies in existence, funded by forced subscriptions and optional cash shop purchases, all with a considerably larger player base, can't?

I get it, Yoshida had the impossible task of rebuilding a game from scratch and had to get it back out in a year. Where as most development studios need 3-5 years to flesh things out completely when starting a new game. I was forgiving in 2.0 for this reason. I'd have hoped by now certain standards would have been met (housing, glamor catalogue, etc) a game can still do its own thing while meeting expected standards. I just don't know why he won't fix or improve some elements. Maybe he doesn't want to spend money on top of money for already developed things. Maybe he's afraid changing things will be code for "we messed up again!" in the eyes of players and share holders.

I like what they did with Diadem, everyone can change their class there. I have had groups where the tank would leave the dungeon without saying a word and as everyone already knows waiting for a new tank might take some time. If we had the option to change our classes in the dungeon, then this would reduce the downtime while the group is waiting for a replacement.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

And we're back to the point I've made several times on this thread already. This isn't some insanely innovative idea that's never been heard of before. If FFXIV's systems can't handle the complexity of this, they're sub-optimal and should be improved. The developers should be polishing their resumes if they can't achieve something here that already exists in other games, including some with smaller budgets. I mean, imagine if I was a major company's customer service manager and tried to tell my boss that I couldn't meet customer expectations because updating our process would be too complex--meanwhile, our customers see three of our competitors already doing the thing I'm saying is too complex. It wouldn't fly. I would get fired.

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You're making an awful lot of assumptions about the situation here that are pretty unwarranted. I seriously doubt it's an issue of the devs not being able to implement a system like this or the hardware not being up to the task. They undoubtedly knew their competitors had it, and made the decision that while it was a nice feature it wasn't worth the extra effort (particularly given the amazing time crunch they were under to completely rebuild the game from 1.0). The system that is in place may not be great, but it's simple and it works.

Now that the current system is in place, the question is no longer "can the devs do it?", but "is it worth the time and money to completely rebuild the party queuing system, once again?" And, to be honest, as nice as such a system would be, I really don't see players clamoring for it like they do a lot of other features. This one is the only thread I've seen in more than a year on the topic. (It HAS been suggested before, but it's been a while.) Honestly, I foresee an overhaul of the Glamour system coming long before a change like this one. There's like a half dozen threads per month whining about class restrictions, gender restrictions, forced sharing of glamours for tanks, healers, and mages, and so on.

It is good that these threads exist, as they DO show the devs that we're interested in improvements like this, but don't assume too much about how easy it will be, or what kind of extra time the devs have to devote to it. SE DOES want to please their customers - it's the best way to retain customers, and build up a good reputation - but there's limits to what they're willing to shell out for.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

I mean, imagine if I was a major company's customer service manager and tried to tell my boss that I couldn't meet customer expectations because updating our process would be too complex--meanwhile, our customers see three of our competitors already doing the thing I'm saying is too complex. It wouldn't fly. I would get fired.

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If you were a major company's customer service manager you would be some outsourced guy in India, the Philippines, Romania, Costa Rica or some other non-first world country that just barely speaks English.

Most major companies don't actually care about customers' petty grievances.

does like Google even have customer service? you have a problem with one of their "products" they just tell you it's in Beta on some forum post and tell you deal with it until they get around to updating it at some unspecified time in the future.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about the situation here that are pretty unwarranted.

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Why take my post out of context? I was literally responding to someone who claimed doing an update like this would be too hard. That's why my post is all about how this issue really shouldn't be too hard for Square's devs...

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The system that is in place may not be great, but it's simple and it works.

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As has been asked multiple times on this forum, why defend a system you yourself note is "not great"? FFXIV is one of the few remaining major MMOs with both a subscription fee and a cash shop and a (relatively) large consistent subscription base, and yet just because the current system "works," we shouldn't question whether there's some serious back-end issues with the game that are preventing it from adopting a quality of life feature that many other major MMOs already have? :/

I absolutely agree that there should be an overhaul to the glamour system. The fact that it ever came out as cumbersome and limited as it did--when again, other MMOs have handled it far better--is further proof of sub-par infrastructure in this game's design, not less, don't you think?

As for threads on this... I think you are very mistaken? There are so, so, so many threads about irritation with long duty finder queue times (the exact issue this idea was supposed to address) that I can only think it's willful blindness to say you haven't seen players clamoring for something to be done about queueing.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

SE DOES want to please their customers - it's the best way to retain customers, and build up a good reputation - but there's limits to what they're willing to shell out for.

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SE wants to do what all companies do: make the maximum amount of profit for the minimum amount of investment. That's a basic in business. Not making badly needed changes to their duty finder queueing, taking multiple years to even upgrade the inventory system, the dismal situation with housing--these are all perfect examples of a company who knows that there are customers out there who will support a game that just "works," even if it's "not great." If that's what you're willing to settle for, okay I guess? Have fun? Meanwhile, I'll continue to point out that sub-par systems are sub-par systems and really shouldn't be defended.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

As for threads on this... I think you are very mistaken? There are so, so, so many threads about irritation with long duty finder queue times (the exact issue this idea was supposed to address) that I can only think it's willful blindness to say you haven't seen players clamoring for something to be done about queueing.

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I apologize if I took your post out of context. It looked to me as though you were suggesting that the SE devs should be fired for creating the system as it exists, and I was trying to point out that they had good reasons for doing so originally (rush job, corners had to be cut), and good reasons for leaving it the way it is now (the benefits of the change do not outweigh the costs). Doing what you're told to do by management doesn't sound like grounds for termination to me!

In regards to "threads like this", I'm NOT including DPS queue threads in that tally because, as is stated in the very first post in this thread, allowing players to queue on multiple roles will NOT affect the queue times. Not to any significant degree, at any rate. There is absolutely nothing stopping a DPS now from getting a fast queue. All they have to do is queue up as tank or healer. Why don't they? Because they want to DPS. If a DPS who wants to DPS is given the option to sign up as tank and healer as well, they won't use it - because if they get pulled in on tank or healer, then they won't be on DPS!

You are correct that "DPS queues are too long!" complaint threads are nigh ubiquitous in the General Forums - but what is being proposed by the OP is not a solution to that problem, and he's very aware of it.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

As for threads on this... I think you are very mistaken? There are so, so, so many threads about irritation with long duty finder queue times (the exact issue this idea was supposed to address) that I can only think it's willful blindness to say you haven't seen players clamoring for something to be done about queueing.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

You are correct that "DPS queues are too long!" complaint threads are nigh ubiquitous in the General Forums - but what is being proposed by the OP is not a solution to that problem, and he's very aware of it.

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Lineage is correct, most of the people making the DPS queues are too long threads are wanting DPS queues reduced. This won't significantly affect DPS queues as the players that play purely DPS are extremely likely to... keep playing DPS exclusively even with this QoL update. This is only likely to affect the existing tank and healer playerbase as usually if you're tanking and healing, you're far more likely to be willing to fill in a role since these 2 roles are more in demand. Given the huge discrepency in queue times most of the DPS players willing to fill in for other roles will have already swapped to a healer or tank to do just that. Here's proof from the OP:

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Those who want to DPS, just queue as DPS anyway and are likely to use this to just queue as different DPS. But for those who are happy to do any role to fill a group, would now have the option.

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Now, it's possible the quicker queues from the filler-inners filling in any role will have some positive impact on DPS queues because of this, as a knock-on effect to the filler-inners filling more groups faster, but it won't revolutionise DPS queues and make them as quick as healer and tank (or if this is implemented, also filler-inner) queues

This doesn't sound like an inherently bad idea, but due to gear restrictions, you'd probably actually have to queue as a gear-set, not just a job/class.

In this thread, people who obviously don't program trying to posit when programmers should be fired without knowing any details about the database, programming languages or hardware in use by each development team. Yes, languages. There are multiple. They all have certain capabilities and restrictions. So do the different database systems. The setup that you have has a direct effect on what you can code the logic in to do and you can absolutely be limited by it.

Developers also don't decide the projects that will move the business forward. They can make a case to those who control the purse strings, but even Yoshi-P has shareholders he will be answerable to who want to keep costs low and want deliverables they can market.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

God I would love to be able to queue for more than one role at a time. It can sometimes be really trickly which is faster to queue as. A lot of times I am not fussy which Job I play. I just want to do the content.

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I think it would seriously do a lot to help the duty finder if they allowed you to queue for as many options as you can qualify for.

Let people check all the roles, job, or whatever that they are willing to do - and then when it pops, it pops with "you have been selected as [role], choose one of these jobs you have at sufficient level: [a], [b], [c] and click accept."
- you hit the checkbox for one of those classes, the system puts on your highest iLevel saved gear set (or recommended gear if you lack a saved set), and in you go.

People could then just pick one role they want, only check one class they want, or check as many boxes as they desire.

PS to the poster above me: I actually am a software engineer. Something like I describe ought to be of about moderate difficulty to do, many of the pieces of it are already in-game elsewhere.

Noooooooooooooo this would just destroy the ques.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Noooooooooooooo this would just destroy the ques.

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Destroy them how? Show us some examples, like we've shown examples of how it can help the queues.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

This won't significantly affect DPS queues as the players that play purely DPS are extremely likely to... keep playing DPS exclusively even with this QoL update.

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Definitely don't mean to contradict on your own thread, and I'm sure you understand your idea better than I do, but I think the only group that would see a significant change in queue times from this would be DPS?

I guess I'm thinking of it like this, if we take the example of people queuing solo for a 4-man duty:

A person who mains tank now queues as tank/healer/DPS.
90% of the time, their queue time wouldn't change because they already queued as the fastest thing (tank). Maybe, on the rare occasion, something else is needed, but for the most part, they wouldn't see a significant change from this.

A person who mains healer now queues as healer/tank/DPS.
They will see an decrease in queue time because they will often end up playing tank. However, since they were already getting relatively speedy queue times, this won't be a massive change for them.

A person who mains DPS now queues as DPS/tank, DPS/healer, or DPS/tank/healer.
This is the only group liable to see a significant shortening in queue times because they previously went from being only in the longest queue to now being the shortest and second shortest queues. The number of people who are liable to queue like this is small but not non-existent, and that's the big deal. Anything that can be done to reduce the number of DPS queuing as DPS only will have an impact on the overall queue for everyone.

As for the people who play DPS only and will never queue as tank or healer--they still do get a bonus from any of the above scenarios. Right now, the worst shortage is tanks. In expert roulette, when I queue as heals, I currently get thrown into a waiting list typically between 15-20 other healers. If even five of those healers marked tank too, that's five more parties that go through the DF--which means five more groups of DPS that also got in faster. If even 5 DPS mark tank or healer, that's another five parties moving up the queue. It will improve the queue times for DPS overall. It's not a miracle cure for sure, but it would be a step in the right direction.

Not to mention the example I gave earlier about pre-made groups. Allowing flexibility in the roles for a partial pre-made would significant speed up queue times for DPS, particularly in older content, by making it easier to find matches for partial pre-made groups. A group that could only fit one DPS before might suddenly be able to fit three if people were allowed to queue flexibly. It would help.

I feel like you shouldn't sell your own idea short! XD

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

I'm fully aware that queuing is a complex process behind the scenes. But if something that already exists in other places and would massively improve player quality of life is too complex for FFXIV's developers to implement... maybe it's time to get some new developers. :/

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You do remember the fiasco last time they tried to fix ques? Also you can check the many discussions over on PvP about how the duty finder works. It is not the most optimal system. They also have a strong desire against change. Which leads one to believe that poor design from the start would cause them to redo.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

In this thread, people who obviously don't program trying to posit when programmers should be fired without knowing any details about the database... The setup that you have has a direct effect on what you can code the logic in to do and you can absolutely be limited by it.

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Are you suggesting that FFXIV's setup is so limited that it absolutely cannot achieve something WoW, Wildstar, and other MMOs have already been able to? And, if so, are you really okay with the long-term implications of that statement? If they are so limited they can't achieve what other MMOs already have at the current moment, what does that say about the game's ability to continue competing in the future? This is why we've been debating whether or not a consistent lack of updates to the queuing system is a sign of significant back-end development issues which might validate a need for new developers. Certainly a lack of new content will kill a game, but persistent and likely increasing issues with quality of life can kill a game too. It isn't ridiculous to expect FFXIV's back-end setup to be on par with the setups of other major MMOs, nor to expect FFXIV's developers to be able to do what other major MMO game developers already have.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Developers also don't decide the projects that will move the business forward. They can make a case to those who control the purse strings, but even Yoshi-P has shareholders he will be answerable to who want to keep costs low and want deliverables they can market.

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And there's the nail on the head. Like I mentioned in my previous post, Square is going to do everything in its power to maximize profits while minimizing investment. So long as players continue to complacently play without complaining, this game will never get the major infrastructure changes it clearly desperately needs. That's why we need threads like this! So that player feedback can continue to be passed along, putting pressure on decision-makers to make said major infrastructure changes.

We get nothing by being quiet. That's just basic logic?

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

Noooooooooooooo this would just destroy the ques.

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I actually think it would have the opposite effect. People who right now are willing to tank or heal, but desire more to DPS - can only pick one and then sit in queue for it. Such people, in a multi-queue, could pick any, and go where demand puts them.

I like how in WoW, whatever is currently the least popular choice, gets a bonus item. When they started that system it was something really nice. I got several "rare" mounts and minions from it because I was willing to select the 'tank' option. Now they give you some minor token points... so it has no impact on actually swaying people, and is just the 'bonus for being a healer or tank', or for 'entry raids'... for being a 'DPS'.
- But just the fact that you can queue for any role there, often speeds things up. I used to pick all 3 selections (my mains were monk, druid, paladin), I didn't always get pulled in as tank - but I did get fast queues.

While this is a Good Idea, I had my own idea about helping queue times in this game. So instead of creating a new thread, i'm just do something somewhat construtive instead of saying why I don't want the game to change and stay stagnant by adding on my idea to yours..

Now your idea does have some sound it and you're on to something, I like it, it would help a bit with ques. What I had in mind for a thread was like what if they took the party structure from something that already in the game (and proven to destory queue times)? AKA PotD.. (Now i'm not saying ALL content in the game needs to be this way & yes I realize current content isn't built for this but would be nice to throw this out there and see more content built around this to help with que's outside of it)

PotD is by far one of the most succuessful pieces of content released for the game & with PotD party stucture anyone could que up as anyone Role/Job of there prefered choice. When queued, you could end up with 4 Tanks, 4 Healers, maybe 3 DPS and 1 healer ("Whelp, there's your party fellas. Up to you to win, go figure it out!" lol). That's part of the fun, part of the challenge.

I mean, how many people who have queued up as DPS have waited longer then 5-10 mins (if that long)? Because I rarely have and when the expansion launches, it quite "possibly" will have the fastest queue times in the game. (Going of on a limb with this one but) Who knows, with this type of structure they could possibly add a 4th role to the game adding more varity or XIV exclusive jobs. Because other then this, I don't see any other possible way then could add one but thats a topic for another thread.

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Originally Posted by Jadub2k

Now your idea does have some sound it and you're on to something, I like it, it would help a bit with ques. What I had in mind for a thread was like what if they took the party structure from something that already in the game (and proven to destory queue times)? AKA PotD..

PotD is by far one of the most succuessful pieces of content released for the game & with PotD party stucture anyone could que up as anyone Role/Job of there prefered choice. When queued, you could end up with 4 Tanks, 4 Healers, maybe 3 DPS and 1 healer ("Whelp, there's your party fellas. Up to you to win, go figure it out!" lol). That's part of the fun, part of the challenge.

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'PotD suffers from the Guild Wars 2 problem: All of the enemies, and even the boss fights, have simple mechanics that don't require coordination and can't do much damage to you if you simply pay attention to position and don't overpull.

- The fights are actually amazingly boring after a short time.

The content is only "successful" because it gives an iLevel 255 weapon and can speed level classes that are not tanks or healers. Everyone I meet in or out of PoTD hates the place, but they run it because 'they feel they have to'...

Doing that, game wide, in Guild Wars 2 - nearly killed their game. Instead they got rid of their entire dungeon design team, hired new people, and put in a traditional raiding system (with trinity roles), and focused on an expansion that was otherwise only open world content and 'events' (basically like FATES, but often chained together).