FF14 HW Excitement/Patch 2.5X VS SB Excitement/Patch 3.5X!

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Originally Posted by Tint

people were hyped for 3.0 because we expected new, exciting content. but all what we got was another tome grind to get gear wich is replaced just a few weeks later.

people are not hyped for 4.0, because they expect nothing more than another tome grind for gear wich will be replaced within weeks.

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People don't seem to know what they want. Whenever anyone asks what they'd rather have, the general round-about answer is, 'Something Else.' Why, "Fix," what isn't broken? I guess people don't like grinding tomes for upgrades? How should progress be handled then? Grind dungeons for upgrade components to existing sets and they never change aesthetic? Seems like a good way to have only -1- new set appearance for an entire expansion, which I'm 99% sure people would hate. Should gear just be static in terms of stats and iLvl? So when the next raid comes out all the new gear is just... glamour options? Pretty sure people will hate that, since there wouldn't be progression... Should gear be strictly an RNG drop from Dungeon/Raid bosses? I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure RNG is something players universally hate, and prefer to have as little of as possible...

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, but honestly, what do people who want a change with the system really want, exactly? More RNG? A Lack of power progression? Less glamour options?

The answer seems to be, 'Something different!' But that's never extrapolated on, and anything, 'different,' has a pretty high likelihood of being something players won't want, will complain over loudly, and then we'll see a deluge of threads demanding we go back to Tomestones because it was the best system, giving you tangible rewards for each bit of progress you made.

I'm just so... so confused when people complain about the current system without ever having an idea for a viable alternative that won't be universally panned...

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Originally Posted by Vexander

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They're the developers, not us. It's not our role to design the game for them lol.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

They're the developers, not us. It's not our role to design the game for them lol.

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Then there is a difference between providing constructive feedback, and just complaining uselessly, and people should keep that in mind when posting.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

They're the developers, not us. It's not our role to design the game for them lol.

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You order the same meal you have ordered every time at your favorite restaurant. However, this time, you don't like the food so much you call the server and tell them you don't like it.
They ask, "Well, what do you want then?"
The only answer you give them is, "Something else." Or, "The same thing but better."

The server goes back to the kitchen and tells this to the cook. What in the world do you expect the cook to do now? He's not an artist, he's working at a restaurant where everyone else enjoys the food as it has always been served, what should he do?

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Originally Posted by Vexander

The answer seems to be, 'Something different!' But that's never extrapolated on, and anything, 'different,' has a pretty high likelihood of being something players won't want, will complain over loudly, and then we'll see a deluge of threads demanding we go back to Tomestones because it was the best system, giving you tangible rewards for each bit of progress you made.
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how about none of that/ how about the relic starts at 70, not 6 months after release in case some of us didnt want to lose friends to an overtuned raid, which showed up a month after release, how about if youre going to change how skills like lustrate work for the expansion, how about you change the vit/str changes for tank jobs before we get half a year invested into a meta then everything changes. to make 1 tank role. a little better how about you keep the 900 weekly maximum, since most everybody WAS encouraged to level different roles and jobs to be able to gear more than one per patch cycke, how about any of these things they just dont do? A little different, a little sensible, hell a little less annoying and maybe stop saying "its ok to unsub after content gets boring, esp you guys you raiders, come back in half a year when we come out with something you care about" how about not doing all of that? Thats different, thats been requested and as far as i know, most everyone would be fine with something "not what they keep doing" which means its "something different" how about they just do that? that would probably work leagues over what weve been through for 4 years and im pretty sure we all want those things

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

You order the same meal you have ordered every time at your favorite restaurant. However, this time, you don't like the food so much you call the server and tell them you don't like it.
They ask, "Well, what do you want then?"
The only answer you give them is, "Something else." Or, "The same thing but better."

The server goes back to the kitchen and tells this to the cook. What in the world do you expect the cook to do now? He's not an artist, he's working at a restaurant where everyone else enjoys the food as it has always been served, what should he do?

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yeah how about toss 300 more tomes on that weekly bacon i cap by wednesday just by doing dailies, ive already got a healer and tank levelled to 70, since eureka isnt coming till 4 months from now?

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Originally Posted by Vexander

Then there is a difference between providing constructive feedback, and just complaining uselessly, and people should keep that in mind when posting.

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Constructive feedback means pointing out flaws, not offering solutions. Stop being obtuse, you don't go to a doctor and tell him how to cure your pain.

Im just as excited for stormblood as I was for heavensward which is very!

I just know now that the titles of the expansions for this game are about as important and relevant as Half blood prince title was to the Harry Potter story. (Not relevant or important at all past one small moment in both)

I hear these complaints daily. Some people talking about how they will quit when SB inevitably fails them, or how they are quitting now before it gets even worse. But then I ask them, "What do you think is wrong with SB?" I get the same answers. The same that OP has uttered. Is this pack mentality? Is this people whining because humans need to whine to live? No, neither I believe. It's a Bias view based on previous events. While previous events can show patterns and even be used to predict future outcomes, it's not perfect. Past events can also be used to show flaws, to show areas of improvement. I think that is where Yoshida is heading, but he has one big hurdle. You, and me. Whenever he tries to take a step in a direction, he gets yelled at by the community. People begin to form their own interpretations, their own meanings behind words he says. For example, him saying that they will continue with the same plan with SB as ARR and HW. Now, everyone(even myself at first) see that as, we are going to get the same. There won't be a change, it's just copy and paste, this isn't fun, but then I began to think. HW WAS different from ARR, in a lot of good ways too. Just think about it. They stated before that they were doing too much throughout the life of FFXIV. Why we only have 2 classes, why we only have 2 dungeons. Look at the Level 60 dungeons versus Level 50 Dungeons. I was going back through them with friends, synced too, and I realized, there isn't a whole lot to them. There was a few with interesting mechanics, but for the most part, that was it. They were dull, they were boring, but look at the level 60s. A lot of times it's like mini-raids, especially when they are first released. Look at the trials! I remember back in the days, I remember people going through formulas to beat Coil. That was it though, people would write down Titan's rotation only because the delay was atrocious back then. Now? I'm hearing and seeing all these theories and formulas, FOR DUNGEONS! Weeping was hell, but it was fun! People were talking to each other as if it was a raid. Before that? A gets adds, B goes into belly, and C gets chains. Oh boy, that was riveting! It's small, but there is change happening. It's us that stop it, not Yoshida. Us who complain when something is hard, but then complain it's too easy. Us who complain that this system is flawed, but when they are fixed bring it up again and again. Us who yell at Yoshida for Parsers even when we heard his answer a thousand times before.

I'm way more excited for SB because I just want my sword-based dps class. I like this game and I have no intention of quitting. I like how the game is aside from the massive tome grind (<---they could stand to fix that in SB). Otherwise, looks fine to me. I look forward to exploring ala mihgo and the Eastern Continent.

My excitement to heavensward didn't carry me to release, mostly because I wasn't a fan of how 2.55 ended, I was angry, but I guess anger is better than apathy.

I feel apathy for 4.0, mostly because there is so little to hope for out of the devs. I'm not hyped for the story, hearing nothing about job changes has me suspicious, and there are no illusions about a change in content or anything other than a pervasive grind for tokens, which I cannot escape even as a crafter/gatherer.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Constructive feedback means pointing out flaws, not offering solutions. Stop being obtuse, you don't go to a doctor and tell him how to cure your pain.

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Constructive feedback or constructive criticism? Because the latter includes giving suggestions to help improve the overall product. I've been hearing a lot of players complain that SB is going to be more of the same (despite not playing it at all). So far, little to no solutions were to make improvements. You don't need a be game designer to suggest what needs to be changed and what to replace with. They say they want change, but aren't clear on what they want. tbh, and I'm not trying to white knight, but I think some players are just ungrateful with what they have. One of the biggest examples of this (not calling out names), is the cloud mount thread. Players are complaining that the sitting pose on their mount isn't what they wanted it to be, yet other players cannot get it at all.

This isn't a recent conversation, There have been suggestions made in the past, but many of them do not reach the devs pr are shot down by players that either are too new to experience the burnout or benefit largely from the system, and therefore would resist any change whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Tint

even the raid scene got disappointed with 3.0.

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HW nearly wiped out raiding and the recovery is slow due to many people just outright quitting over it. I hope that they spend more time with the new raids or they will probably loose me as well.

What is this "massive tome grind" people keep going on about, anyway? Doing an expert dungeon five days a week to have the maximum number of top-end tomestones is not a "massive grind." The weekly cap is a time sink, and that's not likely to be removed from the system. And even if they raised or removed the tomestone cap, how does changing the system to something else improve it, exactly? I like having a system where everything I do matters, and where I can gear up without going out of my way just to get gear. Plus, having a higher cap or none would make it an actual "massive grind."

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

how about none of that/ how about the relic starts at 70, not 6 months after release in case some of us didnt want to lose friends to an overtuned raid, which showed up a month after release, how about if youre going to change how skills like lustrate work for the expansion, how about you change the vit/str changes for tank jobs before we get half a year invested into a meta then everything changes. to make 1 tank role. a little better how about you keep the 900 weekly maximum, since most everybody WAS encouraged to level different roles and jobs to be able to gear more than one per patch cycke, how about any of these things they just dont do? A little different, a little sensible, hell a little less annoying and maybe stop saying "its ok to unsub after content gets boring, esp you guys you raiders, come back in half a year when we come out with something you care about" how about not doing all of that? Thats different, thats been requested and as far as i know, most everyone would be fine with something "not what they keep doing" which means its "something different" how about they just do that? that would probably work leagues over what weve been through for 4 years and im pretty sure we all want those things

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So your complaints are that they improved things, but the specific time frame was inconvenient for you? Is your suggestion therefore "work faster"? Also, do you really think a 900-tome cap at the start of the expansion is going to encourage people to level different roles? After they've fully geared up their first role in 6 weeks instead of double that, sure. The only reason it encouraged people right now is because they've already geared up their main role.

Id really like to know what kinda changes you guys want exactly, Ive almost played a year now like what exactly do you guys expect the thing about it is many people cut themselves short. Many people tons dont raid , tons of people dont even do extreme trails, tons of people dont craft or gather. So its not that the content isnt there its that the majority of playes pick one thing and just stop there, is it se fault that people dont tank, or that people dont heal. Is it their fault that nobody wants to step out of their own comfort zone I would think not, but sure lets blame them its content their people just dont play it like they could.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Constructive feedback means pointing out flaws, not offering solutions. Stop being obtuse, you don't go to a doctor and tell him how to cure your pain.

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Without any constructive criticism though, the devs can only guess what will appeal to us. Case in point: Diadem. If all people did was scream how boring it was, well... fun is entirely subjective. They could do any number of things yet have no way of knowing whether it'll appeal.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Constructive feedback means pointing out flaws, not offering solutions. Stop being obtuse, you don't go to a doctor and tell him how to cure your pain.

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No, that's constructive criticism, not constructive feedback.

Constructive feedback is, "I find this unenjoyable because <reason>, but I believe I would enjoy it more if <suggestion>."

As an example, "I find tomestones unenjoyable because the cap is too low for me to satisfactorily gear second jobs before new gear comes along. I believe I would enjoy it more if the tomestone cap was doubled (900) so that I would have a better chance at gearing a second job."

Then, if you REALLY want to try and show your feedback is well-thought you, you would add an additional statement such as, "I believe this would be beneficial to the community as a whole, because once players can gear up more than one job before new tome gear comes out, they'll be encouraged to try more jobs, which may include multiple roles such as tanking and healing, which we sorely lack."

But no, you don't see a whole lot of that these days. All you see is, "OH MY GOD, STORMBLOOD IS GOING TO BE THE SAME OLD TOMESTONE GRIND, GIVE ME SOMETHING DIFFERENT!"

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Originally Posted by Vexander

No, that's constructive criticism, not constructive feedback.

Constructive feedback is, "I find this unenjoyable because <reason>, but I believe I would enjoy it more if <suggestion>."

As an example, "I find tomestones unenjoyable because the cap is too low for me to satisfactorily gear second jobs before new gear comes along. I believe I would enjoy it more if the tomestone cap was doubled (900) so that I would have a better chance at gearing a second job."

Then, if you REALLY want to try and show your feedback is well-thought you, you would add an additional statement such as, "I believe this would be beneficial to the community as a whole, because once players can gear up more than one job before new tome gear comes out, they'll be encouraged to try more jobs, which may include multiple roles such as tanking and healing, which we sorely lack."

But no, you don't see a whole lot of that these days. All you see is, "OH MY GOD, STORMBLOOD IS GOING TO BE THE SAME OLD TOMESTONE GRIND, GIVE ME SOMETHING DIFFERENT!"

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In all fairness, people have suggested that, and other people (like me) have argued against it. People will rightly point out that the suggestions they do make often get shot down by the community. But... I think that's because those suggestions are bad. That's why I want specifics: I don't think the game is "broken" so I don't want to communicate to the devs that they should "fix" it. And most of the specific suggestions I see are things I would absolutely hate, and I want to be able to specifically argue against them.

There have been some good suggestions in the past. While I think permanently doubling the tomestone cap is a bad idea (for a variety of reasons I've talked about elsewhere), a system that limits you by job or role instead of by number could work well. A few good ones have been proposed in the past. Because those solutions address the problem people say they want fixed (not being able to gear up multiple jobs) without doubling the gear rate and requiring far more grinding, which would be the primary effect of doubling the tomestone cap.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

In all fairness, people have suggested that, and other people (like me) have argued against it. People will rightly point out that the suggestions they do make often get shot down by the community. But... I think that's because those suggestions are bad. That's why I want specifics: I don't think the game is "broken" so I don't want to communicate to the devs that they should "fix" it. And most of the specific suggestions I see are things I would absolutely hate, and I want to be able to specifically argue against them.

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Everyone is free to have an opinion. I'm pretty happy with the way the game is going to be honest. For me when it comes to gearing a second job I usually wait until the new tomestone gear is released anyway, and gear them in the previous set since it's still good enough to be doing current content in, and I can upgrade it with raid drops. Not that I really, 'Raid,' in the traditional sense I suppose. I don't do Savage or Extreme content. I don't PvP either. I don't do much crafting. I like collecting things like transmog appearances, pets, and the likes, and leveling jobs for no other reason than because I can. The game gives me plenty as is.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Id really like to know what kinda changes you guys want exactly

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These are my own personal improvements.

- Apply the overall design philosophy from PotD to dungeons and expand upon it; necessitate priority mobs DPS need to focus down, the potential for mobs to break aggro, thus preventing tanks from just spamming Overpower/Abyssal Drain to easily maintain hate. Continuing along these lines, each dungeon has multiple pathways that are randomly generated per instanced. This attempts to keep the design fresh longer since it wouldn't be the exact same hallway for three months.

- Increase heal checks by a noticeable margin. Healer DPS should be a rewarded for experienced players, not something you do because you're downright useless otherwise. Obviously, the severity of these checks range based on content level.

- Consider changing the tomestone restriction to a per job basis. Therefore, you can gear multiple jobs at once but progression remains limited enough to prevent farming everything within a few weeks.

- Include a third tier difficulty for raiders meant solely for challenge purposes. These can be any fight currently in the game, albeit buffed to exceptionally high levels.

- Add a twelve forsaken-glamour log. Seriously.

- Overhaul Crafter Specialists to simply be a higher stat increase (more so than now) and unlock all cross skill abilities regardless of those jobs' respective level; scrap recipe restrictions and red scrips.

- Scale open world hunts according to player participation. Each interval of eight new players registering attacks increases the boss' stats/recovers HP to accommodate. Perhaps tie hunts to our relic progression in some capacity for more incentive.

- Allow for more varied and consistent ways of progressing said relic. If initiated early, the light step actually has potential, albeit with some restrictions to discourage farming one practically piece of content.

- Introduce more varied stats like Mastery from WoW. And for the love of the twelve, clearly label precisely how they contribute to your overall damage/healing potency/aggro management/whatever. Some examples being skill speed having a more meaningful impact, possible ways to adjust TP or resistances. Put another way, give us some sort of decides that do not always boil down to "Crit > Det/Spell Speed.

- Allow players to queue under multiple roles with the caveat being you may potentially be forced onto a role should other players queue on a single job. An example being, I queue as both a DPS and healer. If no one else queues as a healer when the dungeon pops, I am automatically switched to whatever healer I registered once we load into the instance.
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Could probably cover a few more, but those are some off the cuff ideas.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

These are my own personal improvements.

- Apply the overall design philosophy from PotD to dungeons and expand upon it; necessitate priority mobs DPS need to focus down, the potential for mobs to break aggro, thus preventing tanks from just spamming Overpower/Abyssal Drain to easily maintain hate. Continuing along these lines, each dungeon has multiple pathways that are randomly generated per instanced. This attempts to keep the design fresh longer since it wouldn't be the exact same hallway for three months.

- Increase heal checks by a noticeable margin. Healer DPS should be a rewarded for experienced players, not something you do because you're downright useless otherwise. Obviously, the severity of these checks range based on content level.

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So, make dungeons harder, basically? I mean that sounds nice, except a lot of the dungeons I've ran recently have been with newer players and they barely got through them. Healers particularly seem to have a lot of trouble. In a lot of cases this would lead to people quitting the game. That said, I think the problem is less "dungeons are too easy" than "we are way overgeared for them." More closely aligning new dungeons with item levels might help with that, but it's mathematically a much more complicated problem than one might assume. I'd err on the side of easier dungeons too, if I were Square Enix.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- Consider changing the tomestone restriction to a per job basis. Therefore, you can gear multiple jobs at once but progression remains limited enough to prevent farming everything within a few weeks.

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As stated, this will not work. The reason is, as a white mage I could grab the healer body for White Mage, then the healer pants for Astrologian, then the healer head piece for Scholar, while the poor Dragoon can only get one piece. That said, this is a solvable problem. You could cap tomestones by role, or to not screw DPS, by sub-role (melee DPS/ranged DPS/caster DPS). Or you could not cap tomestones at all and every time you buy a piece, you are restricted from buying another piece that shares any of that piece's jobs for the week (so you could get WHM, AST, and SCH weapons in the same week, but only one piece of their other gear). You could also make every piece of tomestone gear, including accessories and belts, for a single job, but that would actually make gearing up much harder. Again, it's fixable, but it's not as simple as it seems.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- Include a third tier difficulty for raiders meant solely for challenge purposes. These can be any fight currently in the game, albeit buffed to exceptionally high levels.

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Didn't people complain about Alex Savage already? As someone who has no interest in Extreme or Savage, I don't care one way or another if they add a higher difficulty, provided there's no story or mechanics I care about locked behind it. But how do you propose adding this to "any fight currently in the game"? Do you just multiply enemy HP and damage, like an evil echo? That might work, but it wouldn't be particularly fun. Or do you expect them to retune every fight in the game for content presumably even less people than already do savage would ever do? That would be a waste of dev time.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- Add a twelve forsaken-glamour log. Seriously.

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Completely agree in principle. I am willing to believe there might be good technical reasons why this hasn't happened, but... yeah I definitely still want it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- Overhaul Crafter Specialists to simply be a higher stat increase and unlock all cross skill abilities regardless of those jobs' respective level; scrap recipe restrictions.

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I can't see this happening, but I very much like the idea. The best thing about 2.0 was the crafting system, and I felt like everything they changed about it in 3.0 (scripts, specialties, needing way more materials to make basic stuff) made it worse.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- Scale open world hunts according to player participation. Each interval of eight new players registering attacks increases the boss' stats/recovers HP to accommodate. Perhaps tie hunts to our relic progression in some capacity for more incentive.

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Scaling, yes. Tying it to Relic, dear god no! Unless it was purely optional. But I don't want to ever be forced to actually deal with the drama of hunts.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- Allow for more varied and consistent ways of progressing said relic. If initiated early, the light step actually has potential, albeit with some restrictions to discourage farming one practically piece of content.

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I feel like they're going to misinterpret this and make every step totally different, lol. I mean they actually kind of already did this. The umbrite/sands step allows a lot of ways to progress, they just all kind of suck. Building on what you said, I'd love to see a light step where you get bonus light every time you change content or something. It's no fun that your choices are A1S (or Garuda) grinding or waiting forever with the knowledge you're not being efficient.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

- Introduce more varied stats like Mastery from WoW. And for the love of the twelve, clearly label precisely how they contribute to your overall damage/healing potency/aggro management/whatever. Some examples being skill speed having a more meaningful impact, possible ways to adjust TP or resistances. Put another way, give us some sort of decides that do not always boil down to "Crit > Det/Spell Speed.

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Yes, please. More in-game information about mechanics is better.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

So, make dungeons harder, basically? I mean that sounds nice, except a lot of the dungeons I've ran recently have been with newer players and they barely got through them. Healers particularly seem to have a lot of trouble. In a lot of cases this would lead to people quitting the game. That said, I think the problem is less "dungeons are too easy" than "we are way overgeared for them." More closely aligning new dungeons with item levels might help with that, but it's mathematically a much more complicated problem than one might assume. I'd err on the side of easier dungeons too, if I were Square Enix.

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In essence, yes. Although, it's less a pure damage spike and more adding a sense of dynamism to an otherwise, in my opinion, stale design. At the moment, dungeons are mindless. We just sort of... do them because nothing practically interesting happens and I would prefer seeing that changed more so than simply bumping the ilvl. Keep in mind, we have multiple tiers. Leveling dungeons absolutely should be quite reasonable for less experienced players but we can be a bit more creative with Experts, especially if they stick with only two.

I strongly believe many people struggle because the game does a poor job incentivizing improvement. You only shrink the skill gap between players by bringing the bottom up. That can't happen if everything until EX Primals is essentially a faceroll.

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As stated, this will not work. The reason is, as a white mage I could grab the healer body for White Mage, then the healer pants for Astrologian, then the healer head piece for Scholar, while the poor Dragoon can only get one piece. That said, this is a solvable problem. You could cap tomestones by role, or to not screw DPS, by sub-role (melee DPS/ranged DPS/caster DPS). Or you could not cap tomestones at all and every time you buy a piece, you are restricted from buying another piece that shares any of that piece's jobs for the week (so you could get WHM, AST, and SCH weapons in the same week, but only one piece of their other gear). You could also make every piece of tomestone gear, including accessories and belts, for a single job, but that would actually make gearing up much harder. Again, it's fixable, but it's not as simple as it seems.

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Ah! I should have rephrased since I meant to imply what you summarized.

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Didn't people complain about Alex Savage already? As someone who has no interest in Extreme or Savage, I don't care one way or another if they add a higher difficulty, provided there's no story or mechanics I care about locked behind it. But how do you propose adding this to "any fight currently in the game"? Do you just multiply enemy HP and damage, like an evil echo? That might work, but it wouldn't be particularly fun. Or do you expect them to retune every fight in the game for content presumably even less people than already do savage would ever do? That would be a waste of dev time.

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They did, however this isn't intended for them. And yes, it would be a straight buff to all the bosses' stats. The devs actually mentioned doing this for odd patches to keep raiders occupied, though they didn't say whether it'd be a single fight or the whole raid tier. Either way, it would only be a stat buff to limit developer resources.

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I can't see this happening, but I very much like the idea. The best thing about 2.0 was the crafting system, and I felt like everything they changed about it in 3.0 (scripts, specialties, needing way more materials to make basic stuff) made it worse.

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Sadly, I agree. I feel the devs applied the same logic to crafting they did raiders: slow down the hardcore. It just doesn't work. Omni-crafters have alts, thus the whole scrips and Specialist system only hurt the tier below. Hopefully, they do better in Stormblood and Heavensward was a lesson learned.

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Scaling, yes. Tying it to Relic, dear god no! Unless it was purely optional. But I don't want to ever be forced to actually deal with the drama of hunts.

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Optional, definitely. Or have smaller hunts like what rank Bs are. You could even implement a system not unlike how Aquapolis spawns mobs when you locate a certain area. That way, it's something you can just do with friends on a smaller scale if you prefer.

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I feel like they're going to misinterpret this and make every step totally different, lol. I mean they actually kind of already did this. The umbrite/sands step allows a lot of ways to progress, they just all kind of suck. Building on what you said, I'd love to see a light step where you get bonus light every time you change content or something. It's no fun that your choices are A1S (or Garuda) grinding or waiting forever with the knowledge you're not being efficient.

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*cries at mention of umbrites*

Knowing how they have progressed the relics, probably! But yeah, I would love if they encouraged more content. I don't actually mind the HW light grind but the "windows" just makes it so everyone waits on A1 to be Sturdy. Here's hoping the refine it more or Eureka has something unique to offer.

Tossed on queuing with multiple roles/jobs to my last post too. Forgot about that one. :D

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

In essence, yes. Although, it's less a pure damage spike and more adding a sense of dynamism to an otherwise, in my opinion, stale design. At the moment, dungeons are mindless. We just sort of... do them because nothing practically interesting happens and I would prefer seeing that changed more so than simply bumping the ilvl. Keep in mind, we have multiple tiers. Leveling dungeons absolutely should be quite reasonable for less experienced players but we can be a bit more creative with Experts, especially if they stick with only two.

I strongly believe many people struggle because the game does a poor job incentivizing improvement. You only shrink the skill gap between players by bringing the bottom up. That can't happen if everything until EX Primals is essentially a faceroll.

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I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but I worry that this is going to cut the bottom off rather than bringing them up. In terms of apparent player skill, the effect is the same whether the bads get better or just disappear. I feel like older MMOs had their population restricted by this exact issue. But I could be wrong. I just don't personally think it's worth the risk.

Tbh I would really like for the forum to be more costructive like the 2 ppl above me have done so far rather than what we have now

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They did, however this isn't intended for them. And yes, it would be a straight buff to all the bosses' stats. The devs actually mentioned doing this for odd patches to keep raiders occupied, though they didn't say whether it'd be a single fight or the whole raid tier. Either way, it would only be a stat buff to limit developer resources.

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I think it would be nice if we once we got to the stage of adding echo to a fight, they instead gave the party leader a slider. One way buffs the party for those needing help clearing, one way buffs the enemy for those needing an extra challenge.

Difficulty slider
Easier| 10% | 5% | Default | 5% | 10% | 15% | 20% |Harder.

Then add an official weekly leader board for speed kills, kind of like how Palace has its score board.

Pretty niche stuff admittedly, but doesn't exactly strike me as hard to do either. I mean, once the system is in place it can be applied to everything easily enough I'd have thought. Even 4 man dungeons might be at least a bit interesting if you could whack the difficulty up 20% and race people.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Without any constructive criticism though, the devs can only guess what will appeal to us. Case in point: Diadem. If all people did was scream how boring it was, well... fun is entirely subjective. They could do any number of things yet have no way of knowing whether it'll appeal.

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People are pointing out exactly what they're tired of, though. Offering solutions is nice and all, but shouldn't be expected.

Personally I just want them to stop with "weekly and daily" obligations.

Why offer constructive feedback when the fanboys on this forum and elsewhere simply say "go play something else".

It's sufficient to tell the devs XYZ sucked or ABC needs to change. It's their job to brainstorm and see how to improve or develop new content based on the community's like or dislike of current content. They know their technical limitations as to what can actually be implemented, not us.

They are aware that a lot of their content would not be touched with a 10 foot pole if they did not tie it to relic/anima requirements, free i270 accessories or i270 gear upgrades. From what was said in many live letters and else where is their content development cycle is basically 1 year long. Content is approved, planned, created and introduced with such a long development cycle for it to become irrelevant as soon as the next patch hits in 3-6 months. That is their mistake.

They have had all of stormblood to take FFXIV in the direction they wanted as 2.0 is behind them. The community has a right to feel like 3.0 in itself wasn't enough and 4.0 isn't being highlighted as anything better either.

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Originally Posted by Oriens

Why offer constructive feedback when the fanboys on this forum and elsewhere simply say "go play something else".

It's sufficient to tell the devs XYZ sucked or ABC needs to change. It's their job to brainstorm and see how to improve or develop new content based on the community's like or dislike of current content. They know their technical limitations as to what can actually be implemented, not us.

They are aware that a lot of their content would not be touched with a 10 foot pole if they did not tie it to relic/anima requirements, free i270 accessories or i270 gear upgrades. From what was said in many live letters and else where is their content development cycle is basically 1 year long. Content is approved, planned, created and introduced with such a long development cycle for it to become irrelevant as soon as the next patch hits in 3-6 months. That is their mistake.

They have had all of stormblood to take FFXIV in the direction they wanted as 2.0 is behind them. The community has a right to feel like 3.0 in itself wasn't enough and 4.0 isn't being highlighted as anything better either.

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The thing is, these design ideas are not mistakes. Rather, they are why the game works in the first place. How would you recommend making content permanently relevant? Horizontal progression? That's been tried, and is fraught with major issues, not the least of which is that it stifles game growth. And frankly, it's just not practical for all content to be forever relevant. Do you really want to have to do all of 100+ dungeons in a few years?

Instead, content is relevant at the start, and there are incentives to play it enough for people to catch up. Right now anyone can queue for a low-level MSQ dungeon, and they will get into it in a reasonable amount of time. All it costs you is a daily roulette with a nice incentive. That's not bad design, that's excellent design.

But since you didn't give your suggestion on what would make it better, I'm forced to guess. Maybe you don't want horizontal progression at all. Maybe you want old content to just die, and thus not be required at all? Maybe the MSQ should just skip the dungeons after they're obsolete, so if you weren't there when the expansion came out, you never get to play the content. But you still have to do the quests? How does this work?

The problem is that your goals are not Square Enix's goals. Here are a few basic tenets of this game's design:

1.) Keep all content relevant enough that new players can clear it
2.) Give newer users a chance to be competitive with older users so they don't give up on the game
3.) Incentivize older users to stay subscribed and keep playing

Every complaint I've seen addresses #3, but ignores #1 and #2. Those are why we have the tomestone weekly cap, why roulettes exist, why dungeons are not super hard. If you change all those things willy-nilly, you're going to lose the player base.

I honestly think the system we have is among the best possible systems to address all three points above. It's ridiculous to just tell the devs to "make it better" when it's not at all clear how that can even be achieved. If they start changing things, they're liable to anger the many of us who like the current system, and there's no reason to believe the people who don't would be any happier either! If part of your player base is telling you things are fine, and the other half says they're not but offers no solutions, then you go with the half that's telling you what to do (i.e., what you're currently doing).

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Originally Posted by Ririta

People are pointing out exactly what they're tired of, though. Offering solutions is nice and all, but shouldn't be expected.

Personally I just want tem to stop with "weekly and daily" obligations.

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Nor should players whine if their ideas of fun not be implemented if they aren't willing to offer ideas. It goes both ways, after all. The devs aren't mind readers.

As for limitations. Those will always exist in MMOs because no development team can create content fast enough to last given how quickly people consume it nowadays. Even if they do loosen up on tomestones in some manner, allowing people to just farm it all to their hearts content means they have no incentive to stay 2-3 months down the road.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

As for limitations. Those will always exist in MMOs because no development team can create content fast enough to last given how quickly people consume it nowadays. Even if they do loosen up on tomestones in some manner, allowing people to just farm it all to their hearts content means they have no incentive to stay 2-3 months down the road.

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Thats whats happening anyway with raids going stale, and the weekly cap currently could even double or triple, and still not effect patch implementation. For example, I think with the current amount of jobs we have now, getting every piece of gear at the current weekly cap before it was raised recently, would take about 2 years to accomplish, before they nerf it. Thats a little extreme and unrealistic in my opinion...Its not even a wonder the 2 new jobs will be sharing gear with other jobs, because they know, its ludicrous. As far as horizontal progression goes, it could actually be used to incentivize people to run old content, but how the system is and will probably be for a while, i get that its just a pipedream to even bother and that much is understood. Changing the way things are currently doesnt effect new people joining at SB also, they never had to deal with the current system so it wouldnt/shouldnt effect them.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

1.) Keep all content relevant enough that new players can clear it
2.) Give newer users a chance to be competitive with older users so they don't give up on the game
3.) Incentivize older users to stay subscribed and keep playing

Every complaint I've seen addresses #3, but ignores #1 and #2. Those are why we have the tomestone weekly cap, why roulettes exist, why dungeons are not super hard. If you change all those things willy-nilly, you're going to lose the player base.

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I am pretty sure its either a lot of newer players dont know/read the OF, or if they do, like myself may not join/post because they feel they havent played long enough to post on here, with some brave few ive seen as of late being exceptions. Alot of these are assessments to their experience playing the game, and the reviews for the most part are positive. Thats telling and my point is the game does great pushing along giving progress, terrible fetch quests imo, but unlike games like neverwinter, you can teleport and thats hella nice. By endgame, thats when the tables turn. Thats where the veterans like alot of the number 4 group are most experienced with. The flavor didnt deviate much from HW besides artificially extending the period where eso terics(the true end game grind gear) was released. All because gordias. Thats it, thats the only reason. The relic grind when implemented was so arduous at that time, it couldve released with gordias and people still wouldnt have it finished before 3.1 when it was already irrelevant before it was released. All were saying is time things a little more easonably than last time. I understand their schedule has to be the way it is becaise its so tight, but giving raiders something for half a year to do, and midcore something to do half a year in between each other, is sort of like telling everyone to unsub after 3 months untill the next story or upgrade quest comes out.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Thats whats happening anyway with raids going stale, and the weekly cap currently could even double or triple, and still not effect patch implementation.

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Yes, it would. I illustrate in a previous thread, but to summarize using our current gear tiers, unlimited tomestones means people have no reason to even look at 250 gear. It's rendered entirely worthless because why deal with RNG for weaker gear or buy high MB prices for the crafted variant when you can just spam dungeons for a couple days? It further invalidates 24-man gear groups for precisely the same reason. There's an argument to be made increasing the tomestone cap per week on a permanent basis, but there will always be a cap. There has to be. As for the raid, it's become stale partly because their secondary content has been incredibly hit or miss throughout Heavensward. We wouldn't be feeling as much a burn if Diadem 2.0 didn't flop a second time. Granted, it still queues fairly consistently. A major issue has been making content that people actually want to do.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

There has to be. As for the raid, it's become stale partly because their secondary content has been incredibly hit or miss throughout Heavensward. We wouldn't be feeling as much a burn if Diadem 2.0 didn't flop a second time. Granted, it still queues fairly consistently. A major issue has been making content that people actually want to do.

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I feel Diadem 2.0 gets rather unfair treatment. It's definitely not great, but it's fun to do from time to time, the way this forum and reddit go on about it though you'd think it had personally visited every players house and punched them in the groin.

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Originally Posted by Oriens

It's sufficient to tell the devs XYZ sucked or ABC needs to change.

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Hardly.

If you do believe something sucked or needs to change, simply saying that does little good. Talk about what it was about XYZ that you thought sucked or the features in ABC you didn't like - that is usable information by the developers, particularly since it can lead to design decisions that actually reflect what the playerbase wants to see happen.

Simple example - "Greased Lightning makes Monk suck to play." Not particularly useful.

"Greased Lightning feels tough to keep up regularly in fights, which makes Monk suck to play." Actionable feedback.

You don't have to offer solutions, but offering up feedback regarding what it is you don't like (and always take time to figure out what it is about said feature you don't like) is significantly more useful than just saying it sucks or you don't like it.

Also, it should go without saying that there is a difference between something being broken or needing to be fixed and a player not liking it and wanting to see it change.

Own up to your opinions and preferences and give actionable feedback - you'll give better constructive feedback every time if you do.

After having the same three objectives foisted upon us in multiple events for 4 years, FATEs have become boring to play though.

Hunts are often broken by the zerg rush of players often overwhelming the monster with no strategy. The monster literally is unable to fight back, with multiple hit moves only targeting a limited amount of players.

The fact that there are only two dungeons to do in expert makes roulette something i actively avoid in some patches.

The stats are just all over the place, and need a change. I want parry and other defensive stats to mean something, and not just "slap it on the damage calculation".

And the patch doldrums. Honestly, is this intended?

10 more inventory space on backpack. Is this too small?
Edit: It's nice to get increased slots, but feels 10 wouldn't be enough, 15-20 would be better, but again, better than nothing I guess :)

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

10 more inventory space on backpack. Is this too small?
Edit: It's nice to get increased slots, but feels 10 wouldn't be enough, 15-20 would be better, but again, better than nothing I guess :)

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I believe this is +10 per page (two extra rows), so +40 total normal inventory, and +10 to each type of gear in the armoury. Would be nice if that also applied to retainers (would be +70 per, since they have 7 pages), but I assume that's not the case.

Also I feel like +10 is a missed opportunity. If they did +11 they could have each page remain square at 6x6 instead of going to 7x5 (or 5x7). I LIKE SQUARES. (and Enix)

I think I'd rather have had a glamour catalogue than 10 more inventory slots, but hopefully once they're happy with the expanded utility and the other UI elements they want to work on, they'll get right to work on said Glamour Catalogue.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I feel Diadem 2.0 gets rather unfair treatment. It's definitely not great, but it's fun to do from time to time, the way this forum and reddit go on about it though you'd think it had personally visited every players house and punched them in the groin.

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Admittedly, it's not terrible, just underwhelming imo. I feel it gets slagged mostly because the devs severely overhyped this redo only to make it FATE farming and add a RNG boss fight. Granted, it's a cool fight... just RNG.

Just watched the video from the benchmark threads. /sigh, opens wallet. Here ya go SE, take my money... is it June 20 yet?

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Originally Posted by Talraen

The thing is, these design ideas are not mistakes.. SNIPPED TO SHORTEN TEXT LIMITATION.

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You reply is exactly why the game sucks at 60. They keep tying gear and weapons to old content. I do not want to help new players grind their way through a dungeon I have been in 100s of times. Incentivize the roulettes more. Make the adventurer in need reward 50 times better than what it currently is. Stop making content a rehash of what we have already done before in an effort to support the new player base. There are plenty of new player friendly people and free companies who can fulfill that role. I actually do run the mentor roulette because to me that reward is actually worth it. You speak as if 1-50 is insanely difficult. It's not. This isn't FFXI.


In regards to horizontal gear progression: bring it! I actually disagree with you. This vertical design is what is making this game stagnant. People now expect better gear in a few months time. People do not put forth the effort to do more challenging content available since in 3-6 months they can run an easier dungeon and get something just as good or even better. (I'm guilty of that when it comes to gearing my alts)

I raid, I've leveled everything to cap. The only thing I really don't do is crafting (but I've leveled those, too). What 60 feels like outside of savage progression is: OK time to grind a currency and dive back into 6-18 month old content again! I give them props for POTD, but they bombed on Diadem 2.0. Treasure maps are fun. They were all over the place with the Alexander savage raiding arc. 3.0 extreme primals were fun, they messed up the rewards for Bismarck/Ravana IMO but that's about it. The MSQ 51-60 was great and but started to take a nosedive around 3.3/3.4. Everything feels rushed heading into 4.0 STORY wise while the reality for me is: stale, dead when I log in. There's really nothing for me to do aside make gil and make MGP. The people I play with either no longer play or are doing content they need to do to catch up (ex: leveling) Devs should take a page from WoW and have an awesome world event lasting the entire month before the new expansion hits, tying 3.0 and 4.0 together.