The dragon war and the Dragoon

Looking at it from story point a view I don't see this happening any time soon; if ever, in XIV. If I were a Dragon the last thing I'd want to partner up with is a person who is known for slaying Dragons.

It's not say it won't happen, but I wouldn't suggest holding your breath for this to show up either.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

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Best way to explain what I mean right now is: When I was a child I had a plushie toy that looked like a fox - but it obviously wasnt a fox. A better example would obviously me having an imaginery friend who looked like a fox, because I gave it that shape - that wouldnt have made it a real fox either though.

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It may not have been a real living fox, but it was still a fox made from whatever material it was made from. Just like Bahamut is just a bunch of pixels in this game and not really a primal or a dragon.

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Originally Posted by Stitches1974

It may not have been a real living fox, but it was still a fox made from whatever material it was made from.

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To add to this -

While Bahamut is made of and feeds on aether, considering who summoned him, I think it's safe to assume that he has the same appearance and powers as the real Bahamut, and probably language (don't remember the FCoB cutscenes very well orz).

Shinryu though... his whole existence puzzles me (people were crying out for Rhalgr as they died), but I still find it hard to not call him a dragon especially when the reason given for his form was Niddhog's eyes.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Think about it perhaps a growth system similar to the chocobo would work.

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The problem here is, there is no Chocobo growth system. Except the hours of waiting until you get your new race chocobo.
The companion Chocobos are already grown up and only need training.

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Originally Posted by Felis

The problem here is, there is no Chocobo growth system. Except the hours of waiting until you get your new race chocobo.
The companion Chocobos are already grown up and only need training.

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You just made me think of a horrible, horrible idea.


Tamagotchi-style chocobo raising.

in the lore of dragon war the dragon are shape by what exp this change who they are as in outer appearance. because of the dragonsong war they where shape by hatred and revenge for Isgard. a New age has come an Dragoon must learn to evolve with it. in this dragoons could in sense become beacon of this new an age where dragoon and dragon work and fight side by side. 1000 year ago Isgard was a place where dragoon and dragon fought as one. the only way truely bring end to the dragonsong war is to seek to return to that. for dragoon to become a becean of that age they must once more work side by side with dragon to show to people Isgard that they ready put past behind and because in same way one could say that dragon themselves must also work to put the past behind them. a Dragon life span is long then humans or of races yet the memory they share with they dragoon could be beacon of that age that shape them to move beyond the dragonsong war

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

1000 year ago Isgard was a place where dragoon and dragon fought as one.

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The first Dragoon appeared after the betrayal. No Dragoon existed before the war. The first thing for a peacefull live with dragons would be to remove the last relic of the war, the Dragoon job.

or reforge dragoon in fire to work with dragoon give them a new meaning to role of dragoon

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

or reforge dragoon in fire to work with dragoon give them a new meaning to role of dragoon

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Yeah, great idea... excuse my sarcasm here, but what you are saying is: We have this job for 4 years now, that people obviously like to play and that works a certain way - and now we should throw that out and rework it in a totally different style to fit the wishes of people who basically want to play FFXI and not FFXIV...? Do you not remember how pissed bards were when they got their job changed? And by changed I mean WM - not a complete rework of the job to fit a pet in.

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Originally Posted by Felis

The problem here is, there is no Chocobo growth system. Except the hours of waiting until you get your new race chocobo.
The companion Chocobos are already grown up and only need training.

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Hmm that is the choco for racing I'm talking about your Choco companion you get at level 30 that you raise through EXP. Same concept just as an evolution type that perhaps randomly appears or something of that sort. While I love chocobos I rather have a wyvern :P

Dev team seemingly hates the idea of pet classes so DRG the dragonslayer getting dragon battle pidgeon is not likely.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Dev team seemingly hates the idea of pet classes so DRG the dragonslayer getting dragon battle pidgeon is not likely.

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Hence the business supply and demand. Some of us hate jump potions but hey they are making them anyways. Hell if they added that function as a wyvern companion I would pay additional.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Hence the business supply and demand. Some of us hate jump potions but hey they are making them anyways. Hell if they added that function as a wyvern companion I would pay additional.

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Devs support jump potions because they know the playerbase will throw their money at them. Why say no to that?

i hate jump potion because is cause players to have no skill at play they job or role in dungeon or raids. I rather have dragoon with wyrevn over a jump potion. the return of jump potion are worse because you have players that jump to lvl whatever then they get bored faster then they leave. because they bored

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

i hate jump potion because is cause players to have no skill at play they job or role in dungeon or raids. I rather have dragoon with wyrevn over a jump potion.

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people already have no skill at this game jump potion wont change that

each boss of dungeon and raids are different and require different tactical and way to attack said boss and handle aggro and boss machinac to say there no skills only prove one isn't quite sure what he know what he talk about

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Devs support jump potions because they know the playerbase will throw their money at them. Why say no to that?

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Two main reasons;

First, I support the one skipping the story line that is fine just to be able to play with your friends. However it may cause people not to enjoy the game to the fullest.

Second, the game already has a lot of players who don't know their roles properly do to fate grinding and PotD and avoid mechanics. Not having players go through the grind is very irritating at times. Specially on raids.

Players are welcome to play however they want, but avoiding the rise of players who lack experience is something that should be avoided to be somewhat fair to the current player base that actually enjoy the game. I understand the whole FC concept and building parties so yes that is an alternative. Some of us like to play alone and I understand is a risk we take going into queue solo, however lets not feed the fire if we can avoid it. That or at least lock the number of potions a player can use it

With that why not add a companion other than chocobo?? I'm sure people who want it bad enough would be willing pay as well.

In FFXI, Dragoons were the most elite warriors of San'Doria and they went into battle with Wyverns that carried the brand of the Holy Crest. In order to become a Dragoon, one must needed to find a Wyvern or Dragon who carried the Holy Crest and form a Spirit Link with the Dragon, linking their souls together. In this regard, Dragoons of FFXI were not Dragon Slayers, they were Dragon Tamers. They protected Dragons, charged into battle with them, and occasionally slayed any Dragon who did not carry the Holy Crest branding (or Dragons that lost their Holy Crest).


There's no lore reason for FFXIV Dragoons to tame Dragons. FFXI Dragons were powerful creatures but aside from Wyrms (the equivalent of FFXIV's Celestial Dragons), they were mostly unintelligent but powerful lizards. FFXIV Dragons by comparison are almost all extremely intelligent, wise, and long-lived. They would never form a pact, especially not with the type of warrior who's job description and origins come from slaying their kin (in order to officially become a Dragoon of Ishgard, you must slay a Dravanian).


That said, I think many abilities DRG will get in 4.0 will involve DRG learning skills from Dragons. We have plenty of Jumps and Polearm skills, but there are several traditional Dragoon skills from previous FF games that involve "Breaths" that we haven't gotten. One could argue Geirskogul is reminiscent of "Holy Breath" from Final Fantasy Tactics/Final Fantasy Dimensions. In Final Fantasy Dimensions, there were spells a Dragoon could learn besides Jump that included: Fire/Thunder/Blizzard/Holy/Healing Breaths, Lancet (summon forth a spectral dragon that slashed the target, giving you a % of HP/MP back based on damage), Dragon Spirit (kills you but revivies/heals your party's HP/MP, inb4 drgfloortankjokes). There's also spells/skills that Freya from FF9 had that were Dragon based. Reis' Wind was AoE Regen but could be changed to be more like a Mantra-esque ability or a weaker Goad. We won't get Cherry Blossom because Chaos Thrust is already the FFXIV equivalent of that, having a similar name to both Cloud's skill in FFT and Freya's skill in FF9. But yeah we're more likely to get our own Breath or Dragon-esque skills in 4.0. Healing Breath would be cool to be used like with Second Wind, or on other people. like a 3 minute recast 500 potency oGCD cure.

Would quit dragoon and this game if this fragmented, half thought out idea ever happened. Sure, maybe we could have dragons as a companion to level up, much like a chocobo. The class doesn't need changing, least of all in a direction that takes them away from the front of combat into handling a clumsy pet. I'd prefer if there were no pet classes to be honest, at least not in the form they exist now.

You mentioned a new time where dragons and humans work together, etc... it's literally been like... a month or two in game time since the end of the Dragon Song war. Lore wise, the Dragoon job itself was made out of necessity to combat Dragons. I can't think of any reason why they'd focus on fighting alongside dragons any time soon.

...just imagine this:

Dragonmama: "So, you want to take my little baby to an adventure? Mmh... I dont know - he cant even hunt or defend himself. Tell me a bit about you! What is that weapon you're carrying for example?"

Dragoon: "Well, ehm, that would be a spear..."

Dragonmama: "Oh, for spearfishing?"

Dragoon: "Well, actually, to be perfectly honest... we developed this weapon to..." *mutter*

Dragonmama: "Sorry, I couldnt understand you!"

Dragoon: "...to kill dragons..."

Dragonmama: "Ah, yeah, I thought it looked a lot like the weapon that killed my mate 200 years ago... did you kill him?"

Dragoon: "No, that was my grandfather, I just carry his weapon and spend my whole life honoring his legacy!"

Dragonmama: "...and now you want to take my baby with you? Carrying the weapon that killed his father?"

Dragoon: "Well, I thought we would be friends now that I killed Nidhogg... and his mate... and countless other dragons... The only thing I know is how to slay dragons, now I want to see how they live!"

Dragonmama: "So, where would you take my baby? Over the river there to teach him how to spearfish?"

Dragoon: "Oh, I was actually thinking of going into the far east next... you know, Doma and such. Fighting another war since I'm not allowed to kill more dragons..."

Dragonmama: "Thank you for coming in, we will consider your application..."

Or, to have the shorter version with the WoL as dragoon:

Dragonmama: "So, tell me about yourself!"

WoL: "Well, I'm the Nidhogg-slayer! Killed him, his mate, his children - everyone basically."

Dragonmama: "And out of the countless (...okay, granted: 13) weapons you could have picked, you choose the one that killed my mate?"

WoL: "...I realise now that that was pretty tasteless - but I've taken several beating on the head recently... you know, constantly fighting and stuff... it would be a wonderful place for your baby to grow up!"


On a more serious note: if the devs would have wanted the dragoon to be a pet-class there could have been work arounds withe the current lore - for example: the wyvern-mount you can get used to be friends with a knight 500 years ago and is so loyal that he agrees to serve you now.
But they choose a different path for dragoon and it would be quite weird to rework the entire job now. I'm not sure if you guys are aware of the fact that it wouldnt be as simple as adding in a little dragon pet but instead would require the job to be built up from the ground again - every skill would need adjusment etc. etc.
More chocobo-like companions for everyone woudl certainly be cool - I'd love to have my Fenrir or any other mount fight alongside me! But thats a different topic on the one hand and something that was already suggested to the devs (with the basic answer "That would require a lot of work and we rather focus on other things). You can always try again to pitch them that idea by opening a thread specific to that!
But for this thread... accept that the FFXIV-dragoon is not the FFXI one...

We all know this isn't FFXI no one is denying that it is an idea that it can be incorporated. As for t he dialog...wow 10 points for creativity and 10 points for sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

accept that the FFXIV-dragoon is not the FFXI one...

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...just imagine this:

Dragonmama: Tell me son of man why should we join your cause? Have you forgotten our hatred towards your kind.

Dragoon: "We neither expect forgiveness nor compassion for our father of the past, however if we are to change the course of our children and break the bonds of hatred we must start some were. We seek not to enslave or use you to for our personal means, we seek your guidance and alliance to face a common foe. "

Dragonmama: "Oh, you speak true as representative of man, but a foolish one It would take more than words to convince us.?"

Dragoon: "So I ask you to judge be my actions and help at a whim when you choose to, If I fail I will forfeit my life with no struggle and upon this blade a blood oath would be formed..."

Dragonmama: "Interesting child of man, it is true you have proven your worth, Yet it is not for I to decide. speak with my children for their fate is theirs alone.!"

Dragoon: "I thank you for the audience."

Dragonmama: "Be warned son of man, a blood oath is not one of mere flesh and blood, for it binds the soul."

At work so not much time this is more of a whim.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

We all know this isn't FFXI no one is denying that it is an idea that it can be incorporated. As for t he dialog...wow 0 points for creativity and 10 points for sarcasm.

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You may have noticed that I'm all in favour of your idea to add more chocobo-like companions, but you might have been to blinded with hatred (typical dragoon, really) to respond to that at all - thats okay, after your post history here, I expected nothing else from you.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

As much as I liked my little Wuffi in FFXI, FFXIV is a different game and I don't feel the little dragonling would add much as a class feature, especially as it would likely mean a nerf to the class's personal output.

Now, that said? They've mentioned possible having other options for companions besides our chocobos. Partnering with a young dragon to adventure sounds like it'd be grand. Perhaps Kal Myhk for those who've done his questline?

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http://replycandy.com/wp-content/upl...achine-Gun.jpg

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Originally Posted by Vidu

You may have noticed that I'm all in favour of your idea to add more chocobo-like companions, but you might have been to blinded with hatred (typical dragoon, really) to respond to that at all - thats okay, after your post history here, I expected nothing else from you.

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Ok so a debate on what I thought would an interesting conversation among peers seems to have taken a turn for the worse. Typical of a Dragoon? really that is your response.


For one, I'm not blinded by hatred, if anything I see your perspective and at least can give various possibilities that can be incorporated. I don't work for SE, however as an educated individual I can at least suggest some things that may work for the job as perhaps something down the line. While your story was touching in a negative way and sarcastic humor, the idea expressed is never a form of anger, it is a sign of creativity. While it may not suit everyone, the job doesn't need to be remade. IT IS AN EXTENSION.

As for expectations, I never did care for others thoughts about me. I tend to lead rather than follow so please don't flatter your self. You nor I are that special.

Also Note I meant to give you a 10 on creativity not a zero.

I have a better approach, and I know it's better because it has nothing to do with XI.

The lore-based theme of the Dragoon in XIV has been two-fold: to fight dragons using a portion of draconic power, and maintain control over that power so that it won't consume them. With the Dragonsong War over with, that first part is no longer as relevant as it once was, meaning that the future of the Dragoon might be one of two things.

1) Somehow in Stormblood, we find more dragons to kill (or at least more than just a certain recent primal). Somewhere along the way would be some newfound purpose for the Dragoon, resulting in potentially new approaches to swing and stab while containing the inner dragon.

2) With peace between Dravanians and the spear-shakers that were trying to kill them, perhaps they would have something to teach to those who would manipulate their power? Instead of struggling to control such power, maybe dragons could teach Dragoons to be in harmony with that power--not to fight to control, but to let go more and fight with it. Now this could technically work in the OP's favor by having that power manifested into an indirect form, but a more reasonable (and likely more favorable) form would be as a transformation. Something similar to Nidhogg's "human" form in The Final Steps of Faith, albeit slightly less corrupted.

I have suppect Kazrah one is the estinen will take over the dragoon trainings much knowledge was learn by estinen when he and Niddhog share body. i love see dragon companion. Estinen the cost was very great said knowledge yet it was still gain on dragon ways i suppect estinen has handing up his spear to be more a teacher now then a dragoon

Not taking either side on this, but lore-wise, wouldn't it have to be obtained in the Stormblood job quests? I mean, imagine a DRG going to Ishgard the first time with their little buddy, you'd be called a heretic! Plus it'd kinda be strange that their army of DRGs would have dragon pets too.

Sure, they could change reasoning, but meh.

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Originally Posted by Violyre

Not taking either side on this, but lore-wise, wouldn't it have to be obtained in the Stormblood job quests? I mean, imagine a DRG going to Ishgard the first time with their little buddy, you'd be called a heretic! Plus it'd kinda be strange that their army of DRGs would have dragon pets too.

Sure, they could change reasoning, but meh.

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Was thinking more for the after math. Kind of a reward for completing Heavensward

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

I have suppect Kazrah one is the estinen will take over the dragoon trainings much knowledge was learn by estinen when he and Niddhog share body. i love see dragon companion. Estinen the cost was very great said knowledge yet it was still gain on dragon ways i suppect estinen has handing up his spear to be more a teacher now then a dragoon

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And then there's what Yoshi said about Estinien....

When asked about the former Azure Dragoon in an interview a while ago, Yoshi stated that he wanted Estinein to join the Scions, but he figured that it would take a while of warming up for both parties.

Then there's still the issue of wanting the pet. The key issue is individuality, meaning that if Dragoon were to have a pet, it would still have to be different from other pet jobs. Furthermore, it would require fixing the pet system, which still seems a long way off.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

2) With peace between Dravanians and the spear-shakers that were trying to kill them, perhaps they would have something to teach to those who would manipulate their power? Instead of struggling to control such power, maybe dragons could teach Dragoons to be in harmony with that power--not to fight to control, but to let go more and fight with it. Now this could technically work in the OP's favor by having that power manifested into an indirect form, but a more reasonable (and likely more favorable) form would be as a transformation. Something similar to Nidhogg's "human" form in The Final Steps of Faith, albeit slightly less corrupted.

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Given how the Lv50-60 DRG quests ended this would be a logical next step for the job imo

though the form estinien toke did remind me of Legend of dragoon in some ways

i love seen partner of sort for the dragoon to forge a new path for the spear shakers. the war is over it time forge a new path could the dragoon be the one show the rest isgarde that dragon and isgarders can live in harmony is possible and even work in harmony is also possible. younger dragon love to adventure. Note the younger dragon are about 35 in human years

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

Note the younger dragon are about 35 in human years

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Yes and BABIES by their defintion. Remember Kahl Myk and his brothers? They're not able to hunt for themself yet - they cant kill a goat and have you do it. What good are they in a fight against a primal? And what are you asking of the dragonmother there? To give a person who slaughtered dragons just a year ago her baby? Like her actual baby?

I agree that we should move on from the war now - but as I said before: Taking a baby onto adventures, far way from its mom and kin, as the person who killed many of their ancestors might not be the best way.
Besides: Adding a pet would require a total rework of the job. You cant just add a pet at level 62 without adjusting the normal damage output of the dragoon. So how would that work? A constant damage-debuff on the dragoon while the pet is out? Having a pet would also completly change the way dragoon is played and the skill asked of the player.
I remind you again about how pissed bards were when they were turned into caster-classes all out of sudden with HW - so now you want to change a melee-class to a pet-class? When it makes little sense lorewise and no sense gameplaywise? And why - because you still want to play FFXI and not FFXIV...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

When it makes little sense lorewise and no sense gameplaywise? And why - because you still want to play FFXI and not FFXIV...

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I feel like this line needs to be placed in massive font whenever someone says an idea's better because it's from FFXI (*coughsamuraitankscough*).

It's one thing to remember the past, but that also requires remembering why it's the past and not the present.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Besides: Adding a pet would require a total rework of the job. You cant just add a pet at level 62 without adjusting the normal damage output of the dragoon. So how would that work? A constant damage-debuff on the dragoon while the pet is out? Having a pet would also completly change the way dragoon is played and the skill asked of the player.

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The only difference is that dragoon's new weaponskills (if any) wouldn't be as strong as other jobs'. The potency per minute will go up in the expansion, there's no reason to change the base.

As for the gameplay, they just have to be smart and make it target the same things as the dragoon and react to your weaponskills instead of binding everything like the mess that is summoner.

Just give Dragoons dragon blood to drink, so they can transform themself into dragons.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

The only difference is that dragoon's new weaponskills (if any) wouldn't be as strong as other jobs'. The potency per minute will go up in the expansion, there's no reason to change the base.

As for the gameplay, they just have to be smart and make it target the same things as the dragoon and react to your weaponskills instead of binding everything like the mess that is summoner.

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Okay, let me rephrase it: You either overhaul the dragoon job completly or give it a little perma-dot in form of a dragon-pet, that you dont have to manage, so that it basically becomes just a decorative element on the screen - I mean, putting it like this the idea has a certain appeal, because that would mean that SB-dragoons can be really bad and we would still see them deal damage, thanks to the pet-AI! (Sadly I'm not sure right now if thats meant sarcastic or not...)
Might be easier if they just allow us to take minions into fights again...

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Originally Posted by Felis

Just give Dragoons dragon blood to drink, so they can transform themself into dragons.

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Why would a DRG want to transform to a Dragon that would lower DPS when the point is to INCREASE Dps or ad temp healing capability?

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Why would a DRG want to transform to a Dragon that would lower DPS when the point is to INCREASE Dps or ad temp healing capability?

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A pet would weaken the Dragoon's power

But if the Dragoon himself transform to a dragon, he can have access to powerfull breath attacks without sharing his power with a pet. The transformation can hold 45 secounds with 5 minute cool down.

Most XI quirks will never spread to rest of series. If XIV kept the old director instead of Yoshida then there was more chance of that, but for jobs he wasn't going to bring any classic jobs like DRG at all, it would've stayed Lancer class.

have a pet would not low the dps or raise it mind you. through expansion the job are get more powerful are they not. for storm blood it only going to increase all jobs.

the one thing SE isn't doing in ffxiv is pet jobs the complex. It like the devs themselves are to scare to balance out the jobs or aren't willing. it can be frustating if they did job like beast master they got awesome beast that beast masters could command have as pets but no beast master ether