Machinist extinction in 4.0?

What's gonna happen if SE removes the RNG proc system in 4.0 ?
Will it attract more ppl to play ?
or
The already-main mch will complain about losing its aesthetics ?

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Originally Posted by Freyt

Never knew there was so much heat on Machinist. I just got through the 3.0 story with Machinist and by the end of it I felt like I had a fairly solid grasp. Sure there are some aspects of it that I think could be streamlined, but I don't really think it's so bad.

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There has been heat on MCH since release of 3.0. Heck on release of 3.0 it was considered the weakest Job in the game and certain hate to it for "slowing down" dungeon runs due to being the lowest DPS job until they buffed the Job later.

Despite the Buff the main issue people have with MCH has been the RNG mechanic on the basic 123 combo as it is a very double edge sword once ammo is on cooldown. If player is lucky they can maintain a decent DPS until Ammo is no longer on cooldown but if unlucky they end up performing the lost damage compared to all DPS Job until the ammo is back up.

What they do with Machinist in 4.0 will certainly affect this Job at max level content more than the other Jobs due to its current position in 3.X era. Though we are still 3 months away from 4.0 release and probably only 2 months away from the 4.0 Job Skills and Artifact Armor Trailer

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

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It just a idea that goes back to the original concept of Machinist which was the modify the Gun for different gameplay styles. From what was said before what we got in 3.0 MCH was probably going to the AST of the DPS job involving different Weapon Modifications for different combat styles. Of course that was scrapped and we got this MCH due to the original design been too ambitious and they didn't have enough time to finish it.

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

What's gonna happen if SE removes the RNG proc system in 4.0 ?
Will it attract more ppl to play ?
or
The already-main mch will complain about losing its aesthetics ?

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The majority would probably be more happy the RNG is gone on Machinist considering it is the RNG Mechanic that people consider the Primary issue with the Job thus the low played population.

It is a very out of control mechanic that leaves a lot on chance when the ammo is on cooldown.

I doubt it. Yes, a lot of people will leave their current job for RDM/SAM in the beginning before staying or returning to their 2.0/3.0 job, but I don't think the current crop of MCHs are playing MCH because of a lack of options. The folks that were going to bolt from the job permanently are probably already playing another DPS. My guess is that MNK/DRG/BLM/SMN are going to be the hardest hit by RDM and SAM in the long run.

Personally I don't think MCH was the weakest job in 3.0, it was AST. People just didn't figure out how to play MCH yet back in the day. Even after guides came out for the jobs, people consider MCH to be the most complicated job till today.

Sure all new jobs got buffed at some point and MCH buff made it preferable over BRD (If you guys remember the days when no one wanted a BRD). Then BRD got buffed to balance both ranged roles.

People have cleared A4S with DRK and MCH. AST on the other hand was not necessary. (SCH/WHM) was still optimal over (SCH/AST).

Also MCH is not good for 20s only. A very good MCH can top charts or have very minimal difference to other DPs at their best (100-150 difference).

Personally, I don't want MCH changes to make it a clone of any other job. But changes are welcome :)

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Originally Posted by Yeol

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I actually find Machinist to be the most mind numbingly easiest Job to play in this game as it is more 123 button focused than the other jobs.

Only time a player would have to go off pushing a 1, 12, or 123 combo is every 30 seconds to refill Lead and Hot shot then back to 123 combo while weaving Reload, Quick reload, Guass Round, Ricochet, and damage buffs. Then slap on Wildfire here and there for extra damage.

MCH is certainly a Weaving Heavy Job but it is also one of the most 123 combo focus jobs in this game compared to other jobs.

The charm I find when playing MCH is the weaving because it is like a Dance. Once you get the feeling for that dance you just naturally weave skills together for a easy flow of attacks step by step. It reach a point that eventually you won't even see the Reload and Quick reload animation as you weave together skills during the 1, 12, and 123 combo.

I actually had a few times when people ask me why I don't load ammo using Reload and Quick reload because they could not see the Reload and Quick Reload animation as I was weaving together skills. Of course I told them I have when I am weaving together attacks and they notice the ammo buff right after.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

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I also find MCH easy and fun because I main it :P but if you ask those who don't main it (As you read from some posts) They find it complicated.
Even if you search about it online you'll find the same results.

It is probably because you go from 2.5 - 1.5 - cast - no cast - instant and stance dancing. I like to keep my hands and mind busy is why I main this job.

Machinist to me feels like a class that requires more technical knowledge than most, a large portion of their damage comes from their opener and burst rotations around their buff timers. Considering we all know by now that the vast majority of the community doesn't know what an opener even is, that shuts off a big portion of the playerbase in terms of accessibility. The RNG just exacerbates that even further.

It also doesn't help that there's a perception that the class is way too similar to Bard mechanically. This was made especially clear during 3.2-3.3, where BRD players were encouraged to swap to MCH to be more effective during that raid tier. When Bard got buffed and we went into 3.4, I imagine many players that played MCH during the previous raid tier simply went back to Bard.

As someone that runs roulettes solo every day, I'm lucky if I run into even ONE Machinist in a week. Hell, the last time I saw one in an EX dungeon run was during the very first day of 3.5 (my very first run of Sohm Al HM - which somehow ended up being a 12 minute speedrun that I've yet to replicate).

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

The charm I find when playing MCH is the weaving because it is like a Dance.

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Nice way to put it.
For me,If Monk represents Waltz dance then Mch probably represents Tap dance.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

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The Bard and Machinist comparision can partly blamed on how Bard was in 2.0. In 2.0 bard was the most mindless easy class of the game to play as with little to no thought required to play. Of course you could still tell even today which Bard just mindlessly play Bard and those who put thought into their job as bard by if they use their Song or not during certain team setups.

Now Bard requires some thinking into their gameplay since they need to consider the 1.5 second charge for majority of their skills whiel also maintaining their Condition damage.

Machinist suffers less on this with GB on since only 3 skills should be on 1.5 second charge while everything else is still instant cast thus making MCh more mobile than Bard now.

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

Nice way to put it.
For me,If Monk represents Waltz dance then Mch probably represents Tap dance.

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Basically how I would describe it considering if you put together the 123 skills with weave and reload in between it sounds like a step dance.

Though it gets annoying when the dance reach a "1, weave, 1, weave, 1, weave, Quick Reload, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1" phase due to bad luck during Reload Skill cooldown

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Originally Posted by Aamalthea

I want to be like Merlwyb SO BAD.

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Think about this now I would have prefered a Gun Mage Job over a Dual Gunner Job or the Machinist. There is just something interesting when you combine Guns and Magic together for a single Job but sadly FF series don't have a Gun Mage Job.

Plenty of Chemical, Tech, and natural Gun Skill Gunner Jobs but no Gun Mage Job yet. FFX-2 Gun Mage does not count since it was just the game's Blue Mage.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

It took me ALL of heavensward to learn how to play machinist............
That's how strict this job is and why it needs more simplifying than any class. If Yoshida thinks black mage became too complex with enochain he should really try out machinist and find out how high the focus one needs to play a machinist is.

Out of all the classes I've played with mch my eyes are 99% of the time on the hotbars. I can't look away from them because the moment I do the rotation and buffs will ruin the dps numbers by a lot. I know that's true for a lot of jobs but for mch it's bad...if you mess up the rotation and end up with dead (no proc) rotations you're in for a bad time.

At the moment I can do a lot of damage and keep up with other dps, but again...it took me 2 years to actually keep up with other dps classes. It needs a lot of simplifying.

Out of my fc/linkshells I can honestly say I only know 3 people that play the class in a real way. It's too rare.
The way to fix mch is just to make it simpler like they did with ARR summoner to HW summoner. Also maybe remove the rng procs or remove hotshot or something. There's just too many things a mch needs to prepare (hotshot, blood for blood, hawk's eye, the dot skill, raging strikes).

Monk has to keep up as many things but they don't deal with rng.......

Also I hope they add a dual gun stance for mch....I want to be like merlwyb T_T
Make it like enochain, a limited time thing where you can use 2 guns

Either way I hope they just make all the preparing for mch simpler and the reloading timer less strict, maybe decrease the reload skill cooldowns.

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Bard main here. Picked up Machinist, practiced it for a few weeks; can now do all content, Savage and Extremes included comfortably on my Machinist also. The class has a few quirks (like stance-dancing outside ogcd/dot windows, or timing your Wildfires), but I think this is overstating the complexity of the class. With Reload and Quick Reload, the Machinist already has quite a lot of control over the RNG procs. Aside from watching out for the RNG procs, it's not really that different from any other class timing their cooldowns. Therefore, I don't really find myself watching the hotbars any more than on my other classes. Albeit, Bard gameplay is somewhat similar and I'm already used to side-eyeing for constant Bloodletter procs which may have helped with the transition.

Machinist can seem intimidating at first, but it's not really that bad. In fact, it's quite a lot of fun if you enjoy fast-paced gameplay that does not follow an entirely scripted rotation. I'd rather not see the class get simplified from its current state.

First time posting on forums, but I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents as an unfortunate MCH main.

A little back story: I first mained BRD but switched to MCH maybe a year after HW for raiding utility purposes. I tried to level MCH first before any idea of switching for raid utility though. But I had to push myself to level MCH past 53, because looking at the skills, I just told myself, "...Dis is BRD. :I I don't need another one."

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

It took me ALL of heavensward to learn how to play machinist............
That's how strict this job is and why it needs more simplifying than any class. If Yoshida thinks black mage became too complex with enochain he should really try out machinist and find out how high the focus one needs to play a machinist is.

Out of all the classes I've played with mch my eyes are 99% of the time on the hotbars. I can't look away from them because the moment I do the rotation and buffs will ruin the dps numbers by a lot. I know that's true for a lot of jobs but for mch it's bad...if you mess up the rotation and end up with dead (no proc) rotations you're in for a bad time.

At the moment I can do a lot of damage and keep up with other dps, but again...it took me 2 years to actually keep up with other dps classes. It needs a lot of simplifying.

Out of my fc/linkshells I can honestly say I only know 3 people that play the class in a real way. It's too rare.
The way to fix mch is just to make it simpler like they did with ARR summoner to HW summoner. Also maybe remove the rng procs or remove hotshot or something. There's just too many things a mch needs to prepare (hotshot, blood for blood, hawk's eye, the dot skill, raging strikes).

Monk has to keep up as many things but they don't deal with rng.......

Also I hope they add a dual gun stance for mch....I want to be like merlwyb T_T
Make it like enochain, a limited time thing where you can use 2 guns

Either way I hope they just make all the preparing for mch simpler and the reloading timer less strict, maybe decrease the reload skill cooldowns.

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I pretty much agree with most of what s/he said here. I spend more time watching my hotbar as a MCH than any other job. I have a love/dislike relationship with the job. I love playing it for raiding, but I will never touch it for casual content ever. And after my group has cleared a raid over and over again, I'm just like, "Can I go BRD now?"

I guess it's because of the complexity of it. BRD, to me, is very simple (don't know if I think that way, because I've played it for so long or what). So if I don't want to think as hard, I just don't play MCH.

But to answer OP's question, I don't think MCH will fade away. I think the number of players will practically stay the same. We also don't know what they'll do with the job for SB just yet. As a main, I'm really hoping they give MCH some love. The RNG really doesn't bother me that much; Quick Reload is nice. But the animations are DULL. And yes, there's too many buttons. Numerous times, I've told my group, "Guys. I just hit a button, and I have no idea which one. :D"

Also, MCH suffers from torso/pelvis dislocation and awkwardness just like BRD does. Minor (and hilarious) thing, but it's still awkward.

Forgot to say: Would be cool if MCH actually did more with machines other than just placing a turret down and letting it do its thing. Giant robot buddy, anybody? No? Just me? Okay.

Really good discussion here.

As for me if they just drop hotshot that would go a long way to making MCH fun. It's incredibly redundant. We already have to prebuff blood for blood/raging/hawk's eye and wildfire (when it's there). So all this pre-buffing gets really tedious when you throw in hotshot.

Hotshot has no business being there. We already have to use gauss barrel and the buffs I mentioned above.

What say you machinists? Would you be ok with completely removing hotshot and giving its potency to the main "shot" skills by default or maybe to the ammo?

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

What say you machinists? Would you be ok with completely removing hotshot and giving its potency to the main "shot" skills by default or maybe to the ammo?

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I'd be happy with just adding potency to the skills in place of Hot Shot.

I'd also be happy with being able to manually detonate Wildfire before the 15 seconds are up and just keeping the cooldown it would have had.

Sometimes, I mistime my cooldowns and place Wildfire too late (or too early), and it detonates while the boss is invulnerable, and I'm just like, "hhhhhhhhhh maaaii deeeeppss" With Zurvan, if I don't place that Wildfire, at least, 1 second after it's come off CD, it'll have 2 seconds left on its duration by the time Zurvan dips and adds show up. :c

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

So with the introduction of new Jobs, additions/adjustments to current Jobs, and Machinist current state of being the lowest played Job in the Game do you think Machinist Job players may become extinct or near extinctin 4.0?

Thus players would only see Machinist just because they want to level it and then drop it faster than a crazy ex once max level.

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Whats a machinist? wasn't it extinct already on patch 3.1?

I think MCH needs more support tools because didn't they say MCH was supposed to be made into a support/dps, and that is why the DPS is lowest out of everyone? It does not seem to be made up though the limited support they do offer. My friend was on BLM (and to my understanding is one of the higher single target dps) trying to do light farm. even in a1s, they wiped once due to lack of DPS, once the 2MCH left it went fast again.

So point is there is a few issues here:
BRD and MCH need different gear sets, or... add more options then 1 item so people can pick the needed sub stat, or balance the sub stats completely while getting rid of accuracy (with only 2 sub stats and 1 gear limit, like only having one script option, means there is no room for accuracy to be in the game, it is too hard on healers, and accuracy matters in such a small amount of content, why have it?)
lower complexity or give tutorials on it.
remove the rng aspect on combos, dps seems to be too low when you are unlucky, make ammo just a damage buff.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

Really good discussion here.

As for me if they just drop hotshot that would go a long way to making MCH fun. It's incredibly redundant. We already have to prebuff blood for blood/raging/hawk's eye and wildfire (when it's there). So all this pre-buffing gets really tedious when you throw in hotshot.

Hotshot has no business being there. We already have to use gauss barrel and the buffs I mentioned above.

What say you machinists? Would you be ok with completely removing hotshot and giving its potency to the main "shot" skills by default or maybe to the ammo?

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but you need hot shot to have respectable dps..

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Originally Posted by Alael

Whats a machinist? wasn't it extinct already on patch 3.1?

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Nope. 3.2 arrived and we overtook the BRDs. But nice attempt at being funny.

(P.S. We're also the best ranged in PvP) ;)

You want to know what would get me to play a machinist? Fix the sound effect of the gun. It sounds pitiful. Sounds like a popgun when they are called muskets and carbines in game. Give it a sharp supersonic crack with some base after effect. Only grenade launchers and mortars should sound subsonic and even then when they impact its going to make up for it.

Visually I like MCH. But audibly it lacks. WoW had this problem too. But I was able to fix it with an addon there. I can't fix that here. Either let me swap the sound myself or fix it. Poofs and Pangs don't do the MCH justice.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

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Well lore wise the machinist is not even using real bullets nor anything involving Gunpowder but instead are using artifical bullets made out of Mana created by the Pack they carry around. The Aetherconverter pack is more than just to carry Turrets around as it is a portable unlimited ammo pack that turns mana into the bullets Machinist shoot out of their guns.

We're not using anything involving Gunpowder like the NPCs but instead are basically just firing Mana Laser Bullets created by the Aetherconverter pack we carry around.

The Aetherconverter Pack is also the source of Machinist's Unlimited Turret supply as it basically reconstructs the Turrets for the Machinist if it is destroyed passively using mana it passively absorbs.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

We're not using anything involving Gunpowder like the NPCs but instead are basically just firing Mana Laser Bullets created by the Aetherconverter pack we carry around.

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That's still no excuse for a gun to sound like there's supposed to be a spittoon sound after the shot. If anything, it should be a laser sound.

The only thing that will make me quit MCH is if they over simplify it. I like complexities of the job, and I love having to play at my best to be able to pull the numbers.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

So with the introduction of new Jobs, additions/adjustments to current Jobs, and Machinist current state of being the lowest played Job in the Game do you think Machinist Job players may become extinct or near extinctin 4.0?

Thus players would only see Machinist just because they want to level it and then drop it faster than a crazy ex once max level.

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IIRC, MCH is the strongest DPS right now. I don't think it's going anywhere

I hope so !
Maybe SE would rework the class then and finally give us a dual guns job :D

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

IIRC, MCH is the strongest DPS right now. I don't think it's going anywhere

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Isn't it a little bit too RNG based to be the strongest ?
Pretty much like the AST, when the Gods are not with you.... :/

I don't think the RNG aspect of the job's procs have that huge an effect on things as much as proper and effective skill weaving in a rotation does. I mean, sure it can be a bit annoying at times, but if say, the difference between a proc Clean Shot and a regular one was so vast, the job would truly be at a loss to not be a little more consistent.

I don't know why people are thinking RNG is such a big element to MCH's performance. If you're playing the job right (proper use of cooldowns, which is what learning the job is entirely about) there's very little of a fight where you're sat there fishing for a proc, and even if you are it doesn't have that big effect on your overall dps.

MCH is literally one of the strongest dps jobs right now, especially in a raiding environment and if it continues to be it is not going anywhere. If anything I would argue MCH is one of the most well designed jobs in the game right now and the only streamlining I'd like to see for it would be consolidating certain skills together (such as dismantle and rend mind, or the heavy/bind).

I've been a MCH main for most of Heavensward, and while I am interested in Samurai I'll always continue to at least sub MCH unless Stormblood completely destroys it. You know, by like, dropping Gauss Barrel because of how much everyone cried about it despite it mechanically working much better with MCH than it does with BRD.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

IIRC, MCH is the strongest DPS right now. I don't think it's going anywhere

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That would actually be Monk. And then Black Mage when they don't have to dance.

After that, I don't know. I guess you could say Dragoon and Machinist, but Dragoon can get pretty up there in numbers.

But if you want to talk about hard-hitting, definitely Machinist with Wildfire and Black Mage with their Fire IV's.

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Originally Posted by Moururii

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Haven't heard of anyone advocating dropping Gauss Barrel compared to people advocating to drop Minuet outside of aesthetic reasons.

Actually, the salt level would be pretty astronomical if the devs took out Gauss Barrel but left Minuet alone.

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Originally Posted by Moururii

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RNG does effect the MCH DPS during the Reload and Quick Reload Cooldown period. When you're stuck only spamming Split Shot between weaving Gauss Round and Ricochet it is a decent amount of DPS lost due to not getting that 50% chance at Slug and Clean Shot.

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Originally Posted by Moururii

I don't know why people are thinking RNG is such a big element to MCH's performance. If you're playing the job right (proper use of cooldowns, which is what learning the job is entirely about) there's very little of a fight where you're sat there fishing for a proc, and even if you are it doesn't have that big effect on your overall dps.

MCH is literally one of the strongest dps jobs right now, especially in a raiding environment and if it continues to be it is not going anywhere. If anything I would argue MCH is one of the most well designed jobs in the game right now and the only streamlining I'd like to see for it would be consolidating certain skills together (such as dismantle and rend mind, or the heavy/bind).

I've been a MCH main for most of Heavensward, and while I am interested in Samurai I'll always continue to at least sub MCH unless Stormblood completely destroys it. You know, by like, dropping Gauss Barrel because of how much everyone cried about it despite it mechanically working much better with MCH than it does with BRD.

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Like one of my friends said to me

"The problem with MCH might not be the rng but how strict the job is, you eventually end up looking like Mozart"
And that line is exactly why MCH needs to be simplified.

This is how everyone plays MCH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNU-XAZjhzA

It's.....just too much. At some point there's a point where it's just too much. Remove some of the preparation (specially hotshot).
There will always be people who don't agree, but for the majority (from what I see here) MCH needs to be simplified. Fun should always take precedence to any fancies like complexity. It's why Sam and Red mage won't be complex. I bet you 100000 Mog dollars that the only reason why they made MCH so complex is to try to make it different from Bard. But if that's what they wanted they should find funner ways to do that.

Please Yoshida, think first about fun, complexity/strictness is an artificial kind of fun.

Besides removing hotshot I still want to see more support for a dual gun "stance" or buff. To fix the problem of "2 big guns will look ridiculous" they could just shrink in size when you go dual gun. There's your solution devs!

I like complexity though. I mean, I wouldn't mind a few things being streamlined with MCH(give me Gauss earlier for how integral it is, and just put rend mind and dismantle together- and seriously no rend mind for 2.x content is silly, also probably stick other shared cooldowns together), but the reason I play the class is because it occupies me more than other classes. DRG is just too slow and plodding for my tastes, I love skillweaving.

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Originally Posted by Pence

The only thing that will make me quit MCH is if they over simplify it. I like complexities of the job, and I love having to play at my best to be able to pull the numbers.

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Let me ask you
Do all black mages pull the same numbers?

Or is still up to really good black mages to actually excel above?
See, complexity is not real. There's always people that will go beyond.

A great black mage (simplest dps class) still has a high ceiling to reach even if the class is "simple."

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

RNG does effect the MCH DPS during the Reload and Quick Reload Cooldown period. When you're stuck only spamming Split Shot between weaving Gauss Round and Ricochet it is a decent amount of DPS lost due to not getting that 50% chance at Slug and Clean Shot.

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Just did a 2 minute rotation on a dumby, even as rusty as I was on MCH.
In a full rotation between wildfires, popping Quick and normal Reload, HotShot/LeadShot as appropriate, there were about 10 cases where I fired Split/Slug without ammo, ergo a potentiality for getting a proc.
You lose 40 potency if you don't proc a Slug from a split.
You lose 20 potency if you don't proc a Clean from a Slug.

If one's rotation of those 10 procs is as follows:
1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
10

Split Slug Clean
Split Slug Clean
Split Slug Clean
Split

140 180 200
140 180 200
140 180 200
140

(The differences from Split's 140 base being)
Base 40 60
Base 40 60
Base 40 60
Base

40+60=100
100x3=300

The odds of not proccing ANY Slugs from split is about 1/1024. (Flip a coin 10 times get all tails) a potentiality of losing (in this worst case scenario) 300 potency.

If a WAR's Fell Cleave doesn't crit they lose 500.
It's not that much of a loss.

(Though upon reflection, one's subsequent Wildfires will usually not have full ammo stacks + Reload off cooldown, thus one would have a worse wildfire by having to fish once or twice, the variance for each hit would then increase because of buffs such as Blood for Blood, Hawk's Eye, and Raging strikes being up + Wildfire's 25% damage buff. The difference would be more significant there.)

The main thing here, from what the OP mentioned, is that MCH is the least played DPS by 4%. There's a reason for it. If you don't like simplicity, you can aim for complex. But then at some point, complex devolves into convoluted.

There's a giant gap in dps between a casual MCH and a good MCH. The majority of MCH's I've seen, aren't any good. But explaining the job to a casual player isn't so easy. My friend, who is not casual in the least but hated BRD and ended up liking MCH, kept asking me what MCH's rotation was, and I had to tell him over and over that it doesn't work off a rotation, rather, a priority system. It took him till the end of lvl 50's to truly realize what I meant.

Anyway, my main point is if they want more people to play MCH then yes, they need to make it more appealing. If that involves "simplifying" the job, I'd, personally, be fine with that. But they also need to make it visually appealing as well. NIN, MNK and DRG are pretty stylish. While a MCH sits there, goes pew-pew and just snaps their spine. :V

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

A great black mage (simplest dps class) still has a high ceiling to reach even if the class is "simple."

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I would... not call black mage the simplest DPS class by a country mile, dude.

Machinist is Godly and a supreme being to look down and cast judgement at all mortal jobs.

That is all.

I'm not sure why one job being more complex is a problem. If you don't like it there are other jobs to play? Many of us currently playing MCH enjoy it's complexity over other jobs. That said I don't even personally find MCH complex, it's easy to break down and was very easy for me to learn. I find Monk incredibly difficult to play while others would call it straightforward and simple. Different strokes for different folks. What is fun for one person is not for the other.

MCH was designed from the beginning, like all the Heavensward jobs, to have a higher skill floor than the others, I'm not sure why this is a bad thing when other jobs exists that are easier to pick up. Could the job be taught better? Absolutely, XIV in general could teach a lot of things a lot better but MCH isn't in need of some dramatic overhaul like half this thread is acting like.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Haven't heard of anyone advocating dropping Gauss Barrel compared to people advocating to drop Minuet outside of aesthetic reasons.

Actually, the salt level would be pretty astronomical if the devs took out Gauss Barrel but left Minuet alone.

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It comes up less but it's pretty frequently thrown in with WM complaints at least from my own experience.

I like the relatively high skill floor of MCH. But I'm surprised it's being called too strict or convoluted. I think the challenge is where it should be because MCH is actually very versatile in a raid environment.

Sure, Wildfire can require a lot of considerations to optimize that small window but that's really it. You know what's more strict - old DRG positionals that wouldn't apply buffs if you missed it. Or better yet, BLM cast times. BLM might not be as complex rotationally but it's base mechanics are extremely strict and punishing. MCH is the opposite, it's just more active but extremely versatile in situations. It's not only opening burst, it has great dps overall and it buffs the melee with hypercharge.

I don't think they should simplify MCH. They could make it a little more visually appealing ability wise though.

I think some people are getting the wrong idea about what I actually think because I threw some adjectives out there. What I was trying to get at is: why aren't many people playing MCH?

Some people think it's complex and love it, and some people think it's complex and avoid it. Some people think it's simple and don't know what the fuss is about, and some people think it's convoluted and avoid it.

If you love MCH, that's great. I also love MCH. I think it's a complex job, but I've also gotten use to its complexity. However, I won't touch it for casual content out of pure laziness. And I couldn't care less if they "simplify" the job or not.

But if SE wants more people to play MCH, I'm wondering what changes they actually have in mind for SB.

People don't play it because of GB probably, they think of a gunner class and think running around shooting bullets from every direction and when they hit 52 and realise it's more of a gun Mage they drop it. It's understandable really but you have to respect Squares vision for the job.

It's all about respect not entitlement.

Every group game needs options that have a range in low to high skill floors and skill ceilings.
If not, some portion of your playersite will either get bored (too simple) or frustrated (too hard). The high skill floor options are never popular, but they are vital or you risk losing a part of the player base that is deeply invested.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Every group game needs options that have a range in low to high skill floors and skill ceilings.
If not, some portion of your playersite will either get bored (too simple) or frustrated (too hard). The high skill floor options are never popular, but they are vital or you risk losing a part of the player base that is deeply invested.

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FFXIV was doing bad before HW?
Complexity is never positive. A high ceiling is.

Black mage is simple but the ceiling is high.