Split SCH and SMN already! The poblems are just going to keep increasing!!!

I never had a issue with SCH at all during any stage of the leveling process.
Poison Dragon of Brayflox and the Worm of Cutters Cry were the only times I've ever needed to use Selene for her purge ability but that's a positive thing as it made you learn to use your fairy's abilities wisely instead of keeping them on auto pilot all the time.

I do agree that SMN and SCH should be split, stat-wise, but really that's the only thing I agree with in this thread.

Why are you demanding Leeches at 15 when neither of the other healers get their versions until 18? SCH gets its MP restore mechanic really early compared to WHM, for example, and has a way easier time during certain encounters as a result.

Don't get me wrong, I love SCH myself and think some things do need changing (the entire bonus stat points mechanic is a massive waste of time since everyone either picks the correct stat mindlessly or sucks; it adds nothing to the game and should be removed from all classes entirely along with other pointless stuff like elemental resistance scores). But Leeches? Books? Those things don't bother me at all. Leeches will likely be adjusted automatically anyway with the changes in SB, as will the other healer abilities to homogenise and balance them all better.

In the meantime, every fledgling SCH has gone through the same thing, just like every fledgling WHM who hits a wall in Brayflox when too many silly melee players stand in too much bad stuff and drain all of their MP away a couple of levels before they can restore it naturally. Ethers exist for that. Items exist for SCHs who desperately need to mimic Esuna too (or they can just heal through it all). It doesn't seem like a huge issue.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Why are you demanding Leeches at 15 when neither of the other healers get their versions until 18? SCH gets its MP restore mechanic really early compared to WHM, for example, and has a way easier time during certain encounters as a result.Don't get me wrong, I love SCH myself and think some things do need changing (the entire bonus stat points mechanic is a massive waste of time since everyone either picks the correct stat mindlessly or sucks; it adds nothing to the game and should be removed from all classes entirely along with other pointless stuff like elemental resistance scores). But Leeches? Books? Those things don't bother me at all. Leeches will likely be adjusted automatically anyway with the changes in SB, as will the other healer abilities to homogenise and balance them all better.

In the meantime, every fledgling SCH has gone through the same thing, just like every fledgling WHM who hits a wall in Brayflox when too many silly melee players stand in too much bad stuff and drain all of their MP away a couple of levels before they can restore it naturally. Ethers exist for that. Items exist for SCHs who desperately need to mimic Esuna too (or they can just heal through it all). It doesn't seem like a huge issue.

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Why? esuna is 16 (should be 15 when you enter your first DF, no reason not to be available. AST gets theirs, SCH suffers because of the outdated system 1.0 gave us. It should been tossed out in 2.0 because it is simply outdated and does not work for the current game. Same with needing clerics like you said, likely be on the list for the stormblood changes.

People care about glams, there is no reason 3 different "jobs" should be using the same weapon because of an outdated idea from 1.0

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Why? esuna is 16 (should be 15 when you enter your first DF, no reason not to be available. AST gets theirs, SCH suffers because of the outdated system 1.0 gave us. It should been tossed out in 2.0 because it is simply outdated and does not work for the current game. Same with needing clerics like you said, likely be on the list for the stormblood changes.

People care about glams, there is no reason 3 different "jobs" should be using the same weapon because of an outdated idea from 1.0

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Its 18 for both

Source: Just switched jobs in-game

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Why? esuna is 16 (should be 15 when you enter your first DF, no reason not to be available. AST gets theirs, SCH suffers because of the outdated system 1.0 gave us.

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I'm pretty sure Esuna is level 18. Meanwhile, AST and SCH get their MP refresh abilities early, where's WHM's? Oh, level 38. And AST and SCH get their shielding, where's WHM's to let them cheese mechanics that groups with only WHMs can't skip? And where's WHM's party damage increase abilities? And even though Esuna comes earlier than Leeches, Selene can save tons of time and MP with her AoE version. I think WHM and AST need to get the same ability too at the same level as SCH to make everything fair.

The healers were never created equal. It doesn't make any sense to buff SCH for a couple of easy low level dungeons when SCHs have been successfully solo healing them for years and level 60 balance is more important. The other healers have drawbacks in other ways that SCH doesn't at various points in the low level crawl to 60.

i don't mind if they are split but if the problems are going to keep increasing what problems occurred because of Heavensward?

the 3 you listed never bothered me.

Let's not forget the fact that if the rest of your party is competent and doesn't take avoidable damage you can LITERALLY set your SCH to auto-follow the tank and let your fairy solo heal every dungeon through level 40 with ease while you go watch Netflix or cook dinner. I would know, I've done so. With a premade of course, before the healer dps crowd sacrifices me at the altar of Cleric Stance. SCH is literally the easiest and safest healer in the game to use and if you are having difficulty with low level content as a SCH may I humbly suggest that you may need to 'git gud'.

So one thing to point out is that if SCH and SMN aren't split with the mechanics changes coming to 4.0, they'll DEFINITELY get split in 5.0 when the base classes are removed.

Another thing to point out as well: isn't the whole theme about SCH knowing stuff? I mean, that's what makes them scholarly, right? Knowing the most basic battle tactics to the most advanced strategies throughout history, that is the purpose of the SCH as far as lore, which I think is also reflected in how SCH plays. To know how to play with the unique circumstances that are present with the job; that is what it takes to play a SCH. Yes, that could be said of any job, but no other job has that mentality built into the job quite like SCH does, and I think anyone who is leveling that job needs to bear that in mind.

People are having problems with SCH on pre-40 dungeons? At launch, I started in Ul'dah and switched to ACN once I got to Limsa and did the SCH quest when I hit 30 and have mained it since. The only dungeon that was a struggle on SCH was Aurum Vale, because back at launch the stacking effects of the 1st and last bosses also affected your pet but eating the fruit didn't cure the pet.

Also, Selene didn't have the AOE cleanse back then either.

Either learn to adapt or switch to WHM/AST.

I leveled all three healers to 60, and Scholar was by far the easiest at all level ranges simply because Eos could simply solo heal by herself while I parked myself in Cleric Stance for 90% of the dungeon. Sounds like some people in this thread never figured out how to use Rouse or Whispering Dawn.

Either way, I agree that both jobs need to be completely split from each other, but for entirely different reasons. The way I currently feel, the Arcanist class was created with Scholar being the focus, with Summoner being tacked on later. A split opens up room for Summoner to behave closer to being an actual Summoner, instead of an awkward poison-debuffing class with pets. I've even drafted up a proposal of how Summoner could get overhauled if this were to happen, though be aware I don't actually play Summoner.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfuyzt5reh...rhaul.rtf?dl=0

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

cutters cry is 38 so you are wrong, do that at 38 sch and tell me how well that works out for you.

This is clearly an oversight because of an outdated system that had no business in being in 2.0+

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selene has a party wide esuna skill. It was changed from something else.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

A split opens up room for Summoner to behave closer to being an actual Summoner, instead of an awkward poison-debuffing class with pets. I've even drafted up a proposal of how Summoner could get overhauled if this were to happen, though be aware I don't actually play Summoner.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfuyzt5reh...rhaul.rtf?dl=0

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All that I need to feel as an actual summoner is new pets (at least the classic 3 remaining) and for Dreadwyrm Trance (rename it to Astral Flow ;) ) to make my pet become the real deal to unleash an attack like Judgement Bolt.

I don't like their idea of turning us into gimp black mages, that's not the class fantasy.

Okay, I didnt read each post because its all going to be the same stuff we've heard before. But here are the key points for right now, they wanted to make more split classes like SCH and SMN, but realized that they backed themselves into a corner, that they would need time to get out of. For right now the split is staying and they are maintaining the balance very well. And the extra stat points you get dont mean much in end game. Don't say it does because i checked, and will check again in SB. Oh and don't sneak any of that, "with the split we can get a real summoner" shite, yeah, no. This, THIS, is the FFXIV SMN. There is no true or real Summoner, the only qualifications are that it summons, and hey guess what it does. So stop, just stop.

Now to the OP, are you serious, you know changes are coming but you couldn't hold your "complaining" until after Stormblood. They are adding role skills, you dont think Esuna could be a part of that. I cant say for sure though.

Also you know you get an "esuna" skill, at roughly the same time as Esuna, I'll let you figure out where it is.

Oh and for your information Grimoires are the default Scholar weapon, like claws for monks and spears for dragoons, SMN never used books, but tge books make sense for them in general.

I will add one additional thing, Truely good healers can heal through the pain, with minimum effort.

It would be nice to get leeches earlier, but ultimately it's not a huge deal when the group plays as they should. I.e. Not ignoring mechanics and derping the boss Aoe's just because they can't be bothered with the lower level dungeon mechanics. Also, I suspect that will be a role ability.

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

This is for the crazy min/max players. How many people in this game actually do that. Your points are valid yes, but it doesn't change the fact that all 35 points in int on sch isn't game changing. I play smn and sch both and the points are needed more in smn than sch. The fairy scales more off gear than mind so healing isn't an issiue(I've solo healed A11 normal when it first came out).

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Again, keeping groups healed isn't the issue. Your fairy will normally take care of 65-90% of healing throughout the game's content anyway. Your DPS and shield potency goes down though. The 35 points is basically a piece of gear you're missing. You are right that it is not game changing, but the SCH who allocates their points correctly is going to hit harder and their shields will be more potent than the one who doesn't. I'm not even a min/max player, and I don't raid. I swap the points because it is VERY easy to do. It is inconvenient. I totally get that, which is why I don't swap every time I switch between the two jobs. Just when entering instances with other players.

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Originally Posted by Mature

We've been asking for this for over 3 years.

Separate bonus points permanently for once and for all.

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It's not easy though, since it's tied to the actual "main leveling point" of the jobs, this being Acranist. What you are asking for is to single out Arcanist and give them the unique capability of having 2 separate "bonus points" but it's hard to do that since when you are a SCH or a SMN, you are still leveling off Arcanist and because you are still leveling off said class, it's taking the ability points from that "class".

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Originally Posted by SomeRandomHuman

This is for the crazy min/max players. How many people in this game actually do that. Your points are valid yes, but it doesn't change the fact that all 35 points in int on sch isn't game changing. I play smn and sch both and the points are needed more in smn than sch. The fairy scales more off gear than mind so healing isn't an issue(I've solo healed A11 normal when it first came out).

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Again, keeping groups healed isn't the issue. Your fairy will normally take care of 65-90% of healing throughout the game's content anyway. Your DPS and shield potency goes down though. The 35 points is basically a piece of gear you're missing. You are right that it is not game changing, but the SCH who allocates their points correctly is going to hit harder and their shields will be more potent than the one who doesn't. I'm not even a min/max player, and I don't raid. I swap the points because it is VERY easy to do. It is inconvenient. I totally get that, which is why I don't swap every time I switch between the two jobs. Just when entering instances with other players.

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You both have a valid point that the extra points offer a benefit, but the effect isn't as noticeable as you'd think. I did tests to compare the two with the points allocated in both Mind and Intelligence. Basically where the wider margin is, is where the points should be placed. In ARR, the game favored SCH so placing the points in Int for SMN was better. In HW the game favors SMN so putting the points in Mind is better. What it boiled down to was like a fraction of a percentage, it's hard to describe it... but lets say the the difference is 20pts for SMN and 40pts for SCH, SCH would need the extra boost, and vice versa. Once SB comes out, and the game receives its semi-major overhaul, I'll do the tests again. Maybe it'll stay as it is now, maybe it it'll switch back. Or maybe they will remove the stupid points since they really have no purpose but to provide pseudo-customization.

Oh and piggybacking further up this conversation, to what Gemina said about SCH having the lowest healing potency, that's actually not true. If anything they have the highest; the only difference being is it's not burst heals. I know it might look it with Lustrate and Indomitably, but it's not. Also the fairy compensates for that slightly lower mind stat, but they scale more from Det, which we only get from gear. This is the reason they had a hard time balancing AST and keeping things in check with WHM; besides the whole SCH/SMN "issue" they made SCH too "perfect" so they had to find the balance without taking away too much.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Now to the OP, are you serious, you know changes are coming but you couldn't hold your "complaining" until after Stormblood. They are adding role skills, you dont think Esuna could be a part of that. I cant say for sure though.

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This is what I feel will happen, there's no need for having different Esuna spells, instead let Leeches do something different for Scholar and have Esuna become a class role.

The only part that bothers me is the bonus point thing. I cannot understand why they have not fixed it so you can play both jobs...

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Oh and don't sneak any of that, "with the split we can get a real summoner" shite, yeah, no. This, THIS, is the FFXIV SMN.

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I'm not going to throw around words like "proper" and "real" because I've learned from experience that on these forums it can upset or annoy people who like XIV's SMN. That's obviously not helpful to anyone. However, I'm not going to stop asking for a Summoner job that better reflects the theme of its predecessors. If you find that irritating then I'm sorry, but a split between SCH and the current SMN would be a perfect situation to get that ball rolling. I'm not sneaking anything - it's a legitimate observation.

The fact that people keep going on about this, even after literally years of no response, should illustrate that some people are quite passionate about wanting it. I don't think "Just stop" is a good response to that. "How can we achieve this and make everyone happy?" seems like a more constructive direction.

I personally don't think a split has any downsides. Split SCH off into its own classless job starting at lv30, start ACN as a classless job at level one, and incorporate existing SMN into ACN. SCH and ACN keep the spells they currently have, but they aren't linked, so adjustments can be made. The attribute points issue disappears. SCH can get its healing tools are a more appropriate level, if this is deemed necessary. Then the work on a new SMN can begin, fans of the old one keep ACN, and everyone is happy. :)

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Originally Posted by Canadane

I'm in the opposite camp, where I want to see more job splits on the same classes.

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I'd like to see this with ninja. I would have loved for rogue to be either Ninja or Thief.

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Originally Posted by matteoxyz

The only part that bothers me is the bonus point thing. I cannot understand why they have not fixed it so you can play both jobs...

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you can play both jobs, i do.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

SCH can get its healing tools are a more appropriate level, if this is deemed necessary. Then the work on a new SMN can begin, fans of the old one keep ACN, and everyone is happy. :)

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ACN can be its own class, SCh should be its own class, and SMN should be its own class.

What we have now is a mistake based off the outdated 1.0 stuff that DOES NOT WORK!!!<<<< for this version of the game.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

What we have now is a mistake based off the outdated 1.0 stuff that DOES NOT WORK!!!<<<< for this version of the game.

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you have not answered my question about which part does not work because of Heavensward?

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

ACN can be its own class, SCh should be its own class, and SMN should be its own class.

What we have now is a mistake based off the outdated 1.0 stuff that DOES NOT WORK!!!<<<< for this version of the game.

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They are "working" just fine. Just not in the way that some people would like. It's certainly not a mistake.

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Originally Posted by LordPhantomhive

I'd like to see this with ninja. I would have loved for rogue to be either Ninja or Thief.

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I wish archer could split into ranger for those of us who likes bows but don't want to support and cast bars.

Ok sooo....

I finally decided to weigh in on this... and after wondering what the fuss was about I thought I'd go ahead and unlock SCH as a second half to my SMN. I definitely prefer the SMN as I like that job much more... but as I thought about it... I decided perhaps it would be a good idea to have a healer job to support my FC if necessary. I had planned on originally starting a DRK after going the SMN and BLM route.... because honestly I do like DRKs. It's an Aesthetics thing about them that I like.

I never would have even bothered with doing a healer job as its generally not my thing and I tend to only do it as backup when its needed. Or like Raising people with SMN when I have to. Its great to have as a backup skill... but I really didn't want to play one...

BUT... the game now makes it easy for an actual DPS player who doesn't really like the healer side... but... if they like casters... they can easily unlock a healer class now just as a backup at the same level as their primary..... even if it wasn't something they wanted to play.

In my case I was more thinking about how I could assist my FC members when the problem isn't a shortage of DPSers.... but rather they need a tank or healer to join a very tough instance or dungeon in order to get them through it.

Well... I now understand the wisdom in the Dev's idea of keeping Arcanist as the base class and splitting SMN and SCH as alternate jobs from the Base class of Arcanist but keeping them leveled togather....

I don't and never intend to make healer a primary job at all... but... I do see the merits of being able to switch over to a healer job at any given time to assist someone else like someone in your FC when a healer is needed rather than a DPS.... Yeah I don't care really that my MIND is lower than if I'd have gone full blown SCH... because I only intend it as a temporary thing for when its needed.

But poof... now in one shot... I can switch from my normal SMN job... to SCH job in a pinch and be that versatile with one single step. And it doesn't play that terribly differently than I'm already used to... the Pet handles most things, and I can still keep at least a partial rotation that I kept with SMN, even though its about half the strength of what my SMN side can do.

In one small adjustment, I become a healer when I never would have considered any kind of step like that before...

I wonder how many other people the Devs suckered into playing a healer by giving them a pet that does most of the job... and then keeping most their previous favorite character intact... And then filling up the queue with healers.... of which there is a shortage of...

So... when looked at in that light... I now understand the wisdom behind the decision... and why they should not change it... they accomplished their mission in one fell swoop with a really good sucker play.

And honestly... the quest for the SCH is SOooo much easier than the SMN quest to do so its barely even an inconvenience to you just to unlock the thing and instantly have it at your current level.

Devs create more healers... and do it with a minimum of inconvenience to someone who never would have bothered doing it in the first place...