Community expectations

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Originally Posted by Miste

The person you quoted was talking about Zurvan EX.

Zurvan EX is not in the Duty Finder. You can only PF a full group or try Raid Finder (but no one usually uses the Raid Finder for it since most groups only go with one tank and the RF forces two)

So I think you might be misunderstanding.

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Possibly, I wasn't so much responding to the specific point of Zurvan EX as I was the sentiment behind the post, which seemed to be that Duty Finder is there for experienced players and Party Finder is there for others.

I wasn't talking so much about skipping Soar in Zurvan EX as I was about the philosophy of how to use Duty Finder vs Party Finder.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

The JP community is more organized because gaming as a hobby / recreational activity is taken more seriously in Japan. That and as a society they take a fundamentally different approach towards respect to group time and dynamics.

The DF on Japanese servers isn't treated as a testing ground and the "who cares it's just ----" mentality isn't prevalent because while the level or ease of content may be insignificant what they as players are treating with value is your time an issue that we currently have in the western community.

Incidentally if the latest unofficial census is to be believed Tonberry has the lowest Savage Alexander clear rare of ALL Japanese servers while also having the largest western presence.

Food for thought.

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Just....I love you for this, that's all.

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Originally Posted by VeliusVire

Just....I love you for this, that's all.

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I keep seeing this and while it sounds like a good lesson, it keeps manifesting into other problems on the NA server from both ends. What community is left is too fragmented.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Please make sure you read carefully so there's no further misunderstanding.

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I have indeed done so, and will be removing my post, since it's not relative to this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Meeting proper minimum ilvl for a dungeon or at the very least keeping up with gear appropriate for the level of content isn't really that hard of a concept. Same goes for hitting more than 3 buttons and not being an ice mage etc.

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People keep using that example, but the truth is far more blurry. I'm not talking about doing half your full potential. It's more like "We should be at 75%, we're at 77%, you're out"

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Originally Posted by Ryel

They intentionally have made stats a non-choice

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They also have made secondary stats pitifully weak compared to main stats. As a tank you could stack all the parry you can, and your overall DPS would barely suffers. Yes, you can be kicked for not wanting to use Grade V materia on intermediate gear (True story)

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Originally Posted by Ryel

If you are still learning a fight's mechanics don't join a farm party.

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If we're in a learning party (Either by party or by raid finder specifically set to welcome first timers) don't throw the lack of DPS when 2 minutes into the fight when we're still learning.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Then make one?

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Will it suddenly change the mentality of all parties that plays that way ? When did "not skipping Soar" became "not being able to carry one's weight through the content" ?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

which seemed to be that Duty Finder is there for experienced players and Party Finder is there for others.

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Since you can't set any requirement in the Duty Finder, you have to accept who the game throws at you. If you have higher expectations, Party Finder is there so that you can clearly express them and people will be fully aware of that.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

People keep using that example, but the truth is far more blurry. I'm not talking about doing half your full potential. It's more like "We should be at 75%, we're at 77%, you're out"

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Hyperboles aren't gonna reinforce your stance, you know very well that attitude isn't as common as you make it out to be, nearly all DF complaints are because of DPS doing less damage than tanks (aka going afk mid fight very often) and healers acting like heal bots, very few people care about min maxing in DF.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Youre using alot of extreme examples that rarely ever happen.

Also the whole Soar issue isnt something you should be concerned about when making your own party. I dont even know why wanting to skip Soar bothers people. Its the easiest thing to skip.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

People keep using that example, but the truth is far more blurry. I'm not talking about doing half your full potential. It's more like "We should be at 75%, we're at 77%, you're out"

They also have made secondary stats pitifully weak compared to main stats. As a tank you could stack all the parry you can, and your overall DPS would barely suffers. Yes, you can be kicked for not wanting to use Grade V materia on intermediate gear (True story)

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Your "truth" is just the opposite.

You need look no further than this very forum to see the content of threads from players who have been kicked, or to other threads containing screenshots posted of various people entering dungeons in gear that is sometimes over 100 ilvls under what they should be wearing or containing the wrong primary stat.

A tank can stack all the parry they want, yes but luckily all parry gear also has VIT on it. Stacking all DEX or INT gear however would be a terrible choice just as it would be for a DPS to stack VIT gear and there are cases where players do exactly that to fudge ilvl.

Additionally according to the GM guidelines you can be kicked for just about anything as far as "differences in playstyle" are concerned but you aren't likely to be kicked from anything short of raids for lack of melds and even then it isn't likely you're going to be kicked for melding IV's instead of V's

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If we're in a learning party (Either by party or by raid finder specifically set to welcome first timers) don't throw the lack of DPS when 2 minutes into the fight when we're still learning.

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You can still be learning and be massively below where you should be.

If you are in a learning party and your damage is low enough to hinder the progression of the 7 others in the party and they wish to remove you as to increase their odds (unlikely but possible), you cant force them to continue wanting to play with you.

Eat the kick and move on.

Maybe you get better and it doesn't happen again? Maybe you weren't really the problem and it was just that party? It happens.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Will it suddenly change the mentality of all parties that plays that way ? When did "not skipping Soar" became "not being able to carry one's weight through the content" ?

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Why does it have to change the mentality of all parties playing that way?

Are you trying to change the way every single person plays or are you trying to clear / farm the content?

Once again go make that "Skipping soar not required" party or that "Soar learning" party let it fill with people who dont care about skipping soar; get your kills, your weapons, and your bird and have a good time.

Who cares what the other parties are doing? Is it up to you or anyone else to police the entire PF?

If enough like minded players decide that they dont care about soar and wish to put up PFs for it then the PF will be full of those parties.

It really is that simple.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

When did games stop being about just having fun....

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The big thing to remember is, this is an MMO and in MMO's everyone has their own feelings as what's fun. Some find fast efficient fun, some find slow and methodical fun, some find spending two hours in a dungeon just goofing off, chatting and taking screenshots fun. To each their own. It's why we can't stress enough for the player to look for others and friends that share their idea's of what is fun and what isn't.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

You need look no further than this very forum to see the content of threads from players who have been kicked, or to other threads containing screenshots posted of various people entering dungeons in gear that is sometimes over 100 ilvls under what they should be wearing or containing the wrong primary stat.

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In this very forum, you'll also see topics about healers being kicked for healing, and off-tanks being kicked for not being in tank stance. Far more blurry

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Originally Posted by Ryel

If enough like minded players decide that they dont care about soar and wish to put up PFs for it then the PF will be full of those parties.

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On paper, yes. Problem is, the "only look for optimal" mentality is so vocal and strong that it even the producer takes it into consideration. That's the official reason for why we don't have more diverse gear and builds.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

On paper, yes. Problem is, the "only look for optimal" mentality is so vocal and strong that it even the producer takes it into consideration. That's the official reason for why we don't have more diverse gear and builds.

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This is a complete cop-out.

MMORPGs have had to work around this problem since their inception. Are you saying that the FFXIV dev team is the only one incapable of creating stat alternatives? The only reason we dont have more diverse gear options is because they dont want to balance around them as it makes it more difficult and would take more time.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

MMORPGs have had to work around this problem since their inception. Are you saying that the FFXIV dev team is the only one incapable of creating stat alternatives?

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No, that's not what I'm saying. You're right, MMO had to work around that since the beginning. But, at the beginning, players asked for that so games delivered.

The thing is, the most vocal mentality (It's hard to say if it's a real majority, but that's not really how forums work) claims that the new generation of players does not want meaningful choices when building their characters. They don't want alternatives, they wan't the one path. If so, why would the dev team takes time to balance alternatives ? That's not worth it. It's also a reason why they chose to make a normal mode for raids. Most of the ressources are used to design the normal mode, that almost every player does. It's much more useful that designing a whole raid that only 10% of people will clear.

And, now that I think of it, I wonder if it's not part of the reason why we only have two expert dungeons in HW...outside of roulettes, we can assume most people will chose the fastest dungeon to farm tomestones. So why should they bother designing three dungeons if two of them will be ignored after their initial clear ? One dungeon tied to the MSQ, one other for latecomers, and here we go.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

When did games stop being about just having fun...

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All MMOs stop being fun at end-game when the min/max elitists start to dictate what and how you have to play to be allowed to play.

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

All MMOs stop being fun at end-game when the min/max elitists start to dictate what and how you have to play to be allowed to play.

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How do they do that if everyone just wants to have fun however?

Nobody can "dictate" what other people are to do. The most people can do is to kick people from their parties or not let them in and that goes for everyone equally - the "elitists" and the "anti-elitists". You can "dictate" black mages to become ice mages as much as other people can "dictate" black mages to use enochian and fire/ice IV, by kicking people who play that way. It's just a matter of which side is more prevalent.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's also a reason why they chose to make a normal mode for raids. Most of the ressources are used to design the normal mode, that almost every player does. It's much more useful that designing a whole raid that only 10% of people will clear.

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Just to interject here, I don't think this is really true. Judging by what we can see of the Normal and Savage raids, it looks much more as though they built the Savage first, and then cranked back on the damage and difficulty and removed some of the worst mechanics in order to create the Normal version. The abilities used in Normal mode are almost always a subset of the abilities from Savage. Heck, Alexander 5 even has an arena that reflects this, with two spigots that are never used in normal mode but are there all the same.

I think that the last time SE built the easier mode first was in the days of Titan, Ifrit, and Garuda. All the Savage/Extreme content since, it looks much more like the normal mode is a toned-down version of the Savage/Extreme, rather than Savage/Extreme being an amped-up version of the normal.

I'm pretty sure most players who come to this game dream of one day being powerful enough to take on the toughest content. It's the same with any game you buy - you want to get the most you can out of it, experience all it has to offer. Most of them never quite reach that goal (as evidenced by the low clear rates), whether it be because they recognize that they just don't have the skill, dedication, or patience, or because they get turned off by the endgame community, or simply because they found something else in the game that they enjoy more. The raids, though, were built for raiders first, and afterwards scaled back to provide an offering for non-raiders. The normal version is there to give the folks that can't or won't raid the opportunity to feel like they've experienced the whole game.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I don’t understand why the FF14 community is so focused on performing in the most efficient manner and so heavily on ilv/BiS

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Because it is the community that is roaming the forums the most. All others are playing the game and having fun.

I'm having fun being good at the game. If you don't find it fun then whatever.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Because it is the community that is roaming the forums the most. All others are playing the game and having fun.

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Almost like I have multiple monitors. :^)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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I agree completly. Without the harder stuff to do, what's left in the game to give anyone a feeling of "there's still more to do"? It's true that maybe only 10% or even fewer of the playerbase might see and do the harder stuff, but at the same time, it's something that keeps many of them playing the game. Hoping and dreaming about being able to do it and having the rewards from those places. Without the harders stuff, what would keep players from just going "well, I've seen and done everything now, better unsub until next patch", leaving the game a graveyard after a month of every major patch.

FF have enough trouble keeping players yerning for "the next step" as it is, every other patch being more or less a complete gear-reset.

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Originally Posted by Yonanja

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I disagree with this, there are plenty of games I happily buy and play stages and missions over and over, without really getting bored or losing sight of goals. It's only because this game is incredibly on-rails ("look at all this customization with materia! now slap on one type of materia onto your gear in the parameters we dictate with our caps or get judged by your peers." "raised all your members again with lb?, good, you're doomed anyway at the end with my 99990 move." "crafted that fancy sword, good job, you made the weakest weapon this tier. should tide a returnee over for two weeks.") that they run into this problem time and again.