Need help between war and pld

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

Sauron must have been a WAR. He could fell cleave 6 enemies with each swing, and then die from one hit to the finger.

I want a WAR nerf so badly in 4.0 just to hear all the arrogant asshat warriors crying tears of unfathomable sadness.

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'wa-warrior OP p-pls nerf'

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

They're essentially wasted as a main tank (and little more than an MP sink for healers once their cooldowns are gone). Keep in mind a lot of groups don't even bring an off tank anymore if there's no tank-swap mechanic, sooo you might have problems there. You will have to really practice where and when you need your cooldowns, because you don't have a lot, and using them inappropriately will reeeeally piss off your healers.

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You have no idea what you're talking about. Warrior CDs can mitigate just fine and actually far better than paladins when it comes to magical mitigation. Thrill of the battle, storms path, vengeance, inner beast? that's 4 CDs, 2 more that mitigate magical damage better than paladin so technically warrior would be a better MT than paladin would in high magical damage fights like A12S.

stop spreading false information.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

You have no idea what you're talking about. Warrior CDs can mitigate just fine and actually far better than paladins when it comes to magical mitigation. Thrill of the battle, storms path, vengeance, inner beast? that's 4 CDs, 2 more that mitigate magical damage better than paladin so technically warrior would be a better MT than paladin would in high magical damage fights like A12S.

stop spreading false information.

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You're trying to tell me it doesn't take practice to manage your cooldowns? XD Darling I think you've been triggered and missed the bare bones of what I am saying, "You need to be not-amateur and practice your cooldown use more than the other 2 tanks." I'm sorry if the extra info confused you. ;3

And no, everyone and their dog agrees WAR is best off tank. In A12S the best groups bring a DRK for mt, not a WAR. :/

Just calm down, you sound like that crazy PLD on the last page.

Edit: also while rereading my post, I don't believe I said anywhere that WAR lacks mitigation. :O Simply that their higher damage in DPS stance gives them an advantage in off tank position that the other tanks don't get, so why the hell would you have WAR mt, and PLD ot??? <--this question is rhetorical btw.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

You're trying to tell me it doesn't take practice to manage your cooldowns? XD Darling I think you've been triggered and missed the bare bones of what I am saying, "You need to be not-amateur and practice your cooldown use more than the other 2 tanks." I'm sorry if the extra info confused you. ;3

And no, everyone and their dog agrees WAR is best off tank. In A12S the best groups bring a DRK for mt, not a WAR. :/

Just calm down, you sound like that crazy PLD on the last page.

Edit: also while rereading my post, I don't believe I said anywhere that WAR lacks mitigation. :O Simply that their higher damage in DPS stance gives them an advantage in off tank position that the other tanks don't get, so why the hell would you have WAR mt, and PLD ot??? <--this question is rhetorical btw.

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calm down? I'm not mad or anything lol Don't give yourself too much credit bub. I'm just saying it how it is.

I never said you should make warrior MT. i said warrior would make a better main tank than paladin would in magical damage fights like A12S if we're talking about mitigating magical damage over an extended amount of time. So you missed the point I made. It's cool though, it happens when you don't actually read things properly.

And in your reponse to your edit, I'm well aware of why warriors excel in the OT position than MT as I explained in my first post.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

calm down? I'm not mad or anything lol Don't give yourself too much credit bub. I'm just saying it how it is.

I never said you should make warrior MT. i said warrior would make a better main tank than paladin would in magical damage fights like A12S if we're talking about mitigating damage. So you missed the point I made. It's cool, though, it happens when you don't actually read things properly.

And in your reponse to your edit, I'm well aware of why warriors excel in the OT position than MT as I explained in my first post.

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Then why reply to me at all? None of what you said had any relevance to my earlier points if you weren't arguing why WAR needs to be MT. I'm not going to go on a tangent because someone thinks one instance of WAR being mt is worth noting (since no group is gonna take PLD/WAR into A12S anyway, what point exactly were you trying to argue?), when my point is about the entire game. You accused me of spreading false info when I did no such thing. That smells of butthurt to me.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

You accused me of spreading false info when I did no such thing. That smells of butthurt to me.

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You might need to get your nose checked then :/

The false information you were spreading was:

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

They're essentially wasted as a main tank (and little more than an MP sink for healers once their cooldowns are gone). Keep in mind a lot of groups don't even bring an off tank anymore if there's no tank-swap mechanic, sooo you might have problems there. You will have to really practice where and when you need your cooldowns, because you don't have a lot, and using them inappropriately will reeeeally piss off your healers.

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You were implying that warrior (as a class as in not individual players) is a MP sink for healers when they aren't at all when played properly just like the other two.

About groups not bringing an OT which creates problems that is exclusive to warriors? false...again. Warriors are fine and are actually the best tank to bring along if you have a ninja in your party so they aren't forced into using dancing edge which is a dps loss for them.

You made a statement that warriors don't have a lot of defensive cooldowns which is false yet again. Thrill of the battle, vengeance, inner beast, raw intuition, awareness and even foresight. That's far more than enough considering path alone.

So we've established that you can't comprehend what I've posted and can't even look at what you've posted.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

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And I've explained how you interpretted this "misinformation" wrong (the translation: "You need to be not-amateur and practice your cooldown use more than the other 2 tanks."). Good job ignoring the rest of my posts (the actual relevant parts), and cherry picking through so you don't have to address the bits you don't have answers for. But I'm not going to continue a conversation with an obvious troll. Good day to you ma'am. I will reply to people that're interested in a discussion and not a mindless argument built around calling people illiterate.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

And I've explained how you interpretted this "misinformation" wrong (the translation: "You need to be not-amateur and practice your cooldown use more than the other 2 tanks."). Good job ignoring the rest of my posts (the actual relevant parts), and cherry picking through so you don't have to address the bits you don't have answers for. But I'm not going to continue a conversation with an obvious troll. Good day to you ma'am. I will reply to people that're interested in a discussion and not a mindless argument built around calling people illiterate.

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I didn't interpret anything wrong as you've posted it there in black and white in which I responded point by point. In which you didn't come back with any refutations other than 'Good job ignoring the rest of my posts (the actual relevant parts), and cherry picking through so you don't have to address the bits you don't have answers for'. Care to point those out? Of course you can't because they're either irrelevant or false.

You then resort to do what every person does when they don't have an argument or a valid point to make - ad hominem - calling me a troll which I'm not. I'm just telling it how it is.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

>calling out warriors for hiding behind the enemy whilst defending a class that cowers behind shields

apply yourself.

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Oh sweetie. You poor thing. I never gave you guys the credit of standing behind the enemy. That would imply you wanted to be withing slapping range. It's ok. There's still room behind my shield, even with your other friends.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

Darling, you need to go sit in a corner for a few seconds until you can sound less insane. Unless of course you're trolling on purpose, in which case: well done. They seem to be falling for it. /clap

(guys, her main says DRK, as much as I love PLDs I doubt she actually means the BS she's spouting. For shame taking such obvious bait!).

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Pretty much. I don't get why anyone thought I've actually been serious at this point. It's almost as if I struck a nerve. Most people don't take offense to something blatantly false... it's almost as if calling the OT slot scared children is actually true! I still don't think calling out WARs for hiding behind the other tanks is so bad compared to saying "PLD cowers behind their shield." It feels like I'm not allowed to play the exaggerated game anymore.

It's pretty hilarious how "the best tanks" are so easily tanked.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

blind, mindless wrath

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Um... # of cooldowns actually means very little when it comes to the MT slot. It's what the cooldowns do, for how long, and what they accomplish. This is why DRK has to rely on Living Dead as another cooldown while PLD generally doesnt need to use hallowed in the same situations.

For starters, it's obvious to everyone that WAR can operate in the MT role. But let's actually explain why they aren't common.

1) They are superior in the OT slot because they bring the Storm combos. Storm combos don't stack with eachother, so bringing multiple doesn't help.
1b) WAR would have more chances to shine in the MT slot, but both PLD and DRK lack the same utility WAR does in the OT slot. they both need to be getting hit, where WAR doesn not.

2) stacking classes limits the speed the Limit Break bar fills. Stacking Classes isn't worth it in most cases, if it can be avoided.

3) WARs precious "best DPS" doesn't apply to the MT role, that "honor" actually goes to DRK.

4) WARs cooldowns, specifically Inner Beast, require precision for fights that the other 2 don't require. a higher skill requirement for the same result isn't exactly desirable. To elaborate, Inner Beast blocks 1 thing: the tank buster. Rampart blocks the tank buster, the auto after, and the mechanic after that.
This could actually help WAR fill the MT slot better with the cross-class overhaul we are getting


Shock and surprise, MT and OT choices goes a little deeper than just "damage" or "cooldowns". Hallowed ground is an amazing cooldown, but you don't use it pre-pull, and you dont stack it with rampart.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

1) They are superior in the OT slot because they bring the Storm combos. Storm
combos don't stack with eachother, so bringing multiple doesn't help.
1b) WAR would have more chances to shine in the MT slot, but both PLD and DRK lack the same utility WAR does in the OT slot. they both need to be getting hit, where WAR doesn not.

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So ... did i miss a Patch?
Storm combos are not available anymore when MT-ing?

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

2) stacking classes limits the speed the Limit Break bar fills. Stacking Classes isn't worth it in most cases, if it can be avoided.

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absolutely agreed.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

3) WARs precious "best DPS" doesn't apply to the MT role, that "honor" actually goes to DRK.

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why though?
it's not that, you're not able to swap into Ofstance while Maintanking. Again ...
am i missing a patch here?

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

4) WARs cooldowns, specifically Inner Beast, require precision for fights that the other 2 don't require. a higher skill requirement for the same result isn't exactly desirable. To elaborate, Inner Beast blocks 1 thing: the tank buster. Rampart blocks the tank buster, the auto after, and the mechanic after that.
This could actually help WAR fill the MT slot better with the cross-class overhaul we are getting

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you think?
let's think about it. You can stack up 12 Seconds of inner Beast, ignoring Vengeance and all the other cool Things a WAR brings, and then, if he survives, he can heal himself up with Equilibrium or ... just do nothing and still has more EH than every other Tank. The Tankmechanic of WAR is just "bring it all" ... a lot to heal thouh

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Shock and surprise, MT and OT choices goes a little deeper than just "damage" or "cooldowns". Hallowed ground is an amazing cooldown, but you don't use it pre-pull, and you dont stack it with rampart.

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Hallowed Ground and Raising Death go 10 seconds while Holmgang does 6... that's also a big Thing here.

Nobody actually things that PLDs or DRKs are Weaker. As a common "Rule of Thumb" one could say
Magical Damage: DRK > WAR > PLD
Physical Damage: PLD > WAR > DRK
this, while WAR is bringing real good support.
DRK is doing pretty fine though, PLDS needs a nice push.

besides:
since the hole Content is "muh DPS" there is a Weak Spot when not delivering DPS. Why should anyone Raid with PLD / DRK when he can has WAR / DRK?

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

random gibberish that the OP thinks relates to the points i've made but doesn't...like doesn't at all

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http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...256_nqlyaa.jpg

LMAO what are you even on about?????

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

1) They are superior in the OT slot because they bring the Storm combos. Storm combos don't stack with eachother, so bringing multiple doesn't help.
1b) WAR would have more chances to shine in the MT slot, but both PLD and DRK lack the same utility WAR does in the OT slot. they both need to be getting hit, where WAR doesn not.

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LOL i literally explained in my first post on this thread why warrior excels, never ever did i say warriors should be MT whilst tanking along side the other two. since you can't be bothered to read what i posted, i'll post it for you:

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

...-Cooldowns are sufficient for current content so main tanking as warrior isn't an issue in terms of defense(the reason why people don't like warrior main tanking is because it gains most of it's dps in the off tank position where it is free to use it's defensive CDs for more fell cleaves)...

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

I never said you should make warrior MT. i said warrior would make a better main tank than paladin would in magical damage fights like A12S if we're talking about mitigating magical damage over an extended amount of time. So you missed the point I made. It's cool though, it happens when you don't actually read things properly.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

2) stacking classes limits the speed the Limit Break bar fills. Stacking Classes isn't worth it in most cases, if it can be avoided.

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Please, Pleeeease tell me where i said or even implied stacking classes was a good idea?????

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

3) WARs precious "best DPS" doesn't apply to the MT role, that "honor" actually goes to DRK.

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Again where did i say warrior excelled offensively especially over DRK - A class that I main and know a hefty amount about - in the Main tank position???????? do you even read my posts or just pulling things out of....thin air???

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

4) WARs cooldowns, specifically Inner Beast, require precision for fights that the other 2 don't require. a higher skill requirement for the same result isn't exactly desirable. To elaborate, Inner Beast blocks 1 thing: the tank buster. Rampart blocks the tank buster, the auto after, and the mechanic after that.
This could actually help WAR fill the MT slot better with the cross-class overhaul we are getting

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what??? precision?? yeah obviously you'd know when to use it if you knew the fight at all, it' somthing you use on tank busters and because of how choreographed this game is you should know when tank busters are about to happen so again, it isn't an issue all.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Shock and surprise, MT and OT choices goes a little deeper than just "damage" or "cooldowns". Hallowed ground is an amazing cooldown, but you don't use it pre-pull, and you dont stack it with rampart.

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whaa......??? are you trying to refute something i said or what??? of course party composition is more deeper than MT and OT damage and CDs. when did i ever make the point otherwise?? when did i ever say hallowed isn't amazing? when did i say you should use it prepull? what?????

WHAT????? LOL Do you people even have any comprehensive skills at all????? you're making arguments against points nobody ever made. please stop embarrassing yourself, it's time to stop.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

It's pretty hilarious how "the best tanks" are so easily tanked.

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well they have a dartboard in they soulstone right now so is pretty understandable anything about this can make it angry if they dont catch it at the first try, is you say WAR and NERF together they go to come to release fell cleaves like crazy.

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Originally Posted by CafPow

So ... did i miss a Patch?
Storm combos are not available anymore when MT-ing?

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i think he is meaning the capacity to keep both storms effects and high DPS at the same time, that huge extra DPS WARs have in OT can be call utility in some way bcs are a thing that the other 2 cant achievement.

Any tank is capable of tanking any content. It is designed that way for a reason. As such, groups choose thier tank on the only meaningful metric left to them. The highest dps combo is DRK/WAR. It doesn't matter if they buff paladins defensive abilities in SB, as long as they are behind DRK in dps due to the easy class tax. I would level war first, as you have already lvled drk, paladin is just going to feel like a boring version of it.

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Originally Posted by shao32

i think he is meaning the capacity to keep both storms effects and high DPS at the same time, that huge extra DPS WARs have in OT can be call utility in some way bcs are a thing that the other 2 cant achievement.

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maybe but it would not be the "most DPS Rotation" theoretically.
Only Storm-Debuff that gives 10% more Slashingdamage, the other one is a good support but does the least DMG of all Combos and doesn't increase anything ^^

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Originally Posted by CafPow

maybe but it would not be the "most DPS Rotation" theoretically.
Only Storm-Debuff that gives 10% more Slashingdamage, the other one is a good support but does the least DMG of all Combos and doesn't increase anything ^^

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No is not, but pay that 40 that extra potency per combo for better MT hate control and raíd mitigation to help healers to have better Windows to do DPS is far better in my opinion.
Using butche combo can be a problem at the end reducing raid DPS is forcé MT yo dealt more agro combos

yeah sure, considering all, it is better.

i was just referring to potency but it's not just all about potency so you're correct ^^

I can feel my brain cells dying from some of these posts.

Level both.

They all share gear at 60 anyways so have some fun and figure out what you like more, if you get into raiding before SB roles around find out what your group needs and help fill that role.

I dont care what pros and cons are and some people call us delusional pld. Like hold it:)
But i enjoy pld bcuse its tanky, fun and sheltron is bae with its proc. and who doesnt love their last anima Lux wep...

Play Pali cause honestly it's the greatest feeling when people see you and go ''ugh Paladin'' and then you beat half the DPS there in dps. Kinda loses it's magic on WAR given WAR is literally just a DPS with provoke

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Originally Posted by LilLemay

Play Pali cause honestly it's the greatest feeling when people see you and go ''ugh Paladin'' and then you beat half the DPS there in dps. Kinda loses it's magic on WAR given WAR is literally just a DPS with provoke

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WAR is literally just dps that can have over 50k HP, tons of mitigation, insane aggro generation, AND a provoke. Do you stop to think before saying something stupid? Honestly, if your dps is beating "half the dps," you're playing with baddies.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

WAR is literally just dps that can have over 50k HP, tons of mitigation, insane aggro generation, AND a provoke. Do you stop to think before saying something stupid? Honestly, if your dps is beating "half the dps," you're playing with baddies.

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I never said that WAR wasn't gonna beat a paladin every time, It's kind of expected of WAR. Whenever a WAR beats the dps everyone just kinda shrugs and goes ''yeah that's WAR for you'' whenever you beat dps as a Paladin it means alot more. or less of the dps you're playing with.

So I'll ask, do you stop to read what i'm saying before you stupidly assume I'm bashing on WAR? Especially since you just restated the last sentence of my post with more detail?

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Originally Posted by Hierro

PLD mains never cease to amaze me with how delusional they are. Contrary to popular belief, anything a PLD can tank, so can a WAR.

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Up until Zurvan does Demon's Claw.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

PLD mains never cease to amaze me with how delusional they are. Contrary to popular belief, anything a PLD can tank, so can a WAR.

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http://i.imgur.com/gcYASQl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NsMhDRz.jpg

I've been looking for FFXIV based webcomics and really like the page you posted. Please tell me the name of this comic and provide the url! :):):)

Anyways, it's sad to see this thread degenerate into trash talk. Can't we just stay on topic?

Paladins are good tanks. They are simple to play. They don't do as much damage as the other tanks because their focus is on damage mitigation.

Warriors are good tanks also. They are not as simple to play but are both fun and rewarding when played well. They do good damage and have decent self-healing.

Can't comment on dark knights. I've never played one. :p

http://i.imgur.com/kDkv1Ye.jpg?2

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Originally Posted by Llus

If you're not MT as DRK your doing it wrong. DRK gets MP from taking damage (blood price), more MP = more DA + Souleater & DA + Carve and Spit. They also proc reprisal and low blow timer reset only when parrying an attack. Even if you're paired with a PLD you should be MT as PLD's proc for shield swipe isn't near as good as DRK's reprisal & low blow and they can stay in sword oath most of the fight (only problem with them is their damage combo includes an enmity generation skill and you'll have to power slash more)

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I know, but if I'm to MT, I go as PLD. I'll accept MT as DRK if there's two of us there, or there's a WAR with me. I don't optimize on my tanks, either, so when I'm MT as DRK, I'm in Grit for most (if not all) of the fight, because my reality is this:

NINs seem to want to use Shadewalker strategically, so I can never drop tank stance after the pull due to the high burst damage from the rest of the group. Had an argument when the group were all emo and wanted me to drop Shield Oath as MT for added dps, but the NIN wouldn't Shade me or hit the WAR with Smokescreen (the WAR prioritized his BB combo since it has the highest damage potency).

To play it safe, I stay in tank stance.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

This is interesting to me, since the first comment that even mentions anything between Warriors and Paladins are comments that warriors cannot do. You do not have cover, you do not have tempered will, and as far as I can tell Zurvan Ex is the one fight that Warriors aren't being brought along in anyways.

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Which is lame, because the only reason behind it is that people do not stack for Demon's Claw. I never saw the reason NOT to stack when there's a WAR in the party.