More Customize Skill

Saying it's a false choice seems like a pointless statement. It's like saying they may as well not put any mechanics in fights because we'll just watch guides. Of course we will, it's still fun to do though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

snip

---

My statement was generalized because I have played countless MMO's over the years, and every single goddamn one runs the same course.

At the start, and in early levels, everyone loves building their character and exploring options. Eventually, the playerbase gets skilled enough to find what builds and strategies are better than others. The meta forms and stabilizes, only changing with balance patches.

Player customization is a hollow promise.

This argument about theorycrafting is valid, but it has its limits. It would certainly be prohibitive to allow broad, free-form customization--i.e., Freelancer/Traveler would be impossible--but that doesn't mean customization is impossible. The issue is making the choices powerful enough to be valuable and restricted enough to be competitive. Suppose, for instance, you're playing a healer and have to choose between Swiftcast and Cleric Stance. You can equip one (and only one), and you can't change once the duty starts. Some fights might be easier with one or the other, but you're ultimately trading a very valuable cooldown for a significant DPS increase. I suspect even among a relatively small sample we could get disagreement on which is more important to a healer. It might be skewed, and high level play would likely default to one "optimal" option, but the choice would by no means be illusory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That is not toxicity, but simple pragmatism. If it can be mathematically proven one stat or skill customization is superior, you refusing to adapt is pure stubbornness. It's akin to arguing Dragoons should max out SkS or White Mage shouldn't bother with accuracy even if they intent to DPS. You can do it, but you're only hurting yourself and your raid group.

---

Pragmatic approaches aren't always fun though. I'm all about fun. And in my experience the math, all the buffs, exponential coordination, peerless execution of mechanics, lining up every player's rotation of skills together isn't that much fun to me.

More grating and tedious if anything. But don't let me get you green behind the gills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Pragmatic approaches aren't always fun though. I'm all about fun. And in my experience the math, all the buffs, exponential coordination, peerless execution of mechanics, lining up every player's rotation of skills together isn't that much fun to me.

More grating and tedious if anything. But don't let me get you green behind the gills.

---

Fun is great, don't get me wrong. I'm sure every Blizzard Wizard I've seen in DF was having tons of fun. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Fun is great, don't get me wrong. I'm sure every Blizzard Wizard I've seen in DF was having tons of fun. :P

---

I'll take a BlizWiz over a loldrg any day of the week. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Pragmatic approaches aren't always fun though. I'm all about fun. And in my experience the math, all the buffs, exponential coordination, peerless execution of mechanics, lining up every player's rotation of skills together isn't that much fun to me.

More grating and tedious if anything. But don't let me get you green behind the gills.

---

Sure, that may be fun for you, but what about the other 7 people you are with. Is your fun getting int he way of their fun? Were tey happy with how things were and having fun with it until BOOM, they have to deal with all these people making their lives harder "for fun".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Savage raiding isn't fun at all if that's what you are getting at.

As for regular content it becomes unfun when many players fail at the same mechanics over and over and refuse to learn.

But that's another discussion entirely. Here people are asking for customization, and yet most will flock to what we have is good enough, that even if customization was offered nothing would change...so why change it at all?

---

Who said anything about savage?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Sure, that may be fun for you, but what about the other 7 people you are with. Is your fun getting int he way of their fun? Were tey happy with how things were and having fun with it until BOOM, they have to deal with all these people making their lives harder "for fun".

---

Savage raiding isn't fun at all if that's what you are getting at.

As for regular content it becomes unfun when many players fail at the same mechanics over and over and refuse to learn.

But that's another discussion entirely. Here people are asking for customization, and yet most will flock to what we have is good enough, that even if customization was offered nothing would change...so why change it at all?

This isnt and wont be limited to JUST savage raiding.

Take a look at Dun Scaith and tell me you want some BlizWiz's in that mess...

I know I wouldn't.

Under the current model of DPS checks and Enrages, customization would be crazy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Optimization does not inherently mean people will perform their job better. You can take all your stat point on Bard, toss them into STR and still blow someone away if their rotation sucks. Stats only account for so much at the moment. If they ever moved towards a skill tree system, those stats become significantly more important since it could impact things like say, making Blood for Blood have additional damage increased for less defense. If a change like that proves to be "the best" in terms of overall risk/gain, you will be expected to take it. We're already seeing it with the current meta widely shunning White Mage, Paladin and Monk. When the buffs to Astro came, White Mage clears dropped nearly 50%. That's the raid community tossing it aside because Astro is simply a better White Mage now.

---

To be clear, I meant not only those who equipped an "optimal" build, but also played it in its (basic) "optimal" form, (e.g. following the suggested priorities, etc.). I didn't outperform these people just because I was better at handling mechanics under pressure, or made fewer rotational mistakes. Its because either I used a build that allowed slightly more leeway in order to capitalize on opportunities (thereby especially increasing my contribution to the important parts of a given fight), or understood by the very nature of having crafted my own build for a particular fight that adaptations would be necessary, when, and why. Now, XIV can't really emblemize those considerations given that it's never had much by way of customization; heck, even by Mists, WoW's only been emblematic of it on a class by class or spec by spec basis. But the inquiry that goes into building those specs with particular contexts in mind, even if the same build must be used for wildly different ones due to adjustment constraints, does tend to make better players, especially if they have an understanding of the other classes in their party. The manic tunnel-vision of "approved specs only" rarely does so well in that regard. (Again, this being the case when there is actual customization to be had, not only a semblance of it kept for nostalgia.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dragonseth07

Player customization is a hollow promise.

---

By that degree, so too is "an interesting world setting" within a given MMO. I mean, gameplay's just going to end up being a boss arena accessible to the (slight minority) of players playing the "real" game, right?

It may be unprecedented, and a developer's promise to make it may just be sweet nothings, but it itself is not a hollow promise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pence

Sorry, but this would be a waste for PVE. Customization never works. Someone will always find the optimal loadout and everyone will roll it. Suddenly there's no customization, just people being kicked for yet another way they can be bads.

---

Game like Guild Wars 2, Wildstar and others like them, you can have a custom-like, just make it so you can set 15~ skills over 40+ (and set 10 more passives traits), depending on what you're are doing you're gonna change the skill set you've made. And make it so some skills can depend on your playstyle.

Actually i'm really tired having so much skills, every classes have almost the same type of skills (combo / dot / debuff / etc...), why not reducing the skillbars while having more choice for different gameplay ?
Giving also "Stance" to switch bars.

Also, like i said, there's to much skills per job... with the addition of pvp skills and the lack of switching skillbar UI....

But all of that would required probably a revamp of stats weight and stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nexxus

Game like Guild Wars 2, Wildstar and others like them, you can have a custom-like, just make it so you can set 15~ skills over 40+ (and set 10 more passives traits), depending on what you're are doing you're gonna change the skill set you've made. And make it so some skills can depend on your playstyle.

Actually i'm really tired having so much skills, every classes have almost the same type of skills (combo / dot / debuff / etc...), why not reducing the skillbars while having more choice for different gameplay ?
Giving also "Stance" to switch bars.

Also, like i said, there's to much skills per job... with the addition of pvp skills and the lack of switching skillbar UI....

But all of that would required probably a revamp of stats weight and stuff.

---

GW2, Wildstar and other games have customisation as you say but in group content, particularly difficult group content, the number of viable builds is actually pretty limited. In the end you don't have many choices if you want to do the content effectively and not be carried.

Yoshi P has said that he would prefer to spend the development time that would be taken creating and balancing that type of customisation on making new jobs with completely different mechanics and themes to allow diversity of play styles. In that regard I actually tend to agree. I would prefer to get a new Job than customisation for an existing one.

what i'm saying is that i want less skills for 4.0 not more... they could merge some of them or... doing a bar where you can set some of your skills.

Too many variables here. I think SE would rather keep it simple. Reason why they are getting rid of crossclass skills

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pence

Sorry, but this would be a waste for PVE. Customization never works. Someone will always find the optimal loadout and everyone will roll it. Suddenly there's no customization, just people being kicked for yet another way they can be bads.

---

Even if this were true, it has become a lazy response used to shut down all conversation.

Customization is possible, particularly if the choices only affect utility a la guild wars 2 or WoW's lower tier talent choices. The only places where there is a "best" choice is where it directly affects dps, and even then sometimes there is enough leeway that you can pick whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

Saying it's a false choice seems like a pointless statement. It's like saying they may as well not put any mechanics in fights because we'll just watch guides. Of course we will, it's still fun to do though.

---

http://i.imgur.com/qNAeyrQ.jpg

No one is talking about bosses or their mechanics. Just because you read a guide doesn't mean the mechanics are pointless. If Zurvan EX is any indicator, people can know the mechanics *cough* SOAR *cough* and still fail them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Pragmatic approaches aren't always fun though. I'm all about fun. And in my experience the math, all the buffs, exponential coordination, peerless execution of mechanics, lining up every player's rotation of skills together isn't that much fun to me.
More grating and tedious if anything. But don't let me get you green behind the gills.

---

Then what difference does it make? They aren't going to design a whole system that is completely meaningless given most content is varying degrees of easy. It has to take Extremes and Savage into consideration, which will prompt theory crafting. Once that happens, you'll see one build pull widely ahead and people push it on the community. Look no further than STR accessories on tanks. It began as something hardcore raiders did, then a choice between whether you were still practicing or progressing to inevitably seeing VIT accessories shunned entirely. It's not whether this will happen but how quickly a new meta forms that people follow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Look no further than STR accessories on tanks. It began as something hardcore raiders did, then a choice between whether you were still practicing or progressing to inevitably seeing VIT accessories shunned entirely. It's not whether this will happen but how quickly a new meta forms that people follow.

---

I can't believe I forgot the plague of STR tanks during Pre-3.2. It seemed to attract the people who didn't know how to play their class, thinking that using STR instead of VIT made them better tanks over night. It was very easy to tell the good ones from the bad ones when the first pulls started.

If you were a healer during that era you would prefer a bad VIT tank over a bad STR tank any day of the week.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

I can't believe I forgot the plague of STR tanks during Pre-3.2. It seemed to attract the people who didn't know how to play their class, thinking that using STR instead of VIT made them better tanks over night. It was very easy to tell the good ones from the bad ones when the first pulls started.

If you were a healer during that era you would prefer a bad VIT tank over a bad STR tank any day of the week.

---

because vit comes with useless stats like party and does not increase ur dps. Its also very ez to tell a good player from a bad player if they don't know that u need every bit of dps to pass A3S wall and only need certain amount of hp to survive tank busters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

I can't believe I forgot the plague of STR tanks during Pre-3.2. It seemed to attract the people who didn't know how to play their class, thinking that using STR instead of VIT made them better tanks over night. It was very easy to tell the good ones from the bad ones when the first pulls started.

If you were a healer during that era you would prefer a bad VIT tank over a bad STR tank any day of the week.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SundayTrash

because vit comes with useless stats like party and does not increase ur dps. Its also very ez to tell a good player from a bad player if they don't know that u need every bit of dps to pass A3S wall and only need certain amount of hp to survive tank busters.

---

There was a huge [skill] difference between tanks that were raiding and actively trying to clear versus tanks that were not raiding, were not as good, but followed the meta and caused issues as a whole.

As a healer doing that era, it was an ill-begotten nightmare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

[Giant "Red Herring" Image]

No one is talking about bosses or their mechanics. Just because you read a guide doesn't mean the mechanics are pointless. If Zurvan EX is any indicator, people can know the mechanics *cough* SOAR *cough* and still fail them.

---

1. Customization at it's worse --> Look up the guide or entry is barred.

2. Mechanics, post-guides --> Look up the guide or entry is barred.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

There was a huge [skill] difference between tanks that were raiding and actively trying to clear versus tanks that were not raiding, were not as good, but followed the meta and caused issues as a whole.

As a healer doing that era, it was an ill-begotten nightmare.

---

Not really even if they use vit accessories, that extra health is not necessary outside of savage since its not gonna increase ur overall CD stuff don't hit hard outside of EX and Savage, from my experience I can still heal and dps. Maybe the faults lays in the healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

No one is talking about bosses or their mechanics. Just because you read a guide doesn't mean the mechanics are pointless. If Zurvan EX is any indicator, people can know the mechanics *cough* SOAR *cough* and still fail them.

---

People are talking about customization being pointless because eventually people will figure out optimal solutions, i.e. beat it.
That happens with all content though, that's pretty much the game... "oh no, people will figure out the best abilities required to beat a piece of content then work towards doing that, what a waste of time!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

There was a huge [skill] difference between tanks that were raiding and actively trying to clear versus tanks that were not raiding, were not as good, but followed the meta and caused issues as a whole.

As a healer doing that era, it was an ill-begotten nightmare.

---

there was an added problem to Vit back in Gordias as well. Because Vit didn't impact AP at all, you actually experienced poor emnity generation growth as you geared up. So the vit tanks back in the day also tended to have Emnity issue in addition to DPS problems. So they were tankier(?) but they couldn't generate emnity for crap.

Well, we should put it this way: Customization can work to some degree.

We see that with jobs already. After all, our jobs are a form of customization already, and for the most part, the devs do a good job making sure that you don't get shunned for picking or not picking any particular job. On the flip side, cross class skills are an utter failure in that regard. So it's safe to say: As long as the performance of two or more options remains within a certain delta value, customization can work.

The issue is that in practice, devs are only humans too and they probably aren't theorycrafting fight by fight. In fact, considering they didn't even see healers dealing damage becoming meta, they probably aren't theorycrafting at all. It is likely to assume that the more complex their game becomes, the more likely they are to lose track and control of that performance delta. And once they do, deciding which job to take might end up a decision much like deciding which cross class skill to take. That is what we don't want to happen.

So the real issue is: How do we ensure performance differences stay within a certain value without doing very complicated math every time we want to introduce or change anything?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

Well, we should put it this way: Customization can work to some degree.
?

---

Thats exactly the problem. The only games that get away with radical customization have to relax their grip completely on balance and pretty much hand it to the community + meta to deal with. The FFXIV devs work really hard to ensure their fights can be cleared more or less as intended with a wide variety of jobs. I would argue take a game like DOTA 2, with its formidable resources and zero money-making pressure, cannot attain perfect balance so instead they tweak and shape the existing meta (but unlike FFXIV, they don't dictate it).

Its two differing philosophies of designing content. Either design content around the existing classes/systems or release content as is and shape the meta instead that naturally forms around your content.

It would have to be exceptionally balanced in the sense that putting points in skill A = the same (or similar) amount of damage/mitigation/special effect as skill B.

Blade & Soul did this reasonably well.

Unfortunately most games don't do it well, and you end up having a standard skill build that is optimal which equates to the illusion that there is customization but really there isn't.. It also can't be insanely impactful - otherwise becomes far too difficult to balance.

The closest thing to skill customization I can ever see working in this game is something we already have - equip a different weapon and boom! suddenly you have a completely different skill tree.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

snip

---

Players merely following the one build meta at the time. And boy did the lack of skill really show. You can min max content if you want but if you can't play your job at a high level it wasn't worth it. And because of everyone chasing the STR meta stats were nerfed to force Tanks to go after VIT once again. Good job player base!

Thats what I miss about old school mmo like ragnorak, even WoW and Diablo 2, they did the skills tree really well like having to spec into it even access the skill and passive and investing points into it to increase its effectiveness.
Also the one stats per class is getting very stale, I miss the wide range skill per class that work off of different stats point.

ESO did this (I only played the beta). The idea was you could be any class and equip any equipment and put your points into anything as long as they matched a certain theme (like Dragon Knight). Before too long, even in beta, people were shouting that you needed to have X skill build or don't bother entering the dungeon.

You think "skip soar or disband" is salt. Just imagine what it would be if there were many different customizable skill trees!

Although I agree, something needs to be done to break up the monotony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Thats what I miss about old school mmo like ragnorak, even WoW and Diablo 2, they did the skills tree really well like having to spec into it even access the skill and passive and investing points into it to increase its effectiveness.
Also the one stats per class is getting very stale, I miss the wide range skill per class that work off of different stats point.

---

I remember WoW's old skill trees fondly. I also remember the day I graduated from the baby levels and realized my build was shit, and if I wanted to be competitive, I needed to use one that I hated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SundayTrash

...they did the skills tree really well...

---

Ugh... Those two words... "skill trees". Nope, in my opinion... no thank you. I've played enough games with skill trees that have a choice path for you to follow like this and I've quit them all for two reasons:

1) The trees make you choose specific a specific build that best fits the content you're currently doing, but if you go to do something else you need to respec which usually takes time and has a cost associated with it. That means if you're going from one fight in a raid to another you may have to stop and adjust because: "the last boss required a lot of AoE to deal with adds, but this boss needs high-damage single target skills to meet the DPS check".
2) Skill tree adjustments can cause point resets in MMOs which, depending on the size of the tree and how it's set up, means that patch days you could end up spending a whole hour trying to rebuild your skills to what they were. Even if you manage that, the likelihood is that your bars will never end up the same and your character doesn't play the way your used to making it a learning curve to play your character again on each patch.

Remember Merit Points in FFXI? Same concept but there was an optimal choice. You were given 5-8 options to spend merit points with a cap of 10 total, and each category had a cap of 5, so you could max out 2 skills or put points in all 8. Ultimately the best option for most jobs was to max out 2 skills because a few were amazing. DRG had Angon for example, an ability that when used reduced the target's defense by 20% for 90 seconds. It was excruciatingly useful because most similar skills were much weaker (5-10%) and could be resisted or miss, but Angon was guaranteed to land. This made DRG's other merit skills pointless to spend points in (mostly because they were crappy though). Other jobs had good skills, like RDM, which had 5 higher tier spells to choose from. They could max out 2 spells to 5/5, or spend 10 merits points and unlock all 5 spells, putting 2 points in each, etc...Ultimately 5/5 was the way to go because some were more effective than others.

Think of this way, instead of best build and most optimal choice, what if u can spec a dps into a off tank instead of using 2 tank, or u can spec a OT more into a dps, same goes for Heal into more dps oriented.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Think of this way, instead of best build and most optimal choice, what if u can spec a dps into a off tank instead of using 2 tank, or u can spec a OT more into a dps, same goes for Heal into more dps oriented.

---

There will still be an optimal choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

There will still be an optimal choice.

---

true there will still be an optimal choice, but now u have different build of playstyle that are neccessary in a raid comp, like having 2 tank, one can be spec more into offtank build and the other into more maintank build, same with dps like spec into foe can turn it into physcial resist down, while the other bard can spec into another area, so having 2 of the same classes wouldn't hurt. the truth is, u can't always get what u want, like how the current meta is brd,drg,mch,nin,drk,war,ast, and sch, how many static have u been in that is missing 1 or 2 classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SundayTrash

true there will still be an optimal choice, but now u have different build of playstyle that are neccessary in a raid comp, like having 2 tank, one can be spec more into offtank build and the other into more maintank build, same with dps like spec into foe can turn it into physcial resist down, while the other bard can spec into another area, so having 2 of the same classes wouldn't hurt. the truth is, u can't always get what u want, like how the current meta is brd,drg,mch,nin,drk,war,ast, and sch, how many static have u been in that is missing 1 or 2 classes.

---

You will always be missing 1 or 2 classes (more now) because there are more than 8 jobs. I raid as a PLd, and it doesnt stop me from clearing stuff. Also, I almost never see a bard and a mch in the same group, usually its one or the other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Think of this way, instead of best build and most optimal choice, what if u can spec a dps into a off tank instead of using 2 tank, or u can spec a OT more into a dps, same goes for Heal into more dps oriented.

---

My big question here is, how do you change spec? Can you change it through a menu in the instance before the pull? Do you need to use an item or currency to respec? Do you need to visit an NPC to respec?

If you can't change these on the fly in the instance what you will invariably get are 2 tanks (for 8 mans) in DF going either, "We're both spec'ed for Main Tank." Or, "We're both spec'ed for DPS." For the fact that you can not know whom you will be paired with and how their setups will be, it is difficult to know how to handle the content. It also means that the Devs have to work harder to try and make every spec for every makeup viable. It's untenable and unrealistic to expect that with the DF. People have set builds already and don't know how to play them. This would just make everything worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You will always be missing 1 or 2 classes (more now) because there are more than 8 jobs. I raid as a PLd, and it doesnt stop me from clearing stuff. Also, I almost never see a bard and a mch in the same group, usually its one or the other.

---

Let ur a pld and don't have a nin and war, but have a mnk instead, what I told u that can spec into shield swap to work off without blocking, and dark knight can spec into delirium to be turn into slashing debuff instead, so u really do have a choice depending on ur group comp and can't base it off whats the most optimal build.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malzian

My big question here is, how do you change spec? Can you change it through a menu in the instance before the pull? Do you need to use an item or currency to respec? Do you need to visit an NPC to respec?

If you can't change these on the fly in the instance what you will invariably get are 2 tanks (for 8 mans) in DF going either, "We're both spec'ed for Main Tank." Or, "We're both spec'ed for DPS." For the fact that you can not know whom you will be paired with and how their setups will be, it is difficult to know how to handle the content. It also means that the Devs have to work harder to try and make every spec for every makeup viable. It's untenable and unrealistic to expect that with the DF. People have set builds already and don't know how to play them. This would just make everything worse.

---

make it like u can go into ur skills page and u can add and subtracts points on each skill, as for 8 man content hard mode those can be steamroll through and for savage and ex, it would mostly be done in static or with people that akready have a idea how the game and mechanic work.