Will the model of content change in 4.0?

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Sigh. Really wish people stop using this strawman argument.

The game is becoming very stale in content flow. You can predict exactly what we're getting for the next 2 years if we wanted to, with the occasional Diadem or PoTD every year or so.

Not saying there should be new interesting things every single patch, but it could do with some freshening up.

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He's ok with whatever same stuff you throw at him

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Originally Posted by Xyno

1) SE can try to change this MAJOR content more often. For example, we had Crystal Tower (raid alliance) in 2.x. In 3.x SE could change it for something new and in 4.x alliance raid would come back. Or we had 4-dungeons for roulette to farm tomestones- it is the MAJOR way. In 3.x SE could change it for another kind of activity

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What mass-player content is worth enough that it can replace a 24 man raid in your eyes?
And what about the 8 man raid? Why should it not replaced with something else in one of the expansions?

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Originally Posted by Schark

New stuff on top of the old cycle. The dungeons, raids, MSQ... etc. is going to be the same.

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This is how it should be. New stuff without throwing out the old stuff people expect to play.

honestly would be fine with them raising the weekly tome cap to somewhere like 600 pr any higher is cool too. As far as how things are predictable thats never going to change, Ill give the new combat system a chance, but ive got no expectation that we wont have a tome grind with weekly cap, or a raid with weekly cap - perhaps we'll see blitzball enter the GS and itll probably offer little reason to do it besides a title or glamour, but the cycles will still stay the same, or similar

Here is the thing. New content has inherent risk. Players might not like it and just might not play it. Diadem is a perfect example. To free up development to make the Diadem they scaled back the amount of resources they spent on the new dungeons. That's why we got two dungeons instead of 3. However no one liked Diadem. The only reason people did it was because it was efficient, not fun and people didn't even play it the way it was intended. The moment it became less efficient, the place became a empty except for crafters.

This is the issue. They have to stop making one tried and tested content type to create another and if the new content doesn't satisfy it's a major issue. This is why they stick generally to a formula, testing the waters with new things every couple of patches to see if people enjoy the new stuff. This is slow but its also safe. This is good. This game doesn't need another 3.1.

They explained that they changed it to two, so they could add 2 EX and 1 new piece of content i.e Diadem, Potd, Aquapolis.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Sigh. Really wish people stop using this strawman argument.

The game is becoming very stale in content flow. You can predict exactly what we're getting for the next 2 years if we wanted to, with the occasional Diadem or PoTD every year or so.

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OK then. Predict 'exactly' what we will get over the next 2 years. Since you are being exact, I'd like dungeon names, boss names and which mechanics they will use as well as the same information about the raids and if it's not too much trouble, perhaps you could also tell us what's coming in the Gold Saucer too?

Oh, wait, you can't do that, because they only way of being exact is to say we'll get one or more dungeons, 8-man raid every other patch and 24-man alliance raids on the odd patches. That's not very exact.

Complaining about the format of updates in this way is rather like complaining that every day you have breakfast, lunch and dinner, and you're sick of that format and can predict exactly what you'll get for the next 2 years.

You can't predict exactly what we'll get, you can predict broadly, but then you can predict that broadly with regard to just about any online game update.

I'd love if some of the Alliance Raids came with Explorable New Zones. I'd have enjoyed walking around Dun Scaith or the Weeping City of Mhach.

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Originally Posted by Vexander

I'd love if some of the Alliance Raids came with Explorable New Zones. I'd have enjoyed walking around Dun Scaith or the Weeping City of Mhach.

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I think that is called Hunt

I would like the final boss from each dungeon duplicated into an Extreme trial, in addition to the standard Extremes we would get. Even if we then ended up with multiple Extreme trials per patch with the same ilvl that would be fine. Think about the final dungeon bosses and how unique most of them are but are never seen again. That way I can feel not so guilty about only doing expert dungeons only once or twice.

I hope they get rid of that damn RNG! >_>

It makes people Toxic in my opinion and its the biggest funkillerin the whole game!

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

I hope they get rid of that damn RNG! >_>

It makes people Toxic in my opinion and its the biggest funkillerin the whole game!

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ROTFLMAO! An MMORPG without RNG? That's like donuts without coffee, or burgers without fries...

I mean I'm here for the story as long as it goes I'll be here. Oh and Hildy love me some Hidley quests.

For each patch we'll get 2 dungeons, a trial, an 8 man or 24 man and something experimental.

If one of the 'something experimental' really takes off it may eventually replace one of the former patch regulars.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

ROTFLMAO! An MMORPG without RNG? That's like donuts without coffee, or burgers without fries...

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I generally have those separately...
But can I order an MMO in the same fashion?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

ROTFLMAO! An MMORPG without RNG? That's like donuts without coffee, or burgers without fries...

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Coffee is disgusting and smells like a corpse when left to rot and a Burger is much tastier when it isn't served with unsalted fries.

Grump grump.

"FFXIV give you stuff to do for a couple of weeks then change its name and skin, add more ilvl and repeat it every 3 to 6 months" I hate the whole slapping a new coat of paint on content they have going and really really hate the whole 1 item a week as well in raids, its not really rewarding in any way for the people who stick around getting each piece whereas a person can just wait a few months and get the same set you just spent collecting week after week in just 2 days or so.

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Originally Posted by DarkSlayerGrimm

"FFXIV give you stuff to do for a couple of weeks then change its name and skin, add more ilvl and repeat it every 3 to 6 months" I hate the whole slapping a new coat of paint on content they have going and really really hate the whole 1 item a week as well in raids, its not really rewarding in any way for the people who stick around getting each piece whereas a person can just wait a few months and get the same set you just spent collecting week after week in just 2 days or so.

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Then you're gonna love the expansion because it's bound to stick to the same recipe for success.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Then you're gonna love the expansion because it's bound to stick to the same recipe for success.

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As much as I wish he hadn't, I believe he did say in an interview that it was not going to change for 4.0.

I find the current issue is less of how the content is currently deployed but rather how item level is being handled. Rather than providing players with consistent opportunity to better their gear, we have been provided with new sets every 6 months gated by weekly currency caps. I personally like how WoW: Legion handles gear.

I'm not so displeased with the predictability of patches as I am with longevity of stuff that comes from them. I wish they would take a more horizontal approach than a vertical approach where we basically start over every 6 months. More versatility in character development and gear selection (additional effects, set bonuses, pieces being more desirable regardless of ilvl) would be wonderful.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

OK then. Predict 'exactly' what we will get over the next 2 years. Since you are being exact, I'd like dungeon names, boss names and which mechanics they will use as well as the same information about the raids and if it's not too much trouble, perhaps you could also tell us what's coming in the Gold Saucer too?

Oh, wait, you can't do that, because they only way of being exact is to say we'll get one or more dungeons, 8-man raid every other patch and 24-man alliance raids on the odd patches. That's not very exact.

Complaining about the format of updates in this way is rather like complaining that every day you have breakfast, lunch and dinner, and you're sick of that format and can predict exactly what you'll get for the next 2 years.

You can't predict exactly what we'll get, you can predict broadly, but then you can predict that broadly with regard to just about any online game update.

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This is a little bit nitpicky; you're focusing on one word when you (and most everyone, I'd wager) know exactly what the OP is talking about. The content flow in FFXIV *is* very stale and predictable, because the core aspects of each version update are known in advance.

Anyway, as others have said, including myself, the primary issue is twofold: stale content flow, and artificially limited content at the 'end-game' edges of FFXIV. It's these two factors working in conjunction that are so harmful.

For instance, Duty Roulette: Expert invariably has only two dungeons in it at any given time. An update comes out, two new dungeons are added, but at the end of the day, Expert still has only two dungeons available. That's terrible design; it's not just that two dungeons is relatively bland from a content perspective, it's that they also replace previous content completely in the Roulette.

Primals and Raids (both Alliance and otherwise) work in the same fashion. Because of the continuous iLevel creep, the problem of receiving only a small-ish chunk of content each update is compounded by the fact that it immediately renders the previous version irrelevant. So, people who are grinding for gear basically feel a 'hamster wheel' effect; the maps are different, but the grind doesn't vary in any meaningful way.

There doesn't need to be some large wholesale change in the core patch content. There needs to be a few more 'experimental' types of content than we've seen, and they need to be better thought-out than Hunts or Diadem, but by and large, the changes can be relatively incremental. The catch is, SE *must* slow down the rate of content expiration. The end-game grind right now, in this period between 3.5 and Stormblood, should involve every bit of Alexander. Farming / participating in Alliance Raids should involve each of the three available Raids (Void Ark, Mhach, Dun Scaith), rather than just the most recent one. Expert Roulettes and Level 60 Roulettes should be one and the same, so that people still have a bit of variety when grinding Tomes.

I don't care how they do it. There are options for keeping content relevant; side-grade gear, upgrade gear with required items dropping in previous dungeons or raids, probably other ideas, too. But it needs to be done. It's important to a lot of people, regardless of any individual's specific feelings. Any excuses made for the current system are tantamount to sticking your head in the sand.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

For instance, Duty Roulette: Expert invariably has only two dungeons in it at any given time. An update comes out, two new dungeons are added, but at the end of the day, Expert still has only two dungeons available. That's terrible design; it's not just that two dungeons is relatively bland from a content perspective, it's that they also replace previous content completely in the Roulette.

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This. It's like they need to ensure us that, "alright, I know we have to try to meet genre expectations for producing new content, but don't worry—it's in no way cumulative; you will never have to experience more than two dungeons per tier, and you'll never have to choose which of the two unless you've procrastinated horribly on your daily rewards."

They know the ilvl jumps in advance, surely they could plan the side dungeon so that every ilvl jump it also gets a jump to keep it relevant and keep it in the expert roulette.

The current method of content worked in 2.0 because there was much more added. Just gonna say this... 2 dungeons is not a roulette it's a coin toss and a bad one at that

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Originally Posted by Enyalios

The current method of content worked in 2.0 because there was much more added. Just gonna say this... 2 dungeons is not a roulette it's a coin toss and a bad one at that

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as much as i agree, the whole point of those dungeons id doing them 3x and capping your tomestones, to whichh no further growth is possible for 5 more days. Its ludicrous just too keep everyone player "on the same page" why would anyone login more than 2 days a week if the cap os reached with no incentive to login for 5 more days?

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

as much as i agree, the whole point of those dungeons id doing them 3x and capping your tomestones, to whichh no further growth is possible for 5 more days. Its ludicrous just too keep everyone player "on the same page" why would anyone login more than 2 days a week if the cap os reached with no incentive to login for 5 more days?

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pretty much my feeling as well. I get everything worth doing done by thursday. capped tomes, weekly raids, etc. After i cap tomes, i can't even bring myself to do expert roulette until reset. No real incentive to log in the rest of the week except to maybe help with a primal run for an hour or something.

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Originally Posted by madolyn

pretty much my feeling as well. I get everything worth doing done by thursday. capped tomes, weekly raids, etc. After i cap tomes, i can't even bring myself to do expert roulette until reset. No real incentive to log in the rest of the week except to maybe help with a primal run for an hour or something.

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I totally feel you there, I
m still going to rock SB but if the pattern persists, I wont be as consistant with my subscriptions

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Originally Posted by Jandor

They know the ilvl jumps in advance, surely they could plan the side dungeon so that every ilvl jump it also gets a jump to keep it relevant and keep it in the expert roulette.

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They could achieve this just by adding a more strict item level sync to each dungeon so they stay relevant/difficult. And then actually make them difficult between the minimum and maximum item levels, paying special attention to the healing role. Right now the healing requirements are easier to fulfill than in some leveling dungeons.

Perhaps they could achieve variety by introducing level 70 roulette and Expert roulette at the same time and make them have the same dungeons except have the Expert roulette automatically sync to minimum item level. Then just keep adding all new dungeons to both roulette types. That way all dungeons stay relevant, Expert is for expert play and level 70 roulette remains for those who like to feel the power of their gear building up over time. People selecting specific duties would be matched with those who queue for level 70 roulette to keep the queue times in check.

As for the lack of things to do for the rest of the week, I hope the new Diadem will bring something interesting to the table. Maybe Stormblood should have some kind of world area full of "boss map" targets that are hard to kill (Odin style?) and have a low drop chance of random stat gear and higher drop chance of harder "boss maps".

cause designing something new and exciting that hasn't been done before is so easy in an MMO these days...

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

OK then. Predict 'exactly' what we will get over the next 2 years. Since you are being exact, I'd like dungeon names, boss names and which mechanics they will use as well as the same information about the raids and if it's not too much trouble, perhaps you could also tell us what's coming in the Gold Saucer too?

Oh, wait, you can't do that, because they only way of being exact is to say we'll get one or more dungeons, 8-man raid every other patch and 24-man alliance raids on the odd patches. That's not very exact.

Complaining about the format of updates in this way is rather like complaining that every day you have breakfast, lunch and dinner, and you're sick of that format and can predict exactly what you'll get for the next 2 years.

You can't predict exactly what we'll get, you can predict broadly, but then you can predict that broadly with regard to just about any online game update.

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That is a terrible analogy. I do not have the exact same thing for breakfast, lunch and dinner everyday for nearly four months. People aren't complaining about dungeons themselves but the fact nothing about them has changed. While environments are different and you get the occasional few shifts in mechanics, it all bogs down to the standard "pull trash through a linear path and aoe them all down." Even small adjustments like we've seen in PotD would be a welcomed improvement. I want targets where melee have to kill them ASAP, mobs that break the aggro table, thus requiring the tank to reestablish threat and perhaps even multiple paths. Say the dungeons were larger in size but whenever you queued certain areas were cut off at random or if you complete certain objectives (speed, kills and etc) different things happen. They don't need to be major changes, just small things to breath some life into it. I will say Baelsar's Wall and Solm Ai Hard played with things a bit; you generally won't be in Cleric Stance so much, for example. So hopefully that is a start.

And speaking of mechanics. Some are reused with far too much frequency. Look Away is a prime example. It seems nearly every patch, we have that mechanic pop up somewhere. Zurvan is equally guilty, using a mechanic we have already been dealing with since 3.4 dropped. When that starts to happen, fights feel tired even when they're brand new.

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Originally Posted by Xyno

The best patch in the game was... 2.1. Why? 4 primals (3 ex), housing, new type of content- alliance raid (Crystal tower). Since 2.2 the model of content became boring and fully predictable
--- every main patch we gain a new hardcore raid content
--- every main patch we gain new tomestones
"old" tomestones we use to buy some useless things or items for relic
--- every patch we gain 2 new dungeons to farm tomestones via roulette ex
--- every middle patch we gain new alliance raid
and so on and so on and so on

The content became fully predictable and it is not interesting and boring
The content can be not CYCLED! It can be new almost every patch!

Do you know what will be in 4.0? Let me turn ON the Nostradamus mode... aaaammmmmmmm... I see...I see the hunt, many players hunt. I see... underwater tribes and players do daily quests to raise the reputation and to get some useless thing and a tribe mount. I see new alliance raid... I see new hardcore raid... I see the same mechanics in the raids (teathers, stack to share or run away, prays and so on)

Will the model of content change in 4.0 or it will be the same? Boring, predictable, without something new?

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I've only just entered HW, but have been around since patch 3.1. From what I have noticed, anytime something new is tried i.g. Steps of Faith; people hate it due to incompetency from other players. With that kind of feedback, and said content getting nerfed because it is too hard, why would devs deviate from the norm when releasing patches?

You're probably just going to have to wait for the next expansion for any kind of significant change.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I've only just entered HW, but have been around since patch 3.1. From what I have noticed, anytime something new is tried i.g. Steps of Faith; people hate it due to incompetency from other players. With that kind of feedback, and said content getting nerfed because it is too hard, why would devs deviate from the norm when releasing patches?

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One of the strongest thing- is principal position. Of course, if SE wants profit, the game will become SIMS rather soon. Just create new mounts, houses, glamours and simple dungeons without a good challenge. Will this game be popular? Among the lots of casual players without any skill- yes, of course.

But what kind of place in a history such a game will take a place? What we will remember about it?
- Do you remember ff 14?
- Oh, it is a casual mmorpg with a cycled content, to see one patch- means to see all the game's content?

The lust of profit can kill the quality of the game

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I've only just entered HW, but have been around since patch 3.1. From what I have noticed, anytime something new is tried i.g. Steps of Faith; people hate it due to incompetency from other players. With that kind of feedback, and said content getting nerfed because it is too hard, why would devs deviate from the norm when releasing patches?

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While not the most polished encounter to have been made, Steps of Faith itself is probably less to blame for its poor reception than the lack of almost any challenge, altered priorities, or necessary adaptation leading up to endgame. It's precisely because they set the bar low throughout that they'd flattened their future design prospects.

Sadly, the only way out of that is to introduce said challenge, bit by bit, chancing the occasional shock value in order to try to mitigate entitlement and stimulate enjoyment of skillful play. They need to try to merge demographics to some extent, but this needs to always be in a upward direction. Make more casual players take on some of the habits of more skilled players, whether by need (content) or outside training (a novice hall that actually teaches something worth a damn). The top-lying metas already reach downward, whether in practice or merely in reputation—often to universal irritation. Why then should mechanical planning and awareness, often the only core (albeit slight) selling point of XIV combat from fight to fight for who doesn't get the expected kick out of memorized openers, still be limited to the mid and upper players, especially when there's no controversy or conflict involved therein (aside from perhaps the "player preference" of "I'd rather not pay attention to anything")?
Proximal challenge over complacency, ambition over entitlement.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

cause designing something new and exciting that hasn't been done before is so easy in an MMO these days...

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There's no need for content to be original; it simply needs to be varied. There's a ton of content just from FFXI that they could mimic for FFXIV, and that would be better than what we have now.

I'm also really curious as to why you (and others) feel the need to make such useless comments. Are you somehow threatened by people who want more variety in addition to what we have now? Would keeping the current content relevant a little longer, so that the Expert Roulette feels more varied, somehow ruin your gameplay experience? Why are you throwing out excuses for what many people feel is incompetence on the part of SE?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I've only just entered HW, but have been around since patch 3.1. From what I have noticed, anytime something new is tried i.g. Steps of Faith; people hate it due to incompetency from other players. With that kind of feedback, and said content getting nerfed because it is too hard, why would devs deviate from the norm when releasing patches?

You're probably just going to have to wait for the next expansion for any kind of significant change.

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Wanted to reply to this real quickly, too.

From my perspective, Steps of Faith wasn't new. It had a new type of mechanic, but it was still a basic storyline instance with a typical 2-2-4 party setup. When I talk about more content variety, and I suspect this holds for Xyno and others as well, I actually want something that feels distinctly different. Some examples would be Hunts (badly-implemented), Diadem (horribly implemented), and Palace of the Dead (a fantastic addition).

I want more of that. Give me a system in FFXIV that mimics, say, Assault from FFXI. Or Besieged. Or Abyssea. Or {Sky}, or Salvage, or Campaign, or on and on. There's tons of ideas that SE has implemented successfully in their previous MMO, if they're not feeling particularly creative for a patch cycle. That's what I'm meaning when I refer to new content, as are most others, I suspect.

Also, the reason people complained about Steps of Faith had far less to do with developers 'deviating from the norm', and a lot more to do with the fact that they over-tuned the hell out of it. It was Pharos on steroids, and a required part of MSQ progression no less. Had it released at its current difficulty level, the reception would have been a lot more positive (albeit a solo duty serving as a 'tutorial' of sorts would have been a good idea).

Yeah I'm pretty bored at the moment. The whole Heavensward cycle was ARR all over again. I only logged in after a patch. Played the story did every dungeon and Trial and Raid once and left until the next patch because the content wasnt long lasting.

I'm coming from Final Fantasy XI and I'm used to content that lasts very long. I'm used to Items that I can use for many years.
And in FFXIV I have to start all over again every Second Patch.

Still wish Yoshida took notes from Tanaka or they at least kept Tanaka on as an advisor. Say what you want but he at least had MMO experience to fall back on and his input would do more good then harm. Tanaka tried new things or at least attempted to. Yoshida plays it way too safe with all new content being essentially the same but with that smoke and mirror aesthetic flair.

Damn shame.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Still wish Yoshida took notes from Tanaka or they at least kept Tanaka on as an advisor. Say what you want but he at least had MMO experience to fall back on and his input would do more good then harm. Tanaka tried new things or at least attempted to. Yoshida plays it way too safe with all new content being essentially the same but with that smoke and mirror aesthetic flair.

Damn shame.

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Tanaka's ideas killed an MMO :P Just sayin.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Tanaka's ideas killed an MMO :P Just sayin.

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At least he tried though. :)

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

At least he tried though. :)

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i mean FFXV is doing the same thing, putting a game out without being complete. Im seeing a huge pattern here, and
I dont think that the original was entirely Tanaka's fault, as much as the rushed dead line was

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Tanaka's ideas killed an MMO :P Just sayin.

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Actually, the director at the time was Nobuaki Komoto, the JP blame him fully and apparently there is a lot of negative feelings towards him from the JP. He is still on this dev team, and he is in charge of the relic quests etc. He made a lot of the grind stuff in FFXI and now XIV. If you get a free moment you should google him.^^

As for me I agree with MagiusNecros...this game needs content with longevity ; ;