Mentor minimum requirement is too low / needs adjustment

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Originally Posted by AmalonStar

Reading only some of the posts so I may repeat some ideas.

Adding more restrictions to become a mentor is a good idea, it's too easy to become one.

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The problem is not that it is too easy to become a mentor.
Running dungeons lots of times does not make you better suited for being a mentor than running them just a few times while actually knowing all the mechanics.
Being a good mentor requires good knowledge of the game and the right attitude. It does not require having done stuff X number of times.

In short the current requirements are neither too low or too high or even fine. They are just irrelevant.

I think it should be separated by tank / DPS / healer -- not one of each.

Let me play the classes I enjoy and the classes I'm good at without taking on the ones I'm not.

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

No amount of play will make a bad player good, if they don't care.

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Yes, but maybe if the requirements were much stricter we'd be less likely to see people getting the Mentor status just to have it.

Oh who am I kidding? No matter how many gates they put it behind, there will always be bad players who farm it just to have the shiny crown next to their name without caring about what it means. Plus, it's not like they could take away the mentor status from the people that already earned it, even if they did raise the requirements.

I disagree, 1000 instances is alot, I play this game a ton and I have over 700 commendations and I have still yet to complete 1000 instances. I think the requirements should be on the crowns not the mentors, does anyone ever complain about crafting mentors no because not to many people care about crafting enough to get upset about it. I think that its messed up tho that you can change your crown to any kind that you desire, I think that the pve mentor should be the highest type of mentor in the game I would say maybe raise the requirement on this the most.

But I dont believe to simply be a mentor alone when most people in the nn are only gona be askin questions about the base game of arr should require anymore than it does now. But to me the pve mentor should be the steepest reward, because to me that means you are sayin that you have masters pve in the game so maybe raid, all extreme primal clears etc should be the requirement for this one. But just to simply wear the crown itself like the base crown I dont believe the requirements should increase. The differences in crowns should just matter more than being able to simply wear them all once you meet one requirement.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

The problem is not that it is too easy to become a mentor.
Running dungeons lots of times does not make you better suited for being a mentor than running them just a few times while actually knowing all the mechanics.
Being a good mentor requires good knowledge of the game and the right attitude. It does not require having done stuff X number of times.

In short the current requirements are neither too low or too high or even fine. They are just irrelevant.

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You can run the 1k dungeons as unsynced to get the 1000 needed, what I was saying was to switch it to needing to run them normally, not as a lv 60 running ifrit norm a bunch of times.

I was also saying to add other elements like X number of fates and such. I say this because I have watched ppl that were sprouts in the nn become mentors right after loosing the sprout and still not knowing mug about the game.

Why should logged on time count in? I know tons of players that are way better players (and mentors) than me, and they only started playing the game half a year ago.
Why should they not be mentors despite the ability and willingness to be one, just because they didn't start playing back in 1.0 and have years of playtime logged? That seems like a really pointless requirement.

I'm also inclined to think that more mentors = better. Yeah sure, we get some bad eggs, but if you made the requirements crazy high, barely any mentors would be in the newbie chat at all.
As it is now, on the most populated EU server, we usually have 30-80 mentors online, and many are busy with their own stuff, so actively helping are..10-12 people?
Not the same 10-12, of course, as one mentor becomes busy another one starts having time to help, and so on.
Now imagine raising the bar to even become a mentor at all by a lot. We'd be left with maybe 10 mentors, of which 0-1 would actually have time to answer questions or run duties with the newbies. None or one person for over 200 newbies.
That seems like a horrible idea, sorry.

It's not like someone failing or being rude with a mentor crown means newbies will listen to him when they see him fail. The current requirements do so much good for very little bad (once in a while running into someone who brings shame to the title of mentor), I do not see any reason to change them.

And btw, the main job of mentors is to help players that are ACTUALLY NEW TO THE GAME. While I do think mentors should at least do okay in duties, what matters is how much they can help with the everyday problems newbies encounter, not how big their epeen on FFlogs for A12S is :rolleyes: If a player can't beat Zurvan EX or never entered Savage Alex, but can quickly answer where to get a chocobo, which classes are needed to upgrade to which job, what is included in the free trial, how to best level up in level range X, and knows very well how to do duties no one normally does that are required for story progression (like normal mode 4-man Garuda and stuff like that) I'd take them as a mentor any day over someone who's entire qualification is that he can beat A12S but is completely detached from the actual beginner's problems.
Phew. Rant over.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

You posted this garbage in another topic about mentors and I will repeat what I said then.

You don't get good teachers by asking them to do it for free. You don't build an entire education system off the tiny amount of people who will do something purely out of passion while sacrificing everything else.

You get good teachers by paying them a good salary, properly testing and screening your teachers, and putting in a proper and effective system of education.

The problem right now isn't the reward.

The problem right now is that SE only requires you to have an elementary school diploma to teach a college level class. The problem right now is that the mentor status, mentor roulette, and the novice channel are all complete failures as education systems. Removing the reward is not going to fix any of that. If you think the reward is the problem, you are blind.

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Then please, instead of attacking my opinion with your own, state what you would change to make only those who are truly educated stand above those who would just farm Ifrit NM unsycned 10000 times if need be just to get the title of mentor so they may start earning the mount? Because as long as you have a reward people want at the end they will still do all that is required to start earning it, just because they are able to perform the best doesn't mean they are fit to be teachers or would even want to help. You say its garbage but some agree with me and I personally have no problem helping people for free, I don't need a shiny, oversized, steroid pumped Pegasus to want to help people.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Why should logged on time count in? I know tons of players that are way better players (and mentors) than me, and they only started playing the game half a year ago.
Why should they not be mentors despite the ability and willingness to be one, just because they didn't start playing back in 1.0 and have years of playtime logged? That seems like a really pointless requirement.

I'm also inclined to think that more mentors = better. Yeah sure, we get some bad eggs, but if you made the requirements crazy high, barely any mentors would be in the newbie chat at all.
As it is now, on the most populated EU server, we usually have 30-80 mentors online, and many are busy with their own stuff, so actively helping are..10-12 people?
Not the same 10-12, of course, as one mentor becomes busy another one starts having time to help, and so on.
Now imagine raising the bar to even become a mentor at all by a lot. We'd be left with maybe 10 mentors, of which 0-1 would actually have time to answer questions or run duties with the newbies. None or one person for over 200 newbies.
That seems like a horrible idea, sorry.

It's not like someone failing or being rude with a mentor crown means newbies will listen to him when they see him fail. The current requirements do so much good for very little bad (once in a while running into someone who brings shame to the title of mentor), I do not see any reason to change them.

And btw, the main job of mentors is to help players that are ACTUALLY NEW TO THE GAME. While I do think mentors should at least do okay in duties, what matters is how much they can help with the everyday problems newbies encounter, not how big their epeen on FFlogs for A12S is :rolleyes: If a player can't beat Zurvan EX or never entered Savage Alex, but can quickly answer where to get a chocobo, which classes are needed to upgrade to which job, what is included in the free trial, how to best level up in level range X, and knows very well how to do duties no one normally does that are required for story progression (like normal mode 4-man Garuda and stuff like that) I'd take them as a mentor any day over someone who's entire qualification is that he can beat A12S but is completely detached from the actual beginner's problems.
Phew. Rant over.

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Correct me if I'm wrong (don't have all the jerbles to 60 so I'm not a mentor) but from what I've read from others that the mentor queue puts you in a lot of EX Primal parties. If the roulette can put you in content where you need to be good, I do think that is important and it's not "epeen" to suggest that they should have to be a mentor in a high end content. If they're not good enough to be a guiding light in the darkest content they're expected to be able to complete then they're not actually a mentor.

Although like I said before I do see value in having a generic "I like to help people" status, for where do go in MSQ and stuff like that. But if you're seen as a teacher but you can barely do your rotations then I do think that is not a good thing, not a quality of being a mentor. Although I do suggest unbinding all the mentor icons to specific roles. So you could be a mentor of crafting but have not unlocked tank, or PvP.

Agreed about the the game time and stuff though, just because you're old doesn't make you helpful. Making 5,000 ran instances isn't really going to have any effect, or will only have a negative effect.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Correct me if I'm wrong (don't have all the jerbles to 60 so I'm not a mentor) but from what I've read from others that the mentor queue puts you

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Like I said earlier that everyone overlooked , all crowns do not mean the same thing, for instance if someone is a crafting mentor but uses mentor roulette should they be expected to just kick butt in every form of content I wouldnt think so. To me the only mentor that should be amazing at pve is the pve mentor, if you put the sword by ur name then you better know how to play all aspects of the game very well. This is the only type of mentor that deserves heavy gating, but to have a basic crown you can simply be average at the game but knowledgeable of all the things new players need to know. But the problem is to many players that are average are choosing to wear the pve mentor crown.

Mentor Roulette only includes ARR ex primals, not Heavensward ones.
It also requires you to complete all content in the roulette before you can run it.
You can be a Mentor without having the roulette unlocked.

A simple yet perhaps debatable fix? Require mentors to have cleared Savage. Although you will inevitably come across people who bought clears or fall into the dreaded "elitist" category. The majority will be highly skilled players. Necessitating playtime, role restrictions or roulettes accomplishes nothing since everyone can achieve that without any real effort (i.e spamming Ifirt NM). You weed out a massive portion of bad players with a crowd by demanding they clear the hardest content as most won't be able to. Are there people who aren't raiders yet still good players? Absolutely. But there really isn't a way to separate them from people who have no idea what they're doing. I suppose you could argue for only the Extreme Primals, but I'd still prefer it being Savage.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

A simple yet perhaps debatable fix? Require mentors to have cleared Savage. .

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Disagree with this. just because someone hasn't done Savage doesn't mean they are bad players. For example i barely get time to play so i spend the majority of my time doing anima weapon, levelling up classes etc. I don't have time to find a static to do raids with. I think the best way to do it is to remove the mounts from the mentor and put them somewhere else. As mounts i think are the best reward from the system

You don't need to be a highly skilled player to be a Mentor.
You need to have a basic understanding of every role in order to be able to answer newbie questions. As was said by someone earlier Mentors need to be able to answer questions like how do I unlock mounts not how to do a perfect level 60 rotation.

I agree there needs to be a way to weed out players that have no idea what they're doing but needing ex/savage clears is ridiculously high considering what a Mentor actually needs to do.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

A simple yet perhaps debatable fix? Require mentors to have cleared Savage. Although you will inevitably come across people who bought clears or fall into the dreaded "elitist" .

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So why would you want only people who are gona be busy with their statics , tryin to be the only mentors. What I see as a mentor is really some of the most basic things being asked like running the first few dungeons in the game help basic level gear, very few people even do savage so why would you require this to be a mentor makes no sense. And once again everything people are saying would relate to pve mentor we have 4 different mentors, pvp, pve, crafting, and just your basic mentor. What alot of nn people need is someone with time and someone thats willing to help them do some of the most basic things in the game.

Im one of the very few mentors that will even run a sync primal with a new player. Most will just say will get you an unsync run going thus teaching the player nothing, so yea someone may clear this stuff with their friends but are they gona be willing to fail multiple times with a new player I highly doubt it thus it shouldn't be a requirement and would make no sense to have savage to be a requirement for all mentors. Are people forgetting that most people lose the sprout right after entering hw which means you can just be entering hw yourself and still know everything you need to know to help with Arr content.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Like I said earlier that everyone overlooked , all crowns do not mean the same thing, for instance if someone is a crafting mentor but uses mentor roulette should they be expected to just kick butt in every form of content I wouldnt think so. To me the only mentor that should be amazing at pve is the pve mentor, if you put the sword by ur name then you better know how to play all aspects of the game very well. This is the only type of mentor that deserves heavy gating, but to have a basic crown you can simply be average at the game but knowledgeable of all the things new players need to know. But the problem is to many players that are average are choosing to wear the pve mentor crown.

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I don't think "everyone overlooked" as I specifically mentioned in that post you quoted that you shouldn't be a mentor of something you barely know something about, and in a previous post in this thread I mentioned it as well :P

I agree, you should not get all the mentor crowns by default. There should be a generic I can help you, and then specific ones like "I'm good at tanking, and can help you" "I'm a great crafter, and can help" "I'm great everything" lol. The "and can help you bit" is any sort of NM content, you don't have to be amazeballs just have played the game a bit. Anything that suggests you're knowledgeable in a specific role like "I'm a tank mentor who can queue in the mentor roulette and get an EX primal" should mean you're actually good at being a tank though.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

Mentor Roulette only includes ARR ex primals, not Heavensward ones.
It also requires you to complete all content in the roulette before you can run it.
You can be a Mentor without having the roulette unlocked.

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So you do sort of need to know how to play then, just not the bleeding edge new content. Titan EX isn't going to be cleared by afking on the 1 macro unless you're being carried lol.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

You don't need to be a highly skilled player to be a Mentor.
You need to have a basic understanding of every role in order to be able to answer newbie questions. As was said by someone earlier Mentors need to be able to answer questions like how do I unlock mounts not how to do a perfect level 60 rotation.

I agree there needs to be a way to weed out players that have no idea what they're doing but needing ex/savage clears is ridiculously high considering what a Mentor actually needs to do.

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They do need to do EX content though. I think people are mixing up a mentor who spends time in the novice channel with someone who uses the queue to teach battle. I really think we should have a mentor who just wants to help people out, do some basic progress, give them good directions. But if there is content that requires you to know your job then you should know your job, or not be mentor. And being queued for EX in the roulette means.. knowing your job. Perhaps not to perfection but a lot better than "uh.. I just cast fire I, seem to do okay~!" lol.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Correct me if I'm wrong (don't have all the jerbles to 60 so I'm not a mentor) but from what I've read from others that the mentor queue puts you in a lot of EX Primal parties. If they're not good enough to be a guiding light in the darkest content they're expected to be able to complete then they're not actually a mentor.

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The hardest content currently in the roulette is Dun Scaith. EX Primals in the roulette are old, overgeared lvl 50 ones, and while that can get tricky, it's far from needing to be able to beat current endgame content.
And like Moomba33 said, you can be a mentor without even unlocking the roulette at all. If you want to unlock it, you need to beat all content up to Dun Scaith, but it's all just normal dungeons and ARR primals and 24-man raids, no savage raiding or current primals. So while that's not hard to beat, if you are actually too bad to do that, you won't be able to use the roulette anyways. Of course that leaves entering duties with newbies from the network, but I'll go out on a limb and say that anyone who is invested enough to do that is knowledgable enough about the game to play their role well enough to complete said duty (for example, I am absolutely not convinced about my endgame tanking capabilities, but I can tank well enough to help out newbies with whatever they could want or need).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Although like I said before I do see value in having a generic "I like to help people" status, for where do go in MSQ and stuff like that. But if you're seen as a teacher but you can barely do your rotations then I do think that is not a good thing, not a quality of being a mentor. Although I do suggest unbinding all the mentor icons to specific roles. So you could be a mentor of crafting but have not unlocked tank, or PvP.

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1. I think you are highly overestimating what mentors are supposed to do. Mentoring is supposed to be for NEW players. Newbies lose their sprout status once they finish basic Heavensward, so having a specific "endgame" mentor that teaches them about savage raiding and the like makes no sense, because newbies graduate long before they hit that point.
2. That's already how it works. Basically, you can only wear the mentor symbol of the type you actually have aquired, so a Crafting Mentor can't wear a PvP mentor symbol and stuff like that.
While I absolutely think PvE mentors should be knowledgeable about all PvE encounters that a newbie might need (including mechanics to look out for and of course capable gameplay in general), that does NOT include endgame content because of the reason mentioned previously.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

The hardest content currently in the roulette is Dun Scaith. EX Primals in the roulette are old, overgeared lvl 50 ones, and while that can get tricky, it's far from needing to be able to beat current endgame content.
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Actually how it is now which is totally dum you can wear any crown that you want from meeting one requirement. So for instance a crafting mentor can wear the pvp crown if they wanted, so they really should fix this in the long haul. Each status should mean something instead of them all being clustered together like they are now.

Pretty sure you can just pick whatever Mentor symbol you want regardless of how you became a Mentor.
At the very least I have a friend that became a Mentor through the crafting requirements and can do the roulette since she beat everything in it and she doesn't qualify as a battle Mentor since she doesn't have a 60 healer on that character.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

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To be fair, they would be in the Novice Network. You do not have to play with someone to get advice on how to play your job. Nonetheless, raiding is not a 24/7 occupation. In fact, most of the written or video guides available come from prominent raiders. Most have the time, if they so chose. But for the PvE aspect of the game, you'll generally get better working knowledge on average from players who are clearing harder content than those primarily running Expert Roulette. Once again, that isn't to say everyone who opts out of raiding are bad players. I do wish to emphasis that. There just needs to be some means of vetting people who are woefully unqualified to give advice. While you could take away the mount, I cannot help wondering if a large portion of people would simply not bother. I suppose that isn't necessarily bad per se, but plenty don't even care for the mount. They just want the little silly crown and another linkshell.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

The hardest content currently in the roulette is Dun Scaith. EX Primals in the roulette are old, overgeared lvl 50 ones, and while that can get tricky, it's far from needing to be able to beat current endgame content.
And like Moomba33 said, you can be a mentor without even unlocking the roulette at all. If you want to unlock it, you need to beat all content up to Dun Scaith, but it's all just normal dungeons and ARR primals and 24-man raids, no savage raiding or current primals. So while that's not hard to beat, if you are actually too bad to do that, you won't be able to use the roulette anyways. Of course that leaves entering duties with newbies from the network, but I'll go out on a limb and say that anyone who is invested enough to do that is knowledgable enough about the game to play their role well enough to complete said duty (for example, I am absolutely not convinced about my endgame tanking capabilities, but I can tank well enough to help out newbies with whatever they could want or need).

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So in that scenario I think you should be good at your role, if you're in the roulette :P. I don't care what you've completed if you just want to be a helpful person. Just be helpful, that's cool. But again I firmly believe if you're going to be in a teacher position of a specific role then you should be better than "okay". And I don't think the later assumption is a safe assumption (that because they invested enough they're knowledgeable enough) seeing as how many people complain the mentor has no idea what they're doing lol.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

1. I think you are highly overestimating what mentors are supposed to do. Mentoring is supposed to be for NEW players. Newbies lose their sprout status once they finish basic Heavensward, so having a specific "endgame" mentor that teaches them about savage raiding and the like makes no sense, because newbies graduate long before they hit that point.
2. That's already how it works. Basically, you can only wear the mentor symbol of the type you actually have aquired, so a Crafting Mentor can't wear a PvP mentor symbol and stuff like that.
While I absolutely think PvE mentors should be knowledgeable about all PvE encounters that a newbie might need (including mechanics to look out for and of course capable gameplay in general), that does NOT include endgame content because of the reason mentioned previously.

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1. You can be a mentor at any point, even if there are no sprouts around - I do not personally see the job as mentor ending as soon as no sprouts are looking at you. Perhaps I mistake it, but if something says mentor.. I expect them to be able to mentor just by virtue of the title lol.

2. I meant like a mentor who is on a job they don't know how to play, they don't know their own job but it's true they may know the dungeon. And from what others have said it sounds like you can be mentor of whatever you want once you unlock the system (is someone wrong on that, I dunno lol). Should just change the icon, imo, so its like Mentor symbol plus a star if they're on something they're good at. Otherwise it's without a star to suggest they know the content but don't expect anything amazing from their ability. If the roulette doesn't include end game content then I don't see it being required to know it, that's very fair I agree.

So in combination; Mentor if the status is up is a mentor regardless of who is around, and what they're a mentor of they should know that content. If it says they're a DoW mentor, they better know how to play DoW jobs - imo.

If it's intended to only be helpful to brand spanking new people then I think its not really a good use of the system, since a lot of not new people could use help too lol. Also I have minor issue with the use of the word, since I like things to be defined properly but eh. If the intended system is ONLY for 1-50, then my expectation is that whatever you signify you're good at from 1-50 you need to be good at. Further suggesting the mentor system needs to last longer because if a jump potion jumps you right to the end of the "novice" system you'll still need a mentor, and you'll need it for higher end content as well.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Actually how it is now which is totally dum you can wear any crown that you want from meeting one requirement. So for instance a crafting mentor can wear the pvp crown if they wanted, so they really should fix this in the long haul. Each status should mean something instead of them all being clustered together like they are now.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

Pretty sure you can just pick whatever Mentor symbol you want regardless of how you became a Mentor.
At the very least I have a friend that became a Mentor through the crafting requirements and can do the roulette since she beat everything in it and she doesn't qualify as a battle Mentor since she doesn't have a 60 healer on that character.

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This is wrong, I have actually tried that already ;)
While you can enter the mentor roulette regardless of which mentor version you achieved (but again, you need to have actually beaten all content in it, thereby establishing you are at least qualified enough for that kind of content), the type of crown you can wear is directly limited by which requirements you fullfilled.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I do not personally see the job as mentor ending as soon as no sprouts are looking at you. Perhaps I mistake it, but if something says mentor.. I expect them to be able to mentor just by virtue of the title lol.

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Regardless of what personal values you attach to the word, the game is very specific about the duties of a mentor, and that is literally ONLY tied to helping and mentoring sprouts, and not in any way tied to behaviour/ability once you take the symbol off, or play with other veterans. It says so in the description of the job, and again in the list you need to accept when you agree to become a mentor. If you ask the NPC, he explains it as well. Mentoring is specifically tied to Sprouts, not all players in general.

Personally, I totally agree and am very annoyed when I for example get a bad player in my Zurvan EX farm party who is wearing a mentor sign or something like that, because I also attach more value to the tag than the game itsself does, but that's just my personal thoughts on it and the standard I set for myself (which is why I specifically take off the crown when I go for content that I am new or inexperienced in) and not something that I think needs to be enforced.

As for symbols - as said at the beginning of this post, it's false information that everyone can wear any symbol. You can only wear the generic crown and the symbol for the requirements you actually completed, not any symbol regardless of what you can do or not :)
For example, while the crafting mentor crown shows up in my list of symbols, when I try to equip it, the game tells me I am unable to because I'm not a crafting mentor.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Further suggesting the mentor system needs to last longer because if a jump potion jumps you right to the end of the "novice" system you'll still need a mentor, and you'll need it for higher end content as well.

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I agree with that, and assume the system will be adjusted. When they extended the free trial, they also extended the length of the sprout status to completing basic HW, so I assume it's gonna move up to completing basic SB once we hit 5.0.
But it's still gonna exclude endgame content, so I am still convinced that is not a proper requirement for becoming a mentor, as it is not needed in guiding sprouts who will lose the sprout status before they get into endgame :x

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Originally Posted by Atoli

This is wrong, I have actually tried that already ;)
While you can enter the mentor roulette regardless of which mentor version you

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I saw a fellow crafting mentor before my very eyes change their crown to every crown that was aviable I will try when I get home, while I have three sixties I still have yet to do 1000 roulette's but Im pretty sure I can put on the pve mentor crown.

I just changed my crown from crafting mentor yesterday to just the normal mentor , when I was doing that tho none of the other options where blanked out. So I will try in a few hours to verify but like I said Ive seen a friend do it myself and I know that they dont even have a healer leveled up at all. The feature allows you to change them as u see fit from what I saw her doing but like I said Ill try it myself today.

Honestly, before talking about mentor requirements and whatnot, it might be important to clear up what the point of mentors is.

Some people seem to think they're supposed to give advanced in-depth advice on play optimization and high performance duties, other seem to think that it's sufficient to answer the questions of newbies, who usually don't even know what a rotation is and aren't particularly interested in it either, because they're still trying to find the bank to dump some items.

It's kinda pointless to discuss how to best achieve the goal of the mentor program when there's no consensus on what the goal even is. So, uhm...if the discussion is meant to be productive, a definition of sort would be required.

The mentor system provides more experienced players a means to offer advice and guidance to newer players.

- What is a mentor?
Mentors are veteran players who chose to offer their time and experience to help guide new adventurers. To facilitate their assistance, mentors will gain access to a special chat channel as well as a means to easily register for duties and trials with new players.

- Mentor Requirements
To qualify to become a mentor, players must first have earned certain achievements. There are two sets of prerequisites, one for Disciples of War and Magic, and one for Disciples of the Hand and Land. After earning the required achievements for either set, speak with one of the Smiths to become a mentor.

Achievement Requirements for Disciples of War and Magic
・Complete at least one level 60 job quest as a tank, healer, and DPS.
・Complete 1,000 dungeons, raids, or trials.
・Receive 300 player commendations.

Achievement Requirements for Disciples of the Hand and Land
・Reach level 60 with at least one Disciple of the Hand and Land.
・Synthesize 100 collectables.
・Gather or catch 300 collectables.

- Novice Network
Upon becoming a mentor, you will automatically gain access to the Novice Network, a chat channel where new adventurers can seek the advice of veteran players.
* The "New Adventurer" status is applied to all players who have less than 40 hours of play time.

- Duty Roulette: Mentor
Mentors will also gain access to Duty Roulette: Mentor, which assigns players to duties that are struggling to fill party member slots.
* With the exception of parties actively seeking members for an ongoing duty, Duty Roulette: Mentor will not match together a full party of mentors.

Furthermore, players can earn an exclusive achievement reward after completing Duty Roulette: Mentor a set number of times.
* Achievement rewards will be added in a future update.
* After registering for Duty Roulette: Mentor, your online status will be automatically changed to "Mentor."

right off the lodestone http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/

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Originally Posted by Atoli

This is wrong, I have actually tried that already ;)
While you can enter the mentor roulette regardless of which mentor version you achieved (but again, you need to have actually beaten all content in it, thereby establishing you are at least qualified enough for that kind of content), the type of crown you can wear is directly limited by which requirements you fullfilled.

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I can't test it myself since Eva meets the requirements for both battle and crafting Mentors so I'll have to defer to others on this discussion.

So, I went online to check again because of what bswpayton said, and it seems you can actually now equip symbols regardless of what you achieved.
I specifically remember that was not how it was from the beginning, because when I first become a mentor I was confused that all symbols showed up for me so I tried equipping the crafting mentor symbol and it wouldn't let me.
Now I can just equip any symbol though, so sorry for discrediting you guys x)

That absolutely needs to change back. It's completely unacceptable that we can do that and act like we have any idea about something we actually know nothing about.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Honestly, before talking about mentor requirements and whatnot, it might be important to clear up what the point of mentors is.

Some people seem to think they're supposed to give advanced in-depth advice on play optimization and high performance duties, other seem to think that it's sufficient to answer the questions of newbies, who usually don't even know what a rotation is and aren't particularly interested in it either, because they're still trying to find the bank to dump some items.

It's kinda pointless to discuss how to best achieve the goal of the mentor program when there's no consensus on what the goal even is. So, uhm...if the discussion is meant to be productive, a definition of sort would be required.

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Agreed, also seems like there is some misinformation. Like you can be a mentor in whatever you want whenever you want? Edit: seems like yes you can be lol.

Imo, mentor of a job group means if you get asked a question unless it's very obscure you can answer it. You're not going to tell a BLM to do the "wrong" rotation because you just don't actually know how to play BLM yourself. I see value in having many types of mentors though, like ones who love to help newbies find the best leveling content and don't actually queue in roulette.

For mentors who queue in roulette, that includes EX content, I think it's important to have a higher standard and that standard isn't quantity but specifically quality. Even if as people point out you overgear it, I don't think that is enough of an argument that it's okay to let someone be a teacher. They should still be exampling proper play, good rotation, position, responsive combat, you watch the mentor and learn - not watch the mentor fumble to keep up their monk stacks.

So to me I'm coming at it at two separate angles. The basic mentor helper I don't think needs any change to becoming one, perhaps make it even easier to be a person who flags themselves as a helper. But I've seen and agree to the post that mentors who are of a specific field and / are of combat, then they should be tested. I also want the tests for another reason though, that'd be the other angle. I see enhancing the quality of combat mentors as a way to also add better tutorials which will better help new players or players seeking to improve themselves with little stress (I think training people into EX will give us more players to play with, and also increase their quality if they're taught what to expect - perhaps require them to play better if the test is made as a gate for certain DF content). So I guess that adds confusion to my posts, because I want to hit two birds with one stone while riding the main thought in the thread (make mentors great again.. lol).

I also think this is a justified question/suggestion for the topic because the topic was obviously created due to displeasure in the capability of mentors (so its not like people are suggesting changes because hey lets fiddle with stuff, they want to come to some "change" in mentor ability). Now just have to find out what will produce the best results, and why. The best results being for those who find mentors helpful, not for the mentors themselves.

I want to see as many mentors as possible, that are good at whatever symbol they yield~ (I think to simplify the icons, a star next to the mentor symbol means you know the job you're currently on - well, no star just means you're experienced enough to be a helpful person, we don't need icon clutter for a system that should help new people out haha).

Add slight more below:

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Regardless of what personal values you attach to the word, the game is very specific about the duties of a mentor, and that is literally ONLY tied to helping and mentoring sprouts, and not in any way tied to behaviour/ability once you take the symbol off, or play with other veterans. It says so in the description of the job, and again in the list you need to accept when you agree to become a mentor. If you ask the NPC, he explains it as well. Mentoring is specifically tied to Sprouts, not all players in general.

Personally, I totally agree and am very annoyed when I for example get a bad player in my Zurvan EX farm party who is wearing a mentor sign or something like that, because I also attach more value to the tag than the game itsself does, but that's just my personal thoughts on it and the standard I set for myself (which is why I specifically take off the crown when I go for content that I am new or inexperienced in) and not something that I think needs to be enforced.

As for symbols - as said at the beginning of this post, it's false information that everyone can wear any symbol. You can only wear the generic crown and the symbol for the requirements you actually completed, not any symbol regardless of what you can do or not :)
For example, while the crafting mentor crown shows up in my list of symbols, when I try to equip it, the game tells me I am unable to because I'm not a crafting mentor.


I agree with that, and assume the system will be adjusted. When they extended the free trial, they also extended the length of the sprout status to completing basic HW, so I assume it's gonna move up to completing basic SB once we hit 5.0.
But it's still gonna exclude endgame content, so I am still convinced that is not a proper requirement for becoming a mentor, as it is not needed in guiding sprouts who will lose the sprout status before they get into endgame :x

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Originally Posted by Atoli

So, I went online to check again because of what bswpayton said, and it seems you can actually now equip symbols regardless of what you achieved.
I specifically remember that was not how it was from the beginning, because when I first become a mentor I was confused that all symbols showed up for me so I tried equipping the crafting mentor symbol and it wouldn't let me.
Now I can just equip any symbol though, so sorry for discrediting you guys x)

That absolutely needs to change back. It's completely unacceptable that we can do that and act like we have any idea about something we actually know nothing about.

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So apparently I want to see the mentor system expanded haha. I find all your logic sound, but I think we start to differ because I personally envision the mentor system as a thing for all time and all content - where if you show up in an EX of whatever content as a mentor.. like omg hey you must be good! lol. So perhaps for end game content the tests I suggested (which as above and in previous post I think can hit two birds one stone) are where it happens. You don't have to have end game experience to be a mentor for new players, but your mentor status turns off until you earn your new "tier" of mentor status again when doing this other content (which again, quality not quantity - I'm not a fan of these time gated suggestions I see).

I disagree with people making mentor harder to obtain without having "good" results, as I want as many people who want to be helpful to easily be helpful. Like SE should let a 2 minute old leaf be a mentor if that person could actually be helpful to others (doubtful at 2 minutes but you get my feeling I think). Making someone play 100days before they can use systems that help others is a bit like "whyyyyyyyy to me" lol.

@Shougun:
Well, with the coming introduction of jump potions, a "Hall of the Intermediate" has been in talks, basically the same as the Hall of the Novice, but it teaches you proper high level rotations for your class and the like.
I think a "higher tier" of mentors could be tied to that, just how the current mentor/sprout system came together with the Hall of the Novice. I'm not entirely sure how good of an idea it would be to further fragment the mentors though.
Since the first rush after the system got introduced, mentor activity has dwindled quite a bit and further separating that..idk.

The thing is, I see the activity in the network and the help in content everyday. The level of the players there is absolutely fine. And I've never heard a single Sprout complain about it either.
The only thing people actually have complaints about is the Mentor roulette (well, and mentors doing badly in unrelated-to-newbies content, but we've established that at least the current version of the system is specifically targeted at newbies only).
And personally, I think the main problem with the mentor roulette is the reward. People don't bother with explanations, good play, or even just not-behaving-like-an-a*****e, because they need to quickly get their 1000 mentor roulette duties done for the mount.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Imo, mentor of a job group means if you get asked a question unless it's very obscure you can answer it. You're not going to tell a BLM to do the "wrong" rotation because you just don't actually know how to play BLM yourself.

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Hm..the thing is though, the system is by default not built to be that specific. I'd go ahead and argue that only the tiniest bit (if any at all) of the current PvE mentors...or ANY players, for that matter...actually play literally every single class that exists in the game on raid level. Like for example, my own active classes are BLM, WHM, AST, BRD and NIN. To a degree, DRK. While I am close to having all classes at 60, I could never actually give out advice to a DRG about their rotation, or a SCH about how to correctly balance their healing and dpsing, or a WAR how all those weird combos work. And that's fine, because the system is not meant to be that specific, because it's meant to be just advice based on roles, not specific jobs (like telling the new tank to pick up Provoke and explaining how it works, but not intricate explanations about PLD cooldown management at lvl 60, for example).

I was able to become a mentor without leveling any tank to 60 (check lodestone)

Mentor here, chiming in.

There should be separate requirements for each type of mentor. It's not fair that I can have all my crafting jobs at level one and switch to a crafter mentor.

Furthermore, the requirements for becoming a mentor aren't the problem in dungeons, as many have said. The problem is the people set in their ways who wear the crown as a popularity symbol. I say if we change the symbol to like a watering can as someone else suggested awhile ago, that would be a step in the right direction.

Commendations are okay, but I would say you need at least 100 as a DPS, 100 as tank, 100 as healer. I think that's achievable if you play each role long enough. I agree that tiers can be nice which can be reflected on the icon.

Also, and I think being required to run Mentor Roulettes to maintain your icon should be a thing.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

@Shougun:
Well, with the coming introduction of jump potions, a "Hall of the Intermediate" has been in talks, basically the same as the Hall of the Novice, but it teaches you proper high level rotations for your class and the like.
I think a "higher tier" of mentors could be tied to that, just how the current mentor/sprout system came together with the Hall of the Novice. I'm not entirely sure how good of an idea it would be to further fragment the mentors though.
Since the first rush after the system got introduced, mentor activity has dwindled quite a bit and further separating that..idk.

The thing is, I see the activity in the network and the help in content everyday. The level of the players there is absolutely fine. And I've never heard a single Sprout complain about it either.
The only thing people actually have complaints about is the Mentor roulette (well, and mentors doing badly in unrelated-to-newbies content, but we've established that at least the current version of the system is specifically targeted at newbies only).
And personally, I think the main problem with the mentor roulette is the reward. People don't bother with explanations, good play, or even just not-behaving-like-an-a*****e, because they need to quickly get their 1000 mentor roulette duties done for the mount.

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I get your concern but if I wasn't explicit enough, I'm fairly sure I can alleviate at least my intentions to you :). I want people to be mentor easily and readily, but only for that which they're good at lol. So for general helping, just flipping on the "I'm a nice person who made it to the end of the story you're doing" is great. I DONT want mentor to be specifically epeen or "I can do all the rotations perfectly" I only want people to be good at what they need to teach :P. I'm not looking to evacuate all mentors because they haven't ran 500 fates, 10,000 dungeons, 50 days of game time, or whatever - perhaps people who are suggesting those time gated changes can instead suggest a new mentor field: psychiatrist mentor lol "I've grinded too much, talk to me if you're feeling burnt out" haha (joke, mostly).

Personally would make it easier to become just a general mentor but be very careful with roulette and mentor specific titles (like I'll have a crafter to 60 soon, but if you asked me question about crafter beyond what is a good website I'd probably give you all the wrong info lol). Haven't made the collectible stuff on crafter but I can say that stuff is easy peezy on gatherer so having collected those doesn't make me that helpful. Not sure (since I don't know those roles very well) what sort of test you could make though. Perhaps there isnt one? I don't know :P.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Hm..the thing is though, the system is by default not built to be that specific. I'd go ahead and argue that only the tiniest bit (if any at all) of the current PvE mentors...or ANY players, for that matter...actually play literally every single class that exists in the game on raid level. Like for example, my own active classes are BLM, WHM, AST, BRD and NIN. To a degree, DRK. While I am close to having all classes at 60, I could never actually give out advice to a DRG about their rotation, or a SCH about how to correctly balance their healing and dpsing, or a WAR how all those weird combos work. And that's fine, because the system is not meant to be that specific, because it's meant to be just advice based on roles, not specific jobs (like telling the new tank to pick up Provoke and explaining how it works, but not intricate explanations about PLD cooldown management at lvl 60, for example).

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Exactly why I was aiming for a simple star no star + mentor status thing, don't want it too complex for others to understand or banish anyone who can't complete savage mode with one arm tied behind their back while wearing an eye patch.. but I do want to suggest changes to the mentor system that makes it more specific to your ability. You know how to play WHM? You join a queue as WHM and you have mentor icon with a star (or whatever simple consistent change people want) saying hey "I'm a helper, and I know WHM" vs like you're on Paladin but also have mentor status on - you'd have no star but you'd still be mentor. I'm not sure if that star should prevent you from using the mentor roulette (if you don't have one).. since we want as many mentors as possible.. but I keep referencing monk and black mage in my posts because I've seen some literal awful monk and mentor black mages where they messed up their stacks 24/7. I checked their lodestone and they were leveling those jobs, which is fine - but they'd be terrible teachers of the job they were playing lol.

And as you're mentioning the tutorials you might see why I think it could add double encouragement to SE to make some really good tutorials (a system SE can reference to make sure you know your stuff, a system that can help new players improve, and also help stabilize/evaluate current players). Also on a personal level I want to see content that gives me an environment to test my limits just by myself - no super boss WHM to save me, just some NPC maybe and a load of complex mechanics. I would love to see a bullet hell ultimate challenge (not required to be mentor ofc, just want to have some really challenging ME content where I can improve me without killing other people's stuff and also not relying on others as well). It does give me an ulterior motive to suggesting the mentor changes though :P.

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Originally Posted by Kuzonoha

Also, and I think being required to run Mentor Roulettes to maintain your icon should be a thing.

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Might kill some of the general helpers or crafting mentors though?

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

I was able to become a mentor without leveling any tank to 60 (check lodestone)

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Because you met the crafting/gathering requirements. There's two ways to become a mentor. Tank/healer/dps to 60, 300 commendations and 100 dungeon instances OR one crafter and one gatherer to 60 and 300 collectables gathered and 100 collectables crafted.

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Originally Posted by Kuzonoha

Mentor here, chiming in.
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Id have to disagree on this while I have gotten commendations on a dps but I just simply dont dps unless Im running with friends because to me the que times just simply arent worth dpsing when a tank is just as fun with a much faster que time. And everyone is talking about this mount but the mentors on my channel actually dont even really care for the mount simply because they dont have the patients to deal with all the new players that they try and guide in these roulette. The mentor mount is the only mount that actually rewards you for your time spent unlike other mounts that you can just wait til content is old and run it into the ground unsync.

The mentor mount should stay I think that the achievement should be locked based on the ultimate effort of doing all of these roullettes, and its rare I dont even think Ive ever seen anyone on my server with one. But the crowns are cool, but I mean id go for a water symbol but I do enjoy the crowns tho. The issue is that the system is not more specific like you said. I think mentor should be like crafting as is, 60 , 60 and the collectibles, not sure the pvp requirements but Im sure that can be left alone, the basic crown should stay as it is now 300 commendations are one of the other two pvp or crafting but maybe the person doesn't want to wear that extra marker. But for pve I think the 1000 instances is still good but I would say at least clear some of the harder content in the game maybe not savage raid but to at least be able to clear all the extreme primals in the game or something extra to me sense this game is pve focus to wear that crown you should be the best in the game at pve this one should stick out more than the others.

@mount:
Oh I totally agree that the real mentors (yes I'm gonna say it like that!) are too busy actually being helpful and also actually concerned about what happens in their mentor roulette to do anything that would bring shame to the mentor title.
I think anyone who is active in their server's mentor community can safely say that the real mentors are pretty much all good players, friendly, helpful, and know their stuff.
Those are not the people we get constant complaints about though. The ones everyone is mad about are those that do NOT behave like a mentor should, those who put in literally no effort at all in content to just get pulled through, those who bail on the party in mentor roulette because it's not something that can be beaten in 2 minutes, those who refuse to talk in party chat when newbies ask them how something works, etc. Basically, right now the mentor roulette is just a place for not-real mentors (as in, people who have the requirements but are not actually interested in mentoring) to farm to get the mount. Pretty much the same as how tons of people farmed the crown just for the looks of it, without ever actually intending to do any mentoring.

We are already self-regulating, being self-motivated doesn't seem so bad.
The inclusion of a crown and mount just drew in the completely wrong crowd, and that's why we even have complaints about mentors at all.
While I doubt they'd ever remove a reward that is already in the game, I hope they never add anything like that ever again.
You can't implement a system that relies entirely on the players voluntarily doing things for the sake of others and regulate their behaviour themselves, and then add all that ego stuff to it.
The ones who do not care about others will get lured in, and the ones who were always about helping others will not apprechiate being lumped together with those who aren't.

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

Because you met the crafting/gathering requirements. There's two ways to become a mentor. Tank/healer/dps to 60, 300 commendations and 100 dungeon instances OR one crafter and one gatherer to 60 and 300 collectables gathered and 100 collectables crafted.

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But it means, that I know nothing about how to play tank. I can suggest nothing to new tank except "you should do something, so I stop taking aggro from you".

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Well, it's 1 of each role at 60, plus 1000 instances complete, plus 300 commendations.

In my opinion, the role condition can stay. but the instances needs to be massively increased, maybe to the 5,000 mark when you get the Lifer II achievement. And commendations should be increased relatively high, either 1,000 or 500. 300 is a bit low.

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Higher reqs does not fix the attitude of some people, as higher ilevel does tell nothing about how a player is good at a given role.

As they are, reqs are enough to get a competent player imho.

While the Mentor program is great I, a lot of people , even though they are mentor status, are terrible at their job and either fate grind, or same dungeon grind. I think they should have a strict system were you need, lets say 6k recommendations, min 2 of every class at 60, and achievement Star rating of minimum 5k. Having perhaps a few relics, which require quite a bit grinding, insures you know your job. Just a thought.

Frankly, the Mentor system needs more of an overhaul to help improve its quality. Currently, it assesses only a player's 'experience' (in a very crude fashion), with barely any regard paid to the quality of the player and their general demeanor. That's a problem, because for a Mentor, experience alone isn't sufficient.

I'd propose a larger revamp, one which absorbs the following two ideas:

(1) Mentors should come in tiers. Bronze, Silver, and Gold. There are plenty of players who would make fantastic mentors who don't grind some of the harder content (or, in the OP's case, Healer to 60). There should be Mentor tiers that account for that (with perhaps the Mentor icon being automatically turned off in instances to which it doesn't apply; for example, a Bronze-level mentor might not have their icon showing if they're in an Alexander Savage run).

(2) Mentors should be reviewed. Players in a party with a Mentor (or possibly only 'new players' having the designated status) should be able to quickly flag a Mentor with a negative or positive review at the end of a Duty Finder event. Too many negative reviews should revoke the status (temporarily), with a permanent revocation being allowed for repeated negative reviews. Mentor status cannot be something that, once obtained, no longer factors in to the mindset of the player.

In return for these changes, feel free to reward Mentors with other perks beyond a proprietary Roulette as needed. But they need to be evaluated, and they need to allow for players with significant (but not exhaustive) expertise to get a foot in the door somehow.

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Originally Posted by Kuzonoha

Also, and I think being required to run Mentor Roulettes to maintain your icon should be a thing.

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I guess I'd have to give up mentoring then (assuming you meant that one can't be a mentor without an icon). I'm not in it for the mount but to tell newbies in a server-wide channel when they get their chocobo, what cross class skills and retainers are and how they can change their hair color.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

But it means, that I know nothing about how to play tank.

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Ah sorry I think I misunderstood you. I thought you were asking "how am I a mentor when I don't meet requirements", hence my answer on why, but you were actually stating that you don't meet battle requirements, but it still lets you have the icon etc.