Seriously, when are you guys gonna nerf ASTs again? Its highly needed.

I guess why some players won't queue with someone judging there is so much retards playing the game. Offcourse everyone don't have the same exp, and it's something pvper have to deal with.
It's weird, i always find some place where players try to coordinate even in pugs group.
Also i play frontline since day one in secure, i have played a lot in adder, and switch mael and immortal for the poney, i have 33/100 victory ratio, to me it's the proof it's balanced.
Win 1 game out of 3 is fair to me. Get some patience and you will get your mount like everyone.
And Ast don't need to be nerfed, nerfing the ast and nobody play the ast in pvp again...

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Personal problems that people have with OP put aside, I think the devs went overboard with the last AST buffs. If anything, they need a nerf in PVE (especially when it comes to MP management).

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Ast certainly needs a nerf in PvE, but a lot of the latest AST buffs aren't applied in PvP. Their shields are still the same,weak, and balance/bole base is still 10%.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

Also if your dying in frontlines as an AST you are kinda bad. They have the most advantage staying in back of their group to not get targeted.

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If you aren't killing an AST in Frontlines, thats kinda sad.

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

Ast certainly needs a nerf in PvE, but a lot of the latest AST buffs aren't applied in PvP. Their shields are still the same,weak, and balance/bole base is still 10%.

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More to the point, WHM is also just as effective with their spammable Holy peel, same Blizzard II that AST gets, same single-target Heavy etc except they also get Fluid Aura, Repose, super-good Divine Prism, don't need a nearby party member to use their healing potency buff, etc. Really a SCH is the only healer that might have trouble in a chase situation due to lack of hard CC, but sacking Eos for Dissipate for 3 extra Lustrates ain't bad either. (Still maintain SCH AOE punt needs a CC component for decent self-peeling.)

Heck, the devs could disable card use in PVP if it's really that big of a deal...I guarantee bads will still not be able to kill a good AST and will complain anyway. I still maintain that good WHMs in Frontlines are even more of a pain to chase.

I'm kinda new to PVP, but honestly I think WHM is much more problematic to deal with and much more of a PVP powerhouse. It's extremely hard to chase a WHM alone due to Fluid Aura and Repose, we have the most powerful regens in the game that helps a lot when fleeing, not only that but also Sacred Prism wich is awesome (40% physical mitigation is a lot) and Benediction used after a well timed Attunement is like a second HP bar for enemies to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

You missed my whole point of ast and just typed out the typical garbage most others say. Their ability to constantly run away while insta shield healing them AND their teammates.

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You're the one missing the point here. Yes, noct AST has an insta-shield. Why? Because it's weak. The shield is only 65% of the HP restored, and the spell is only 250 potency. That means the shield is around 160 potency, barely above half an Adlo, and without the doubled value upon a crit. Being instant is the only thing that makes Aspected Benefic viable when compared to Adlo shielding. The thing is that spamming instant shields is not a viable method of healing even against light focus - the spell's combined potency (250+162,5) is barely above that of a Cure I/Benefic I/Physick. An AST needs more than that to survive being focused. If "spamming instant shields" is enough, as you put it, that's on you, not on AST being OP.

A better argument is getting SCH up to par with WHM and AST.

The problem with AST in pvp is being able to heal too much while moving and sprinting.
maybe spirit healing needs a nerf? no idea

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Originally Posted by Cleanse

A better argument is getting SCH up to par with WHM and AST.

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Agreed, SCH is extremely lacking in PvP and I want to know why.

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Originally Posted by xxczx

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Still see nothing wrong other then me getting frustrated. It happens after 30 feasts and 100 front lines since 3.5 (not counting all the losses). Altho it's sad to see you guys from that community come onto a thread to suggest I was a bad player, looking for carries, lying, and slandering certain players specficially (a general statement doesn't count as it targets no one in particular).

Keep up the shining example cause you guys are doing more harm to your image then I am. Like a cult that shames people for leaving.

Edit: gah cant phone edit. What do those post have to do with the forum topic? As the leader of that discord its a shame to see you also jumping on the bandwangon to try to single me out but failing. What is it you are trying to point out about me exactly? That I ask if any groups are roaming? That I check to make sure others might want to party up? That I supposedly want a carry cause I say I need 5 more wins left (so far) to suggest I plan on doing much more after that milestone im about to hit? I did 80% of my wins without a party so I see no evidence I was asking for a handout. That I have colorful language? I join a pvp discord to look for other players interested in frontlines as well and im being shamed for asking in a pvp discord?

What is the logic of that? Do you join a raid discord only to find out no one in there raids what you wanna raid so you choose to stay or find some place else that better suits your needs? Honestly making yourself look like a fool.

As for you and your posse it only shows just how thin skinned you are when I said nothing to you guys even remotely aggressive and I get your party to come into my forum and try to shame me or discredit my opinions on class balance? All it shows is how petty your community is and treats others if they dont do what you wanna do or choose to find other places. I gave my final message before leaving as a form of thought as people wont learn nothing if nothing is said.

It is people like yourselves that got feast chat removed and its a dam shame.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Agreed, SCH is extremely lacking in PvP and I want to know why.

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Lack off cc, aura blast was good in lvl 50 fl, where you could bait ppl on edges and push them off the cliff(good player didn't fall for it tho), blizz 2 accesible to all healer its a good tool but its our only way to cc, blind(ruin2) is underused IT'S GOOD but inconsistent, we mp starve easily compared to the two other healer, and harder to play since we have to manage fairy too. Even tho difficulty should never be a factor in tier ranking but I meh. Correct me if im wrong

sleep/stunn them and they're dead faster than a SCH or WHM.

Why is this still a thread? AST isn't OP... Healers don't need nerfs until they adjust melee and mch. /Endthread

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Agreed, SCH is extremely lacking in PvP and I want to know why.

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I think the rule of thumb is "Excel in PVE, lack in PVP" and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Ama_Hamada

Agreed, SCH is extremely lacking in PvP and I want to know why.

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When playing Scholar in the feast, you have multiple issues...

1) MP - This issue is very common due to the fact that you are probably pressing Adlo a bit too much to anticipate burst placed on a target. The second part to mp issue is that you hold onto aetherflow stacks for Lustrates or Indom instead of spending them on damage with mp regain and pressing aetherflow when it's up. This causes a huge loss of MP regain. Third part is using the sacrifice fairy skill which takes it away, and doesn't award MP, thus after the time expires on the buff you get and resummon the fairy, you lose a lot of MP that way.

2) Lack of Snare - When playing in the feast, snaring and binding is your way of preventing burst coming to you or allies. Lack of a snare makes it pretty rough on scholars.

3) Dying - When you die, you res with no pet. This forces a swift cast...or if it isn't up, you probably are going in without a fairy unless you like your allies dying.

4) AoE healing can be rough. When a party gets ripped from dots, Indom is really the only counter to it but you NEED to be on top of it. If you fall behind on healing spread damage, you will most likely expend many lustrates trying to keep the current focus target up, leading you to no lustrates, some hurt people still, and having a death.

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Originally Posted by Maddonious

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Your opinion is that AST is OP, and you posted it on a public forum. Coming here and explaining that AST is not OP doesn't equate to being thin-skinned.

Need I remind you that you accused the entire discord community of wintrading and claimed no one PvPs in there?
Clearly don't understand the magnitude of wintrading.

Denouncing a lie(s) is all that has been done.

Assuming toxicity in in-game chat is what got feast chat banned (although not limited to PvP), then no, we are not the reason it's gone.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

I think the rule of thumb is "Excel in PVE, lack in PVP" and vice versa.

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Unless you're a Warrior, lol. Well, even AST actually does pretty solidly in both PVE and PVP content, I just don't think it's OP as the opening post of this thread claims.

MCH is also a meta pick in both raids and Feast.

It is kinda funny that somewhere along the line, having good skills translated to being OP.
AST has very nice shields in PvP, and they excel at that. But they have GARBAGE CC and possibly the most useless PvP unique ability amongst the healers.

Every healer excels at something, and AST is good at instant shielding while SCH gets along well with a mix of slower shielding but an array of insta heals and WHM has so much CC you might as well walk away if you're anything but a WAR because you won't accomplish anything.

Astros don't have the CCs that WHMs have, and they do less healing than WHMs. I'd say sch needs a buff rather than Astro needing another nerf.

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Originally Posted by Slib

2) Lack of Snare - When playing in the feast, snaring and binding is your way of preventing burst coming to you or allies. Lack of a snare makes it pretty rough on scholars.

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You can nab an aoe bind off Thaumaturge :P
But yeah, they need more CCs.

Astro shields are pretty weak, I just play Diurnal astro now :P


Ah, I remember back on Odin... Back when the fold was the thing, We had this sch on the server that used to sell clears, and they wanted to test their mettle in pvp. let's just say they didn't do so well :P, and tried to bribe the pvp group with the money they made from selling clears, to give him wins (several mil too!). And then got very mad when we laughed at the bribes and told him "no."
Most Pvpers have some integrity, and we don't approve of wintrading.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

Healers don't need nerfs until they adjust melee and mch.

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I have to say I disagree. But I will add that I am against healing in PVP in general, but if we absolutely must have it I'd want to either see the healing debuff warrior and nin get apply to PVP targets or healing receive a flat 50% nerf in PVP situations only. I'm a firm believer that healing in PVP should delay death but not prevent it. There is a notable difference between those two concepts.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

I have to say I disagree. But I will add that I am against healing in PVP in general, but if we absolutely must have it I'd want to either see the healing debuff warrior and nin get apply to PVP targets or healing receive a flat 50% nerf in PVP situations only. I'm a firm believer that healing in PVP should delay death but not prevent it. There is a notable difference between those two concepts.

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Odds are super stacked against healer. If a healer has no purify, I can easily solo them on monk if I get running crits. If a monk and mch time their attacks, they can do like 12000+ damage in a second. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you haven't played much high level feast, or have even touched a healer in ranked feast. Any healer in the top 100 will agree with me that you CANNOT heal against good players, someone will die if they are playing correctly. Let's not even bring melee LB into this argument.....

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

If a healer has no purify, I can easily solo them on monk if I get running crits. If a monk and mch time their attacks, they can do like 12000+ damage in a second.

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That would kill everything except tanks, which means the odds are also super stacked against every other job except tanks. Not a very good argument. And one second implies they can do that with only two skills, since there's a 0,5-0,75 animation lock between skills. My personal crit record is like 6,7k with a fully buffed Between the Eyes in close quarters. Can't do that twice in a row, tho, so...number seems a tad exaggerated.

The odds are stacked against healers, yes, because the point and purpose of a healer is to make a game boring and stale by creating a perpetual stalemate of maxed HP on all players. Hence, games with all healers tend to be rather boring and only end thanks to the timer - the game doesn't work when everyone is actively working against it due to their role. Hence, culling time, vulnerability stacks and limit breaks were developed - those are the actual odds stacked against the healer. By design, they have to be denied their endgame and those mechanics were put in place to ensure just that.

Moreover, it says a lot that "playing correctly" in this context always means:"Countering the healer" via coordinated burst. That's not a given in game design, that's only contextually true because healers are so powerful that nothing but burst matters until culling time, as healers can undo everything else. In fact, when you look at job viability in PvP, the main criterion for viability seems to be how well and frequently you can counter the healer.
Summoners are a good example - Truckloads of damage, but so slow that healers can react, hence not favored. MCH - less damage, but so quickly that a healer has trouble reacting, hence meta pick. You name melee Limit Break, but ranged LB actually does more damage if it hits two or more targets. Why is melee limit break considered so powerful or even an issue then? Because it deals the damage to 1 target and thus gives the healer less opportunity to react. That's how powerful healers are, to twist and twirl the entire meta around them.

No surprise that every group wants to have at least one healer. Consequently, I, at least, never saw anyone beg people to please please switch to Monk or Machinist to stand a chance but frequently see people do that for healers. Their only weakness is that since by design, they are working against the winning condition of the mode, stacking them can't lead to success, because it leaves nobody working towards the winning condition of the mode, which is killing. That doesn't take away from their power however, it only shows their basic design flaw.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That would kill everything except tanks, which means the odds are also super stacked against every other job except tanks. Not a very good argument. And one second implies they can do that with only two skills, since there's a 0,5-0,75 animation lock between skills. My personal crit record is like 6,7k with a fully buffed Between the Eyes in close quarters. Can't do that twice in a row, tho, so...number seems a tad exaggerated.

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A crit clean shots damage calculates at the same time as BTE. As does tornado kick into axe kick.

If you stun -> buff clean shot + BTE all of that damage will calculate at once because of the cleanshot damage delay. Same with tornado into axe kick. Tornado calculates slow and axe calculates fast... it isn't an exaggeration, you are just using a false assumption of damage calculating the millisecond you press the skill.

If you don't understand this, I can't take the rest of your post very seriously. How much do you even play high level PvP?

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

You can nab an aoe bind off Thaumaturge :P

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That's a bind though! snaring helps when they are immune to bind and both whm and ast get that. IMO, Miasma 1 should keep a snare. It requires a cast. Miasma 2 should not have a snare effect.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

Snip

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He/she doesn't play high level. They exist solely to contradict.

EDIT: SMN isn't favored because it lacks MP Regen, not because people fail to burst correctly with the job. MCH is meta pick because of their burst and tons of utility.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Hence, culling time, vulnerability stacks and limit breaks were developed - those are the actual odds stacked against the healer.

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You can also look at it in a different light. There are bad dps that need the culling, vuln and limit break just so something dies. Playing at the highest level all around, DPS and crowd control are king.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Moreover, it says a lot that "playing correctly" in this context always means:"Countering the healer" via coordinated burst.

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This is not true. Playing correctly in a team game is more than countering the healer. Stopping enemy burst is more important. Not bursting into tank cooldowns is important. Etc. It's a lot more complex than countering the healer.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

No surprise that every group wants to have at least one healer. Consequently, I, at least, never saw anyone beg people to please please switch to Monk or Machinist to stand a chance but frequently see people do that for healers.

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I have been in many games where people have been asked to change from healer/tank to dps.

The ability to do stuffs while moving is the main issue. They're so annoying and overpowered, yes, I support this thread.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

The ability to do stuffs while moving is the main issue. They're so annoying and overpowered, yes, I support this thread.

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Give all melee cast times in 3.55!

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Originally Posted by Evangela

The ability to do stuffs while moving is the main issue. They're so annoying and overpowered, yes, I support this thread.

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You support everything that nerfs any job but Ninja.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

Give all melee cast times in 3.55!

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I support this.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

Give all melee cast times in 3.55!

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3.0 Bard says hello?

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

3.0 Bard says hello?

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Except Bard isn't a melee and he was joking anyway.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Except Bard isn't a melee and he was joking anyway.

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Well it used to be more melee than magey. I meant be careful what you wish for. How do you know that they won't put a finishing move on Monk that needs a cast bar? You know it would be awesome just like the Black mages that got trapped in circles for dps.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

A crit clean shots damage calculates at the same time as BTE. As does tornado kick into axe kick.

If you stun -> buff clean shot + BTE all of that damage will calculate at once because of the cleanshot damage delay. Same with tornado into axe kick. Tornado calculates slow and axe calculates fast... it isn't an exaggeration, you are just using a false assumption of damage calculating the millisecond you press the skill.

If you don't understand this, I can't take the rest of your post very seriously. How much do you even play high level PvP?

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You're talking about animation cancelling which is a really weird thing. Using an instant "fast" ability immediately following a slow one will make the slow abilities damage appear on your screen, and in your combat log, much faster. Clean shot has about a 1 sec delay, but by following it up with an off-gcd you reduce that delay to about .05 seconds (no really, I fraps'd and checked it frame by frame xD). The weirdness comes into play when you consider that the game exists in multiple states. What you see, what the server sees, and what others see. The game has to make some sort of compromise between those different states and it seems to have a lot of strange rules for how it does that. As an example, anyone who's ever raid tanked as war knows that butchers block is a horrible way to pick up hate because of its delay, so yeah the delay is definitely real in some ways. On the other hand, if I use butchers block on a low level mob, and another character, in my case an alt on a separate account on another computer, shortly after uses an instant cast+fast ability, both attacks appear in the combat log, and the instant cast does appear first, but the kill gets awarded to the butchers block (and this explains a lot of what happens with kills in frontlines xD) So, in some ways, animation delay isnt real and the game considers the attack to have happened much sooner than when you see the damage appear.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that its more complicated than you're making it sound. I'm not really sure I follow the argument here at all, actually xD 2 competent DPS should be able to destroy an equally competent AST. 2 bad dps wont be able to kill a mediocre AST. 2 mediocre dps vs a good AST, well idk, thats a tossup xP depends how good and how mediocre I guess. You shouldnt be comparing AST to DPS, though, because, um, its not a dps? I think ast and whm are pretty well balanced, actually. I feel like ast has an edge at lower skill levels and whm would probably, with the major advantage of sleep, at higher ones, but idk because Im a casul scrub. Sch is def inferior to both, in feast at least. Frontlines all 3 are perfectly viable for the most part. So really I think you'd need to either bring sch up to whm+ast's level, or bring ast+whm down to sch's, and then decide if the role of healer is too great in pvp.

But... really, and frankly, I think people aught to stop looking for scapegoats to blame their failures on.