To people who complain about "elites".

All of this is a product of one thing to me , and it will be worse in storm blood for instance lets say that someone gets to hw , and the only actually extreme primals they cleared was ravana and bismark.

And before that they did all the Arr primals unsync and half the level 50 dungeons unsync , and they just did the hw dungeons. The problem is unsync content creates an environment of people not really seeing how tuff some the things they are destroying because they are ten levels higher really is. So to me its no surprise with how unsync stuff is the norm that the player base will continue to not know how to do certain fights. Think about this for a second basicly when storm blood comes out every arr primal, every hw primal, every raid from hw and arr will be able to be done unsync and it will be done this way.

So to me Id expect nothing less, than a few failed attempts until you finally got something done or cleared. When people get to storm blood if they are new will of had zero experience with any extreme are hard content unless they go out of their way to do it. This is the product of a feature being over used by the player base because content dies fast, and it will continue to effect the player base as long as its being over used.

SE also doesn't help the situation with the level sync cap. Majority of the time it is set far too low, making the majority of low-medium dungeons being able to be steam rolled through.

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Originally Posted by Celef

That !

You can blame people for being bad, but remeber that if they are, it might be because they asked for help and no one thought it would be relevant to give them the good advices....
(I know their are guides and so, but sometimes you might need actual experience from your fellow adventurers)

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I can't give you advice or teach you an opener in 2 minutes lol and expect you to fully understand and execute it. Thats all the first phase of Zurvan is, a friggin opener check (i.e. do you know how to DPS). I have no choice but to kick you from the group.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

I think it depends on why their dps is low. Now if it is a clear party and they are avoiding mechanics etc and dps is low, then I understand peoples frustration. If it is a training party and dps is low because they have hit X mechanics/died etc then I wouldn't judge it so harsh. Although if they joined a last phase training fight and the dps was low then I would also understand being removed.



I actually enjoy helping people get through Ex fights with people who take longer to learn mechanics. I feel it is a bigger achievement. I don't leave anyone out in my FC. If they say they are not capable of doing Ex fights then I will help them get through it.

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Again, holy shit, Zuervan's first phase is an opener check with zero mechanics lol. If 6 DPS cannot achieve a skip, then 3 or more are crap, considering its skippable with 3 DPS, 2 healers and 2 tanks.

In Raid Finder, how do you deal with groups like this? Vote Dismiss/Requeue.

If your not in Raid Finder and you started the group then its up to you what you do. You could drop the group, say 'Sorry, your not performing well enough for us to clear, bye' or set a target to be achieved and if you don't hit it just explain that a clear isn't possible with the current performance and restart a group.

Its not exactly rocket science. People who aren't performing well enough are probably mostly not going to be pleased regardless what you do. I would however strongly not mentioning you are using a parser as using third party software is in violation of the ToS. SE choses to look the other way in regards to people using them as long as they don't make a deal of it. If you use it as a reason for kicking someone in ingame chat that can be reported as a ToS violation and you can get punished for it.

Your dealing with random people here. Its not rocket science. Its basic social etiquette. Don't be a jerk, rude or condescending and things are fine. Sure, your bound to upset someone but that inevitably happens when people feel rejected. However as with any social situation the best bet for both parties is to move on from it and go back to what you enjoy.

The funny thing is, Zurvan doesn't even have a high DPS check. You can beat him with less than 10k rDPS. Most people just rage quit because they don't know how to do Soar.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

The funny thing is, Zurvan doesn't even have a high DPS check. You can beat him with less than 10k rDPS. Most people just rage quit because they don't know how to do Soar.

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The biggest problem is by going in as 6 DPS, the strat has been decided to skip Soar at all costs. If there are members that cannot execute said strat, they must be removed. This is no longer the same mentality as taking standard comp and viewing the skip as a bonus.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Again, holy shit, Zuervan's first phase is an opener check with zero mechanics lol. If 6 DPS cannot achieve a skip, then 3 or more are crap, considering its skippable with 3 DPS, 2 healers and 2 tanks.

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I was referring to Ex fights etc in general not a specific fight.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

snip Thats all the first phase of Zurvan is, a friggin opener check (i.e. do you know how to DPS).

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LMAO. I'm sorry, but this part just cracked me up because of how you worded it.

Also I don't think they're saying have saint-like patience with everyone, eg: I think Masekase mentioned it being unacceptable in a Clear party. Just that in general, out in the world of Roulettes, and Learning Parties people could offer more advice and less.... "LOL GIT GUD *kick*" Since lots of people do learn better by doing instead of reading, you know?

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

The biggest problem is by going in as 6 DPS, the strat has been decided to skip Soar at all costs. If there are members that cannot execute said strat, they must be removed. This is no longer the same mentality as taking standard comp and viewing the skip as a bonus.

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At that point it might be a good idea to re-examine the efficiency of choosing such an all-or-nothing strategy for PF farming. Not really taking any sides, I just find it hilarious when "farm" parties wipe to Soar and try to hide behind DPS requirements because they don't know how to do mechanics properly.

Personally, I wouldn't go for 6 DPS in the first place as that just sounds risky and every wipe is time wasted if you're planning a farm. Sure, it might be great for speed kills, but for a long term farm with random PF people I'd go for something more stable.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Personally, I wouldn't go for 6 DPS in the first place as that just sounds risky and every wipe is time wasted if you're planning a farm. Sure, it might be great for speed kills, but for a long term farm with random PF people I'd go for something more stable.

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Yes and No. I fully understand the logic behind the 6 DPS strat. The all or nothing strat is actually easier to learn simply because you cut out the deadliest mechanic at the nominal price of having 6 people knowing how to do semi-decent openers. That is far easier to do than getting 8 people exactly on the same page regarding soar positions. Plus, the 2nd soar is simply dealt with by Tank LB, the DPS loss is compensated by the 2 additional DPS. Its actually ingenius if it weren't for the fact most DPS don't know how to do decent openers.

Given this community's history with dealing/learning with Divebomb/Ravex style mechanics, I would not consider a non-skip strat to be more stable. Especially if the alternative only requires some people do 75% of their potential with zero P1 mech friction.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Yes GMs have flat out said kicking for any reason is okay, except for parsers, which is a banable offense. The devs have stated that its a don't ask don't tell policy, because it's viewed as harassment. My point was parsing should not be expected to be a part of each run. I shouldn't go into a run expecting to be parsed, and if someone is parsing they should be careful. People are dicks, someone could get kicked for a legitimate reason but if they are aware of the parser they can report you for it, which hurts you not them.

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Yes, but do you honestly think I'll tell you? If you were horrible enough I sought a replacement, I'd either disband the group and reinvite people who were good or point out poor performance without citing numbers. My point is, you could report me for suspicions of parasing, but having no proof. It wouldn't go anywhere. Regardless, you will generally be parsed in extremes and especially savage. That's just the way it is. Chances are if a group suddenly disbands. One of them was parsing and they wanted to get around kicking bad players.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Yes, but do you honestly think I'll tell you? If you were horrible enough I sought a replacement, I'd either disband the group and reinvite people who were good or point out poor performance without citing numbers. My point is, you could report me for suspicions of parasing, but having no proof. It wouldn't go anywhere. Regardless, you will generally be parsed in extremes and especially savage. That's just the way it is. Chances are if a group suddenly disbands. One of them was parsing and they wanted to get around kicking bad players.

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And this is exactly why I don't understand why people who are doing extreme and savage content would be against an official parser. Whenever you join this highest difficulty content, someone is parsing this content 99.9%. If you're being kicked and / or accused of doing poorly, wouldn't you rather know the facts (your numbers compared to the requirements and everyone else in the group) than be kicked or accused blindly... And it would also prevent people who are performing poorly from placing the blame on others.

I don't do top tier content as I don't have the resources, now that I've said that, here's what I really want to say:

We have a great tool now in game in the form of Stone, Sky, Sea (SSS) that allows every player to practice rotations & get used to content, albeit solo & without all mechanics (?). SE missed a huge trick by not including the ability to have a "must have cleared SSS by 85%" (for example) setting on PF groups to ensure that only those who should know their job can get in. We have passworded PFs so this would be no different. By joining such a group you are agreeing to maximise your DPS where appropriate.

Another option is a locked PF whereby to join you must send proof you can clear SSS or have a parse calculation using SSS DPS Calc.

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Originally Posted by Culfinrandir

I don't do top tier content as I don't have the resources, now that I've said that, here's what I really want to say:


Another option is a locked PF whereby to join you must send proof you can clear SSS or have a parse calculation using SSS DPS Calc.

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I agree, this was a real missed opportunity. inb4 idiots who say SSS is unrealistic as it does not include mechaniccs. Honestly, I cannot think of a single mechanic in the game that would actually increase your DPS relative to a dummy except Ravana's DPS stance. If someone cannot output acceptable DPS in a controlled environment with zero external friction, it is highly unlikely they will do well in the actual fight.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

I agree, this was a real missed opportunity. inb4 idiots who say SSS is unrealistic as it does not include mechaniccs. Honestly, I cannot think of a single mechanic in the game that would actually increase your DPS relative to a dummy except Ravana's DPS stance. If someone cannot output acceptable DPS in a controlled environment with zero external friction, it is highly unlikely they will do well in the actual fight.

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Have a feeling I've completely misread your post, but anyway... problem I see with SSS maybe, is I main BLM. Rotation is entirely scripted. The ONLY challenge of blm is sticking to rotation as closely as possible while still managing movement, and minimising it as much as possible. Pew-pewing at a dummy doesn't really help, anyone can easily do the blm rotation without moving.

Then again, I don't know if the SSS for BLM is artificially increased to account for that

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

anyone can easily do the blm rotation without moving.

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You would be wrong on this account.

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Originally Posted by Taika

And this is exactly why I don't understand why people who are doing extreme and savage content would be against an official parser. Whenever you join this highest difficulty content, someone is parsing this content 99.9%. If you're being kicked and / or accused of doing poorly, wouldn't you rather know the facts (your numbers compared to the requirements and everyone else in the group) than be kicked or accused blindly... And it would also prevent people who are performing poorly from placing the blame on others.

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That's my stance as well. When I started Savage this tier, I parsed rather low for Dragoon. Seeing my numbers, I found little ways to improve and also recognized where it was merely gear disparity. I also have my own internal competitiveness. I want to beat my previous parses. I want to beat or stay close to my groups. Why? It's silly fun. While there will undoubtedly be people who ridicule people mercilessly, I still feel significant contributor to people not doing high damage is they don't even realize it. If you've been playing one way the entire time and it's worked. Why would you ever think to question it? Being able to see or be told your exact numbers gives feedback: "Wait? Why is this Monk so much higher than me? What are they doing different?"

What I'll never understand is why they couldn't official sanction the parse everyone uses or make their own and simply ban people who harass others. It's not like they don't know virtually every raid group has at least one person parsing. There's a whole site with all our names on it.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

I agree, this was a real missed opportunity. inb4 idiots who say SSS is unrealistic as it does not include mechaniccs. Honestly, I cannot think of a single mechanic in the game that would actually increase your DPS relative to a dummy except Ravana's DPS stance. If someone cannot output acceptable DPS in a controlled environment with zero external friction, it is highly unlikely they will do well in the actual fight.

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The problem isn't that the dps is unrealistic in SSS. It's that it is a snapshot of performance, and not an indication of current behavior. I see plenty of people who can obviously perform, but aren't for whatever reason.

If someone's doing badly enough you won't clear, you don;t necessarily need a parser to know this.

It's a second-hand story, but I once watched my partner in a nidex learning party at the later end of the patch where it was introduced, so the dps checks still required people to be something resembling awake. Over and over again, they failed on the dps checks despite doing the mechanics pretty much perfectly, at least after the first couple of times. Who was responsible was obvious even to me, watching for two minutes over her shoulder, and she's on ps4 so she CAN'T parse.

Like, I queued for zurvex completion the other day for the first time, after wiping to soar/adds/maybe tethers over and over again in p1 practice. From my experiences in p1 prac, after the soars, I moved him to the edge to prepare for wave cannon, which I had seen every. single. time. beforehand.

I got DESTROYED by the party. "don't move him from the centre" "wtf are you doing tank" "do you know how to tank this?" from some incredibly confused and frustrated dps. They didn't even know you could SEE wave cannon in part 1. The dps in p1 practice runs was just that terrible I had learned a bad tactic to compensate. The more you know, I suppose? (And, yes, I admitted why I'd done it, and explained what I'd seen and what I hadn't, and was given some very friendly guidance and a "watch me mt" from the War who, as far as I could tell, had either cleared before and was helping friends or had seen enrage a bunch. It was really useful and I'm grateful they took the time to talk to me about it!)

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Correct but how do those player know they are playing wrong all they ever here from random people is hey do this I've yet to see a single person go "hey you should visit and check out the guide for your class" as the tooltips don't tell you everything.

@Greedalox I'm a veteran mmo player and like all mmos they don't teach you how to play the game when it comes to high level content so this was my first stop when i decided to hop into raiding.

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I don't really suggest going to look at guides during a dungeon, but I do suggest hey would you like some tips? Sure okay here is the blm aoe rotations, here is warrior cd rotation on large sets of mobs. I have and still go into dungeons with them and walk them through the skills of their job. I know I am not the only one. Ex fights are not the best places to do the same unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

.....

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A few question to help me understand:

What do you consider a below average dps? If we consider 100% being the best DPS, did you really mean it mathematically as a dps doing less than 50% ?

And can an average skilled party complete Zorvan Ex regardless of the time and phases it may take?

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

A few question to help me understand:

What do you consider a below average dps? If we consider 100% being the best DPS, did you really mean it mathematically as a dps doing less than 50% ?

And can an average skilled party complete Zorvan Ex regardless of the time and phases it may take?

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If we consider 100% being best, then 50% is the average break point. I expect no less than 50%.

Yes they were doing below 50%. Because 6 dps unable to skip while I had parties where we were actually able to skip with 4 not even 5 dps.

I did consider their gear. Two had iL270, three had iL260-264, one was iL253.

Would you believe me if I told the iL253 was 3rd on dps? That is how bad it was.

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Originally Posted by Ralts

Stop being a drama queen

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I take it you're incapable of detecting sarcasm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

And can an average skilled party complete Zorvan Ex regardless of the time and phases it may take?

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No. Like every other Ex primal and Alexander, the fights have a fixed timer called "hard enrage". When the time is over, the boss one shots the entire party.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Then again, I don't know if the SSS for BLM is artificially increased to account for that

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Both blm and mnk SSS are tuned much higher than the other dps

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Originally Posted by Yeol

[...]
However, when you join Extreme/Savage kill or training parties, that is another story.
Here is what to expect:
- Someone will always have parse (ACT) working.
- Not every group will agree to keep a below average skilled player in their party.

If you were called out or kicked, don't come here and complain or spread bad things about skilled players. They simply don't want to waste their time.
[...]

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If that's the case the solution is really simple: report and let the GMs handle it. It rarely helps complaining about others' behaviour in channels that do not have the capacity to ban them.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

No. Like every other Ex primal and Alexander, the fights have a fixed timer called "hard enrage". When the time is over, the boss one shots the entire party.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

If we consider 100% being best, then 50% is the average break point. I expect no less than 50%.

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As you should be then. Fair enough :)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Yes, but do you honestly think I'll tell you? If you were horrible enough I sought a replacement, I'd either disband the group and reinvite people who were good or point out poor performance without citing numbers. My point is, you could report me for suspicions of parasing, but having no proof. It wouldn't go anywhere. Regardless, you will generally be parsed in extremes and especially savage. That's just the way it is. Chances are if a group suddenly disbands. One of them was parsing and they wanted to get around kicking bad players.

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I wasn't referring to PUG instances per se, but actual statics between friends/FC members. Most friends and FC members use parsers to help each other, which is fine, but we all know things can go south and escalate rather quickly, for the most simple of things. And if things go that far and and the person who is "disgruntled" reports the person/people who used a parser, SE has the ability to check; parsing leaves a trace on their servers and SE has basically stated "they wont go in and look for it if they don't have to, but if they have to, they have to do something about it"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

What I'll never understand is why they couldn't official sanction the parse everyone uses or make their own and simply ban people who harass others. It's not like they don't know virtually every raid group has at least one person parsing. There's a whole site with all our names on it.

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Parsing yourself is fine, and as you indicated, it helps you understand your numbers and where/how you'd like to improve. But the main reason parsing it's not allowed will always be because it invites/can cause harassment. The easiest way I could probably explain it is think of this like school, possible High School, but maybe more Middle. We all know there are people who are the best at everything they do, and that their are people who are the worst of the worst, whether they try but aren't good, or they don't try at all. We may think we know who the "low ballers" are, but if it's made public it can invite both entitlement for those who are "good" at things, and hardship/discouragement for those that are "bad" at things. There was a reason why teachers never announced the lowest grades to the class, or that the coach in gym class made sure to separate the "good" players when making teams; and there is always going to be that person who was/is picked last. Cause when you get right down to it kids are mean; and before you say it, some players are kids and some adult never outgrow a high school mentality, if they did this wouldn't even be a topic of discussion. And as for SE's stance, I'm going to use this as my example, one, because it's the only thing I can think of and, two, because I feel it will drive the point home. You exist because of your parents, so you are aware that you parents "decided" to have you, but do you honestly want to think about that "decision". That is basically SE's stance, they know it's there but don't bring up the topic; you know about the "decision" but you don't wanna think about it.

Just because I feel like tossing out my two cents;

I actually agree--if you are doing Extreme/Savage content, you should know how to do your job at this stage of the game.

I'm far from the best DPS/Healer, but I can confidently say that I'm versed on my main and secondary classes. I also enjoy when experienced players will guide "new" people(which is sometimes myself) through a dungeon, explaining the mechanics of the bosses and such. It helps to teach, and is also a healthy attitude on the part of the leader.

Shout out to all of the good mentors that do that kind of stuff. Your deeds do not go unnoticed. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Blonde_Huntress

Just because I feel like tossing out my two cents;

I actually agree--if you are doing Extreme/Savage content, you should know how to do your job at this stage of the game.

I'm far from the best DPS/Healer, but I can confidently say that I'm versed on my main and secondary classes. I also enjoy when experienced players will guide "new" people(which is sometimes myself) through a dungeon, explaining the mechanics of the bosses and such. It helps to teach, and is also a healthy attitude on the part of the leader.

Shout out to all of the good mentors that do that kind of stuff. Your deeds do not go unnoticed. ^_^

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You are the player everyone should be, XD

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Originally Posted by Eloah

parsing leaves a trace on their servers and SE has basically stated "they wont go in and look for it if they don't have to, but if they have to, they have to do something about it".

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Thats a load of crap, do you even know how parsing works? Hint you can parse without ACT using just a pen, paper and pocket calculator. Trust me, the only way SE can know that kind of information is if ACT literally tells them "I am here!!!" which it doesnt, or if SE installed spywear on my PC (which will be swiftly dealt with by BitDefender)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

A few question to help me understand:

What do you consider a below average dps? If we consider 100% being the best DPS, did you really mean it mathematically as a dps doing less than 50% ?

And can an average skilled party complete Zorvan Ex regardless of the time and phases it may take?

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The rotations in FFXIV are usually designed that if a person utilizes most of their offensive cooldowns, stack their DoTs and applies their appropriate debuffs on the boss, they should achieve roughly 60-75% of their job's potential at a particular gear level. Typically, the damage improvement from gear is only 20-30% every raid tier. Like going from ilevel 240-270 is iirc 30%.

To go below 50% means you typically are either using gear that is two progression patches old and/or don't perform your rotation properly.

Like is said earlier, the issue with zurvan is people are trying to burst him to 75% in the opening phase of the fight to skip soar. They "guarantee" this by bringing 6 DPS jobs. However, if all the DPS are performing at 50% or lower, the skip will still not happen thus negating the effectiveness of the strat.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Thats a load of crap, do you even know how parsing works? Hint I can parse without ACT using just a pen, paper and pocket calculator.

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Yes I am aware of how it works. Anyone is able to read about it. But what you do with your pen, paper, and calculator, is only on the surface, the parser is reading data from your memory you aren't supposed to see. It's essentially data mining on the smallest scale. And anything like that leaves a digital trace, no matter how small or how unnoticeable it might seem. Think of it like deleting files from your computer, they aren't truly gone, not for some time anyway. And most developers today are placing anti-piracy measures in their games; being an MMORPG I doubt SE isn't doing the same. And I know it's not piracy, just using the example.

Oh, and before you or anyone else says anything about this information, both my father and a friend of mine have studied computers and work on them for a living, so yay free IT support for me, but I do worry sometimes if anything "private" I have on my laptop is discovered, if they ever take a look to fix an issue I am having. Remember, we live in a digital age, unless you are completely off the grid, anyone who wants it can get any information they want.

Also I am done with this, it seems to have escalated well beyond what it should have. Use a parser, don't use a parser, people can do whatever they want, just don't harass people because of the knowledge you gain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Also I am done with this, it seems to have escalated well beyond what it should have. Use a parser, don't use a parser, people can do whatever they want, just don't harass people because of the knowledge you gain.

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Again, please humour me. When you do a read + copy operation on RAM, there is absolutely no way the other party can know unless the information is quantum encrypted (or conventionally encrypted so that ACT cannot read it). The information is literally sitting there on the RAM on the local PC, ACT only reads what is already there and collates it. This is essentially how some spywear works by scooping your encryption keys off the RAM. ACT is basically just an advanced form of pen and paper, it reads what is already there and collates it (hint, this info is located in your battle log). Its no different to manually copying your battle log and putting it in an excel spreadsheet. Trust me when I say there is no way for them to know or stop it unless they remove the battle log completely. Unless of course, FFXIV has some kind of punkbuster-like software or encrypts access to a specific memory space (which already happens to counter cheats).

Let me educate you on some points. Data is stored in CPU cache, RAM and persistent storage. Data in CPU cache can only be retained so long as power is fed to the unit, once power is gone, the electrons disperse thus the data is gone in a few nanoseconds. RAM is the same except RAM is essentially a massive array of capacitors, capacitors retain a charge for a brief while when power is cut thus you can forensically recover data from the RAM of a PC if you quickly chill the RAM sticks to prevent electron dispersion, when you delete something off the RAM while power is on, you literally have a few nanoseconds before the refresh cycle is initiated on the RAM banks. Persistent storage is both HDD or SSD, for HDD the data remains so long as the bits on the platter are not magnetically wiped, for SSD, the cells need to be flushed so if you delete something off either, the data is recoverable if you can get to it before garbage collection kicks in. None of this is relevant to ACT parsing btw because almost all these methods need local access to the machine to find the "trace", to do so remotely would require spywear that has root level access to your stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloah

parsing leaves a trace on their servers.

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Um. No. It doesn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eloah

the parser is reading data from your memory you aren't supposed to see.

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In its old base configuration, ACT is reading the log files which FFXIV saves in Documents\My Games\Final Fantasy XIV - A ream reborn\FFXIV_CHR<personal Number>\log

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And anything like that leaves a digital trace, no matter how small or how unnoticeable it might seem.

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You really don't know what you are talking about. Reading is a non invasive access. Without using some features of the memory management unit (MMU) you will not recognise any read access. Programms running in userspace don't can use these features. There is a technical reason, the "warden" of WoW is installed as a service with elevated rights.

Quote:

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Think of it like deleting files from your computer, they aren't truly gone, not for some time anyway.

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And the reason is: The file content itself get not deleted. Only the link to the file get removed from the diretory structure. Save alot of time. In case of a SSD, you would need to overwrite the entire free space everytime you delete a file when you would want to delete the file content too.