Forbidden Materia, meant for the hardcore or just the lucky?

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

By the time I finally finish the gloves, the cap will be raised, there will be better gloves, and there will likely also be higher tier / different materia.

As a hardcore player, I feel that the work I'd be putting into this personal quest of mine would simply be made obsolete as the time I invest into it passes. It all seems to contradict itself.

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This. At some point Square is going to realize that crafting gear can't out rank instance gear and still have instances be interesting to the MMO public at large. This will eventually be 'reworked' the same way they have reworked all the other 'novel but faulty' game mechanics. This coupled with a cap raise or two will put all of your time and effort to waste.

But in reality this all a 'waste of time' so if you enjoy the process, that's all the counts.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Did you actually read the post? None of the materia he's trying to meld it tier IV. . .

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Yes I did, he also said that there is a shortage of materia. I disagree, and forbidden melding is supposed to be hi-risk.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

Yes I did, he also said that there is a shortage of materia. I disagree, and forbidden melding is supposed to be hi-risk.

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Well, to be fair, you also suggested that I do lower tier melds instead of Tier IVs. That's probably why Viridiana asked if you read the OP, because in it I clearly stated that I'm only using T2 and T3 materia to make these. The vast majority of them are T2 STR materia.

And trust me, there is a very short supply of these, partially because most people who make them just toss or npc them, and partially because nobody SBs lower lv gear really, so they're not as common as higher tier materia.

Surely, they need and will raise the success rate at some point. (possible v2) But for now, they just make real-hardcore goal to keep you guys playing.

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Originally Posted by Alise

Surely, they need and will raise the success rate at some point. (possible v2) But for now, they just make real-hardcore goal to keep you guys playing.

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Once HQ material = HQ gear (I believe that's 1.21), the flood of HQ gear will increase the success rate by default. At that point 2x and 3x melded gear will become common place, further making gear earned though instances and bosses battles useless.

It's strange how the focus on crafters has been reduced in importance while the efforts of battle and mage classes have been made irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Celtodeno

Once HQ material = HQ gear (I believe that's 1.21), the flood of HQ gear will increase the success rate by default. At that point 2x and 3x melded gear will become common place, further making gear earned though instances and bosses battles useless.

It's strange how the focus on crafters has been reduced in importance while the efforts of battle and mage classes have been made irrelevant.

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Your are wrong tho, I can confirm you that Ifrit battleaxe (which take only little effort to get for free.) is stronger than Buffalo NM Axe +2 plus 2x of +30 attack power materia (+60 extra att). My server have less than 10x of NM axe (+2) or (+3) and this is only one axe so far that got 2x IV materia addition. So the rarest axe in my server got beaten by Ifrit battleaxe that around 100+ people have them.

You're basically not supposed to get 5 materia on an item, as you say - the probabilities are too low.

The system is fine. Everyone can get 1 materia on. Those who are willing to gather 5-6 items and 5-6 more materia should be able to get a second one on.

The more hardcore will be willing to try for 3 materia.

Aim for 3 materia on all of your items.

This only proves atleast one thing: WE NEED MORE PLAYABLE CONTENT!

The issue is not the success rate, it's the fact that it's completely random and not controllable in any way.
I'm ok with failing 100 times, but I want to blame myself when it happens, for makin wrong choices or using wrong skills.

It's not like adding an extremely low success rate to something makes it hardcore, it has to be more. Aiming for 3 materia right now is not for hardcore players, it's for bored players.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Honestly I think this whole materia thing is really awfully implemented. I get that they're meant to be for "hardcore players", but imho in order to be considered a "hardcore content" it should involve some kind of skill, right now it's just too random.

For instance, the reward from an extremely hard dungeon, with hard bosses and low drop rate is random, but still it's the fact that it takes effort to complete it multiple times that makes it hardcore. It doesn't take any effort to meld materias.

I might be wrong, but to me it seems like the system is built just to be gil consuming untill the game is done, so that at the release we won't have the awful economy we had before it was implemented.
It needs much more depth in order to be considered a "content".

I agree with all the things the OP suggested and I would add that it would be nice if the percentage could be controllable in some ways, like an affinity system where different types of materia of the same tier have different percentage to success, or different percentage for different gears, or even a minigame involving some skills from the crafter when melding.

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This has been argued before. You cant say it takes more effort to run a mindless dungeon 50 times then to get the required crafts and materia needed to make this stuff. In fact its taken me more time and effort to lvl crafts then to run a raid over and over. Difficulty has nothing to do with it because both are arguably easy tasks.

Well, because it is statistically possible for me to get the max amount of the highest level materia in ny given piece of gear, the factual answer is luck.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

This has been argued before. You cant say it takes more effort to run a mindless dungeon 50 times then to get the required crafts and materia needed to make this stuff. In fact its taken me more time and effort to lvl crafts then to run a raid over and over. Difficulty has nothing to do with it because both are arguably easy tasks.

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That's not my point, what I meant is that when doing a dungeon there is a drop rate that affects the reward, but the most important thing is getting to the end of the dungeon and when talking about hardcore content it shouldn't be taken for granted.
If I don't get to the end of the dungeon it's only my fault and i deserve not to get the reward. That's the part missing in the forbidden melding process. Getting a DoH to 50 is time consuming, but it's not hard or engaging, just as gathering materials for 100x recipes or spiritbonding 500x materia.

I'm not saying that forbidden melding is easy, I'm saying that right now it can't be considered a hardcore content because you don't get the feeling that you actually had a part in that process.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

That's not my point, what I meant is that when doing a dungeon there is a drop rate that affects the reward, but the most important thing is getting to the end of the dungeon and when talking about hardcore content it shouldn't be taken for granted.
If I don't get to the end of the dungeon it's only my fault and i deserve not to get the reward. That's the part missing in the forbidden melding process. Getting a DoH to 50 is time consuming, but it's not hard or engaging, just as gathering materials for 100x recipes or spiritbonding 500x materia.

I'm not saying that forbidden melding is easy, I'm saying that right now it can't be considered a hardcore content because you don't get the feeling that you actually had a part in that process.

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It's not about "hardcore content". You imply that its more meaningful to get your gear from a boss fight or raid then to craft it when that's pure opinion. I do not find the raids and boss fights in this game rewarding or engaging and doing them over and over is very boring, but that's my opinion and how i like to play. I'm not saying you don't deserve to have great gear because you fight the same thing over and over and it takes no effort. So is your point that because crafting doesn't require fighting it shouldn't be able to make really good gear?

Oh, I'd like to throw up to extra ideas for materia crafting. Don't think those are good enough to make a new thread, tho.

1 - Materia Fusion - Fuse 2+ materia of the same tier to get tier +1 materia; Fusing more than 2 materia increases the chance that the created materia will have higher stats. This would give an use to repeated materias or low level materia for higher level players.

2 - Materia recipes - Alchemy recipes actually using materia and or some material(s) to create a new materia. Random ex: Eye of Fire X 2 + Fire Moraine + Catalyst + Fire Crystal = Fire Materia or Fire Materia + Wind Materia + Lightning Materia + catalyst = Astral Materia, etc, etc.

Instead of the proposed fusion (available to everyone), those are crafting recipes, following the same rules as a regular craft and having higher chance for better stats based on quality. Maybe a few materia types should only be obtainable by crafting. This would include Alchemists in the materia fun.

3 - Spiritbond + and Forbidden Craft + food recipes for culinarians.

Multiple materia melds are supposed to be hard.

High-level materia is supposed to be in scarce in supply.

What's the problem here? That you can't easily develop uber-gear?

I'm pretty sure if you could get M5 on a lot of gear, it would make new content far too easy, and then you'd be saying that's a problem, too.

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Originally Posted by Raagnar

It's not about "hardcore content". You imply that its more meaningful to get your gear from a boss fight or raid then to craft it when that's pure opinion. I do not find the raids and boss fights in this game rewarding or engaging and doing them over and over is very boring, but that's my opinion and how i like to play. I'm not saying you don't deserve to have great gear because you fight the same thing over and over and it takes no effort. So is your point that because crafting doesn't require fighting it shouldn't be able to make really good gear?

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That's not what I said, actually I didn't like when they made NM drop finished items and i liked much better when they were dropping materials that then crafters would use for unique items.
What I meant is that forbidden melding in order to be considered a content can't be completely based on luck, it must involve both luck and some sort of skill from the player, being it a minigame like what we have right now when crafting, or a more depth system with an affinity chart between different materias, or between matera and gear, or a success rate depending on stats, moon phases or whatever.

I didn't mean that dropped gear should be more powerfull than crafted gear, I was just comparing the two situations pointing out that I have a role in dropping gears, while I absolutely don't in melding.

If you succeeded at making the item you would have gloves that would be the best stat wise until you could duplicate the same results, the only real difference would be lower defense, and access to slightly higher teirs. Also its pretty hardcore, because rather than taking a gambler's approach, you are taking a an approach that is more based on matching an insane probability with effort. IE

gambler buys a lottery ticket
hardcore person buys every possible number combination

but honestly, dont kid yourselves, range and supply were a big factor in dynamis anyhow. The fact is almost everyone who got dynamis weapons did so on the back of hundreds of other players hours. the gamble there was in how many would drop per run. In all honesty the materia system isnt meant to be easily obtained, it is intended to be fairly insane to achieve, requiring either supreme luck, or supreme patience.

My reccomendation for how to go about doing so that it can feel more incremental and less random, at least once you get to teir 3 or so,

make an attempt whenever you succeed and keep at least one from that teir. IE you only try to upgrade when you at least 2 for any teir.
get a level 3, dont attempt level 4 till you have two level 3, keep one level 3 at all times. This way you can have an illusion of progress and always have access to a good item while trying to obtain it

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Originally Posted by Dragonheart

Right, they could do a thing like this: Raid/dungeon drop.

-Normal mode= 1 socket
- Hard mode = same item with 2 socket

crafted gears:

-NQ = 1 socket
-HQ = 2 socket

so this will give more sense to hq too...

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Quoting my self for more visibility.. I'd like to hear more opinion on this system (the same, and most functional in almost every new/old MMO) ..

The predefinied (not lolrandomluck ecc ecc) socket system will pay BOTH PLAYERS that like to CRAFT and sell HQ item (+1 socket on an hq item is more attractive than +2 , 3 def eva etc no?
And even skilled players that can BEAT HARD CONTENT and at the same time maybe dont have time to craft/farm for money to buy tons of equip item and try the luck..

What do you think? (sorry for my bad english)

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

As a hardcore player, I feel that the work I'd be putting into this personal quest of mine would simply be made obsolete as the time I invest into it passes. It all seems to contradict itself.

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It's likely best to save your efforts for when the dust has settled. Too many changes to crafting and gear, and with level cap increase on the horizon we'll expect higher level crafted gear as well.

If you have the resources, then by all means you should, and you have some valid concerns in your post. But overall like I said i'd personally wait to see where the game settles before starting on such an adventure :D

It's not hard. Melding materia is 0% skill 100% luck.

I submit you just do it!

It would be absolutely hilarious if you got a 5 meld gloves on your first try.

Hey... it could happen.

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Originally Posted by grandm

in short the reason not so many ppl are, "up in arms" as you put it. is because as new content is released, it is released with new and better gear, new content bring better gear that makes old gear obsolete, there is no reason to believe what is to come in the future won't be better than materia. materia came after the dungeons that are out so it is better. but 1.21 will have newer stuff that will be better again. if not then complain

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They will not release gear that is better than gear with materia. If they do, noone will meld anymore. They will add more rare/ex gear for sure, but they will also come up with new normal gear that, when melded with 2 or so tiers of materia will become better.

The system is broken right now, there is no skill involved, only luck and gil. Like someone already said, the only way to have the best gear in the game right now is if you have lots of gil, which is RMT heaven.

I hope they either change this to something Meowie or someone else suggested, quest or HNM which drop certain key items that give you a materia slot, or something else that removes this gil sink out of the equation and replaces it with a time sink.

Hmm, I'd disagree that long term time investments are not hardcore. While I disagree with the way materia has been introduced, it does still retain the time sink aspect that many hardcore players look for. Unless, of course, you're the lucky .0001% of the community and go 1/1 on M5 meld.

It's not just difficult content that constitutes hardcore. If that was the case, it would seem to imply that casual content is easy, which isn't the case. The time it takes to be rewarded, though, directly relates to what type of player it's made for.

Take FFXI relics for example. Although they were created for only the most hardcore players, there was nothing difficult about them. All that was required was shouting in Jeuno/Whitegate for months (much like I'll be doing with materia) and getting lucky on a few NMs. The NMs were like clockwork for shells that regularly did them. Sure, they may have been difficult for the first Linkshells attempting them, but as time passed and strategies were formed, it just became routine.

So while I do like the idea of multiple materia melds requiring hard boss fights, there still needs to be more to it. Eventually these fights will become a joke and would be spammed much like all other content we've seen so far. But whatever that extra part of it is, the final item should represent the effort put into making it.

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Originally Posted by Abauge_Goga

I hope they either change this to something Meowie or someone else suggested, quest or HNM which drop certain key items that give you a materia slot, or something else that removes this gil sink out of the equation and replaces it with a time sink.

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It's not even a gil sink because the gil goes to other players rather than disappearing from circulation. Still, it's incredibly pro-RMT.

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Originally Posted by Frein

It's not even a gil sink because the gil goes to other players rather than disappearing from circulation. Still, it's incredibly pro-RMT.

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it is a gil sink because of the taxing. the market wards tax system is one big gil sink.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

it is a gil sink because of the taxing. the market wards tax system is one big gil sink.

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Well, that's just the market wards that are the gil sink, not necessarily the materia system. There's no tax for shouting and purchasing through /trade for instance.

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Originally Posted by Frein

It's not even a gil sink because the gil goes to other players rather than disappearing from circulation. Still, it's incredibly pro-RMT.

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Suggest something that can make you gil in game and drive the economy without being incredibly pro-RMT. I doubt you can. I doubt anyone else can either.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

How are these any different? Whether in bulk or one at a time either is no more "hardcore" than the other. It's the same odds either way.

The problem with trying to predict how many attempts it'd take is pointless as it is completely luck-based.

You can do it on your first set of gloves, or you're 10,000th. Until chances for success increase with successive attempts, each attempt is its own unique occurrence completely independent from the others.

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They are different because with option one, as soon as you make progress and successfully meld 2, you blow it up trying to meld a 3rd. In the second option, you buy materials in bulk to reach X amount with Y amount of materia on them. As you go further and further, the goal is to get X to equal one and Y to equal 5.

Its a gear sink not a gil sink, though some taxes on sold materia and gear do come into play the main purpose is to give NQ gear a reason to exist. Crafters can currently grind gear and turn profit easily selling the gear for SB purposes.

Right now its very reasonable to go for a double IV materia item. Odds put you in or around a 1/5 ~ 1/6 chance on double IV's. A double IV makes a visible difference in DPS / HPS(healing per second). Going any higher then tripple's is a useless pipedream. Tripples puts you around a 1/50 shot when adding in cost of materia and materials as an example from strait math it would cost me around 5M to make a tripple STR IV glove giving me a +50 STR give or take bonus.

For me its a fun long term Mini-Game: Every time I make a new successfull double forbid I try for a tripple on the weaker of the 2. Yesterday I did some PL'ing and had some extra STR IV's pop out. I was able to make a +29STR glove (+12 > +17). I took my old +23 gloves and tried adding a 3rd. This blew up but eventually over time I hope to have a full set of tripples. Sure I might get lucky and get a quad but its not my current goal, its just part of the mini game for me.

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Originally Posted by tachikoma

Odds put you in or around a 1/5 ~ 1/6 chance on double IV's.

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I went 0 for 7 trying to double meld tier IIIs this weekend on an axe. :(

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Originally Posted by tymora

Suggest something that can make you gil in game and drive the economy without being incredibly pro-RMT. I doubt you can. I doubt anyone else can either.

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Correct. Because of RMT and the fact that participating in economic activities like trade and manufacturing is mostly rather boring, I would not design an MMO to be centered on the economy. Over here we call it work and most of us do it only because we get paid for it.

I like the idea of Materia being sold by NPCs, this game needs more gil sinks to help deflate the baloon of an economy. In stead of changing the spirtbond rate they should consider that. The rate seems decent to me atm.

so yesterday i started multi melding it didnt go well. I decided to start with something easy. 2 grade 3 bloodthirst to cobalt sollerets. I tryed 2 times, the second time the materia was a little better. The first one gave me 27%success, botched. the second one gave me 29%success, botched. That being said, the % is pretty good if you wanna do 2 grade 3 materia. One more try and i might have gotten it.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

so yesterday i started multi melding it didnt go well. I decided to start with something easy. 2 grade 3 bloodthirst to cobalt sollerets. I tryed 2 times, the second time the materia was a little better. The first one gave me 27%success, botched. the second one gave me 29%success, botched. That being said, the % is pretty good if you wanna do 2 grade 3 materia. One more try and i might have gotten it.

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Eh, that's not always the case though. Last night I did 25 M2 melds with 34-35% success rates, only 6 successful. Failed 12 in a row.

I'm curious if moon phase affects it in any way.

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Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Eh, that's not always the case though. Last night I did 25 M2 melds with 34-35% success rates, only 6 successful. Failed 12 in a row.

I'm curious if moon phase affects it in any way.

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im gonna farm a ton of materia when i lvl my mrd up then ill play with it some more

by the way can anyone tell me what makes +enmity materia?

First thing, ask yourself why do u need to have multiple meld? Feel elite, wana be competitive?
Require skill to do multiple meld to feel more hardcore than having luck in melding??
To be honest, you don't even need a single meld to play the content at the moment, so why is there a need for you
to use skill to do multiple meld?
And when you can't do multiple meld because you don't bear to dump gil into a silly luck thing, just don't do it!
I don't see a problem in that. Why don't you guys just forget about the melding thing and continue to be your own
way of "Hardcore" (your own skillful way)
Cause it is obviously for those who got patient and slowly upgrade their gear, as someone mentioned, dont risk on a 3rd meld when you don't even have a spare 2nd meld gear.
If i happen to see someone with a M5 gear, i'll compliment him as a hardcore patient chap.
Some may just treat them as a lucky idiot. It's your decision to make.
Overall, i like feeling elite and i wont stop at upgrading my gear, even if new gear is out, i'll just start melding them
whenever I've enough gil to spare.
If those who still don't agree to the term Hardcore, I just hope Yoshi change his statement that multiple melding is
for those who feel lucky. Probably this will make those guys who complain feel better...

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Originally Posted by urhryu

First thing, ask yourself why do u need to have multiple meld? Feel elite, wana be competitive?
Require skill to do multiple meld to feel more hardcore than having luck in melding??
To be honest, you don't even need a single meld to play the content at the moment, so why is there a need for you
to use skill to do multiple meld?
And when you can't do multiple meld because you don't bear to dump gil into a silly luck thing, just don't do it!
I don't see a problem in that. Why don't you guys just forget about the melding thing and continue to be your own
way of "Hardcore" (your own skillful way)
Cause it is obviously for those who got patient and slowly upgrade their gear, as someone mentioned, dont risk on a 3rd meld when you don't even have a spare 2nd meld gear.
If i happen to see someone with a M5 gear, i'll compliment him as a hardcore patient chap.
Some may just treat them as a lucky idiot. It's your decision to make.
Overall, i like feeling elite and i wont stop at upgrading my gear, even if new gear is out, i'll just start melding them
whenever I've enough gil to spare.
If those who still don't agree to the term Hardcore, I just hope Yoshi change his statement that multiple melding is
for those who feel lucky. Probably this will make those guys who complain feel better...

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how about the fact that i can sell a double meld for a ton of gil, why dont you stop telling poeple how they shuold play the game. multi melding is in the game for a reason ahole

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

how about the fact that i can sell a double meld for a ton of gil, why dont you stop telling poeple how they shuold play the game. multi melding is in the game for a reason ahole

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And e reason is?

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

im gonna farm a ton of materia when i lvl my mrd up then ill play with it some more

by the way can anyone tell me what makes +enmity materia?

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Belts and wrists, maybe weapons too but I'm not positive.