DF Tanks and Whm

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Not sure how, I cant even get that over 3 minutes on a dummy.

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It is very possible thanks to party buffs (AST Cards, trick attack, storms eyes, hypercharge, battle litany) and if you have a NIN is it easy.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Not sure how, I cant even get that over 3 minutes on a dummy.

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Trick Attack, Litany, Storm/Dancing Edge, access to Swipe, etc. etc. will help quite a bit

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

And you'll be told "playstyle differences"

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Actually, "harassment" over parses is very much a flat black and white. That's... kinda the OP's issue. tanks pulling "unacceptable" dps solely because of tank stance...

Now, I would understand the playstyle sarcastic remark if it were flipped. I can see that if the MT never once touched tank stance

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Originally Posted by Yeol

It is very possible thanks to party buffs (AST Cards, trick attack, storms eyes, hypercharge, battle litany) and if you have a NIN is it easy.

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Makes sense. But then, thats not the tank doing dps, thats the tank getting party buffs :P I dont really care either way, I was just surprised that the buffs had that much of an effect. ive been top dps in the old 2.0 24man raids on PLD >.>

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Makes sense. But then, thats not the tank doing dps, thats the tank getting party buffs :P I dont really care either way, I was just surprised that the buffs had that much of an effect.

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He still needs to know how to DPS as main tank, pop CDs properly to survive in Sword Oath, and use the exact number of Halones to keep aggro and no more (DPS loss and all). If we had a MCH he could definitely do better (and if our WHM would learn to play AST better :\ ). 1800 DPS in A9S for PLD is 95th percentile (ish), so its not easy to get to.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

This actually goes back to the party.
DPs and healers have abilities to reduce their aggro generation. It helps tanks a lot, but sadly you won't find people using them regularly in DF because they don't think they are necessary.

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I do Alex normal on two characters each week (usually as tank...and I know I'm crazy already, thanks), I've never had issues holding aggro, even in DPS stance. Usually those who don't reduce their enmity don't generate enough to require it to be reduced, and those that can potentially steal aggro use their abilities. If I slip up, or someone good does forget, I need to be in tank stance a little longer and use another aggro combo or three. Not a big deal; I'm not in DF to get good DPS, I'm there to get my weekly token as painlessly as possible. Savage is where I really try to get good numbers.
And if I'm in tank stance the entire time thanks to something going wrong (even if that's just a bad party), I don't even pay attention to party aggro since I'm generating too much, unless I'm on DRK (seriously, if a WAR loses hate they're just bad. Or ridiculously undergeared)

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Originally Posted by PArcher

He still needs to know how to DPS as main tank, pop CDs properly to survive in Sword Oath, and use the exact number of Halones to keep aggro and no more (DPS loss and all). If we had a MCH he could definitely do better (and if our WHM would learn to play AST better :\ ). 1800 DPS in A9S for PLD is 95th percentile (ish), so its not easy to get to.

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It's also largely irrelevant, because it's happening in catered runs. A lot of people play vastly below a certain competency threshold (I would argue I have plenty of room to improve myself), but fflogs percentile is not how to guage expected ordinary performance.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

If you're a good tank, no-one in DF will pull aggro from you. Even when full-on DPSing. If you lose aggro, its all on you.

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If you've seen the amount of WHM and AST I've seen overhealing like mad you wouldn't say such a thing. Also yeah like others said healers like that don't know what Shroud is or care about their hate.

I even saw an AST use Collective right at the beginning of a fight for no reason and use a Diurnal Aspected Helios since obviously the Collectives 3500 HP a tick regen on everyone wasn't enough right /sarcasm lol, MT could no longer use anything but hate combos since the AST was right on his butt with hate because of senseless massive overhealing. Oh and this was without dropping tank stance...if he dropped it the AST would definitely have hate.

Tanks fault? Hell no.

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Originally Posted by GMERC

It's also largely irrelevant, because it's happening in catered runs. A lot of people play vastly below a certain competency threshold (I would argue I have plenty of room to improve myself), but fflogs percentile is not how to guage expected ordinary performance.

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Oh, I know the top are usually catered (I do say usually, because there are some 99th percentile parses that aren't). But its still a decent gauge of relative ability, especially on A9S with its tens of thousands of clears. (Heck, according to SE there are 20,000 A12S clears [character based, not group] as of the beginning of this month. That's a large enough sample size to get a good idea how you are doing relative to others, even with catered parses. A9S has many more times that number of clears)

We don't cater because we have no MCH and our AST just...doesn't. AoE Balance and Arrow seems to be all he does :\

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Originally Posted by Miste

If you've seen the amount of WHM and AST I've seen overhealing like mad you wouldn't say such a thing. Also yeah like others said healers like that don't know what Shroud is or care about their hate.

I even saw an AST use Collective right at the beginning of a fight for no reason and use a Diurnal Aspected Helios since obviously the Collectives 3500 HP a tick regen on everyone wasn't enough right /sarcasm lol, MT could no longer use anything but hate combos since the AST was right on his butt with hate because of senseless massive overhealing. Oh and this was without dropping tank stance...if he dropped it the AST would definitely have hate.

Tanks fault? Hell no.

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At this point you're just dealing with trolls doing this on purpose. Not your average DFer. They can get kicked and reported for griefing

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Originally Posted by PArcher

At this point you're just dealing with trolls doing this on purpose. Not your average DFer. They can get kicked and reported for griefing

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Honestly I wish I could believe they are all just trolling, but I see healers spam and generate massive hate really often now and most WHM's I see never touch shroud. It's disheartening. I really doubt I am running into that many trolls...maybe some of them were.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

At this point you're just dealing with trolls doing this on purpose. Not your average DFer. They can get kicked and reported for griefing

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Na, I told a couple of healers to stop with aoe hots and their reply is I don't know what hots does and it heals overtime with healer when no one is bloodly taking damage.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Na, I told a couple of healers to stop with aoe hots and their reply is I don't know what hots does and it heals overtime with healer when no one is bloodly taking damage.

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Yeah, that's a troll. Especially if they have gear. If you truly believe they aren't, they're still griefing if they don't listen, and can get kicked

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Yeah, that's a troll. Especially if they have gear. If you truly believe they aren't, they're still griefing if they don't listen, and can get kicked

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Most people by now can be in full scripture gear (as long as they spent most of it into one job anyway) making them like i260 at least without even stepping into savage so it's pretty easy to have gear at this point. They won't be beyond i260 unless they do savage but i260 is still geared enough to pull high hate with overhealing and you don't actually have to know how to play healer to get scripture gear for it.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Most people by now can be in full scripture gear (as long as they spent most of it into one job anyway) making them like i260 at least without even stepping into savage so it's pretty easy to have gear at this point. They won't be beyond i260 unless they do savage but i260 is still geared enough to pull high hate with overhealing and you don't actually have to know how to play healer to get scripture gear for it.

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If you have full scripture for a role, you've played for long enough that it should be expected to know the basics of at least the jobs you play, and how to read your ability descriptions.

If you refuse to learn even the basics, especially over a long period of time, you're a troll.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

If you have full scripture for a role, you've played for long enough that it should be expected to know the basics of at least the jobs you play, and how to read your ability descriptions.

If you refuse to learn even the basics, especially over a long period of time, you're a troll.

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most ppl don't even know whats the little bar beneath their job symbol, espically healer that don't realize how much aggro aoe hots are pulling.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

If you have full scripture for a role, you've played for long enough that it should be expected to know the basics of at least the jobs you play, and how to read your ability descriptions.

If you refuse to learn even the basics, especially over a long period of time, you're a troll.

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I dislike when people put zero effort as well, but I assure you no matter how much we wish it they aren't all trolls. They just don't know how to play and/or don't care. Trolls are usually people who know how to play but intentionally don't do things right in order to mess with others to get attention or a negative reaction.

You can easily be a full scripture and i260 relic weapon healer and be unaware of some basics (like hate generation or how to even see how much hate they are pulling) and how to play it well. Scripture is just too easily obtained.

Yeah, I'm done. Feast rage has worn off

But I will say, making excuses for bad players instead of educating them or kicking the trolls is not a good way to improve yourself or others.

I have no aggro issues even on my i253 tank alt; all I can see from this conversation is that I'm doing something right that lets me hold aggro even in DPS stance without issues if I try. Or I've gotten really lucky over the past 13 weeks of Alex normal on two characters and never seen trolls this bad. IDK.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I dislike when people put zero effort as well, but I assure you no matter how much we wish it they aren't all trolls. They just don't know how to play and/or don't care. Trolls are usually people who know how to play but intentionally don't do things right in order to mess with others to get attention or a negative reaction.

You can easily be a full scripture and i260 relic weapon healer and be unaware of some basics (like hate generation or how to even see how much hate they are pulling) and how to play it well. Scripture is just too easily obtained.

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The problem is, right now, full scripture on one role is a 13-15 week investment (I'm too tired to do the maths). If you haven't learned the basics over 3+ months of capping, you're really not trying. And that's a form of trolling in gaming online.

On the rare occasions I tank I stay in tank stance 100% of the time since it's not a role I'm confident in.
Luckily for the DF population I generally only tank in full groups of friends so I won't be there slowing your runs down.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

The problem is, right now, full scripture on one role is a 13-15 week investment (I'm too tired to do the maths). If you haven't learned the basics over 3+ months of capping, you're really not trying. And that's a form of trolling in gaming online.

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I think the definition I know of the word "trolling" and the one you use is very different. You seem to be using it as a person who plays badly no matter what is always a troll, but I always knew "trolling" as someone who purposefully does things with malicious intent in order to annoy others or cause arguments. I don't believe all unskilled players are doing it on purpose but I guess you don't agree and since your definition of the word is very different from mine I guess just leave it at that since we won't ever understand each other.

Also I never said I am excusing bad play or not educating. I mentor all the time and I always help out. Some do not want to be taught, those may be trolls as you say, but some of the players doing things wrong aren't always doing it purposefully and even if they have a lot of gear some people learn really slowly or need help from others to learn. I mean if all of us humans could learn on our own completely self sufficient then why do we have schools to help us learn?

Also you could do most of the content on a DPS or tank job but still use scripture on healer. So it doesn't mean you had to play healer for months since you can get scripture on any role and then use it for any role. Also expert dungeons being the main source of scripture...well they aren't exactly a good test of skill are they...we over gear them so fast that they are faceroll easy.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

I expect tank to pull 1k+ dps

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Your expectations are WAY too high for Duty Finder. You may want to lower them, or you will just continue to be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

u can recover ur tp during downtime

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If said fight offers downtime. Or if you have support DPS to help you out. And since you're talking about Alexander, not a lot of the fights have "downtime", save for A8N, and A12N (can't remember Gordias so, those fights may have downtime, too).

And, with DF, you can't guarantee you'll be lucky enough to get a BRD or MCH. And it will take even MORE luck to get one that knows how to sing/promote their turret.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

This actually goes back to the party.
DPs and healers have abilities to reduce their aggro generation. It helps tanks a lot, but sadly you won't find people using them regularly in DF because they don't think they are necessary.

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^ This. Case in point, perfect example last night in A9N. BLM with 5-6 pieces of 270 gear, fully melded, severely outgearing the MT in the party, complained about MT not holding hate when they did absolutely nothing to control their own aggro (never once saw Quelling go off). Healers in A12N that overheal, and don't manage their hate, and then complain when they rip Alexander Prime off the MT and get slaughtered. People don't feel the need to manage their own hate, and seem to equate using skills like Quelling Strikes as more of a DPS reduction rather than enmity reduction.



Sorry, OP. If I don't know the healers, I am NOT going to drop my tank stance; I'd rather have that padding. I only drop mine if I am with healers I know will keep me up, or if I notice that the PUG healer I have is actually competent.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Sorry, OP. If I don't know the healers, I am NOT going to drop my tank stance; I'd rather have that padding. I only drop mine if I am with healers I know will keep me up, or if I notice that the PUG healer I have is actually competent.

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Just to add to this point (after farming a12n multiple times every week for a single freaking drop) I'm pretty confident in my ability to MT it as DRK/PLD, but I still keep tank stance up just because of the mitigation. Yeah, I know. using tank stance for more than the emnity boost. blasphemy... BUT My survival means much more than the damage I'm doing:
Role > Mechanics > Personal DPS

I mean, just numerically, as a DRK, I take a huge risk dropping grit. taking a Punishing Heat raw w/Grit is a 18-20k hit. 2/3rds of my HP gone. Let's take that hit without Grit... or cooldowns. 20k +20%? so that's 24k out of my ~30-31k HP pool. I have 6-7k hp to survive a mega holy, an auto, and/or maybe a divine spear before the healers -maybe- noticing before i flop over. I can't be relying on living dead for every Punishing heat. But apparently I have to take that risk because I need to do my DPS!

Then again, If I drop grit for "muh damage" and only have say... shadowskin available, that'll be.... still 18-20k damage since shadowskin and grit are... kinda the same mitigation? Now, I can also put up grit before Punishing Heat, sure. But uh... pretty sure it's well known and well documented how MP friendly actually stance dancing is for DRK, right? Grit is very cheap to use as a CD, clearly. And don't get me started about stacking CD's to compensate. DRK has 1 CD lined up for every punishing heat(Shadowskin, DA+DM, and shadow wall). if I stack them for 1, then I AM going to eat 1 raw later (18-24k damage right there). that's NOT a good trade-off. Totally something every healer ever is prepared for without communication, eh?

PLD is even worse in that regard. I mean. I'm alot more free to stance dance for Punishing Heat, but it also is magical damage and ignores blocking. That means PLD doesn't have enough cooldowns and WILL eat a Punishing Heat raw. Punishing Heat laughs at sheltron.
I'm not sure how often PLD will eat a raw PH though, so if it's 1 then they have HG...

All in all I've found that if I drop Grit OR ShO, at all in a12, it REQUIRES the healers to keep me AT LEAST at 21k HP... 100% of the time. and thats just to take the initial hit! if it's the rotation when alex folows up punishing heat with a divine spear? yeah. I'm dead. even mitigated, that combo is like 13K+9k, pretty sure that specific combo is lethal if taken raw.

I have to ask myself. is my DPS worth a wipe? If I die because of a raw Punishing Heat, how much DPS can I do with Weakness?



Just because the highest possible ability can be achieved by others doesn't mean that I can, should, or will, submit to the expectation to achieve that ability.

as dark knight u also have delirium, u can DA + DM the first Punishing Heat and it would only do 13k damage, and remember DM is on short CD so u can alternate between that and shadowskin or shadow wall. as for paladin they have ramparts, sentinel and dividene veil, and by than ur ramparts should be up again.

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Originally Posted by Miste

If you've seen the amount of WHM and AST I've seen overhealing like mad you wouldn't say such a thing. Also yeah like others said healers like that don't know what Shroud is or care about their hate.

I even saw an AST use Collective right at the beginning of a fight for no reason and use a Diurnal Aspected Helios since obviously the Collectives 3500 HP a tick regen on everyone wasn't enough right /sarcasm lol, MT could no longer use anything but hate combos since the AST was right on his butt with hate because of senseless massive overhealing. Oh and this was without dropping tank stance...if he dropped it the AST would definitely have hate.

Tanks fault? Hell no.

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Agreed. Over healing generates serious hate. I don't care how good of a tank you are, I can easily steal hate if I wanted spamming AoE heals on a topped party, or even topped tank and essentially kill myself and force a wipe. The really good tanks can remain competitive, but it is so difficult and makes them work so much harder. Even if you still can maintain hate and wear your tank badge high and proud, you shouldn't have to work that hard. DF is hard, yes. But it should not be THAT hard.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

as dark knight u also have delirium, u can DA + DM the first Punishing Heat and it would only do 13k damage, and remember DM is on short CD so u can alternate between that and shadowskin or shadow wall. as for paladin they have ramparts, sentinel and dividene veil, and by than ur ramparts should be up again.

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Delirium is baseline and part of the DPS combo. you must maintain it 100% of the time regardless of MT in tank stance, and especially so in the "my DPS matters" arguement. kinda reaching on that one. the numbers i've seen and been hit by are with delirium active. plus 10%int drop doesnt mean 10% reduced magic damage. This is the same reason Foresight isnt the same thing as rampart or shadowskin.

DA+DM I already brought up and explained. DA+DM is WHY DRK has a cooldown for every Punishing Heat... IF shadowskin/wall/DA+DM are all staggered for it.

Divine Veil on PLD isn't a self cooldown. Why would you bring it up? Veil doesn't give yourself a bubble. That's not how it works. Thus, it is another useless cooldown against Punishing Heat.
between JUST rampart and sentinel, there's a gap. Alex WILL get a raw Punishing Heat off on PLD. 1 can be covered by Hallowed. What I don't know is if there's more than 1 gap before enrage. HG may or may not apply. but it can cover... 1. just 1. So, while useful, HG cant be "cycled"

Low damage tank + WHM that spams Medica2 to rip hate??!

THAT'S ME!!

muaha lol.

As a rule, whenever I go into a DF my expectations are that players equal the requirements of their role.

I expect a tank to hold agro and use mitigation.

I expect a healer to make sure no one dies to incoming damage and remove any debuffs that will effect their performance.

I expect dps to provide decent damage on the boss while handling their basic mechanics and avoiding AoEs.

If my group does that I am content because like in any random draw you have no idea what hand your going to end up with. Those basic requirements will generally mean a smooth run. Anything on top of that is a bonus. I prefer a player to play it overly safe and perform their role correctly than a player to try maxing out their dps and doing a half assed job of their actual role.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Divine Veil on PLD isn't a self cooldown. Why would you bring it up?

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Think of it this way that 10% of ur hp gets turn into shield still act as a mitigation.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Think of it this way that 10% of ur hp gets turn into shield still act as a mitigation.

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For the party, not for the PLD who use it. So it doesn't work like an addition to your eHP and is useless to mitgate a tankbuster or focused attack on the PLD who used it.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

For the party, not for the PLD who use it

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Its an aoe for the entire party within 15y, and it also wouldn't hurt to go back to shield oath for a single tank buster b4 going back to sword.

And this thread is a prime example of why I personally won't sign up to DF as a tank and why so many people are against parser's, Who cares who's pulling what if you are getting through the content. I personally think people who modify their clients via any sort should get banned like SE used to.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

And this thread is a prime example of why I personally won't sign up to DF as a tank and why so many people are against parser's, Who cares who's pulling what if you are getting through the content. I personally think people who modify their clients via any sort should get banned like SE used to.

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And this is why u get so many terrible player in df

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

And this is why u get so many terrible player in df

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depends what your expectations and standards are.
And the simple truth is, not everyone plays the game to be #1 on some parser list.

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

depends what your expectations and standards are.
And the simple truth is, not everyone plays the game to be #1 on some parser list.

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Not expecting to be #1, but atleast try to self improve

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

Not expecting to be #1, but atleast try to self improve

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Why?
The party cleared the instance/objective in whatever setup they used.
Why is it so important to improve?

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Originally Posted by NekoNova

Why?
The party cleared the instance/objective in whatever setup they used.
Why is it so important to improve?

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Since ur mist likely have to run normal mode multiple time, the minutes and seconds can really start to pile up.

I understand what OP is trying to say, but, you need to start from bad DPS, as example, 400 DPS Bard in 250 average ilvl is unnaceptable (no deaths). (This was a real example, that my friend told me not too long ago, he was furious)
At least, as i know, for top players parsers help greatly to identify those guys.

On the case: i found myself running a lot without tank stance, no problems there if you also know your teammates (aka look at them before the start).

Example: If you have a ilvl 270 BLM in your party, you better pull tank stance ON almost all the time if you're undergeared tank.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

And this thread is a prime example of why I personally won't sign up to DF as a tank and why so many people are against parser's, Who cares who's pulling what if you are getting through the content. I personally think people who modify their clients via any sort should get banned like SE used to.

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Parsers does not modify your client, they only read memory, afaik. This is not bannable.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

700 dps for a tank is bad?
In my entire time with df/pf I have only a single time seen a tank that did more (800, in Sophia EX), usually I'm more than satisfied when tanks reach 400 dps.
I'm amazed by your standards :O

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Elitists happen.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

But your dps does down over time, especially downtime. Sure you gain tp, but you will already have lower dps. so saying this doesnt solve the problem.

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It is possible to have 1300 dps or more in all of the alex normals only a9 will bring you into problems with your tp since you don't have a downtime.

And SundayTrash if you go as a tank with randoms and you never die, you can consider you lucky. I start most of the time as a dps in there and do 1 or 2 runs and switch on tank because tanks annoy me, but its rare for me to be able to drop the tank stance because the healers are most of the time not able to keep me alive. And yes i know how to play my tanks.

The point is that you can't expect high dps numbers of DF players in general since you will always have players who don't play their classes like you or i do. If i want a tank in DF who deals more dps than 700 i have to do it myself but that doesn't change the problem that i'll find healers who can't heal me or that i'll find dps who deal less dps then me. So nothing will really change except that the stuff will be tanked properly and that i do more dps than the actual dps if the healers are ok.