[DEV REQUEST] Please make the Hellhound Obtainable By More than Just the Top 100 PVP

SE, if you do with this mount what you did with the minion, the next time you try to do a livestream PvP event and sit there waiting forever for any queues, or asking people to queue, or wondering why th content seems unpopular. . .

THIS IS WHY.

I got in the ranking today and I'm a terrible DRK (PvP), so... you still have hope.
The only reason why I'm doing PvP since i think it's broken and unbalanced in MANY ways, thus not fun, it's because of the mount, which is the only thing actually being used to promote the Ranked matches.

So... no.
Keep it PvP exclusive, please.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

SE, if you do with this mount what you did with the minion, the next time you try to do a livestream PvP event and sit there waiting forever for any queues, or asking people to queue, or wondering why th content seems unpopular. . .

THIS IS WHY.

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No amount of rewards will force people to do PvP if it's not fun.

Your mileage may vary. I'm almost capped on Scripture tomes for the week already, largely from 8v8 Feast matches I HIGHLY enjoyed last night.

PvP may not be for everyone, sure. But why do the rewards have to be? It certainly doesn't work the other way around. I can't use Wolf Marks to get upgrade items for Shire gear, or exchange them for scrips or MGP, or even a primal mount, old or new. But that's fair, right?

That's cool, I guess since I actually like PvP and play it, I get no say. Let the people who arbitrarily hold negative opinions on it speak for those who do participate as the content is intended and actually enjoy it.

PvP is actually very profitable for PvE currency. I earned maybe 20 millions selling Blood for Blood and Starved rolls with a lot of times being the only seller on marketboard, and sold a few Fenrir pups for 3m+ each. And before that for months I desynthed i70 pvp jewelry into Battlecraft IIIs. And I have all PvP mounts and gear sets except ranked. But does that make PvP with a bloat of 40 PvE skills+5/6 PvP skills any more fun, even worse with a controller? Is delayed network code when you die 2 seconds after popping Hallowed Ground or Benediction fun? Certianly not. How about that nonsense GC restriction in Frontlines which forces us to wait more for no reason? And do I need to mention how inbalanced are jobs there. There are many issues in FFXIV PvP since 2.1, many were addressed, but core problems, which make PvP here not fun as in other MMOs, are stillt here.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

Well... you should of all just gotten into this thing when it first started. That is the way all achievement awards for PvP work.

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Guide the Maelstrom/Order of the Twin Adder/Immortal Flames to 100 Frontline victories. Reward: Storm/Serpent/Flame Warsteed Horn.
Guide any of the three Grand Companies to a total of 200 Frontline victories. Reward: Logistics System Identification Key.
Guide any of the three Grand Companies to a total of 100 Seal Rock campaign victories. Reward: Field Commander's Coat (Rest of the set from the previous achievements).
Guide any of the three Grand Companies to a total of 100 Fields of Glory victories. Reward: Aerodynamics System Identification Key.
Triumph in 200 matches at the Feast. Reward: Gloria Ignition Key

Notice a pattern here? This is the way achievement awards for PvP have been working for a long time.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

SE, if you do with this mount what you did with the minion, the next time you try to do a livestream PvP event and sit there waiting forever for any queues, or asking people to queue, or wondering why th content seems unpopular. . .

THIS IS WHY.

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First of all, we don't know what they'll do with the minion, because no one knows what achievement it'll be tied to. Second of all, the side that disagrees with the way this mount reward is being handles does come up with suggestions that aren't just "throw it onto the Wolf Marks vendor". In my case, that's a suggestion of two versions of the same mount. One with armor, and one without. It'll still be pretty clear which player has obtained the PvP version. As an added bonus, this'll also give SE more incentive to create mount rewards more often, since it'd be something made for both PvE and PvP, and thus have more people going for them.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I'd like to suggest, if it's not already in progress like the minion, that the mount be made available to more than just the top 100 PVP'ers. Even the ADS mount and the Warhorse are tied to number of overall wins in their various campaigns respectively -- not how high you rank on the ladder. If you want to tie it to PVP, that's fine - but let it follow a similar path as the other two mounts -- something a bit more attainable.

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I actually made a thread about this a while back with multiple suggestions on how we the average player - who doesn't have time to keep up in the top 100's could potentially get the mount and let me tell you.. Had a lot of PvP'ers fighting me over it.
To the Devs: PvP Reward Ideas. [Feast Season Rewards]

Replacing the minion is at least somewhat understandable (because 95% of people want the mount anyway), although it got replaced by a pretty lame reward. Replacing the mount.. They obviously couldn't make a good reward by 3.55 for the minion. They definitely won't be able to make a good reward for the mount either, and that will really tick off all the current PvP players SE has currently gained their trust in after a really bad start to PvP.

That is why they're PvPing in the first place.

If SE can replace it with something meaningful and awesome, great. But we all know if they do, PvE players will just complain about wanting that next. SE can't really win, although they have in some sense because more players have been getting into PvP because of these rewards.

No player in this game is going to quit playing because the Hellhound is PvP exclusive, but the top/dedicated PvP players would sooner quit if their rewards and efforts are made pointless again. For the third time.

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Originally Posted by Miste

They should just make it so the reward stays for every season as long as you place top 100 you can get it in any season.

They just need to change it to giving you a special token that you turn in for the mount so when they add more mounts you can pick which mount you want to exchange your top 100 placement token for.

This way you can get any of the mounts in any season, but you can only pick one mount reward per season. You still need to do the work of getting in top 100 but the mount is still obtainable anytime in the future and doesn't have such a limited time span to obtain.

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yeaaah i have been suggesting this exact same thing for the rewards in almost every thread like this. and imma say you are wasting your time. the PvP community doesnt want this at all it seems cuz its still "devaluing" their "hard earned" prizes.

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Originally Posted by Rhyllis

That is why they\\'re PvPing in the first place.

If SE can replace it with something meaningful and awesome, great. But we all know if they do, PvE players will just complain about wanting that next. SE can\\'t really win, although they have in some sense because more players have been getting into PvP because of these rewards.

No player in this game is going to quit playing because the Hellhound is PvP exclusive, but the top/dedicated PvP players would sooner quit if their rewards and efforts are made pointless again. For the third time.

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wow i should quite raiding. cuz its useless cuz everyone can get a cool ass mount and some nice gear and all that jazz when the new raid teir is out by just using brute force.

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Originally Posted by NargaHuntress

wow i should quite raiding. cuz its useless cuz everyone can get a cool ass mount and some nice gear and all that jazz when the new raid teir is out by just using brute force.

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You say that as if people don't actually think that pve gear/glamour being devalued isn't a problem too. Because it is. I'm still of the opinion that allowing people to unsync second coil savage was a huge mistake, and I still think that raiders should get exclusive rewards of some kind for early clears, or getting a clear during a certain time period. People can have the glamour gear later once echo is added or if they want to unsync it, but leave the titles and special stuff alone.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

You say that as if people don't actually think that pve gear/glamour being devalued isn't a problem too. Because it is. I'm still of the opinion that allowing people to unsync second coil savage was a huge mistake, and I still think that raiders should get exclusive rewards of some kind for early clears, or getting a clear during a certain time period. People can have the glamour gear later once echo is added or if they want to unsync it, but leave the titles and special stuff alone.

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should make a thread about.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Guide the Maelstrom/Order of the Twin Adder/Immortal Flames to 100 Frontline victories. Reward: Storm/Serpent/Flame Warsteed Horn.
Guide any of the three Grand Companies to a total of 200 Frontline victories. Reward: Logistics System Identification Key.
Guide any of the three Grand Companies to a total of 100 Seal Rock campaign victories. Reward: Field Commander's Coat (Rest of the set from the previous achievements).
Guide any of the three Grand Companies to a total of 100 Fields of Glory victories. Reward: Aerodynamics System Identification Key.
Triumph in 200 matches at the Feast. Reward: Gloria Ignition Key

Notice a pattern here? This is the way achievement awards for PvP have been working for a long time.

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Now tell me a story... How are those queues for Frontline going now a days. Now unless you've gotten a set of 23 friends to win trade. Good luck getting them now.

ACTUALLY, while slower due to the Feast season still going, frontlines queues are still active, if not moreso now for the older modes thanks to Wonderous Tails.

Those of us who PvP regularly communicate with each other and have even made active efforts to spark queues for modes we wanted to play at times. Instead of trying to make a flat point about PvP queue times, why not get involved with the PvPers on your server if there are any? You'll be amazed what you can make happen just by simply trying.

Also, do not insult those of us who enjoy PvP by labeling us all as wintraders. Yes, we know there are some that do it, and plenty of people have followed through in reporting and self-policing our community. We do the leg work, but it's ultimately out of our hands to see any proper handling of the situation done.

Before you try to speak for us, at least try to understand us.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Also, do not insult those of us who enjoy PvP by labeling us all as wintraders. Yes, we know there are some that do it, and plenty of people have followed through in reporting and self-policing our community. We do the leg work, but it's ultimately out of our hands to see any proper handling of the situation done.

Before you try to speak for us, at least try to understand us.

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I dont think they was saying that you or anyone else wintrades. i think they was trying to point out how dead most of those modes are. so dead that ud need friends in to play with you just to even try. i mean really.

aslo wolves den titles jesus man yeah unless yal make some tourny for that aint nobody getting those titles mate.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Guide the Maelstrom/Order of the Twin Adder/Immortal Flames to 100 Frontline victories. Reward: Storm/Serpent/Flame Warsteed Horn.
Guide any of the three Grand Companies to a total of 200 Frontline victories. Reward: Logistics System Identification Key.
Guide any of the three Grand Companies to a total of 100 Seal Rock campaign victories. Reward: Field Commander's Coat (Rest of the set from the previous achievements).
Guide any of the three Grand Companies to a total of 100 Fields of Glory victories. Reward: Aerodynamics System Identification Key.
Triumph in 200 matches at the Feast. Reward: Gloria Ignition Key

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I'm gonna correcting the one I bold. While other can sum up by 3 GC, only this guide one GC to 200 victories. If you change GC you need surpass the victories you gain from your old most victories GC to make it increased again.

(I was about to complain this achievement but meh)

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

SE, if you do with this mount what you did with the minion, the next time you try to do a livestream PvP event and sit there waiting forever for any queues, or asking people to queue, or wondering why th content seems unpopular. . .

THIS IS WHY.

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Actually, it's not. PvP was practically dead for months during the last season and queues have already slowed to a crawl barring very specific times. You will never incentivize non-PvP oriented people with an exclusive mount, especially when there isn't any rank depreciation. What actually causes PvP to be so unpopular?

1. Ability bloat.
2. Very little incentives for non-PvPers
3. Putting a new mount/minion on the latest mode or map release; effectively destroying the previous mode or map's popularity
4. Grand Company restrictions

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Your mileage may vary. I'm almost capped on Scripture tomes for the week already, largely from 8v8 Feast matches I HIGHLY enjoyed last night.

PvP may not be for everyone, sure. But why do the rewards have to be? It certainly doesn't work the other way around. I can't use Wolf Marks to get upgrade items for Shire gear, or exchange them for scrips or MGP, or even a primal mount, old or new. But that's fair, right?

That's cool, I guess since I actually like PvP and play it, I get no say. Let the people who arbitrarily hold negative opinions on it speak for those who do participate as the content is intended and actually enjoy it.

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See, this is where a lost opportunity exists. Maybe exchanging Wolf Marks for tomes might be a tad much, though I wouldn't be opposed to the idea, but making all the rewards buy-able would be a far better incentive. Case in point, if they had put all the FF character glamour as PvP items we could buy with Wolf Marks in lieu of veteran rewards. That might be a decent incentive. So here's a thought. Let Wolf Marks upgrade glamour into decently stated gear and make the Hellhound like Fenrir. Basically, do exactly what Overwatch did. None of the base rewards are exclusive. You only have to work towards them.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

You say that as if people don't actually think that pve gear/glamour being devalued isn't a problem too. Because it is. I'm still of the opinion that allowing people to unsync second coil savage was a huge mistake, and I still think that raiders should get exclusive rewards of some kind for early clears, or getting a clear during a certain time period. People can have the glamour gear later once echo is added or if they want to unsync it, but leave the titles and special stuff alone.

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I disagree on making them exclusive, but I do think ponies, titles and whatnot should require you to do that content synced. It does feel silly how we can just go murder Titan EX now at level 60. I'd even be perfectly fine with them making it ilvl restricted: i.e. Thordon EX released when the ilvl was 190-210. You can only obtain the title and mount by beating him between that ilvl. They will never do it though.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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This is spot on. According to minion and mount statistic websites the airship mount is the 4th to last on # owned list. Only the Black Pegasus (potd mount), A12S mount, and mentor roulette mounts have less owners. Besides the mentor mount the other two are newer mounts so those are bound to pass up the airship mount in time. I personally don't know another player that owns it, even the people that helped me with 8v8 feast queues when I was going after mine didn't bother.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

SE, if you do with this mount what you did with the minion, the next time you try to do a livestream PvP event and sit there waiting forever for any queues, or asking people to queue, or wondering why th content seems unpopular. . .

THIS IS WHY.

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As another poster pointed out another reason might be how so damn toxic some PvPers can be to new players who would like to PvP even worse than PvE players are to newbies, it's no wonder the PvP is so unpopular.

Well it looks like they're finally removing the GC restriction (yay!) and giving us a new map for Feast so that might spur the PVP queues for a little while. I stand by my original point though, that PVP top 100 should get something nicer than earrings, and that the mount should be available in a different, more attainable way - purchasable by wolf marks, # of wins, or what have you.

I feel somewhat obligated to post here since my thread was linked in the OP.

I am a very involved PvPer. It's not my main focus in this game, but I do like it a lot and care a great deal about it. So I'll say this...

Take the mount and the minion. I don't really care.

However, we do need something decent in return. I'm very tired of hearing the same people whine over and over about exclusive rewards, when the maximum amount of effort the put into it are the 20 or so games they play and get absolutely destroyed. If you suck at something, you do not deserve the same rewards as those that don't suck.

Im like: People didnt cry out when we PvPers got exclusive Glamour but when it comes to Pets and mounts everyone is yelling at SE "OMG PLS WE WANT DIS TOO!!!"

Its like im Asking for the a12 savage mount to be obtainable by farming the normal Alexander Raids.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Its like im Asking for the a12 savage mount to be obtainable by farming the normal Alexander Raids.

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Isn't that like a guaranteed drop from the third chest on clearing A12S and will become rather easy to obtain once it can be unsync'd in Stormblood...?

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Originally Posted by Araxes

Its like im Asking for the a12 savage mount to be obtainable by farming the normal Alexander Raids.

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You cant really compare them because you can farm A12 unsynch in 4.0 and later and still get the mount. You could only compare them if the A12 savage mount would only be for the first 100 that get the chest and only in a certain time. Yet you will always have the chance to get that mount, you just need to wait long enough to clear it unsynch. If you did not manage to get into the TOP100 in this season you will probably never get the mount.

Can you imagine how bad this would be, to train the raid for months, finally able to clear it and one person in your group wont get the mount because he/she is the 101th player that got the chest. There are already quite some mounts behind PVP that depending on the amount of players might be impossible to get or are still rare. But at least people can still try to get them.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Isn't that like a guaranteed drop from the third chest on clearing A12S and will become rather easy to obtain once it can be unsync'd in Stormblood...?

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So why not make the pvp minion/mount available through stormblood pvp content in the distant future? (like outdated minions and furnishings got put into Potd and aquapolis). There is no reason for people who didn't work for it to have the rewards right now, I'm actually disgusted that they have decided to allow people to obtain the minion another way before the season even ends.

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

As another poster pointed out another reason might be how so damn toxic some PvPers can be to new players who would like to PvP even worse than PvE players are to newbies, it's no wonder the PvP is so unpopular.

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There are some bad apples, yes. But how is that any different from how people would react to players who join farm parties for content they haven't cleared, or someone who joins a duty finder instance and is severely undergeared for said content? Or perhaps someone who is offered helpful advice from a more experienced player and aggressively and defiantly rejects the advice? Mind you, these are all scenarios I've encountered in both, so while it doesn't help, it's certainly not the big reason why PvP is unpopular.

If I may be so bold to say it, many hate it because they don't understand it, don't want to make the effort (as opposed to say, roulettes which you can half sleep through these days), aren't competitive, or make wrongful assumptions of it based entirely on their experiences in completely different games. PvP is unpopular because many simply don't WANT to try it or like it.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

If I may be so bold to say it, many hate it because they don't understand it, don't want to make the effort (as opposed to say, roulettes which you can half sleep through these days), aren't competitive, or make wrongful assumptions of it based entirely on their experiences in completely different games. PvP is unpopular because many simply don't WANT to try it or like it.

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There is also a very firm lack of reason to PvP other than just to PvP if you feel you can't get into the Top 100. The best non-ranked stuff you can get from PvP is i205, a minion and a few music scrolls. There is very little that you can get from pvp if you are /not good/ that you can't get easier from other content.

This is an issue I brought up, actually in support of the matter at hand. PvP content is offered sporadically, and often with so few rewards, which is why the idea of having a new, unique reward reduced to an achievement award just doesn't sit well with most of us. Our gear has a useless stat on it, so useless in fact, that SE is even considering removing it entirely. Materia slots for materia bonuses that are ignored in the actual content. Item levels at least 2 patches behind, so it's not even useful outside of PvP, and is thus glamour gear purchased with a special currency that we cap then can do nothing with. I can't speak for everyone else, but I actually like PvP. I work a job with hours that just don't work well with trying to get in and stay in the top 100, but I still enjoy competing. And that's part of it: There are people asking for a competition award who simply don't want to compete. How is this possibly okay?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

So why not make the pvp minion/mount available through stormblood pvp content in the distant future?

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Do you think there would be as many people complaining if SE went:
"All Season rewards will be made available for Wolf Marks after one year of the season's end." ?

Probably not by the people who want the Minions/Mounts/Glamour - that's just shelf life. People who collect mounts or minions and can't beat Savage will just wait until unsynced comes along, so no biggie waiting for that either. The outrage would come from the PvPers who think:

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Originally Posted by FreeKingStefan

However, we do need something decent in return.

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That is false by the way: The sentence should read "We WANT something decent...", because what PvP needs is definitely not hardcore gratification, it's a healthy playerbase, and badly. In the short term, rewards you put up need to serve as a band-aid to get people who would normally not play PvP into it, not to reward people who live and breathe it, so forget everything and anything "skill based" as well as everything that requires loads of dedication. In the long term, PvP gameplay needs to be reassessed to make reward bribery less necessary. That's what "needs" to happen. But that's not what the PvP community "wants" to happen, especially not hardcores themselves.

I both agree and disagree with your statement.

An analogy: SE offers a prize to people that climb a mountain. The first 10 get something extra for being the ones to rise above the rest. Now though, as people are climbing, they say "we will now offer the prize for anyone who walks the mountain trail". . . Sure, some people will still climb, for the love of climbing, or even simply seeing their hard work through. But really, who's gonna bother climbing the mountain for the prize if walking the trail will award you the same thing?

It's not that dedicated PvPers want something to lord over others, we want to know that our efforts aren't simply underappreciated. And by and large, we've gone plenty underappreciated til now.

Pvp players deserve this special prize. work for it like the rest of us. there is plenty of time. Start now! :D

Just no. If you want the mount, start to PvP.

I don't pvp, but I'm not against the idea of exclusive rewards.

Oh another thread made by people who will probably never even use the mount.

They'll use it once and then they'll gravitate back to whatever was their go to previously.

Why do I say this? Because people who just want stuff for free end up not caring about it once it is free. It'll literally end up in their mount inventory never used. At least to PVPers there will be a reason to use it. To be proud of riding it. If SE actually caves in to these whiners all that it will accomplish is more mounts that no one cares about because EVERYONE has them. You will never see em and for obvious reasons.

SE please don't cave again.

There's a bunch of content you can do for easy mounts and minions, go do those instead. You want a cool reward? Work towards it. If you don't get it? Tough. Plenty of players have missed out on stuff in the past (and new players will never even be able to complete a collection already). None of them are dying, world keeps on spinning, everything will be okay.

Let good players be rewarded for good play. There's already a bunch of grindy content for people to do, there's always a goal to work toward if you're a casual player. Don't take stuff away from us, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Because you seem to have a hard time reading, I'll repeat my suggestion.

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You don't seem to get it do you? If you give pvper's something cooler then people will still whine cause they can't have it. That was part of the huge crying in the minion thread about how these 'collectors' couldn't hope to be top 10 in both solo and party Feast.

You can't catch em all if you make a noob version and a pro version of a minion or mount because noobs can't get the pro version.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Do you think there would be as many people complaining if SE went:
"All Season rewards will be made available for Wolf Marks after one year of the season's end." ?

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So the solution to that is simple. SE puts their foot down and says "Let us do this our way", and doesn't tell anyone that they will be available another way later down the line (like how people weren't told that the hunting hawk would be obtainable another way after the diadem died). People need to recognise that nothing obtained within the game (promotions and legacy aside) is exclusive. SE has a habit of recycling content, whether it be replica coil gear to aquapolis and Potd drops, it always comes back around.

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

But does that make PvP with a bloat of 40 PvE skills+5/6 PvP skills any more fun, even worse with a controller? Is delayed network code when you die 2 seconds after popping Hallowed Ground or Benediction fun? Certianly not. How about that nonsense GC restriction in Frontlines which forces us to wait more for no reason? And do I need to mention how inbalanced are jobs there.

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- PvP isn't bad on controller, and you have more than enough slots to allocate all of your abilities including the PvP ones
- Dying after popping Hallowed Ground and Benediction is not exclusive to PvP, it happens in PvE as well.
- Very rarily do games ever have complete balance amongst characters/classes. The balance in FFXIV is very close and not as inbalance as you are trying to make it out to be. Also, inbalances aren't exclusive to PvP.

A lot of your argument is with the game itself, not PvP.

What content in this game is actually alive? And why are they alive?

- Raid until clear, then once a week for an hour or two. (Award Gear/Script and for parsing fflogs)
- New Dungeons, because they're new (Award Lore/Script)
- Wondrous Tails Objectives (Chance at Awards)
- Roulettes, old dungeons get some participation (Gives Greater Rewards than normally running a dungeon)
- 24 man raids (Awards Gear/Lore/Script/Minions/CardsQuest Items/etc.)
- Current Normal Raid Tier (Awards Lore/Script/Minion/Cards/Gear)
- Other stuff that gives Rewards

All in all, do people honestly believe this content would be alive if there were no incentives to do them?

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Originally Posted by Aviars

They'll use it once and then they'll gravitate back to whatever was their go to previously.

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Irrelevant, as there's gonna be rank 100 PvPers who will do same.

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Originally Posted by Aviars

Why do I say this? Because people who just want stuff for free end up not caring about it once it is free. It'll literally end up in their mount inventory never used. At least to PVPers there will be a reason to use it. To be proud of riding it. If SE actually caves in to these whiners all that it will accomplish is more mounts that no one cares about because EVERYONE has them. You will never see em and for obvious reasons.

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Newsflash: There's been suggestions that'd still keep the amount of effort intact, without making the mount a joke to obtain. There are ways to make it obtainable outside being in the rank 100, without everyone having it.

In fact, if you look at the top 10 rarest mounts, it has the Aerodynamics System at #2 (100 wins in the Fields of Glory), the Gloria-class Airship at #4 (200 wins in The Feast), the Serpent Warsteed at #5, Storm Warsteed at #8, Flame Warsteed at #9 (100 Frontline wins in their respective Grand Companies), with the Logistics System (original ADS mount, 200 Frontline wins) only barely falling outside the top 10 (rank #11), but it'll likely regain its spot once A12S can be overgeared.

That's almost all the PvP mounts in the top 10, and none of them are time exclusive. You'll probably just ignore this though, since everyone obviously has those mounts!

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Originally Posted by Aviars

You don't seem to get it do you? If you give pvper's something cooler then people will still whine cause they can't have it. That was part of the huge crying in the minion thread about how these 'collectors' couldn't hope to be top 10 in both solo and party Feast.

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I understand that mentioning WoW is like mentioning the plague, but I'll use it as an example anyway. The most recent WoW expansion moved away from the unarmored/armored mounts for PvE/PvP (respectively), and there were a lot of complaints about it. They changed it back to unarmored/armored mounts and both sides were happy about it.